Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
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- Vinny
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Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Wed 10 Jul 2019, 4:09 pm
First topic message reminder :
https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/why-officer-tippit-stopped-his-killer
New article at Jim's site. Claims that Officer Tippit was likely murdered in an attempt to further the same conspiracy.
Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/why-officer-tippit-stopped-his-killer
New article at Jim's site. Claims that Officer Tippit was likely murdered in an attempt to further the same conspiracy.
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Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Thu 09 Feb 2023, 2:36 pm
He was also an international arms dealer and ladies garment unionist in NY and a commie-ringleader in Muncie Indiana while stationed elswhere in the army. Possibly also a snitch for Nixon.lanceman wrote:Could he have picked up the spare uniform from the cleaners or perhaps intended to take it to the cleaners?
Wasn’t Ruby supposed to be at Parkland Hospital at about the time of the Tippit murder, per Seth Kantor? Kantor seems very credible but I have some difficulty with no one else seeing the gregarious Ruby at the hospital. Ruby was also supposed to have delivered guns to the grassy knoll, been at tge Dallas Times Herald, at the Terminal Annex Building and in front of the TSBD.
Maybe it’s time for a Jack and Leon scenario a la Harvey and Lee.
The doppelgangers could have used a good organizer like Jack to form a union to protect their interests and copyrights.
Your first statement could be all there is to it - but it is still predicated on an unproven premise - that what we see is in fact a uniform.
- Garn G
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Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Thu 09 Feb 2023, 3:23 pm
lanceman wrote:Could he have picked up the spare uniform from the cleaners or perhaps intended to take it to the cleaners?
Wasn’t Ruby supposed to be at Parkland Hospital at about the time of the Tippit murder, per Seth Kantor? Kantor seems very credible but I have some difficulty with no one else seeing the gregarious Ruby at the hospital. Ruby was also supposed to have delivered guns to the grassy knoll, been at tge Dallas Times Herald, at the Terminal Annex Building and in front of the TSBD.
Maybe it’s time for a Jack and Leon scenario a la Harvey and Lee.
no. it's never time for that.
- lanceman
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Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Thu 09 Feb 2023, 3:38 pm
Just so there’s no misunderstanding, the Jack and Leon proposed hypothesis was made in jest.
However, senator Barry Goldwater, who was JFK’s likely opponent in 1964 and had the most to gain from his death cui bono-wise was supposedly in Muncie, Indiana on the day of the assassination. His cover story was that he was there for the funeral of his mother in law. However, it may have been to meet with Jack. Or was it Leon?
However, senator Barry Goldwater, who was JFK’s likely opponent in 1964 and had the most to gain from his death cui bono-wise was supposedly in Muncie, Indiana on the day of the assassination. His cover story was that he was there for the funeral of his mother in law. However, it may have been to meet with Jack. Or was it Leon?
- Vinny
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Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Sat 11 Feb 2023, 8:39 pm
Article Terms Inquiry Into Tippit Slaying Inadequate.
https://www.nytimes.com/1964/10/12/archives/study-sees-gaps-in-warrendata-article-terms-inquiry-into-tippit.html
https://www.nytimes.com/1964/10/12/archives/study-sees-gaps-in-warrendata-article-terms-inquiry-into-tippit.html
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- lanceman
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Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Sun 12 Feb 2023, 3:31 am
Looking at how Tippit’s car was positioned, offset from the curb by a few feet, angled away from the curb and blocking a driveway, it suggests Tippit made a sudden, unplanned stop. He did not roll down the passenger side window but instead spoke to his killer through the vent window. One transcript of the DPD tapes shows he made two attempts to contact the dispatcher that were unacknowledged. Another transcript does not show this but does show a single unacknowledged call to the dispatcher from #58 (Tippit was #78) at about 1:07. Something that the killer said to Tippit made Tippit decide to immediately leave his vehicle. It’s hard to believe that the killer would pass his wallet or ID through the vent window and that if something was amiss, that Tippit would have returned it so quickly. There is no report of the killer retrieving anything from the car before fleeing.
It seems at least as likely that Tippit’s killer flagged him down.
It seems at least as likely that Tippit’s killer flagged him down.
- Garn G
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Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Sun 12 Feb 2023, 9:10 am
Vinny wrote:Article Terms Inquiry Into Tippit Slaying Inadequate.
it's paywalled sadly...
- Vinny
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Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Sun 12 Feb 2023, 8:36 pm
Garn G wrote:Vinny wrote:Article Terms Inquiry Into Tippit Slaying Inadequate.
it's paywalled sadly...
Here is the article.
A Columbia University research team has charged that the Warren Commission failed to interview all persons able to give information about the assassination of President Kennedy and the slaying of Patrolman J. D. Tippit in Dallas last Nov. 22.
George and Patricia Nash, a husband and wife who are research assistants at the university's Bureau of Applied Social Research, also declared that the commission's report “is less than complete.”
In that connection, the Nashes cited their data on the personnel and facilities at the Texas School Book Depository, from which the shots that killed the President were fired.
Their findings, based on an Independent two‐week study in Dallas that included interviews with some of the witnesses, are published in today's issue of The New Leader, a biweekly magazine sponsored by the American Labor Conference on International Affairs, Inc.
The magazine article, called “The Other Witnesses,” says that the Warren Commission failed to question all those who saw the slaying of Patrolman Tippit, the Dallas police offices who was said to have stopped and questioned the President's assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald.
The Nashes asserted they were able to locate two persons who were not questioned. They were Mr, and Mrs. Frank Wright, who lived in an apartment about half a block from the site of the patrolman's murder.
The authors, describing Mr. Wright's report on what he saw when the patrolman was killed, conclude with a quote from him:
“I knew a man drove off in a gray car. Nothing in the world's going to change my opinion. I saw a man drive off in a gray coupe just as clear as I was born. They can say all they want about a fellow running away, but I can't accept this because I saw a fellow get in a car and drive away.”
Noting that Mr. Wright's story differed sharply from the Warren Commission Report, the Nashes commented:
“We have no way of knowing how the investigation could have ignored Wright, whether his memory is accurate, or whether a plausible explanation for the mysterious man in the car might be a passerby unwilling to be a witness. Why didn't this account come to the commission's attention?”
The Nashes also point out that Mrs. Wright called for an ambulance and that the police records show it was her call that led to a response from the Dudley M. Hughes Funeral Home. The ambulance driver, Clayton Butler, also was not questioned by the commission, according to the authors.
Turning to the Warren Report, the Nashes noted that the commission had relied on testimony from Mrs. Helen Louise Markham on the Tippit slaying, and they described this information as “in direct contradiction” with that garnered from the people they interviewed.
On this point, the authors conclude:
“It appears quite possible that Mrs. Markham came on the scene only after hearing the shots; and without Mrs. Markham, there Is no one to say precisely what’ happened between Tippit and Oswald.”
The Nashes also said the commission's report had “unresolved or untouched” these points:
¶Information on a second witness to the Tippit slaying interviewed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. She was identified as Acquilla Clemmons.
¶The proximity of the site of the Tippit slaying to the home of Jack Ruby, who later killed Oswald in the Dallas prison.
