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Mick Purdy
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Fritz, and Hoover - not the happy campers.

on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 2:45 pm
Many words have been written about the angst and tensions between Hoover's FBI, Hoover, and the DPD's Fritz, Curry and Wade. About a tension which spiked dramatically on Nov 24 at around 1.00pm. 

We do know now that the DPD were well informed of the threat to Oswald's well being, and on the surface it would appear the DPD especially Fritz and Curry were grossly negligent in their failure to protect Oswald. It would seem they had foreknowledge of threats to Oswald's life and chose not to supply sufficient protection to the suspect in their care.





https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/dallas-cold-snap-this-weekend-11514528
Terry W. Martin
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Re: Fritz, and Hoover - not the happy campers.

on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 6:15 am
Yes, Mick, and that's why I think the tension was primarily over two different things going on here (well, in 1963 Dallas, anyway).

Hoover had one agenda and the DPD another.

The evidence points to two (at least) different cover-ups at work here. And, personally, I don't think Ruby was operating under orders from the FBI or anyone in Washington. I think he took orders from those he knew best: the DPD. After all, they ruled Dallas and Wade was their man. Ruby figured he was going to get off.

Later when he realized something else was going on, he tried to get to DC to tell about the conspiracy... at least the one he knew about.

Just an opinion, of course.

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Re: Fritz, and Hoover - not the happy campers.

on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 10:34 am
Great discussion!

And I agree fully, Ruby, I believe was assured he would get off lightly and be a hero in the process. Not sure he fully believed it, but they were using other carrots and sticks as well.

In Texas, you don't have 1st and 2nd degree murder. You have "murder" and "capital murder". 

I think Ruby was led to believe he would be sentenced under simple murder, which typically draws anything from 2 to 20 years. He was probably told "murder with a 2 year stretch". They lied. He was sentenced under capital murder and got the death penalty. In the interim, they kept him drugged so no one would take anything he said seriously.

Murder in Texas is a first degree felony. This charge will typically carry a sentence of between five and 99 years in a state prison and/or a fine of no more than $10,000. At the sentencing stage of the defendant's trial, the defendant can raise the issue of having committed the crime in the "heat of passion" arising from an adequate cause. If the defendant is found to have been in the heat of passion at the time of the homicide, then the charge will be reduced to second degree felony. A second degree felony carries a sentence of between two and twenty years in a state prison and a fine of no more than $10,000.
https://statelaws.findlaw.com/texas-law/texas-second-degree-murder-laws.html

In Texas, first degree murder (or capital murder), carries a very serious and very heavy penalty. Since Texas is a state that allows capital punishment, it is possible to receive a death penalty sentence. Generally speaking, the sentence for a capital felony in Texas is either death or life in prison without the possibility of parole.
If the defendant is declared to be incapacitated (e.g. with a mental disability or is declared insane), then he/she will be spared from the death penalty. The minimum age in Texas to receive the death penalty is 17 years of age.
https://statelaws.findlaw.com/texas-law/texas-first-degree-murder-laws.html

I know these are modern statutes, but I do not think it was much different in '63.

edit to note - as above - his sentence may have actually been as little as a fine... ("and/or a fine of no more than $10,000").

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Mick Purdy
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Re: Fritz, and Hoover - not the happy campers.

on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 11:31 am
Terry W. Martin wrote:Yes, Mick, and that's why I think the tension was primarily over two different things going on here (well, in 1963 Dallas, anyway).

Hoover had one agenda and the DPD another.

The evidence points to two (at least) different cover-ups at work here. And, personally, I don't think Ruby was operating under orders from the FBI or anyone in Washington. I think he took orders from those he knew best: the DPD. After all, they ruled Dallas and Wade was their man. Ruby figured he was going to get off.

Later when he realized something else was going on, he tried to get to DC to tell about the conspiracy... at least the one he knew about.

Just an opinion, of course.
I think you're bang on Terry, There were in my opinion at least two different agendas in the aftermath of Oswald's murder.
Hoover was trying to pull the whole mess one way and the clowns down in Texas were up to something completely different.

That much is hidden in plain sight in statements, reports and memo's during and just after the weekend.
I'm about 2/3 rds through writing the script on this stuff, and it's very clear at least to me that the DPD and Washington were on two completely different pages for at least the few days, even the first week after the assassination, until Hoovers men got down there and straightened things out.

I do believe Ruby was told to murder Oswald. I lean toward believing Fritz was involved in assisting the execution of Lee in the basement. I believe Fritz promised Ruby he wouldn't do time for the hit.

