Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

First topic message reminder :

"He returned to hdq and put his bike away. He gave a statement and found out from the officer who had also taken a statement from Mr Truly that the man he accosted on the second floor of the TSBD was Oswald."

The officer who took statements from Baker & Truly was Marvin Johnson. However, since Truly's statement is dated 23/11, he could not have informed Baker of what Truly had said until after that date.

In his own UNDATED statement, this is what Johnson had said:

After determining the origin of the shots, he jumped from his motor and ran into the building. He found a man who said he was the building manager. Officer Baker and the building manager then went to a stairway and started up the stairs to search the building. On the 4th floor Officer Baker apprehended a man that was walking away from the stairway on that floor. Officer Baker started to search the man, but the building manager stated that the man was an employee of the company and was known to him. Officer Baker released the man and continued his search of the building. Officer Baker later identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he had seen on the 4th floor of the Texas School Book Depository."

At the end of his statement, he added,

"When Patrolman ML Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man that he stopped in the Texas School Book Depository Building, Patrolman Baker was in the Homicide Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to some Secret Service men. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, 'that is the man I stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book Depository.'"

Which contradicts his own earlier statement that Baker identified Oswald LATER i.e. some time after his statement was taken - not during.

Baker went on to testify that he had recognised Oswald while he was giving statement to Johnson.

It appears to me that Baker let out a little of the truth to the HSCA interviewer when he said that Johnson informed him that it was Oswald he had accosted on the 2nd floor.

They held off any official statement from Truly until it became clear what they could safely say.

The problem was, it was NOT Oswald Truly had vouched for on the 3rd or (probably) 4th floor, and Mrs Reid had said she had seen Oswald on the second floor with a coke. Oswald himself was saying he bought a coke from the second floor to have with his lunch down on the first floor.

That story was then given to Baker, who would never again talk about any 4th floor encounter.

The chronology then, appears to be:

Baker's statement taken on 11/22

Problems for police case identified as a result of above Baker statement

Further investigation uncovers what Reid witnessed

Reid & Truly give statements 23/11. Truly debuts new official story

Johnson gives this version to Baker who has some trouble reconciling events to fit - particularly in regard to whether or not Oswald had a coke.

See also: thread, "Oswald's two cop encounters"

Spence missed a lot of opportunities. To be fair, Bugliosi is an order of magnitude  better trial lawyer than the ordinary run of prosecutors Spence was used to clobbering while only half trying. But still, he was literally the only cross-examiner any of the JFK assassination witnesses ever faced and he clearly failed to realize the historical value of pinning them down on inconsistencies, even if they seemed irrelevant or felt like badgering to the fake jury (which was, after all, a fake jury).  I understand something like 20 hours of testimony was taken, of which only 5 or 6 hours were broadcast in the US. I bet that full transcript would make for some interesting reading.  David Von Pein has asked Bugliosi for the full trial video or transcript but its been a dry hole.  Perhaps Gary Mack could bug him on behalf of his museum (bug Bugliosi I mean, not DVP). )
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.assassination.jfk/bf3A00E86dI/Phc15PcRjEkJ

But I digress, Marrion Baker fascinates me. He strikes me as an honest man who just kept changing his story. The question isn't just,which story is true, but alsowhy would an honest man do this? 
My favorite iteration of Baker's story is the one he gave for Jim Bowles's book (just dawned on me the other day this was the same Bowles as the Dallas cop later elected Sheriff). THIS is what Spence should have cross-examined Baker about:

"The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do.
The investigator from Washington contacted me for my recollection of what happened, but I guess they weren't interested in what I said." (emphasis added)
http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles6.html

 I have always suspected that Baker was made to backtrack on his initial affidavit.  And man, I really wish Spence had that affidavit at that a phony London trial.

Poor preparation by Spence. What sort of defense lawyer doesn't read all the relevant police statements?

Or maybe he did read it, and no alarm bells rang? Whatever -- I sure as hell don't want him ever representing me.