¶The fact that at least one other man working in the Texas School Book Depository, from which Oswald was’ said to have fired the rifle that killed the President, was missing from the sixth‐floor work crew.
¶The fact that there were four separate “rear doors, all of which were open and only one of which was guarded,” at the depository.
Declaring that their aim was not to. establish “any person's guilt or innocence,” the Nashes said they had undertaken the study “to demonstrate that future historians and social scientists will not be able to reconstruct what occurred from the commission's report alone.”
As the years pass, they concluded, “questions will become increasingly difficult to answer with any degree of accuracy.”
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- lanceman
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Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Sat 24 Jun 2023, 2:14 am
If Tippit was parked at the GLOCO gas/petrol station shortly before 1:00 PM and suddenly departed, how did he get the message that caused him to suddenly depart? No messages in the police tapes or transcripts would explain this behavior. None of the five witnesses who placed Tippit at the scene saw anyone talk to him to who might have prompted Tippit to suddenly leave.
If Tippit did spot Oswald in the taxi crossing the viaduct, why did Tippit proceed down Marsalis St. when the taxi was continuing on to Beckley St.? How did Tippit know to be on the lookout for a taxi since the decision to take a taxi was an impromptu decision made only moments before?
If it was the Marsalis bus that caused Tippit to suddenly depart, why would Tippit have to pursue at a high rate of speed as buses make frequent stops? Further, Tippit could not have spotted Oswald since Oswald (according to the official story) was not on that bus.
If Tippit did spot Oswald in the taxi crossing the viaduct, why did Tippit proceed down Marsalis St. when the taxi was continuing on to Beckley St.? How did Tippit know to be on the lookout for a taxi since the decision to take a taxi was an impromptu decision made only moments before?
If it was the Marsalis bus that caused Tippit to suddenly depart, why would Tippit have to pursue at a high rate of speed as buses make frequent stops? Further, Tippit could not have spotted Oswald since Oswald (according to the official story) was not on that bus.
Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Sat 24 Jun 2023, 6:59 am
George Nash
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tLRToxTdEwERSqQqXjBdLnppsQbCpw83/view?usp=sharing
Thanks to Malcolm Blunt, scans by me.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tLRToxTdEwERSqQqXjBdLnppsQbCpw83/view?usp=sharing
Thanks to Malcolm Blunt, scans by me.
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- Vinny
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Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Sat 24 Jun 2023, 6:38 pm
Thanks Bart.
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- Vinny
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Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Fri 30 Jun 2023, 1:45 am
lanceman wrote:If Tippit was parked at the GLOCO gas/petrol station shortly before 1:00 PM and suddenly departed, how did he get the message that caused him to suddenly depart? No messages in the police tapes or transcripts would explain this behavior. None of the five witnesses who placed Tippit at the scene saw anyone talk to him to who might have prompted Tippit to suddenly leave.
If Tippit did spot Oswald in the taxi crossing the viaduct, why did Tippit proceed down Marsalis St. when the taxi was continuing on to Beckley St.? How did Tippit know to be on the lookout for a taxi since the decision to take a taxi was an impromptu decision made only moments before?
If it was the Marsalis bus that caused Tippit to suddenly depart, why would Tippit have to pursue at a high rate of speed as buses make frequent stops? Further, Tippit could not have spotted Oswald since Oswald (according to the official story) was not on that bus.
Tippit's murder had nothing to do with Oswald. Tippit was most probably killed by James Markham or one of his fellow gang members. Greg has made quite a compelling argument regarding that.
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- lanceman
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Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Fri 30 Jun 2023, 4:37 am
The Bill Drenas timeline which puts Tippit at the GLOCO station between 12:45 and 1:00 PM is often used to tie Tippit in with the assassination.
The GLOCO station was located at a point where Zangs and Marsalis intersected. Since Whaley’s taxi was proceeding south on Zangs, it was in the farthest lane from Tippit’s view and any front seat passenger would have been on the other side of the driver. How likely is it that an observer from perhaps 100 feet away could recognize someone in that position in a moving vehicle? And that’s assuming he was not looking for a bus which would have been going down Marsalis on the other side of the GLOCO station.
I mentioned that Tippit left the GLOCO station and sped down Marsalis. He then turned on to Lancaster which would not put him in a position to intercept the taxi which headed down Zangs and turned on to Beckley.
The only reason I can see to account for this behavior that could possibly tie into the assassination is that Tippit was expecting the Marsalis bus which should have passed by sometime between 12:45 and 1:00 PM but was delayed. But then, why not wait near a known bus stop?
I suspect that Tippit’s activities just prior to his death have something to do with corruption, an unplanned encounter with someone he had previously arrested or had a previous altercation with during one of his moonlighting jobs or an extramarital affair.
Warren Reynolds stated that he thought the shots were related to a “marital dispute” which I find a strange assumption to make about shots fired out of sight and a block away. I think he must have heard something when he was at the shooting scene later.
The GLOCO station was located at a point where Zangs and Marsalis intersected. Since Whaley’s taxi was proceeding south on Zangs, it was in the farthest lane from Tippit’s view and any front seat passenger would have been on the other side of the driver. How likely is it that an observer from perhaps 100 feet away could recognize someone in that position in a moving vehicle? And that’s assuming he was not looking for a bus which would have been going down Marsalis on the other side of the GLOCO station.
I mentioned that Tippit left the GLOCO station and sped down Marsalis. He then turned on to Lancaster which would not put him in a position to intercept the taxi which headed down Zangs and turned on to Beckley.
The only reason I can see to account for this behavior that could possibly tie into the assassination is that Tippit was expecting the Marsalis bus which should have passed by sometime between 12:45 and 1:00 PM but was delayed. But then, why not wait near a known bus stop?
I suspect that Tippit’s activities just prior to his death have something to do with corruption, an unplanned encounter with someone he had previously arrested or had a previous altercation with during one of his moonlighting jobs or an extramarital affair.
Warren Reynolds stated that he thought the shots were related to a “marital dispute” which I find a strange assumption to make about shots fired out of sight and a block away. I think he must have heard something when he was at the shooting scene later.
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Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Mon 17 Jul 2023, 9:10 am
bump
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Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Mon 17 Jul 2023, 11:33 am
Tippit’s alleged movements on Nov 22, 1963
This is based on the research of Bill Drenas who attempted to trace Tippit’s movements in the lead-up to his death.
Dobbs House 10:00 AM
In Drenas’ original essay, he had Tippit at Dobbs House at about 10:00 AM on the morning of the assassination, based on the FBI interview with Dobbs House waitress Mary Ada (spelled ͞Adda͟in the FBI report) Dowling. The problem is that what Dowling told the FBI was that Tippit had been in Dobbs House on Wednesday, November 20 at the same time as a person she thought to be Oswald, and then later said that Tippit was usually there for a coffee each morning at 10:00 AM or shortly thereafter. In other words, she said nothing specifically about Tippit being there on Friday morning at 10 AM. Indeed, Drenas would later locate a mark out record showing that Tippit was on a Signal Code 4 between 9:56 AM and 10:17 AM at 2800 East Illinois Ave which was the location of the Aluminum Screen Manufacturing Company. A signal Code 4 officially meant that an officer was ͞out on investigation͟. The dispatcher on duty at the time, Murray Jackson however, gave a more nuanced definition. According to Murray, a Signal Code 4 was used for ͞non-specific͟actions that would result in the officer being away from the police radio because said officer ͞wants or needs to do something͟.