There is some evidence to suggest that Fritz and Ruby were well acquainted. I do believe this to have been true.

I believe some in at the DPD knew of Ruby's troubles with the IRS, it's not beyond the realms that this was used to pressure him into committing murder.

For me at least, there was a lot more going on in at the DPD. As I researched for my script, it's become really clear to me at least, that Fritz, Decker, Wade and possibly Alexander were prime movers in railroading Lee Oswald. They were gifted so called evidence from Ruth Paines house, a throw down weapon in a building by an unknown person and a planted weapon (gun) from an unknown cop, and lets not forget the rifle ownership paperwork along with bus transfers. The gun shells too.

Hoover, made it clear by the close of Saturday night 23rd Nov that the case against the man the DPD had in custody was weak, the DPD went about solving that problem and finalised things around 1.00pm Sunday 24th November. Just my opinion of course.
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Re: Fritz, and Hoover - not the happy campers.

on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 12:00 pm
greg parker wrote:Great discussion!

And I agree fully, Ruby, I believe was assured he would get off lightly and be a hero in the process. Not sure he fully believed it, but they were using other carrots and sticks as well.

In Texas, you don't have 1st and 2nd degree murder. You have "murder" and "capital murder". 

I think Ruby was led to believe he would be sentenced under simple murder, which typically draws anything from 2 to 20 years. He was probably told "murder with a 2 year stretch". They lied. He was sentenced under capital murder and got the death penalty. In the interim, they kept him drugged so no one would take anything he said seriously.

Murder in Texas is a first degree felony. This charge will typically carry a sentence of between five and 99 years in a state prison and/or a fine of no more than $10,000. At the sentencing stage of the defendant's trial, the defendant can raise the issue of having committed the crime in the "heat of passion" arising from an adequate cause. If the defendant is found to have been in the heat of passion at the time of the homicide, then the charge will be reduced to second degree felony. A second degree felony carries a sentence of between two and twenty years in a state prison and a fine of no more than $10,000.
https://statelaws.findlaw.com/texas-law/texas-second-degree-murder-laws.html

In Texas, first degree murder (or capital murder), carries a very serious and very heavy penalty. Since Texas is a state that allows capital punishment, it is possible to receive a death penalty sentence. Generally speaking, the sentence for a capital felony in Texas is either death or life in prison without the possibility of parole.
If the defendant is declared to be incapacitated (e.g. with a mental disability or is declared insane), then he/she will be spared from the death penalty. The minimum age in Texas to receive the death penalty is 17 years of age.
https://statelaws.findlaw.com/texas-law/texas-first-degree-murder-laws.html

I know these are modern statutes, but I do not think it was much different in '63.

edit to note - as above - his sentence may have actually been as little as a fine... ("and/or a fine of no more than $10,000").
Yes Greg, it is a great discussion. Too often overlooked in my opinion.

I believe you're right mate. The laws I'm sure would've been similar back in 1963.

It's more than likely Ruby was commanded to execute Lee Oswald. Fritz telling Ruby he'd get off with minimum time done, possibly just a fine. Almost certain in my opinion.
Fritz and Ruby were well acquainted. The IRS wanted Ruby's ass. Doesn't take much to build that bridge.

Wade knew Hoover well, Wade had worked under Hoover at the FBI previously. Hoover most certainly told Wade that the police boys down there in Dallas didn't have a strong case against their man in custody. Wade would've most likely have informed Fritz and Co. of this Saturday.

Fritz in my opinion should be investigated today. Any statute of limitations on accessory to murder in Texas? In my opinion he most likely aided and abetted in Lee Oswald's murder.

It's easy to see why this case is so entangled. Cops covering up one way and the upstate authorities pulling the other.
It's also easy to understand the tensions which existed between Washington's FBI and the good Ol' Boys down south from the DPD in 1963.

Those tensions most likely existed well before the assassination anyways. You only have to watch the movie Mississippi Burning
to get the picture.
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Re: Fritz, and Hoover - not the happy campers.

on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 2:03 pm
Mick Purdy wrote:Wade knew Hoover well, Wade had worked under Hoover at the FBI previously. Hoover most certainly told Wade that the police boys down there in Dallas didn't have a strong case against their man in custody. Wade would've most likely have informed Fritz and Co. of this Saturday.

Fritz in my opinion should be investigated today. Any statute of limitations on accessory to murder in Texas? In my opinion he most likely aided and abetted in Lee Oswald's murder.