The thing that always bugged me was that Oswald was right there in front of him when he made it out.

I've had both LNs and CTs try and get around this by assuring me that he didn't say it was the suspect now under arrest (Oswald) in the affidavit because it was not police policy or some such garbage. I'm down under - not on another planet. The lengths some have gone to to excuse Baker has been an eye-opener.

Late in life, when interviewed for First Day Evidence, Baker had a senior's moment and told the truth: he had actually seen Oswald on the 1st floor (as reported the next day based on comments made by Truly and Campbell).  

I love this from Fritz: 

Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go. 

Notice how utterly tongue-tied he becomes in discussing the location of the encounter? He THINKS it was Truly? Of course it was Truly! Who else could it have been? And how on earth could Truly, of all people, get the location wrong? Really consider what Fritz is saying here. Not only was Truly wrong, but it was THEIR OWN INVESTIGATION that nailed down the correct location! How miraculous was that? Truly apparently got it wrong and Baker was saying 3rd or 4th floor!

"Whoever fights monsters must take care not to become a monster himself, for when you look at the man, the man looks back at you" (I might have translated that wrong).

"I didn't notice the coke machine or any item in the room there, All I was looking at was the man, and he seemed to be approximately 20 feet down there from me.... On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us..."[i] ML Baker, WC testimony
[/i]
20 to 30 feet West of the elevator, wouldn't Baker be looking at the rear stairway, a soda/pop/coke machine as well as the man looking back at him?

beowulf wrote:"Whoever fights monsters must take care not to become a monster himself, for when you look at the man, the man looks back at you" (I might have translated that wrong).

"I kind of looked off to my right over there through a doorway and saw an image of a man walking away through that doorway." ML Baker 1964 CBS interview

"I didn't notice the coke machine or any item in the room there, All I was looking at was the man, and he seemed to be approximately 20 feet down there from me.... On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us... I said let's take the stairs. [And Truly} said, "Okay" and so he immediately turned around, which the stairs is just to the, would be to the, well, the west of this elevator." ML Baker, WC testimony

Once Truly and Baker turned around from the elevator and Baker looked off to his right, 20 to 30 feet west of the elevator he could see the back stairway, a soda/pop/coke machine... and (not shown in this   WC]WC photo) a man looking back at him.

I agree that Baker was, if not an always honest cop, at least not part of the plot. I can also applaud his bravery in charging into the building. On the other hand, Truly's actions are either heroic, borderline suicidal, or a necessary impulse to ensure Baker doesn't arrest the wrong guy -- which is to say -- the right guy.

Truly was overheard by DMN reporter Kent Biffle telling Fritz that he had seen Oswald on the first floor when he came in with Baker, and now Oswald was missing.

The story appeared in the DMN the next day. Campbell related this story to The NY Herald Tribune. It also appeared the next day. Meanwhile it seems some of the international press representatives were being told that Oswald had been stopped at the front door by police before being cleared to leave, and Baker was talking about an encounter on floor 3 or 4 with a man not matching Oswald's description (although of course, it would be alleged it did fit - and it did - if "fit" means both male, both under 40, both white, both dressed as workers). 

I believe all three of these sightings occurred and all were swept off the table and replaced with a "one sighting fits all" encounter.  It cured a lot of headaches...

greg parker wrote:Thanks for the clarifications. Got it now.

Speaking of dress codes... this bit of testimony to the HSCA has always intrigued me...

Mr. McKEOWN - Yes. Well, this, gentleman came out to my place. Not Mr. Butler, somebody else. I do net recall his name. 
Mr. PURDY - Was his name Porter? 
Mr. McKEOWN - Yes, it damn sure was. Jack Porter. 
Mr. PURDY - Please explain the story. 
Mr. McKEOWN - Anyway, he told me that it was a very mysterious thing. He told me, he says, do you have any work clothes like khakis, khaki pants and things? I said well, I can get some. What is the occasion? He said we want you to go to the top floor of the Gulf Building in Houston. We want you to get off two floors before you get to the top and walk up and dress like a working person. So I did.