Gloco Gas Station, 1502 North Zangs 12:45 PM – 1:00
According to Drenas, former FBI agent William Turner tracked down 5 witnesses to Tippit being at the Gloco Gas Station between 12:45 PM and 1: 00 PM on the day of the assassination. This was for a 1966 Ramparts article. These witnesses were photographer Al Volkland and his wife, Lou, and Gloco employees Tom Mullins, Emmett Hollingshead and JB ͞Shorty Lewis. According to the witnesses, Tippit appeared to be watching the traffic coming over the Houston St viaduct for about 10 minutes or so before ͞tearing off͟down Lancaster.
The problems with this story are many.
1. It is not explained how Turner found these witnesses.
2. All 5 witnesses claimed to know Tippit – yet this gas station was not near his home, nor was it in his assigned patrol area.
3. The police radio logs show he called in his location as ͞about Keist and Bonnie View͟at 12:45 PM. This was within his assigned area and is about 5 miles from the Gloco. At 12:54, he gave his location as Lancaster and Eighth.
4. Calling in false locations to cover being outside your assigned area would seem foolhardy. What if an emergency occurred within a block of the called location, and the dispatcher, believing that to be his location, sends him to deal with it? How is he going to explain the length of time it takes him to get there?
5. Drenas asserts that there is no indication that any of these 5 witnesses were ever interviewed by any investigative body. This is not true. Both Mullins and Lewis were interviewed, along with another employee, James Sutton – Mullins on Feb 10, 1964 and the other two a week later.
6. The interviews were conducted because of information received to the effect that both Ruby and Oswald had been customers of the station in the past.
7. The information had come from the Austin brother of Bill Winter of Minnesota who was looking for the site of the assassination. Winter had taken a wrong road and pulled into the Gloco for directions. He was told about Ruby and Oswald being customers during that discussion.
8. It was obvious from the interviews of the employees, that the Gloco, with its mix of local and intra and interstate customers, was to the Dallas assassination rumor industry what Mary was to typhoid.
9. None of the three admitted remembering Winter. However, they did indicate that they had many people stopping for directions to Dealey Plaza. All three also denied that Oswald was a customer, while agreeing that Ruby had been.
10. Most important of all – none took the opportunity to tell the FBI that Tippit had been to the station acting like a lookout shortly before he was killed. The story picked up by Turner and pursued since by others is no more than a classic example of good ol’ boy Texan story telling. They wanted to be helpful to all those nice authors to the point that they even gratuitously threw in that Tippit ͞tore off͟ in the direction of Ruby’s apartment - and those nice authors reciprocated by asking none of the hard questions – starting with how did they all knew Tippit when he did not live or work in that area, and why not one of them contacted authorities with this important information – information they knew full well would be important if true – hence the specific mention of Tippit heading in Ruby’s direction?
The Top 1 0 Phone Call
In summary, the two witnesses here, store owner Dub Stark and sales assistant Louis Cortinas claimed that Tippit came rushing into the store and asked to use the phone – something they claimed he had done a few times in the past. He was in such a hurry that he pushed past customers. The call however, seemed to go unanswered as he let it ring 8 to 10 times before hanging up and rushing out. Cortinas stated he watched Tippit go to his car parked on Bishop Ave and run a stop sign turning onto Sunset. In part 3 of Drena’s article on Tippi’s movements, he lists all the objections he had received concerned Tippit’s alleged stop at the Top 10. We will go through them here:
Cortinas could not have seen if Tippit’s squad car was parked on Bishop. Drenas found that this was true but that Cortinas surmised that it was parked on Bishop from watching the direction in which Tippit walked and the direction from in which his car came.
My comment: Possible.
Cortinas could not have seen Tippit run a stop sign and turn onto Sunset from behind the counter. Drenas found this was possible by looking through the windows of cars that would otherwise block the view.
My comment: Possible but may be stretching credulity.
Tippit had to have left the Top Ten more than 10 minutes before it was announced on the radio that a police officer was killed. Drenas gives this a free pass on the basis that time perception is extremely subjective and on the basis that ͞we will probably never know the exact time that Tippit left the Top Ten or the exact moment he was killed.͟
My comment: Drenas is correct about time perception. But he makes a logical error after that by assuming the thing under question (Tippit being in the Top Ten) is true in order to help cloud a timing issue tied to the very questioning of its truthfulness. It is also false that we cannot get close to accurate on the time that Tippit was shot. We have Helen Markham, an eyewitness who shows the murder happened prior to 1:06 because she was on her way to catch a bus due at that time. There is also a police supplementary report that gave the time of death as 1:00 but was altered to read 1:15. The Death Certificate meanwhile claims he was injured at 1:18 and died at 1:15. But it does not end there. There is a Secret Service document dated December 1, 1963, which has a timeline based on ͞information available͟. It goes on to say ͞these sequences are to be checked against the radio reports (police dispatch) here. The timing seems to compare favorably with times given in other official reports. The flight (of Oswald) and timing are as follows:
At the bottom of the time-line, it states, ͞On November 22, 1963, at approximately 1: 00 PM, police patrolman JD Tippit of the Dallas Police Department was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald.͟ Despite this, the previous amounts of time allotted for each segment of alleged travel, gets Oswald to the Tippit murder site no sooner than approximately 1:13 PM.
The Secret Service was claiming Oswald killed Tippit twice within the space of 15 minutes. Either we are looking at the start of the Zombie Apocalypse, or some seriously rigged/flawed evidence.
The Secret Service got around the dilemma by issuing a memo a few days later with the same information, but minus any reference to Tippit being killed at ͞approximately 1:00 PM͟. Ironically, the most reliable evidence for the timing comes from an unreliable eyewitness to the murder; the aforementioned Helen Markham, because the single verifiable thing she stated was what time her bus was due. But Markham was not alone. There was another witness who put the time at about 1:00 PM – Frank Cimino.
The Top Ten was too far from Tippit’s patrol district for Tippit to use a telephone there whilst on duty.
Drenas relies on various other officers to declare that there were times when officers were called upon to cover neighboring patrol districts and that this may have provided opportunity in the past to use the phone at the Top Ten.
My comment: Using the Attorney General’s Tippit file, the closest Drenas was able to place Tippit to the Top Ten over the previous years was 1.5 miles. I am certain Tippit’s own patrol area had shops and phone booths he could utilize if needed for calls.