It's easy to see why this case is so entangled. Cops covering up one way and the upstate authorities pulling the other.
It's also easy to understand the tensions which existed between Washington's FBI and the good Ol' Boys down south from the DPD in 1963.

Those tensions most likely existed well before the assassination anyways. You only have to watch the movie Mississippi Burning to get the picture.

I forgot about the connection Wade had with Hoover. And that's probably where he learned all his "dirty tricks". Hoover was a despicable excuse for a human being.

On the Texas side of the equation, I'm sure Fritz was dirty as they come; too much evidence tends in that direction what with all the Reid technique stuff already dug up and the easy segue into the DAs office. I think he was also the one with the photo of the April shooting at Gen. Walker's (which he claimed you couildn't see the lic. plate) and I believe he was the first with the BYPs, if I am not mistaken.

I think Fritz was more than just a little free-and-lose with the evidence, I think he was helping materialize it.

Again, still just an opinion.

I'm liking the sound of your script!!

We have tow films to get cracking on now.

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Mick Purdy
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Re: Fritz, and Hoover - not the happy campers.

on Sat 26 Jan 2019, 1:42 pm
At the direction from Lyndon Johnson Clifton Carter phones Wade sometime between 6.00pm-8.00pm, he places two more calls to Wade during the evening. Carter implores Wade at Johnsons request that the man they have in custody be charged for the two murders and that there should be no others involved.

At the very same time Hoover has made it known he thinks the case against the man in custody is weak.

Wade alerts Fritz of the request coming from Johnsons office and begins in earnest to railroad their suspect.

When the chatter from upstate about the fragility of the DPD's case against Oswald is hocked about, Fritz organises the hit on Oswald. Quite possibly with the help of intel section from Treasury. This could have happened in reverse order. Intel from the SS Treasury could have leaned on Fritz and he would have happily obliged.

There was a lot of skeletons in them there closets down in at the DPD and City Hall. Fritz and Wade had been running amok for over 20 years running Dallas their way. Fritz and Wade quite possibly didn't want too may prying eyes not the least with an impending court case looming should Oswald have lived. Not with the worlds eyes sharply focused on them and their dirty ways.

just an opinion, thinking out loud.
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Re: Fritz, and Hoover - not the happy campers.

on Sat 26 Jan 2019, 1:52 pm
That's a decent answer to my question in the other thread. Thanks Mick.

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Re: Fritz, and Hoover - not the happy campers.

on Mon 28 Jan 2019, 11:55 am
Dallas Observer:


Sourced from the recently released memo from the latest batch of JFK related documents.


J. Edgar Hoover was exasperated on the afternoon of Nov. 24, 1963. President John F. Kennedy had been dead for two days when the head of the FBI received word that his killer, Lee Harvey Oswald, had been murdered while in police custody. He knew who to blame, too: Dallas police Chief Jesse Curry and homicide Capt. Will Fritz. He said so in a memo written just 45 minutes after doctors declared Oswald dead at Parkland Hospital.
"Last night we received a call from our Dallas office from a man talking in a calm voice and saying he was a member of a committee organized to kill Oswald," he wrote in a previously classified report that the National Archives released to the public late last week (and included at the end of this article). "We at once notified the Chief of Police and he assured us Oswald would be given sufficient protection. This morning we called the Chief of Police again warning of this possibility of some effort against Oswald and he again assured us adequate protection would be given. However this was not done."




