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Brian says...Sat 30 Dec 2023, 4:33 pmEd.Ledoux
last drinks before the bar closesSat 30 Dec 2023, 2:46 pmTony Krome
The Mystery of Dirk Thomas KunertSat 30 Dec 2023, 1:23 pmTony Krome
Vickie AdamsSat 30 Dec 2023, 1:14 pmgreg_parker
Busted again: Tex ItaliaSat 30 Dec 2023, 9:22 amEd.Ledoux
The Raleigh CallSat 30 Dec 2023, 4:33 ambarto
Was Oswald ever confronted with the physical rifle?Sat 30 Dec 2023, 12:03 amCastroSimp
Who Dat? Fri 29 Dec 2023, 10:24 pmTony Krome
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Mick_Purdy
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Tue 15 May 2018, 11:34 am
First topic message reminder :

Ed Ledoux wrote:




When police were called to the Texas Theater the description was of a man sneaking into the theater with a shotgun.
This was broadcast by the Dallas Police Department dispatcher. 
Why else would police descend upon the TT in such force? Dozens of armed cops for a kid sneaking into the balcony? 
So,,,Whom gave Julia Postal this description? Since she claims not to have actually seen the individual whom Brewer asked her about.
Brewer claims he is responsible for that description since he followed the person from down the street. Wouldn't Julia tell police this?
Surely she did not tell them she saw the person, so she had to rely on Brewer for this. Yet where did a shotgun get introduced if not by Postal. 

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lanceman
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Mon 28 Mar 2022, 2:04 am
Lee Bowers had an excellent view of the picket fence area, parking lot and rail yard. Wouldn't he have seen the tramps scurrying back to the freight cars? I’ve never heard a good reason explaining the role of the tramps in the assassination, its setup or getaway. To tie up law enforcement with diversionary arrests?

There is a thread on the EF about the timing of a GK shooter being able to walk from the picket fence to a “safe” area towards the TSBD. I used Mark Taylor’s excellent Motorcade63 to verify that, yes, it’s possible. But he would have been the sole person walking in that direction and would have stood out from all the other persons gowing toward the area. Lee Bowers would have certainly noticed this.

The men on the sixth floor brandishing rifles prior to the assassination were certainly unconcerned about being noticed. To the point that perhaps they wanted to be noticed. Maybe that’s a new topic “Sixth Floor Follies”.
Ed.Ledoux
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Mon 28 Mar 2022, 7:08 am
Tramps.
I'd say they hear and ran from Gunfire.
They we're detained probably told to shut up and get out of town or else.

Officer Smith knows the man didn't run but had to show ID and flashes government badge.
Man was attempting to walk away.
Later he gets in a car with another guy and drives away. Per Smith.

There seems to be only one rifle on Six (or 5th) and it was never attached to anyone (ie no prints)
No men with rifles but boxes in windows basically precludes any views of such.

We're they eating chicken too
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Mon 28 Mar 2022, 10:28 am
The tramps were arrested by D. V. Harkness at least 20 minutes after the shots. So hopefully they were able to stop running by then. Actually, they were caught inside one of the freight cars Harkness was directed to search because the train had been held up for the motorcade and was now getting ready to leave. 

I read Harkness’ WC testimony and he mentions Secret Service agents behind the TSBD, probably within 10-15 minutes after shots fired. I don’t think any Secret Service agents had returned to Dealey Plaza from Parkland that soon. Belin ignores this.

Sounds to me like the lookouts were still doing their jobs getting shooter(s) out of the area. They could even have been the shooters. If so, no need for panicky dashes to the Rambler.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/harkness.htm
Ed.Ledoux
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Mon 28 Mar 2022, 11:22 am
I thought they 2 tramps ran and hid...for twenty(?) minutes... in a train car where a bum was already hiding.
But details are unimportant I guess.

