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Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

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Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by greg parker on Thu 17 Dec 2009, 10:22 pm

The discrediting of a witness
Arnold Rowland testified before the Warren Commission on March 10, 1964 that he observed two men on the 6th floor between 12:15 and 12:30. He described one as being an "elderly Negro" and gave the following description:

very slender, very thin
bald or practically bald, or very thin hair if he wasn't bald,
50, possibly 55 or 60
5' 8", 5' 10"
very dark or fairly dark, not real dark compared to some Negroes, but fairly dark, can't recall detail but it [his skin] was either very wrinkled or marked in some way
had on a plaid shirt. I think it was red and green, very bright color


The Warren Commission was determined to have this investigated, but with a bias toward discrediting Rowland. The Commission wrote to the FBI on March 16 advising of the "allegations" concerning this "elderly Negro" and asking that "appropriate background investigation be conducted to verify Rowland's testimony" related to this, as well as his academic record.[1]

The letter also stated that Rowland had indicated he "might be able to identify the Negro person whom he saw, although he did not definitely say he would do so."

On March 23, the FBI interviewed Bill Shelley at the Texas School Book Depository. After being furnished with Rowland's description, Shelley advised that the only employees who fit it were Troy Eugene West and Eddie Piper.[2] These two employees also happened to be the only Black employees who stayed inside the building during the assassination without anything approaching solid alibis.

West was a wrapper who worked at the mail desk on the first floor. Piper's official job title was Janitor, though he actually did performed a variety of duties. One additional note: Piper's hours differed to other employees, commencing at 10:00am and finishing at 7:00 to 8:00pm.

Shelley could not recall the type or color shirt either of these men wore on Nov 22.

The FBI next spoke to Piper, and took three full length photos of him, one showing full face, the other two in profile. Piper advised he had worked at the depository for over 5 years; that he seldom worked on the 6th floor, and had not gone there on the day of the assassination. He further stated he had watched the motorcade alone from a first floor window as he ate his lunch, denied owning a red and green shirt on that date, and also that he had worn a red and green shirt on that date. Recall however, that Rowland had only suggested they might be the colors. His only firm memory was that it was “very bright”. Piper added that he wore glasses at all times while working and only took them off to sleep.

Piper's description in the report is as follows:
Born: Jan 23, 1908.
Height: 5' 10"
Weight: 140
Hair: gray
Eyes: brown
Build: slender
Facial characteristics: wears moustache; no scars or marks visible

The same procedure was followed with Troy West; photos and description taken, questions asked. West advised he generally worked at the mail desk on the first floor and in addition to his other duties, also made the coffee for other employees. On the day of the assassination he had been on the first floor all day, and at the time the shots were fired, had been preparing a pot of coffee, and had been alone.

West's description was given as:
Born: Mar 11, 1907
Height: 5' 91/2"
Weight: 155
Hair: black
Eyes: brown
Complexion: dark
Build: medium
Facial characteristics: wears moustache, no visible scars or marks


As with Piper, West denied owning a red and green shirt, or ever wearing such a shirt to work.[3]

The rest of the report is dedicated to tearing down Rowland's testimony regarding his IQ and his scholastic achievements. Though he had clearly overstated his academic record, the report does indicate he had an IQ test in 1959. Unfortunately, the FBI, in its wisdom, blacked out the score, while claiming in its summary that it was 109 (Rowland had said it was 147).

The photos of Piper and West are not attached to the report, and there is no indication the photos were ever shown to Rowland. They had apparently satisfied themselves that he was a liar, and abruptly ceased the investigation.

Of the two, Piper seems the better fit regarding Rowland's description, and it is Piper who has the greater difficulty insofar as demonstrating his whereabouts during relevant periods.

Oswald's escort to the 6th floor
On November 24, it was reported around the country that "A building porter said he took Oswald to the 6th floor in an elevator. When he got out, Oswald asked the porter to send the car back up for him. The porter went to the ground floor to watch the Kennedy motorcade." [4] In context, this event was no doubt at the start of the lunch break, or very soon thereafter.