"Oswald having been killed today after our warnings to the Dallas Police Department was inexcusable," he railed. Hoover being Hoover, he also saw progressives using the killing as ammunition against his agency. "It will allow, I am afraid, a lot of civil rights people to raise a lot of hell because he was handcuffed and had no weapon," he said. "There are bound to be some elements of our society who will holler their heads off that his civil rights were violated — which they were."
During questioning with Warren Commission staffers in 1964, Curry said he didn't recall any FBI agents relaying a message from Washington that Hoover was concerned with Oswald's security. "Specifically, I don't remember anyone coming to me and telling me that," he said.  
It wasn't the only time Dallas police sparred with Hoover. For the two cops mentioned in the memo, it was the start of a lifetime spent dealing with aftermath of the two murders. For the chief, it sparked a ruinous conflict with the FBI, a book deal and public comments that questioned the single-bullet theory. For the detective, it meant keeping his role in the momentous event out of the public eye and choosing a quiet life. And for Hoover, it meant defending his agency, even if it required spinning the truth about what the feds knew about Oswald before the president was killed.
Help and pressure from Washington
Hoover's ego regarding the FBI is legendary, so maybe it's not too surprising that he claimed his agents made the case against Oswald. "They did not really have a case against Oswald until we gave them our information," Hoover said in the Nov. 24 memo. "We traced the weapon, we identified the handwriting, we identified the fingerprints on the brown bag." 
It's true that FBI agents were investigating from the start. FBI agents joined police during the first interviews with Oswald and had a hand in processing most of the physical evidence. In the case of the brown bag, the FBI lab used silver nitrate to develop a latent palm print and fingerprint on the bag found at the school book depository that held the rifle. Most of the physical evidence of the case was sent to the FBI's lab, which had specialized equipment. The Dallas police dusted for prints and shipped the stuff off to Washington.
Dallas police had eyewitnesses to build their case. Having an eyewitness to a murder and others who could build a timeline is essential police work, but Hoover devalued this and took the opportunity to laud his lab techs. "All the Dallas Police had was three witnesses who tentatively identified him as the man who shot the policeman and boarded a bus shortly after the president was killed," he sneered in the memo.
Fritz headed homicide team at DPD. He joined DPD in 1921 and reportedly had been part of the squad that hunted Bonnie and Clyde. Carlton Stowers, an author and former Dallas Observer staffer, described Fritz in his book Partners in Blue as someone who organized a seemingly well-run department and didn't appreciate interference from the brass. His competency seems demonstrated by a 10-year span with a reported 98 percent clearance rate of the murders in Dallas. The rate of today's department hovers at around 50 percent. 




Capt. Will Fritz was with Lee Harvey Oswald when he was shot.


Unfortunately not exactly with him when Ruby Lunged forward with a revolver.


Fritz knew of the threat, So did Curry. 
Fritz' negligence got Oswald killed. Plain and simple. Like Hoover said they knew of the threat and did jack shit about it.
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Re: Fritz, and Hoover - not the happy campers.

on Tue 29 Jan 2019, 11:31 am
Who had the most to gain from Oswald's death?

Ruby- acting spontaneously and alone or as the assigned killer?

Hoover -because they had been exposed for tracking Oswald's movement's prior to the assassination?

President Johnson- not wanting a three ring circus after receiving advice from Hoover?

The mob-via so called connections with Ruby?

Fritz-who had used lies, deception and manufactured evidence (some of it from the FBI) to lay two false charges of murder against his suspect?

There are probably more names you could add to the list but these are surely the primary suspects.

Who had the connection to Ruby? Who had a reason to kill Oswald? Who had the most motive to want oswald dead, and who had the means to execute the plan to murder Oswald in a secure isolated location such as the DPD basement during oswald's transfer. Who knew exactly when oswald would have walked through those basement doors? Who knew of the intimate details of the transfer?

I  believe that John Will Fritz did have Oswald murdered over the most basic instinct known to man. Fear of being caught and exposed. Plain and simple.
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Re: Fritz, and Hoover - not the happy campers.

on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 12:09 pm
Mick Purdy wrote:Who had the most to gain from Oswald's death?

Ruby- acting spontaneously and alone or as the assigned killer?

Hoover -because they had been exposed for tracking Oswald's movement's prior to the assassination?

President Johnson- not wanting a three ring circus after receiving advice from Hoover?

The mob-via so called connections with Ruby?

Fritz-who had used lies, deception and manufactured evidence (some of it from the FBI) to lay two false charges of murder against his suspect?

There are probably more names you could add to the list but these are surely the primary suspects.

Who had the connection to Ruby? Who had a reason to kill Oswald? Who had the most motive to want oswald dead, and who had the means to execute the plan to murder Oswald in a secure isolated location such as the DPD basement during oswald's transfer. Who knew exactly when oswald would have walked through those basement doors? Who knew of the intimate details of the transfer?

I  believe that John Will Fritz did have Oswald murdered over the most basic instinct known to man. Fear of being caught and exposed. Plain and simple.

Yes, in a normal murder you look for motive. In the JFK assassination it has always been assumed to be political.

Deep state is most often claimed as the culprit.

So too do they say the same about Oswald's assassination but here you touch on the real issue: motive.

Why would Fritz want Oswald put away so quickly?

If Oswald should actually go to trial, what might be revealed?

I think there is one hell of a lot more to DallAss than most people have ventured.

Dig deep and I'm sure the body count will only go UP.

Keep digging, Mick.

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