The fact that it was said that Tippit did not have his partner with him is also somewhat telling. According to Officer McDonald, Tippit had no partner when working in daylight hours – no one did unless they had a trainee, and according to McDonald, Tippit was not a designated trainer. It is unlikely that the Top Ten was open at night, so whoever it was who would come in there to use the phone, it could not have been Tippit – it was someone who regularly had a trainee with him. It is noted the first police officer at the scene of the Tippit murder was reserve sergeant and part-time professional cowboy, Kenneth Croy. Croy’s testimony may well indicate if any officer made a phone call from the Top Ten, it was very likely him. That testimony is reproduced below:
Mr. CROY. No. I was standing at the scene, and there had been several reports. One, that he, of course, they said that the killer did go into a church, which was in sight of where they were at. And another report, that he had gone into the library over on Jefferson. And they had all, most of the officers except maybe one or two had left the scene where Tippit was killed and gone to the spot. And as I got ready to leave, there was another report that he ran into the Texas Theatre, a man fitting Oswald's description had ran into the Texas Theatre.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was about the time you got into the automobile?
Mr. CROY. Just as I was fixing to leave.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have your police radio on in your car?
Mr. CROY. Yes. Mr. GRIFFIN. So you drove over there by the--near the theatre?
Mr. CROY. Well, I drove on up 10th Street. I believe it was 10th Street. On up to Zangs, and when I got to Zangs, took a left, and at the end of Zangs, at the corner of Zangs and Jefferson, it is just a block away, I could see them rushing out to the front and the back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do as you saw them rushing out?
Mr. CROY. They had more help than they needed, so I went on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue to listen to your police radio?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear anything more over the radio about what happened?
Mr. CROY. No. I only had channel 1 on my radio.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far a drive is it from the Texas Theatre to where you live?
Mr. CROY. About 3 miles.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long does it take to drive that distance?
Mr. CROY. About 10 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually see these men rushing into the Texas Theatre from your automobile?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know they were going into the, men were rushing into the theatre just as you went by?
Mr. CROY. There were three cars in the back and about three in the front, and there wasn't nobody in them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You drove right by the front of the theatre?
Mr. CROY. I drove within a block, but it is a big, wide street there, and there is an alley and nothing on the other side of the street, parking lots.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many cars could you see there?
Mr. CROY. I would say there were two or three in the back and two or three in the front, plus another on the way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, the street that you took, did that go by the front or the back of the theatre?
Mr. CROY. It didn't go by either one of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which street was that?
Mr. CROY. Zangs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many blocks is it from the theatre?
Mr. CROY. One.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Whatstreet is the theatre on?
Mr. CROY. Jefferson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What street does it back on to?
Mr. CROY. It backs into an alley.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Into the alley?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many feet would you say that Jefferson or the Texas Theatre is from Zangs?
Mr. CROY. I don't know. I would say not a very long block.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you were driving up Zangs, I take it you were driving away from town?
Mr. CROY. South.
Mr. GRIFFIN. South on Zangs at Jefferson?
Mr. CROY. Yes. Mr.
GRIFFIN. Did you continue south?
Mr. CROY. I continued south.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you proceed to your home from there?
Mr. CROY. Well, I didn't go home. I went to eat.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go to eat?
Mr. CROY. Austin Barbecue.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located?
Mr. CROY. On the corner of Hampton and Illinois.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you get to Hampton and Illinois?
Mr. CROY. From Zangs to Illinois.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what direction?
Mr. CROY. West.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that left or right?
Mr. CROY. It is a right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then how far up Illinois to Hampton?
Mr. CROY. Oh, I would say a long ways. It is a good stretch. Zangs Place is about the 300 or 400 block and Illinois intersects at about the 2100 or 2200 block.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far driving was it from the Texas Theatre to this place that you had dinner or lunch?
Mr. CROY. Well, it is about three-quarters of a mile from my house, so it is 3 miles from there, so about 2 1/3 miles.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from the diner what route did you drive to your house?
Mr. CROY. Straight up Illinois, west on Illinois.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is your house on Illinois?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what time you arrived at the diner?
Mr. CROY. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody there that you knew?
Mr. CROY. My wife.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have an appointment to meet your wife there?
Mr. CROY. Yes
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time was your appointment?
Mr. CROY. Well, I saw her downtown and I was supposed to have gone right straight over there. I was supposed to have gone by my mother's, and I got detoured down at Tippit, and I was a little bit late, and she was a little mad.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time you were supposed to meet her? Mr. CROY. No; I just saw her downtown, and we were going to eat. She was in her car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see her downtown? Where were you and she when you saw each other?
Mr. CROY. At the courthouse. She pulled up beside me. I asked if anybody needed me there, and they said, "No," and here she comes and I said, "Do you want to get something to eat?" And she said, "Yes."
Mr. GRIFFIN. You said you would be right there?
Mr. CROY. I was going to change my uniform and my clothes were over at my mother's and dad's.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So then as you drove out to change your clothes, what did you do? Did you hear something? How did you happen to get over to Tippit's place on the way home?
Mr. CROY. I was on the corner of Zangs and Colorado on my way to my mother's and dad's house at that particular time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why were you going to change your clothes at your mother's and dad'house? Did you live at your mother's and dad's house at that particular time?
Mr. CROY. Yes. I did for about that 2 weeks.
It appears that Croy was running late to meet his wife due to the Tippit murder and may have stopped at the Top Ten to try and contact her to let her know he wouldn’t be much longer. Since no one apparently answered, she most likely had already left to go to the agreed meeting spot at the court house. This would explain why the officer tore off in such a hurry. There is no wrath quite like the wrath of a wife kept waiting by a delinquent cowboy. His living at his parents’ place for a short period may also indicate that the marriage was on the rocks and this meeting for lunch was an attempt at smoothing things out. In this scenario, we have to accept that the witnesses mistook Croy for Tippit although they may have been close on the timing, having claimed it was about 10 minutes prior to Tippit’s murder being announced through the media. If they did get the timing right, as previously noted, it could not have been Tippit.
--------------------
More here https://gregrparker.com/essays/jd-tippit-an-alternative-solution/
This is just the cherry-picked CT timeline that is every bit as dodgy as the cherry-picked WC timeline. No sighting of any player can be exempt from folding into the conspiracy, and no investigation will be done to test the veracity of such sightings.
The whole LN/CT thing is just a microcosm of society at large.
We don't like the MSM.
Okay, so we created our own alternative media. But the alternative is no better - and in some cases far worse, though both MSM and alternative do have small pockets of real and unbiased investigative journalism, it gets lost in the deluge of bullshit. This fracturing led to...
the creation of "alternative facts" and the normalizing and widespread use of same, spreading from both MSM and more noticeably, alternative media, into political talking points and general discourse. Of course, politicians stretching and spinning the truth is as old as politics itself - but this has taken it into the stratasphere. The BIG LIE is no longer off limits.
So this case for me, is not just about justice for JFK and Oswald, or correcting history - it is now also, to whatever extent possible, about creating awareness of the dangers to society posed by the lies on both sides of the coin.
It is in short, an existential battle for a sane planet.
But it is just one battle, and there will be a need for many more in many other battle-grounds.
PS this is not meant as a clarion call. Nor that I am suddenly taking myself too seriously. How can I? My wife just gleefully informed me that I have been traipsing around town all morning with my pullover on inside out.
This is based on the research of Bill Drenas who attempted to trace Tippit’s movements in the lead-up to his death.