The only SS agent claimed to be loose in DP was Lem Johns ghost.
Good luck getting straight answer to that riddle.
Lem may be the dirty fingernail man but seems Ofc. Smith was not asked if Lem was that man.
Instead we got subterfuge from Weigman and the lot.

No need to worry about any Real SS though if you know their procedures to stay with their man. So anyone convincing enough could flash that ID and expect cooperation from unaware locals.
Why the "SS" man gets in a car and Smith lets him be driven away is beyond me, but there's two guys and two tramps which makes for a team in the general area at the time.
Guy who was carrying a weapon had Gov. ID real or fake is unknown. He got away no running necessary.

Smith should have gotten a better look at ID and Name on the ID along with issuing agency. He was going to make a report with "dirty fingernails" as the identifying characteristics.
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Mon 28 Mar 2022, 6:33 pm
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John A Callahan died 2001 was married to Mildred Patrick.
Ed.Ledoux
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Tue 29 Mar 2022, 6:23 am
JOHN AUGUST CALLAHAN

John August Callahan, 85, passed away Monday, May 14, 2001, after a
brief illness. He was born in Palestine, Texas, on Sept. 6, 1915. He
married Mildred Patrick, also of Palestine, on May 26, 1941. He served
overseas in the Signal Corps and in the Merchant Marines in World War
II.

He began his long employment with Rowley United Theatres, later to
become United Artists, in Palestine. He was later transferred to
Dallas as city manager of the theaters there. While in Dallas, John
was an active member of the Knights of Columbus, Oak Cliff Lions Club
and the Variety Club. He and his family moved to San Angelo in 1966,
where he served as city manager of United Artist Theatres until his retirement in 1980.

He was a Lions Club member for 55 years and a past president of the Downtown Lions Club in San Angelo, as well as past exalted ruler of the Benevolent Order of Elks. John was a member of Holy Angels Catholic Church.

John is survived by his loving wife of 60 years, Mildred; daughter, Cathy Rae and husband, David, of Houston; son, Pat Callahan and wife,
Susan, of San Angelo; grandchildren, John P. Callahan, Robin Rae and Sean Rae; and sisters, Ann Jones and husband, Earl, of Omaha, Neb., and Clara Schaff and husband, Vince, of Metarie, La.

Visitation with the family will be from 5 to 6:30 p.m Wednesday, May
16, at Johnsons Funeral Home. Rosary will be recited at 7 p.m.
Wednesday in Johnsons Funeral Home Chapel. Mass of the Christian
Burial will be at 2 p.m Thursday, May 17, at Holy Angels Catholic Church. Graveside service will be at 3:30 p.m. Friday in St. Josephs Cemetery in Palestine, Texas.

Pallbearers are Oscar Cook, J.W. Hughes, Lamar Kopecky, Bobby Baucom, Ron Beard and Bill Feathers. Honorary pallbearers are Downtown Lions Club members.
Ed.Ledoux
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Tue 29 Mar 2022, 6:43 am

David, John's brother:
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Tue 29 Mar 2022, 7:23 am
Greg_Doudna wrote:
greg_parker wrote:The twin ideas that he was picked up AND was accurately quoted by Craig, does not add up. According to Craig, Oswald seems genuinely baffled by talk of a station wagon (that it was a Rambler was not mentioned in front of Oswald) and Oswald can only think of Ruth Paine as driving such a car. By telling them NOT to bring her into it, he is in danger of doing the reverse and convincing them it WAS her car. Yet he seems to be genuinely concerned about protecting her. 

In short, it is Craig's testimony itself that convinces me it a case of mistaken identity. Even if the person was somehow involved... for me to think otherwise, I would have to believe that Lee was a first class actor.

I have thought of an original solution to make sense of the Oswald "leave Ruth Paine out of this" statement overheard by Roger Craig. I have separately made a lot of argument that the Furniture Mart and Irving Sports Shop sightings of Lee and Marina with Lee driving Ruth Paine's car in fact happened with Lee and Marina and dated Mon Nov 11, 1963 when Lee had access to Ruth's car and Ruth was gone most of that day.