 I'm not saying that McKeown was the sniper. I'm not saying that Jack Porter was the mastermind. This was all shortly after Castro came to power.

I am saying that those are very specific instructions about what to wear, how many floors to go up in the elevator, how many to walk up...  and whatever those instructions were supposed to be about... one possibility is that they represent a blueprint for what happened inside the TSBD. 

If this had anything to do with any possible plot against Castro, or against someone in the US dealing with Castro (bearing in mind Castro was probably not yet regarded as "enemy no 1"), then elements of that plot may have been recycled for Dallas...

 McKeown is a fascinating figure.  Whether he is a primary figure or peripheral figure in the JFK assassination is up for debate but there is much to glean from the information he provided to he HSCA.

 P.S. Good to have you here, Jim.  A *PROZAC* based research forum with relative peace and tranquility trying to make sense of matters.  Hope you're well.

 EDIT **

greg parker wrote:

beowulf wrote:"Whoever fights monsters must take care not to become a monster himself, for when you look at the man, the man looks back at you" (I might have translated that wrong).

"I kind of looked off to my right over there through a doorway and saw an image of a man walking away through that doorway." ML Baker 1964 CBS interview

"I didn't notice the coke machine or any item in the room there, All I was looking at was the man, and he seemed to be approximately 20 feet down there from me.... On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us... I said let's take the stairs. [And Truly} said, "Okay" and so he immediately turned around, which the stairs is just to the, would be to the, well, the west of this elevator." ML Baker, WC testimony

Once Truly and Baker turned around from the elevator and Baker looked off to his right, 20 to 30 feet west of the elevator he could see the back stairway, a soda/pop/coke machine... and (not shown in this   WC]WC photo) a man looking back at him.

I agree that Baker was, if not an always honest cop, at least not part of the plot. I can also applaud his bravery in charging into the building. On the other hand, Truly's actions are either heroic, borderline suicidal, or a necessary impulse to ensure Baker doesn't arrest the wrong guy -- which is to say -- the right guy.

Truly was overheard by DMN reporter Kent Biffle telling Fritz that he had seen Oswald on the first floor when he came in with Baker, and now Oswald was missing.

The story appeared in the DMN the next day. Campbell related this story to The NY Herald Tribune. It also appeared the next day. Meanwhile it seems some of the international press representatives were being told that Oswald had been stopped at the front door by police before being cleared to leave, and Baker was talking about an encounter on floor 3 or 4 with a man not matching Oswald's description (although of course, it would be alleged it did fit - and it did - if "fit" means both male, both under 40, both white, both dressed as workers). 

I believe all three of these sightings occurred and all were swept off the table and replaced with a "one sighting fits all" encounter.  It cured a lot of headaches...

 I think I've written before on another thread that Truly rang the other TSBD building that housed their personnel department within 10-15 minutes of the shooting and specifically asked for Oswald's records to be pulled - no one else's - just Oswald's.  Now that, IMO, is getting close to precognition - not quite in Will Fritz's league but damn close...

James DiEugenio wrote:Very nice find with Ellis and Ivon Hasan.

Thanks, Jim. Though I think Sean Murphy may have found them before me.

Yes. That's another "Oswald" sighting that needs to be properly categorized.

"passive"??? LOL couldn't you come up with a better word than that? Sounds like we're all on Prozac!

greg parker wrote:Yes. That's another "Oswald" sighting that needs to be properly categorized.

"passive"??? LOL couldn't you come up with a better word than that? Sounds like we're all on Prozac!

 I just assumed we all were on Prozac?  Aren't you?

Diazapam?