Dobbs House 10:00 AM
In Drenas’ original essay, he had Tippit at Dobbs House at about 10:00 AM on the morning of the assassination, based on the FBI interview with Dobbs House waitress Mary Ada (spelled ͞Adda͟in the FBI report) Dowling. The problem is that what Dowling told the FBI was that Tippit had been in Dobbs House on Wednesday, November 20 at the same time as a person she thought to be Oswald, and then later said that Tippit was usually there for a coffee each morning at 10:00 AM or shortly thereafter. In other words, she said nothing specifically about Tippit being there on Friday morning at 10 AM. Indeed, Drenas would later locate a mark out record showing that Tippit was on a Signal Code 4 between 9:56 AM and 10:17 AM at 2800 East Illinois Ave which was the location of the Aluminum Screen Manufacturing Company. A signal Code 4 officially meant that an officer was ͞out on investigation͟. The dispatcher on duty at the time, Murray Jackson however, gave a more nuanced definition. According to Murray, a Signal Code 4 was used for ͞non-specific͟actions that would result in the officer being away from the police radio because said officer ͞wants or needs to do something͟.
Gloco Gas Station, 1502 North Zangs 12:45 PM – 1:00
According to Drenas, former FBI agent William Turner tracked down 5 witnesses to Tippit being at the Gloco Gas Station between 12:45 PM and 1: 00 PM on the day of the assassination. This was for a 1966 Ramparts article. These witnesses were photographer Al Volkland and his wife, Lou, and Gloco employees Tom Mullins, Emmett Hollingshead and JB ͞Shorty Lewis. According to the witnesses, Tippit appeared to be watching the traffic coming over the Houston St viaduct for about 10 minutes or so before ͞tearing off͟down Lancaster.
The problems with this story are many.
1. It is not explained how Turner found these witnesses.
2. All 5 witnesses claimed to know Tippit – yet this gas station was not near his home, nor was it in his assigned patrol area.
3. The police radio logs show he called in his location as ͞about Keist and Bonnie View͟at 12:45 PM. This was within his assigned area and is about 5 miles from the Gloco. At 12:54, he gave his location as Lancaster and Eighth.
4. Calling in false locations to cover being outside your assigned area would seem foolhardy. What if an emergency occurred within a block of the called location, and the dispatcher, believing that to be his location, sends him to deal with it? How is he going to explain the length of time it takes him to get there?
5. Drenas asserts that there is no indication that any of these 5 witnesses were ever interviewed by any investigative body. This is not true. Both Mullins and Lewis were interviewed, along with another employee, James Sutton – Mullins on Feb 10, 1964 and the other two a week later.
6. The interviews were conducted because of information received to the effect that both Ruby and Oswald had been customers of the station in the past.
7. The information had come from the Austin brother of Bill Winter of Minnesota who was looking for the site of the assassination. Winter had taken a wrong road and pulled into the Gloco for directions. He was told about Ruby and Oswald being customers during that discussion.
8. It was obvious from the interviews of the employees, that the Gloco, with its mix of local and intra and interstate customers, was to the Dallas assassination rumor industry what Mary was to typhoid.
9. None of the three admitted remembering Winter. However, they did indicate that they had many people stopping for directions to Dealey Plaza. All three also denied that Oswald was a customer, while agreeing that Ruby had been.
10. Most important of all – none took the opportunity to tell the FBI that Tippit had been to the station acting like a lookout shortly before he was killed. The story picked up by Turner and pursued since by others is no more than a classic example of good ol’ boy Texan story telling. They wanted to be helpful to all those nice authors to the point that they even gratuitously threw in that Tippit ͞tore off͟ in the direction of Ruby’s apartment - and those nice authors reciprocated by asking none of the hard questions – starting with how did they all knew Tippit when he did not live or work in that area, and why not one of them contacted authorities with this important information – information they knew full well would be important if true – hence the specific mention of Tippit heading in Ruby’s direction?
The Top 1 0 Phone Call
In summary, the two witnesses here, store owner Dub Stark and sales assistant Louis Cortinas claimed that Tippit came rushing into the store and asked to use the phone – something they claimed he had done a few times in the past. He was in such a hurry that he pushed past customers. The call however, seemed to go unanswered as he let it ring 8 to 10 times before hanging up and rushing out. Cortinas stated he watched Tippit go to his car parked on Bishop Ave and run a stop sign turning onto Sunset. In part 3 of Drena’s article on Tippi’s movements, he lists all the objections he had received concerned Tippit’s alleged stop at the Top 10. We will go through them here:
Cortinas could not have seen if Tippit’s squad car was parked on Bishop. Drenas found that this was true but that Cortinas surmised that it was parked on Bishop from watching the direction in which Tippit walked and the direction from in which his car came.
My comment: Possible.
Cortinas could not have seen Tippit run a stop sign and turn onto Sunset from behind the counter. Drenas found this was possible by looking through the windows of cars that would otherwise block the view.
My comment: Possible but may be stretching credulity.
Tippit had to have left the Top Ten more than 10 minutes before it was announced on the radio that a police officer was killed. Drenas gives this a free pass on the basis that time perception is extremely subjective and on the basis that ͞we will probably never know the exact time that Tippit left the Top Ten or the exact moment he was killed.͟
My comment: Drenas is correct about time perception. But he makes a logical error after that by assuming the thing under question (Tippit being in the Top Ten) is true in order to help cloud a timing issue tied to the very questioning of its truthfulness. It is also false that we cannot get close to accurate on the time that Tippit was shot. We have Helen Markham, an eyewitness who shows the murder happened prior to 1:06 because she was on her way to catch a bus due at that time. There is also a police supplementary report that gave the time of death as 1:00 but was altered to read 1:15. The Death Certificate meanwhile claims he was injured at 1:18 and died at 1:15. But it does not end there. There is a Secret Service document dated December 1, 1963, which has a timeline based on ͞information available͟. It goes on to say ͞these sequences are to be checked against the radio reports (police dispatch) here. The timing seems to compare favorably with times given in other official reports. The flight (of Oswald) and timing are as follows:
At the bottom of the time-line, it states, ͞On November 22, 1963, at approximately 1: 00 PM, police patrolman JD Tippit of the Dallas Police Department was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald.͟ Despite this, the previous amounts of time allotted for each segment of alleged travel, gets Oswald to the Tippit murder site no sooner than approximately 1:13 PM.
The Secret Service was claiming Oswald killed Tippit twice within the space of 15 minutes. Either we are looking at the start of the Zombie Apocalypse, or some seriously rigged/flawed evidence.
The Secret Service got around the dilemma by issuing a memo a few days later with the same information, but minus any reference to Tippit being killed at ͞approximately 1:00 PM͟. Ironically, the most reliable evidence for the timing comes from an unreliable eyewitness to the murder; the aforementioned Helen Markham, because the single verifiable thing she stated was what time her bus was due. But Markham was not alone. There was another witness who put the time at about 1:00 PM – Frank Cimino.
The Top Ten was too far from Tippit’s patrol district for Tippit to use a telephone there whilst on duty.
Drenas relies on various other officers to declare that there were times when officers were called upon to cover neighboring patrol districts and that this may have provided opportunity in the past to use the phone at the Top Ten.