It is independently known that someone anonymous phoned in a tip to the Dallas Police Department that weekend that Oswald had had a rifle sighted at a gun shop, with enough information given by the anonymous caller to enable the Irving Sports Shop to be identified. There may be a discrepancy of a day in the timing, I don't recall. But if the DPD did receive an early tip--for whatever reason from whoever--concerning Oswald having that scope installed at the Irving Sports Shop--a logical response on the part of DPD would be for Fritz to ask Oswald about that. 

If Lee was being questioned by Fritz about that--my idea is that Roger Craig walked into Fritz's office just as Oswald was answering a question from Fritz about that. The question (unheard by Craig) might have been Fritz trying to pin down Oswald, saying (based on the tip) "someone saw you in a station wagon that looked such-and-such". Oswald trying to defend Ruth Paine (Oswald had driven her car that day without her knowledge in my reconstruction) ... "That's Ruth Paine's car, leave her out of this". 

In other words, Lee is referring to Ruth Paine's car in response to Fritz questioning him about Nov 11. Roger Craig heard Lee's words and he thought Lee was referring to the car of which Roger Craig was speaking. Alternatively, Roger Craig tells Fritz about the Dealey Plaza Rambler and Fritz asks Oswald about that but Oswald misunderstands the question thinking Fritz is still asking about Nov 11 and answers. Either way it is a miscommunication in which Roger Craig heard Oswald's words correctly but Oswald was not speaking of Ruth Paine's car at Dealey Plaza or on Nov 22, 1963. Anyway a possibility to consider.

Roger Craig’s interaction with the Fritz-Oswald interrogation was approximately 6:00 PM on Friday. Four hours after Oswald’s arrest seems rather early for an anonymous tip to have been phoned in unless it was a deliberate attempt to poison the well and connect Oswald with the rifle before the Klein’s-Hidell link was established.Wouldn’t this work against the backyard photos and Klein’s order paperwork showing the rifle was shipped with the scope back in March?
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Tue 29 Mar 2022, 10:00 am
My previous assay of the "Plunger" was that it was a toilet plunger handle that broke and which was to be replaced (hardware store item) and the furniture store lady was wholly confused.

You might ask why a Gunsmith was even considered or involved.
Easy. A gunsmith could turn the other end of the plunger handle and cut new threads for it to reattach to the cup. If you are cheap and are repairing a toilet plunger this is your best bet.
She seemed the type to talk over others and liked to talk when no such information was requested.

Some other possibilities are Bayonet catch , oft called a plunger.
This would require the bayonet to be brought in the furniture store "in a paper bag"? ie not long enough and doesn't match her description.
Next is the the safety plunger.
It would require the bolt assembly be brought in the store and this was not long enough to match her description. Otherwise the whole barrel assembly (+30"), is carried in but that is too long for her description

A broken or rotted off threads of a toilet plunger handle in a paper bag does meet the length described.

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I don't recall Lee having the bayonet.
If Lee had broken the safety "plunger" of the Carcano in evidence it was not found to be replaced nor any recent fingerprints from any gunsmithing work.
So no broken 'plunger' no replaced or repaired 'Plunger' at least from the rifle in evidence.

Perhaps the 36 inch Carcano from March was repaired or sold due to it being inoperable 'safety plunger'... maybe Lee trades it for a pistol at a Ft. Worth gunsmith.
But Greg Parker makes a good case Lee never owned any of these and a shotgun was a better choice.

Of course it could be any combination of these...

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Cheers
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Wed 30 Mar 2022, 7:19 am
The Ryder repair tag said drill, tap and bore sight, which seems to be in reference to work done on a gun. One thing that's always stood out to me about the whole thing is that the anonymous phone calls to the press and FBI that started the whole fiasco; and another call made to the Dayton Field Office by a guy who later identified himself as Duane Creviston, who told the FBI to check around Dallas to see if Oswald had recently had the gun "sighted in" as that would surely show premeditation...