Tempting as it is to suggest this story is a bastardization of Givens' account of returning to the 6th floor to retrieve his forgotten cigarettes - this account did not emerge until much later. It is just as likely, if not more so, that Givens' late emerging story is an attempt to explain away this one, dropping the bit about taking anyone up there with him, and replacing it with seeing Oswald already there.

To de-construct the newspaper account, we must first ask who claimed to watch the motorcade alone on the first floor? The answer to that is Eddie Piper. The next question is why would Oswald need to be taken to the 6th floor by anyone? As he worked in the building and regularly needed to retrieve orders from that floor, the answer is simply that he needed no such escort. Someone who might need an escort up there would be a non-employee. As it happens, Rowland did see another person up on the 6th floor; a fair complexioned Caucasian or Latin male with dark hair wearing a light colored shirt, opened at the collar with a t-shirt underneath and dark slacks or blue jeans. Rowland thought this man was in his early thirties and was holding a 30.06 rifle. Rowland's description of this man would virtually match the ones given by Howard Brennan of a man he saw on the 6th floor (white man in his early 30's, slender, about 165 to 175 pounds, wearing light colored clothing) and Marion Baker of a man he initially said he encountered on the 3rd or 4th floor, but later changing it to the 2nd floor. (white man approximately 30 years old, 5"9', 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket).

Piper's alibi

Piper's first official statement was on November 23 at the Sheriff's office. In this, he indicated that, yesterday at about 12:00 noon, this fellow Lee says to me, "I'm going up to eat" and I went on to my lunch. I went to the front window on the first floor and ate my lunch and waited to see the President's parade go by. I saw the President pass and heard some shots and looked at the clock there and saw it was 12:25PM. The shots seemed to me like they came from up inside the building. We will return to those words later. For now, there is one other comment worth noting from this statement: It was about 1:00 PM when the police made us vacate the building and as we were being checked out, I noticed that "Lee" wasn't with us and I mentioned to some of the employees there checking out that Lee wasn't there and somebody said, he must have already gone out. Before the WC, he would admit he noticed Lee missing, but denied mentioning it to any other employee. Yet this cannot be a mere misunderstanding on the part of those taking the statement as it includes mention of specific dialog. It will come as no surprise though, that the WC just let the matter drop.

Piper's next entries into the annals of the case were as one of the subjects of a Secret Service Report consisting of interview results of employees of the shipping and order filling department of the TSBD dated December 7, 1963 followed by a Dallas Police Intelligence Report dated February 17, 1964 regarding his knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and the assassination of President John F Kennedy.[5] Only a small percentage of witnesses were lucky enough to be the subject of a PI report. They were not done just for the heck of it. The date of the report makes it highly likely that Piper was called in as a result of a February 10 Star Telegram story by Thayer Waldo. Waldo had been told by Mike Howard of the Secret Service and his brother Pat, a Tarrant County Deputy Sheriff that a Negro witness, who had been looking out of a 6th floor window, witnessed Oswald firing at the president. In some reports, this witness is referred to as a janitor - and Piper was the only janitor. [6] There are certain elements of the story which seem fabricated, miss told, miss heard or blended from other stories. However, the basics of it fit with the news story concerning the escorting of Oswald to the 6th floor.