Jim, 

Real nice to have you here. For starters, IF Powell is that military guy that Wesley Frazier talks about in Hour 2, distracting a cop by the Elm Street curb only a few minutes after the shooting- I think it was because something was going on up the street beside the Dal-Tex that Powell didn't want the cop to see. Like a bunch of guys piling into that laundry van. Which took off within minutes of the assassination. I've long-suspected that a hit team, using the cover of cleaning crew uniforms, using  the empty 2nd floor of the Dal-Tex for one sniper's lair.

Powell before the ARRB in 1996, talking about allegedly joining a group of deputy sheriffs in the search of the parking lot, and according to WCD 354 he hung with them for 6-8 minutes: "the officers were curious as to why I was joining them and I just flashed my credentials to show them... I had my camera and so forth..." Yet not one deputy sheriff, DPD officer or reporter corroborated this, some guy with a camera who flashed his Defense Department ID.

There are several more contradictions once you deconstruct his alleged movements that day.

It would have been very easy for Powell to take his famous picture, notice 15 deputy sheriffs running toward the knoll, and claim that he joined them. I personally suspect one role of his was to monitor the front entrance for Oswald's exit.
 
One major puzzle for me is, he gave his photo to the FBI on 1/3/64. In a preliminary HSCA phone interview on 12/17/75, Powell stated  that AFTER the FBI returned his photo, he then made a blow-up, because "In the window directly there appears a figure that seems to be a Negro male standing at the window."

A follow-up call 2 days later: "his enlargement of the slide clearly shows a Negro male standing at the window directly above the one with the boxes in it."

But in his HSCA interview of 1/12/78, he seems to have made his blow-up BEFORE he gave it to the FBI:
Q: Were you told what success the FBI had with your color slide?
A: Yes, I was informed by the agent the man in the window on the 7th floor was identified and interviewed.


There's no such Negro in the 7th floor Powell photo!!! Did he know that Eddie Piper was upstairs during the shooting?!

 I think I've written before on another thread that Truly rang the other TSBD building that housed their personnel department within 10-15 minutes of the shooting and specifically asked for Oswald's records to be pulled - no one else's - just Oswald's.  Now that, IMO, is getting close to precognition - not quite in Will Fritz's league but damn close...

He claims he rang not just for an address, but a description! 

So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse, and got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and address at Irving. 
Mr. BELIN. Did you have any address for him in Dallas, or did you just have an address in Irving? 
Mr. TRULY. Just the address in Irving. I knew nothing of this Dallas address. I didn't know he was living away from his family. 
Mr. BELIN. Now, would that be the address and the description as shown on this application, Exhibit 496? 
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. 

The problem is that CE 496 (the application) has absolutely no physical description on it. And why would Truly need that anyway when he saw him every day?
https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1134&relPageId=236

Did this lack of description on the applicaction form perturb Belin at all? Nope.

I just assumed we all were on Prozac?  Aren't you?

But it doesn't have to sound like we are, does it?

I mean... my sober act when I'm pissed is an absolute corker. No one has a clue when I'm Brahms and Liszt...   


 

Baker's original affidavit is quite the riddle. Something happened on the third or fourth floor (curious that Baker's Sept '64 WC affidavit, submitted after he'd moved encounter to 2nd floor, has a crossout "or the third floor"), I'm just not sure what.

Did Baker stop a conspirator (whether shooter, spotter or lookout) or someone with a innocent reason to be in building (company or building employee, regular delivery guy)? Or, in other words, was Truly was an accomplice to murder or not?

Jim Marrs wrote that to the day he died,Truly was afraid of the federales. Was it because the FBI bullied an innocent man into changing his story from seeing Oswald by the 1st floor Dr. Pepper machine to the 2nd floor Coca-Cola machine? Or was it because the FBI let a guilty man off the hook by ignoring evidence Truly vouched for a non-employee conspirator on the 3rd or 4th floor and he was afraid that justice would be done after all and he'd be arrested?
The answer to that question is one of the secrets Marrion Baker took to his grave 2 years ago... unless, of course, Bob Groden recorded a secret, deathbed interview that he'll keep hidden, for his own peculiar reasons, until the 60th anniversary.   )

Hasan Yusuf wrote:This is the FBI interview with James Powell:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10673&relPageId=25

Notice how there is no mention of his running towards the railroad tracks.