My comment: Using the Attorney General’s Tippit file, the closest Drenas was able to place Tippit to the Top Ten over the previous years was 1.5 miles. I am certain Tippit’s own patrol area had shops and phone booths he could utilize if needed for calls.
The fact that it was said that Tippit did not have his partner with him is also somewhat telling. According to Officer McDonald, Tippit had no partner when working in daylight hours – no one did unless they had a trainee, and according to McDonald, Tippit was not a designated trainer. It is unlikely that the Top Ten was open at night, so whoever it was who would come in there to use the phone, it could not have been Tippit – it was someone who regularly had a trainee with him. It is noted the first police officer at the scene of the Tippit murder was reserve sergeant and part-time professional cowboy, Kenneth Croy. Croy’s testimony may well indicate if any officer made a phone call from the Top Ten, it was very likely him. That testimony is reproduced below:
Mr. CROY. No. I was standing at the scene, and there had been several reports. One, that he, of course, they said that the killer did go into a church, which was in sight of where they were at. And another report, that he had gone into the library over on Jefferson. And they had all, most of the officers except maybe one or two had left the scene where Tippit was killed and gone to the spot. And as I got ready to leave, there was another report that he ran into the Texas Theatre, a man fitting Oswald's description had ran into the Texas Theatre.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was about the time you got into the automobile?
Mr. CROY. Just as I was fixing to leave.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have your police radio on in your car?
Mr. CROY. Yes. Mr. GRIFFIN. So you drove over there by the--near the theatre?
Mr. CROY. Well, I drove on up 10th Street. I believe it was 10th Street. On up to Zangs, and when I got to Zangs, took a left, and at the end of Zangs, at the corner of Zangs and Jefferson, it is just a block away, I could see them rushing out to the front and the back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do as you saw them rushing out?
Mr. CROY. They had more help than they needed, so I went on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue to listen to your police radio?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear anything more over the radio about what happened?
Mr. CROY. No. I only had channel 1 on my radio.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far a drive is it from the Texas Theatre to where you live?
Mr. CROY. About 3 miles.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long does it take to drive that distance?
Mr. CROY. About 10 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually see these men rushing into the Texas Theatre from your automobile?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know they were going into the, men were rushing into the theatre just as you went by?
Mr. CROY. There were three cars in the back and about three in the front, and there wasn't nobody in them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You drove right by the front of the theatre?
Mr. CROY. I drove within a block, but it is a big, wide street there, and there is an alley and nothing on the other side of the street, parking lots.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many cars could you see there?
Mr. CROY. I would say there were two or three in the back and two or three in the front, plus another on the way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, the street that you took, did that go by the front or the back of the theatre?
Mr. CROY. It didn't go by either one of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which street was that?
Mr. CROY. Zangs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many blocks is it from the theatre?
Mr. CROY. One.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Whatstreet is the theatre on?
Mr. CROY. Jefferson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What street does it back on to?
Mr. CROY. It backs into an alley.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Into the alley?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many feet would you say that Jefferson or the Texas Theatre is from Zangs?
Mr. CROY. I don't know. I would say not a very long block.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you were driving up Zangs, I take it you were driving away from town?
Mr. CROY. South.
Mr. GRIFFIN. South on Zangs at Jefferson?
Mr. CROY. Yes. Mr.
GRIFFIN. Did you continue south?
Mr. CROY. I continued south.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you proceed to your home from there?
Mr. CROY. Well, I didn't go home. I went to eat.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go to eat?
Mr. CROY. Austin Barbecue.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located?
Mr. CROY. On the corner of Hampton and Illinois.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you get to Hampton and Illinois?
Mr. CROY. From Zangs to Illinois.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what direction?
Mr. CROY. West.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that left or right?
Mr. CROY. It is a right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then how far up Illinois to Hampton?
Mr. CROY. Oh, I would say a long ways. It is a good stretch. Zangs Place is about the 300 or 400 block and Illinois intersects at about the 2100 or 2200 block.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far driving was it from the Texas Theatre to this place that you had dinner or lunch?
Mr. CROY. Well, it is about three-quarters of a mile from my house, so it is 3 miles from there, so about 2 1/3 miles.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from the diner what route did you drive to your house?
Mr. CROY. Straight up Illinois, west on Illinois.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is your house on Illinois?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what time you arrived at the diner?
Mr. CROY. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody there that you knew?
Mr. CROY. My wife.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have an appointment to meet your wife there?
Mr. CROY. Yes
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time was your appointment?
Mr. CROY. Well, I saw her downtown and I was supposed to have gone right straight over there. I was supposed to have gone by my mother's, and I got detoured down at Tippit, and I was a little bit late, and she was a little mad.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time you were supposed to meet her? Mr. CROY. No; I just saw her downtown, and we were going to eat. She was in her car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see her downtown? Where were you and she when you saw each other?
Mr. CROY. At the courthouse. She pulled up beside me. I asked if anybody needed me there, and they said, "No," and here she comes and I said, "Do you want to get something to eat?" And she said, "Yes."
Mr. GRIFFIN. You said you would be right there?
Mr. CROY. I was going to change my uniform and my clothes were over at my mother's and dad's.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So then as you drove out to change your clothes, what did you do? Did you hear something? How did you happen to get over to Tippit's place on the way home?
Mr. CROY. I was on the corner of Zangs and Colorado on my way to my mother's and dad's house at that particular time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why were you going to change your clothes at your mother's and dad'house? Did you live at your mother's and dad's house at that particular time?
Mr. CROY. Yes. I did for about that 2 weeks.
It appears that Croy was running late to meet his wife due to the Tippit murder and may have stopped at the Top Ten to try and contact her to let her know he wouldn’t be much longer. Since no one apparently answered, she most likely had already left to go to the agreed meeting spot at the court house. This would explain why the officer tore off in such a hurry. There is no wrath quite like the wrath of a wife kept waiting by a delinquent cowboy. His living at his parents’ place for a short period may also indicate that the marriage was on the rocks and this meeting for lunch was an attempt at smoothing things out. In this scenario, we have to accept that the witnesses mistook Croy for Tippit although they may have been close on the timing, having claimed it was about 10 minutes prior to Tippit’s murder being announced through the media. If they did get the timing right, as previously noted, it could not have been Tippit.
--------------------
More here https://gregrparker.com/essays/jd-tippit-an-alternative-solution/
This is just the cherry-picked CT timeline that is every bit as dodgy as the cherry-picked WC timeline. No sighting of any player can be exempt from folding into the conspiracy, and no investigation will be done to test the veracity of such sightings.
The whole LN/CT thing is just a microcosm of society at large.
We don't like the MSM.
Okay, so we created our own alternative media. But the alternative is no better - and in some cases far worse, though both MSM and alternative do have small pockets of real and unbiased investigative journalism, it gets lost in the deluge of bullshit. This fracturing led to...
the creation of "alternative facts" and the normalizing and widespread use of same, spreading from both MSM and more noticeably, alternative media, into political talking points and general discourse. Of course, politicians stretching and spinning the truth is as old as politics itself - but this has taken it into the stratasphere. The BIG LIE is no longer off limits.