I'd like to get back to a point I made earlier about the initials on the revolver. Bob Carroll's initials are not visible in the archive photo's - he testified to signing the back of the gun and there are no images that show the metal strip in question. Gerald Hill testified to signing "Hill" on the same metal strip on the butt of the gun but on the opposite side by the trigger guard. I sure as hell can't see anything like that, just an "H" in a completely different location: 

Mr. HILL. I am trying to see my mark on it to make sure, sir. I don't recall specifically where I marked it, but I did mark it, if this is the one. I don't remember where I did mark it, now. 
Here it is, Hill right here, right in this crack. 
Mr. BELIN. Officer, you have just pointed out a place which I will identify as a metal portion running along the butt of the gun. Can you describe it any more fully? 
Mr. HILL. It would be to the inside of the pistol grip holding the gun in the air. It would begin under the trigger guard to where the last name H-i-l-l is scratched in the metal


 Texas Theatre Theatrics - Page 15 Gun_le10Texas Theatre Theatrics - Page 15 Gun_ri10


These are the best images I can get of the area in question, and I don't see anything scratched in the metal. Here is the mystery "H" in a different location:

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Even weirder IMO is the butt of the gun. Paul Bentley wrote that he signed the gun in Westbrook's office in his 12/3/63 report, but he never had possession of it according to the official chain of custody of McDonald > Carroll > Hill > Baker (homicide bureau). Of course Bentley was never deposed by the Warren Commission, and the Warren Report only says that McDonald and TWO other arresting officers signed the gun. McDonald testified that he marked the gun with "M" on the butt of the gun by the screw, and sure enough there is an "M" in that location but it appears to be written in pencil. Bentley's initials however are etched in clear as day:

Texas Theatre Theatrics - Page 15 Gun_pi11

Am I missing something here? Is this not pretty weird? Are there any other good images of the pistol besides the four official archives photos?
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Wed 30 Mar 2022, 10:36 am
Yes weird.
There should be a barrel photo showing lands and grooves
A real underside photo.
Photos of marks, scratches or initials seems a no brainer.

I recall someone asking archives for Photos... sorry I think it was on Lancer.

There was the Life photos which I believe did photography of all the items and may have one showing pistols spine....Texas Theatre Theatrics - Page 15 Scree685
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I am not seeing the H
it looks more like a W?
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I know Bart has scoffed at the lack of images showing initials. Not sure if he's dug anything up.
Cheers
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Thu 31 Mar 2022, 3:45 am
Ed, 

You may be right about the "H", though this is how the mark appears when I zoom in on the archive photos:

Texas Theatre Theatrics - Page 15 H10

Also, I could be wrong, but I THINK I can see McDonald's "M" on the butt of the gun. Belin said McDonald was pointing to the "steel plate directly below the screw on the butt" of the gun. From a short distance it would be impossible to tell whether the screw was above or below the plate, as the serial number could not be read - assuming the reference was actually to the BOTTOM of the pistol grip. Since Belin did not specify the inside or outside of the butt, I think it's a fair assumption. 

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Does that not look like an "M" written in pencil"?

Tom
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Thu 31 Mar 2022, 9:07 am
Sorry I've just joined in - this cold case gets weirder and weirder if that's even possible. So the gun the Cops tried to pin to Oswald in all likelihood may not have been signed by the officers who were supposed to take care of the chain of custody of the alleged murder weapon. It's hard to fathom this could have been just sloppy police work.

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Thu 31 Mar 2022, 9:59 am
No worries Tom I don't know why these photos showed W rather than that H.
Odd. The lines and their orientation with differing lighting conditions could cause this...

or it's more complex symbol like a star or mark?
Overlayed to see what it would look like.
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Changing orientation to match lines of H to W
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lines up with one bright spot

90 degrees opposite and the best match when overlayed H tilted left and down ward slightly with several bright spots.