I agree that Eddie Piper was the elderly Negro seen by Arnold Rowland, I mean, there is hardly any doubt that he was, but I don’t think he was the shooter. My money is on it being LC.
The information you posted about Powell has got me thinking about his complicity, Richard. According to the FBI interview, Powell said he saw a Negro man in the 5^th floor window, so maybe his latter day recollection was wrong. However, Powell’s role could have been to implicate a black man in the assassination, as Greg has pointed out on another thread.

Just to clarify... what I said was that maybe Piper was lured up there so that a black man could be accused as well as or instead of a communist (in case the latter didn't pan out). Maybe Piper was a back-up patsy... if Oswald had left the building for lunch? 

I really haven't looked into Powell too much...[edit to add] it is perhaps telling that he mentions seeing a black man...

Those are good points, Hasan, that Powell didn't mention in his FBI interview that he ran to the knoll parking lot, and that he may well have confused the 5th & 7th floors in his later testimony- since Bonnie Ray Williams is prominently in his picture and certainly got interviewed by the FBI. 

The Eddie Piper issue I've tried to stay away from these past 8 months, wanting to avoid friction. But I'm still a fan of the hypothesis that he was the sniper's nest shooter. The 3rd part of my aborted Lancer talk a couple of years ago was going to be all about that- the reasoning that led me to conclude he was the shooter. It's a discussion best left for another thread. The hypothesis has one major weakness, which I discuss. And the hypothesis also has several suggestive indicators. And some subjective interpretation, that could go either way.

I'd rather leave it for another day, when I'm more relaxed, but I'm firmly convinced the shooter was a black man, based on Euins' account. The only other candidate I've considered is Herminio Diaz Garcia, Trafficante's mulatto bodyguard. He seems like a pretty vicious character. 

And I also am in favor of 2 people being up in that sniper's nest at the time in question, a spotter to help out the shooter. I think this was a white guy, the face faintly photographed in the left-hand double window.

Want to do some minor editing of my old Lancer talk, and I'll post that Piper topic up in a few weeks.

I haven't looked into Powell a great deal myself, Greg, so I am anxious to read everything Richard has to write about him. I think your theory about Piper has merit.

No worries, Richard. I Look forward to reading what you have for us concerning Piper. I agree that there were at least two men up on the 6th floor at the time of the assassination.

I agree that Eddie Piper was the elderly Negro seen by Arnold Rowland, I mean, there is hardly any doubt that he was, but I don’t think he was the shooter. My money is on it being LC

google The Elderly Negro (that site takes the theory the shooter actually was an old black man).  I guess it was because street level witnesses had reported a black man on 6th floor that, at the same time Piper is cut from the official 6th floor story, another black man, Bonnie Ray Williams, is added to it (along with his chicken bone sandwich).  Why the changeout? Piper perjured himself anyway with his 1st floor story, simpler to cast him as the inventor of chicken bone sandwich who went down to 5th floor shortly before the shooting.  I understand the need to "fix' Piper's story, but why was Williams put on 6th, had he done something else such that his story needed fixing also?  Finally, is" LC" Larry Crafard or do you mean someone else?

One major puzzle for me is, he gave his photo to the FBI on 1/3/64. In a preliminary HSCA phone interview on 12/17/75, Powell stated  that AFTER the FBI returned his photo, he then made a blow-up, because "In the window directly there appears a figure that seems to be a Negro male standing at the window."...

There's no such Negro in the 7th floor Powell photo!!! Did he know that Eddie Piper was upstairs during the shooting?!"
 