So this case for me, is not just about justice for JFK and Oswald, or correcting history - it is now also, to whatever extent possible, about creating awareness of the dangers to society posed by the lies on both sides of the coin.
It is in short, an existential battle for a sane planet.
But it is just one battle, and there will be a need for many more in many other battle-grounds.
PS this is not meant as a clarion call. Nor that I am suddenly taking myself too seriously. How can I? My wife just gleefully informed me that I have been traipsing around town all morning with my pullover on inside out.
_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise.
Lachie Hulme
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
Me
"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." Don Jeffries
"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott
https://gregrparker.com
- Jake_Sykes
- Posts : 1093
Join date : 2016-08-15
Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Mon 17 Jul 2023, 1:04 pm
Greg said: "But he makes a logical error after that by assuming the thing under question (Tippit being in the Top Ten) is true in order to help cloud a timing issue tied to the very questioning of its truthfulness"
Very smart. Analysis like this places you head and shoulders above so many. I see it time and again from you. I would not have figured that out myself, even with my sweater on right side out.
Very smart. Analysis like this places you head and shoulders above so many. I see it time and again from you. I would not have figured that out myself, even with my sweater on right side out.
_________________
Release clear scans. Reveal the truth about Prayer Man. Preserve the history of the assassination of JFK.
- lanceman
- Posts : 325
Join date : 2021-02-04
Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Tue 18 Jul 2023, 2:52 am
If it was Croy in the Top 10 Records, why would he speed off in the opposite direction (north, across Jefferson and then east on Sunset) from where he was supposed to meet his wife? Further, while Croy was in a policeman’s uniform, his car was unmarked (though it did have a radio that could only receive, nit broadcast) unlike the marked car that Stark and Cortinas had described.
Frankly, I don’t think Croy was very bright. I suspect he was viewed as such when he asked if anyone needed his help right after the assassination and he was told “no”.
I think Drenas had an inspired idea of examining Tippit’s activities just prior to his death but many of the details depend too much on unreliable witness accounts given years after the events.
I’m wondering if it was R.C. Nelson who might have been at the GLOCO station (if a cop WAS there) hoping to catch fleeing assassins. He finally ended up in Dealey Plaza even though he was not called there. Was he an ambitious cop trying to advance his career? He refused to be interviewed by Dale Myers.
Frankly, I don’t think Croy was very bright. I suspect he was viewed as such when he asked if anyone needed his help right after the assassination and he was told “no”.
I think Drenas had an inspired idea of examining Tippit’s activities just prior to his death but many of the details depend too much on unreliable witness accounts given years after the events.
I’m wondering if it was R.C. Nelson who might have been at the GLOCO station (if a cop WAS there) hoping to catch fleeing assassins. He finally ended up in Dealey Plaza even though he was not called there. Was he an ambitious cop trying to advance his career? He refused to be interviewed by Dale Myers.
Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Tue 18 Jul 2023, 8:20 am
Wasn't there something about having to go home first to change out of his uniform?lanceman wrote:If it was Croy in the Top 10 Records, why would he speed off in the opposite direction (north, across Jefferson and then east on Sunset) from where he was supposed to meet his wife? Further, while Croy was in a policeman’s uniform, his car was unmarked (though it did have a radio that could only receive, nit broadcast) unlike the marked car that Stark and Cortinas had described.
Frankly, I don’t think Croy was very bright. I suspect he was viewed as such when he asked if anyone needed his help right after the assassination and he was told “no”.
I think Drenas had an inspired idea of examining Tippit’s activities just prior to his death but many of the details depend too much on unreliable witness accounts given years after the events.
I’m wondering if it was R.C. Nelson who might have been at the GLOCO station (if a cop WAS there) hoping to catch fleeing assassins. He finally ended up in Dealey Plaza even though he was not called there. Was he an ambitious cop trying to advance his career? He refused to be interviewed by Dale Myers.
As for markred/unmarked car, there is some doubt that they could have seen his car, so any actual police car they saw wasn't even Croy regardless of which direction it was going.
You could make the case that Croy did not mention going into the store and there is no real reason why he wouldn't if it was innocent call, but since the call was not picked it, it was unnecessary to the general thrust of his story.
_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise.
Lachie Hulme
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
Me
"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." Don Jeffries
"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott
https://gregrparker.com
- lanceman
- Posts : 325
Join date : 2021-02-04
Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Tue 18 Jul 2023, 9:31 am
Croy was going to meet his wife at Austins BBQ which is about 3.5 miles southwest of Top 10 Records. He also said that his house (presumably his parents house) was nearby. If it was the 1658 Glenfield address he gave in the testimony, it is very close. You’re right that he could have considered stopping at the record store an inconsequential matter. The car speeding off could be embellishment incorporated during multiple retellings.
I’m not sure whether the incident took place on November 22 or at all. Strange that other customers in the store didn’t come forward given the notoriety. Even if it did take place, it can only be tied in to Tippit’s death through imaginative speculation.
If Tippit did make that phone call, I doubt it was to his wife with whom he had lunch with 90 minutes ago and was home with their son so she should have been able to answer.
I’d say the event (and the other oddities of the Drenas timeline) should be filed away and if more information turns up, it should be evaluated for how it might fit in rather than trying to build a scenario around it.
Tippit’s voice on the Dallas police recordings seem very relaxed an nonchalant despite supposedly speeding off from the GLOCO station and the record store.
I’m going to look into deriving a timeline independent of the time stamps on the recordings starting from the point in space and time marked by the shooting of Tippit and using what consistencies there are in the affidavits, testimonies and interviews and reasonable times for those actions. Might not lead anywhere but we’ll see.
I’m not sure whether the incident took place on November 22 or at all. Strange that other customers in the store didn’t come forward given the notoriety. Even if it did take place, it can only be tied in to Tippit’s death through imaginative speculation.
If Tippit did make that phone call, I doubt it was to his wife with whom he had lunch with 90 minutes ago and was home with their son so she should have been able to answer.
I’d say the event (and the other oddities of the Drenas timeline) should be filed away and if more information turns up, it should be evaluated for how it might fit in rather than trying to build a scenario around it.
Tippit’s voice on the Dallas police recordings seem very relaxed an nonchalant despite supposedly speeding off from the GLOCO station and the record store.
I’m going to look into deriving a timeline independent of the time stamps on the recordings starting from the point in space and time marked by the shooting of Tippit and using what consistencies there are in the affidavits, testimonies and interviews and reasonable times for those actions. Might not lead anywhere but we’ll see.
Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Tue 18 Jul 2023, 10:28 am
I realize I could be wrong about it being Croy. I should have added that the real point was no one ever loooked for, let alone ruled out an innocent explanation for the call. Everyone just jumped straight on the conspiracy choo choo. Out of all possibilitues, Croy did have an innocent reason to make such an urgent call about 10 minutes prior to the public broadcast on Tippit. I know who it wasn't. It wasn't Tippit because that makes zero sense. If it wasn't Croy, then I'd look at Nelson. He and Tippit looked very similar in uniform and at least he may have used that phone in the past. Nelson may or may not have had an innocent reason for the call.greg_parker wrote:Wasn't there something about having to go home first to change out of his uniform?lanceman wrote:If it was Croy in the Top 10 Records, why would he speed off in the opposite direction (north, across Jefferson and then east on Sunset) from where he was supposed to meet his wife? Further, while Croy was in a policeman’s uniform, his car was unmarked (though it did have a radio that could only receive, nit broadcast) unlike the marked car that Stark and Cortinas had described.