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Better pictures of the revolver are necessary to be definite its anything.
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Thu 31 Mar 2022, 10:07 am
Better pictures of the revolver are necessary to be definite its anything.


Common theme with this case - always crap pictures of the important stuff. Should I make a request to to NARA for higher res pics? That's if there are any.

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Thu 31 Mar 2022, 11:58 am
lanceman wrote:

Roger Craig’s interaction with the Fritz-Oswald interrogation was approximately 6:00 PM on Friday. Four hours after Oswald’s arrest seems rather early for an anonymous tip to have been phoned in unless it was a deliberate attempt to poison the well and connect Oswald with the rifle before the Klein’s-Hidell link was established.Wouldn’t this work against the backyard photos and Klein’s order paperwork showing the rifle was shipped with the scope back in March?

Good questions. In the analysis I developed in a topic on the Education Forum titled "The Oswald Family at the Furniture Mart, a rifle scope installation in November 1963, and why it matters: a sale of the rifle before the assassination", it indeed would be an intentional tip assisting the Dallas police in incriminating Oswald but that could be suspected in any case due to the anonymous phone calls giving that tip that weekend whenever they occurred. It does not argue against the Klein's paperwork in this way: the scope installation is well interpreted as a reinstallation of the original scope shipped with the rifle to the Oswald PO box. The reason Oswald took the scope off was because it was crap and he had no use for it. The reason he would want it put back on would be to restore the rifle to its original shipped condition for resale or conveyance. Ordinarily reinstallation of the scope could be done with a screwdriver without need for a gunsmith but I found statements from gunsmiths saying stripping of screws and threads of scopes is commonly done by inexperienced gunowners. If the threads become stripped then new screw holes of the next larger size need to be drilled and tapped in the same existing holes, and that is when a gunsmith is needed. Oswald walked into the Furniture Mart holding a scope-sized package in his hands asking for a gunsmith, was directed to the Irving Sports Shop one block away, and the "Oswald" job ticket customer was remembered by Dial Ryder as not buying a scope but having brought his own with him to be installed--this was not a newly purchased scope but the same scope shipped with the rifle by Kleins which Oswald was having reinstalled. So the Dial Ryder installation of the scope is not in conflict with the Kleins order or the backyard photos. That was my analysis. I also realized that some of the anomalies in the Dial Ryder work ticket--his slowness in telling his boss about an Oswald work order; the owner's inability to find a cash register tape identifying that transaction--are because this was a case of a cash transaction done by an employee who pocketed the cash without ringing it up. Dial Ryder was taking care of the shop while the owner was on vacation; Nov 11 was a holiday and Dial Ryder was at the shop alone; Dial Ryder wrote up the work ticket, did the job while Oswald waited, collected the cash, the cash went into his pocket, no cash register record, q.e.d. :-)
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Thu 31 Mar 2022, 12:18 pm
Mick_Purdy wrote:Better pictures of the revolver are necessary to be definite its anything.


Common theme with this case - always crap pictures of the important stuff. Should I make a request to to NARA for higher res pics? That's if there are any.

If it’s possible what we need are hi res pics of the metal strip running along both the inside and outside of the pistol grip. 

It’s just nuts to me that the only indisputably visible initials on the gun photos are from Paul Bentley, who never officially handled the gun - but, according to nobody but himself, was part of the signature party in Westbrook’s office hours after the gun had been brought back from the theater. 

Hell even IF all of the alleged initials are present a defense attorney likely could have got the pistol tossed out of court, since the chain of custody is nonexistent, but we should still try to figure out what’s on there if we can IMO.
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Sat 02 Apr 2022, 5:36 pm
According to the NARA website FAQs

“Can I see the rifle or other artifacts?