Oh yes, Powell, who pretended to be a cop, searching the scene of the crime and interviewing witnesses.  Even if he was acting with innocent motives (and not as a conspirator), he could have gotten in big trouble and had good reason to be a most cooperative witness for the FBI. Your comment raises two questions in my mind:

1. Do we  really know how many pictures Powell took of the TSBD that day? If he gave negatives to a newspaper before the FBI, we do; if no one saw his pics before handing them over to the Feds, we have no idea how many shots were sucked into the same black hole that ate Oswald's Minox camera.

2. Do we know if the pictures we've seen were taken on Nov. 22 or are they pictures of a govt re-enactment? If the latter the FBI or the WC would have been able to stage manage with the windows any witness they wanted to be visible (or hidden) from the shot, I believe a fake picture done that way was possible even with primitive 1960s technology. )

The only other candidate I've considered is Herminio Diaz Garcia, Trafficante's mulatto bodyguard. He seems like a pretty vicious character. 

Didn't Gerry Hemming name a particular anti-Castro black Cuban as the 6th floor spotter? Hemming was a consultant for Oliver Stone and claimed credit for the spotter in JFK being cast as black.

beowulf wrote:Finally, is" LC" Larry Crafard or do you mean someone else?

 
Sorry, beowulf. Yes, LC is Larry Crafard.

Just to clarify why I believe that Powell was the "Secret Service" agent who had spoken to Howard Brennan, consider the following:
 

Mr Belin. What is your occupation, Mr. Brennan?

Mr Brennan. Steamfitter

Mr Belin. And for whom are you employed, or by whom are you employed?

Mr Brennan. Wallace and Beard

Mr Belin. Is that a construction company?

Mr Brennan. Yes

 
The following is from Powell's memo/report to his superior:
 

I reported what I had heard to Let. Col. Roy H. Pate, Region Commander. I then returned to the first floor, where I met and interviewed the aforementioned construction worker, an employee of Wallace Beard, Oil and Gas Building, Dallas. I did not have time to get the man’s name because the Dallas Police had to talk to him. I was able to learn from this man that he saw someone fire shots from approximately the sixth floor of the TSBDB, and that one of the shots hit Kennedy.

 
In his FBI interview, Powell is quoted as saying the man he interviewed was "a beer company employee". However, I think the word beard was confused for beer. If anyone disagrees that Brennan was the man Powell had interviewed, please let me know.

After Powell returned to his office at the 112th, he composed a memorandum for the record which stated he took a photograph of the Depository building when several people in the crowd pointed up to it.

http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/other_powell_documents

And Denis Morisette's website has several other powell documents listed adjacent and above this link, if you scroll about halfway down.

I don't think he took any other photos of the building that day. His physical description for a 1978 HSCA interview was 5'7", 155 lbs, white, with brown hair showing baldness. This matches very well with a man in a suit, holding a camera very similar to (or the same) as the Minolta he said he used, in the Altgens 5 photograph, standing beneath the open window on the driver's side of that white laundry van next to the Dal-Tex. And he did tell the Secret Service on 2/3/64 in WCD 354 that "he had been watching the parade from a position near the corner of Houston and Elm"

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=2&pos=8

But he soon changed his story to one where he was half a block away, trotting from Austin Street (where he'd allegedly taken a picture of the motorcade on Main Street- but it blacked out when developed) half a block further up Elm at the time of the shots. 

HSCA 180-10027-10333 is an FBI memo, dated December 31, stating that Powell took his photo approximately 30 seconds after the assassination. Also on December 31 a Lt. Colonel E.E. Boyd (not to be confused with e.e. cummings!) of the 112th informed the FBI that Powell had indeed taken a Kodachrome transparency of the Depository approximately 30 seconds after the last shot.

Which is pertinent data when you try to couple that with time estimates of Tom Dillard's photos of the TSBD.

Thanks for all the info, Richard. Here's Commission document 354:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10755&relPageId=4

Also on December 31 a Lt. Colonel E.E. Boyd (not to be confused with e.e. cummings!)

A Dallas conspiracy that included e.e. cummings would be vast indeed. Oh scratch that one, he died in 1962. )

To second what Hasan said, thanks for all the good info Richard.