Frankly, I don’t think Croy was very bright. I suspect he was viewed as such when he asked if anyone needed his help right after the assassination and he was told “no”.
I think Drenas had an inspired idea of examining Tippit’s activities just prior to his death but many of the details depend too much on unreliable witness accounts given years after the events.
I’m wondering if it was R.C. Nelson who might have been at the GLOCO station (if a cop WAS there) hoping to catch fleeing assassins. He finally ended up in Dealey Plaza even though he was not called there. Was he an ambitious cop trying to advance his career? He refused to be interviewed by Dale Myers.
As for markred/unmarked car, there is some doubt that they could have seen his car, so any actual police car they saw wasn't even Croy regardless of which direction it was going.
You could make the case that Croy did not mention going into the store and there is no real reason why he wouldn't if it was innocent call, but since the call was not picked it, it was unnecessary to the general thrust of his story.
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Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Tue 18 Jul 2023, 10:51 am
I agree there is a c hance it was some other day, or it just never happened at all.lanceman wrote:Croy was going to meet his wife at Austins BBQ which is about 3.5 miles southwest of Top 10 Records. He also said that his house (presumably his parents house) was nearby. If it was the 1658 Glenfield address he gave in the testimony, it is very close. You’re right that he could have considered stopping at the record store an inconsequential matter. The car speeding off could be embellishment incorporated during multiple retellings.
I’m not sure whether the incident took place on November 22 or at all. Strange that other customers in the store didn’t come forward given the notoriety. Even if it did take place, it can only be tied in to Tippit’s death through imaginative speculation.
If Tippit did make that phone call, I doubt it was to his wife with whom he had lunch with 90 minutes ago and was home with their son so she should have been able to answer.
I’d say the event (and the other oddities of the Drenas timeline) should be filed away and if more information turns up, it should be evaluated for how it might fit in rather than trying to build a scenario around it.
Tippit’s voice on the Dallas police recordings seem very relaxed an nonchalant despite supposedly speeding off from the GLOCO station and the record store.
I’m going to look into deriving a timeline independent of the time stamps on the recordings starting from the point in space and time marked by the shooting of Tippit and using what consistencies there are in the affidavits, testimonies and interviews and reasonable times for those actions. Might not lead anywhere but we’ll see.
But assuming it did...
This is what I was relying on re going home to change
Mr. CROY. Well, I saw her downtown and I was supposed to have gone right straight over there. I was supposed to have gone by my mother's, and I got detoured down at Tippit, and I was a little bit late, and she was a little mad.
So he had met his wife at the courthouse - check
He missed going home to change because of Tipped
He goes to the lunch appointment - check
My point is that his wife probably also went home from the court house, and he stopped to phone her there to let her know he was delayed by the Tippit murder and and is going home to change now and would be there soon.
No pick up, so he either goes home and gets changed or goes straight to Austins.
-----------------
Not sure about the claim that the son was home sick.
His teacher recalls Alan getting the news about his father at school.
--------------------
JIMMY ARMSTRONG
Jimmy Armstrong, longtime coach and educator in the Tyler and Van school districts, was teaching and coaching in Dallas in fall 1963.
He was teaching social studies and coaching eighth grade football at Browne Junior High School. One of his players and students was Alan Tippit, son of Dallas policeman J.D. Tippit.
On Nov. 22, 1963, Armstrong said the social studies classes at Browne JH were allowed to watch the parade route of President John F. Kennedy's motorcade on TV. They then viewed the broadcasts to get news of JFK's assassination.
"While in class, Alan was called to the office, but we did not know why until the next day," Armstrong said.
The elder Tippit was a decorated, 11-year veteran police officer with the Dallas Police Department who, according to two federal government investigations, was shot and killed by 24-year-old former Marine Lee Harvey Oswald. Tippit had stopped Oswald for questioning about 45 minutes after the assassination of President Kennedy.
"It was the saddest Thanksgiving that year," Armstrong, who resides in Chandler, said.
https://tylerpaper.com/news/national/video-jfk-50---where-were-you-november-22/article_1946f43f-a7dd-5945-9b18-af5259aa06c1.html
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Lachie Hulme
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
Me
"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." Don Jeffries
"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott
https://gregrparker.com
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Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Tue 18 Jul 2023, 12:17 pm
Quoting from a 1967 interview with dispatcher Murray Jackson:
We had received a call from a citizen. They called us on the telephone and the call sheet came - came to me and there was a disturbance in street in the 400 block of East 10th.
We know that someone has telephoned into Dallas Police around or just prior to 1.00pm for the above call.
This radio dispatch call to 78 was made sometime between 1:01:00pm 1:02:30pm. This call to 78 is claimed to have been erased from the recording.
That 30 seconds possibly included Tippit's response to dispatch.
We had received a call from a citizen. They called us on the telephone and the call sheet came - came to me and there was a disturbance in street in the 400 block of East 10th.
We know that someone has telephoned into Dallas Police around or just prior to 1.00pm for the above call.
This radio dispatch call to 78 was made sometime between 1:01:00pm 1:02:30pm. This call to 78 is claimed to have been erased from the recording.
That 30 seconds possibly included Tippit's response to dispatch.
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Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Tue 18 Jul 2023, 12:18 pm
- Mick_Purdy
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Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Tue 18 Jul 2023, 12:22 pm
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Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Tue 18 Jul 2023, 12:23 pm
Markham's WC testimony:
Mr. BALL. You left your home to go to work at some time, didn't you, that day?
Mrs. MARKHAM. At one.
Mr. BALL. One o'clock?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe it was a little after 1.
Mr. BALL. Where did you intend to catch the bus?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On Patton and Jefferson.
When Pressed by Ball further she replied,
Mr. BALL. You think it was a little after 1?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I wouldn't be afraid to bet it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes after 1.
Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.
Mr. BALL. So it was before 1:15?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it was.
The FBI noted that Markham's walk to the bus stop on Patton and Jefferson would take approximately 2 minutes 30 seconds.
The bus she would catch is noted to be the 1:12pm.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11029#relPageId=73
Mr. BALL. You left your home to go to work at some time, didn't you, that day?
Mrs. MARKHAM. At one.
Mr. BALL. One o'clock?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe it was a little after 1.
Mr. BALL. Where did you intend to catch the bus?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On Patton and Jefferson.
When Pressed by Ball further she replied,
Mr. BALL. You think it was a little after 1?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I wouldn't be afraid to bet it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes after 1.
Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.
Mr. BALL. So it was before 1:15?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it was.
The FBI noted that Markham's walk to the bus stop on Patton and Jefferson would take approximately 2 minutes 30 seconds.
The bus she would catch is noted to be the 1:12pm.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11029#relPageId=73
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Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer
Tue 18 Jul 2023, 12:26 pm
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