It is NARA policy to make evidentiary objects available for viewing only when a researcher's needs cannot be met by a review of pictures, reproductions, or descriptions of the object and when production of the original will not cause damage or harm to the original. We will be glad to consider your request to see the physical evidence if you will:

(1) Identify which specific exhibit or exhibits you wish to see. A general request to see all of the physical exhibits is not sufficient.

(2) Indicate which of the photographs, drawings, measurements and descriptions of the exhibit and any other documentation relating to it you have examined.

(3) Indicate briefly why the documentation available on the exhibit does not satisfy your research objectives and how those objectives might be met by observation of the original exhibits.

We will not consider any request unless the researcher has examined the digitized preservation photographs of the "Exhibits and Other Evidence from the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy (Warren Commission), 1959-1964" that are available through the National Archives Catalog.”

I think verifying the (non-existent) chain of custody is about as legitimate as it gets for a need to the see the revolver, or at least to have NARA take more pictures. The archive catalog photos show NONE of the signatures that are supposed to be on the gun.

Also, looks like NARA is open now for mail order document requests. I need some documents from the 89-43 Dallas Field Office file that are not online as far as I can tell, so I’m gonna email them in the next couple days and see what happens. I’ll ask about the revolver too unless anyone else wants to.

I wonder how long it’ll take them to comply with Biden’s order and digitize the entire JFK collection…
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Sun 03 Apr 2022, 3:31 am
Please do!

NARA is quite negligent in this aspect as they know initials on shells have been contentious as well.
Thus they took photos of them after much prodding.

The only other initial/sig is under the revolvers grip
but that is not important to chain of custody.
Cheers!

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Sun 03 Apr 2022, 3:39 pm
Yeah same CF that could of had dog in the hunt to track a cop killer!!! but alas no...

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I'd bring a bag of Morton's finest when it comes to DPD story time.
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Sun 03 Apr 2022, 7:25 pm
Well I emailed NARA about the revolver, we’ll see what happens. It was tacked on to the end of request for a reproduction quote; and the last time I emailed them, even when they weren’t taking requests due to COVID I got a nice reply within a couple days.

Bentley (Paul) told the same story to Larry Sneed about cutting Oswald’s eye with his ring, but Oswald taking the butt of shotgun to the face from Bentley’s nephew is news to me. Would Oswald just calmly tell the press “a policeman hit me” if he got shotgun-whipped though?
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Sun 24 Apr 2022, 2:46 am
I finally got my document request quote. $93 for 34 copies…should be worth it though if they are what I think they are. The guy who gave me the quote ignored my question about revolver photos though, so I just emailed him back…we’ll see if he says anything. It might be helpful if others email NARA about the same thing. If this guy doesn’t there’s another archivist I’ve emailed before who’s been great, Anna Smallwood, so I bet she’ll reply with something even if it’s just to say we’re shit out of luck.

One thing I didn’t know is that NARA can upload your requested copies and email them to you. I thought it had to be mail order, so hopefully I’ll get the stuff a lot sooner than three months from now.

In other news, I finally found out that I’m not completely fucked and don’t need spine surgery, and that my freak paralysis should eventually come back on it’s own. Can finally focus on getting some legit research done. The documents I’m getting on the rifle investigation should go a long way to clearing up a lot of the bullshit out there, assuming it’s not just a bunch of withdrawal forms…
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Sun 24 Apr 2022, 7:40 am
That is good news.
Thanks for keeping us updated on everything.
Mahalo,
Ed
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Wed 27 Apr 2022, 1:24 am
Quote is paid for and they are supposedly working on tracking down my documents. They have a “track your order” service that’s actually pretty cool. ALSO, I got a reply from the guy about the revolver:

“Sorry, I left that part out. That's on me. To see if images showing the initials on Oswald's .38 caliber revolver can be made, you'll want to email specialaccess_foia@nara.gov and use Warren Commission Exhibit 143 as your subject line. The exhibits are the only thing I don't have access to, so I can't help you there.”

I guess I’ll email them too and see what happens. Hey it’s progress at least.
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