Piper was not interviewed by the Warren Commission until April 8, 1964 - after Rowland's testimony and the subsequent FBI investigation of the young man's claims. Piper told the commission he was on the first floor at about noon when he last saw Oswald, and gave the following evidence concerning that brief moment: Well, I said to him---"It's about lunch time. I believe I'll go have lunch." So, he says, "Yeah"---he mumbled something---I don't know whether he said he was going up or going out, so I got my sandwich off of the radiator and went on back to the first window of the first floor. Asked to confirm which window, he corrected it to the second from the front door. Piper next testified that he had been looking through the window while eating his lunch, but couldn't see anything because of the crowd. He claimed not to have moved from that spot until immediately after the second shot rang out. It is at this precise point that Ball asks if he ever went to the sixth floor and if he was there any time that day. Was Ball sniffing around the question as to whether he escorted Oswald (or someone) up to the sixth, or - despite the FBI's assurances that Rowland's claims were bogus, was he still considering them as possible? Piper answered "no" for the record on both questions, and "yes" to a further one on if he had gone above the first floor any time before the shots. One of Piper's daily tasks took him up to the fourth floor. From this floor, he would work his way down, collecting mail on the way. He claimed to have started on the fourth floor that day at 11:00am, arriving back on the first floor at about 11:30am. The half hour between then and his discussion about lunch with Oswald was left untouched. But it was at the sound of the second shot where previously unmentioned elements in his story come into play.[7] I got on up and went on back, back where they make coffee at the end of the counter where I could see what happened and before I could get there, the third shot went off, and I seen the people all running and in a few minutes someone came in the building, and I looked up and it was the boss-man and a policeman or someone. Asked by Ball if he had moved to this new spot in order to see better, Piper replied, no, sir; I did it to see what time it was---when all this happened---to see what time it was. Asked what time it was, Piper answered it was about between 12:30---between 12:27 and 12:30--something like that, as near as I can remember.

But that is not what he said the time was in his statements of November 23 and the following Feb 17. In those statements, he was unequivocal that the time had been precisely 12:25. This was the time the motorcade was expected, but it was running five minutes late. Was Piper, not knowing this, trying to time-stamp his alibi with what he thought had been the time of the assassination?

One way to test his alibi is to look for corroboration. When we do that, we find: He did not see anyone else who had remained inside on the first floor - even though, according to his testimony, he moved from his spot at the window to the same location as West. Likewise, West did not see anyone else. Piper belatedly (that is, after the event became widely known) claimed to have seen Truly and an officer just after they entered. In his testimony, Piper was unable to say what clothing or uniform the officer wore, and even stated at one point he may have been an FBI agent. So problematical was his testimony in this regard that he had to be called back to clear up the matter. He did a little better second time round. Truly however, stated in testimony that he saw no one in the area just prior to his ascent up the stairs. Interestingly, Piper inserts himself into the Truly-Baker drama by recalling an exchange with Truly about the elevators. Neither Truly nor Baker recalled anything of the sort. What Baker did recall was seeing two white men - one either side of him as he and Truly went for the elevators.

Victoria Adams, who within a minute of the last shot ringing out, ran from a window on the south side of the fourth floor down the rear stairs to the first floor, saw no one there but Shelley and Lovelady.

But possibly the most damaging testimony to the alibi came from Bill Shelley. Leaving aside his ludicrous timeline for WC consumption, he was back in the building as per his initial statement not long after Truly and Baker entered. His testimony on seeing Piper at that point is enlightening:

Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.

Mr. BALL - What was he doing?
Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.

Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

So there it is. Piper did not watch the motorcade from a first floor window and move to West's mail desk at the sound of the second shot. He was seen "coming back" from that presumed viewing position after the last shot, and indeed, after the entry of Truly and Baker – leaving open the possibility he had not been at a first floor window at all. He could have been "coming back" from virtually any place in the building.

In sum
• Piper was one of only two employees, apart from West, who had access to the materials needed to construct a paper bag; Piper, by virtue of working until 7:00 or 8:00pm - long after all other employees had left. The other employee was Jack Dougherty who started earlier than all other employees.

• An early news report indicated a "porter" had taken Oswald to the sixth floor around noon before going to the first floor to view the motorcade. Piper was not a porter, but is recorded as a porter in one police report. The main clue to it being Piper was that he was alleged to have been the only person to watch the motorcade on the first floor.

• Piper was identified by Bill Shelley as one of only two employees who matched the description of the "elderly Negro" seen by Arnold Rowland. The other was Troy West. Both Piper's and West's descriptions were noted by the FBI, with Piper's being the better match.

• The Dallas Police wrote an intelligence report on Piper due to a story by Thayer Waldo which related an account given by a Secret Service agent that a janitor had witnessed Oswald firing from the 6th floor window.

• The FBI took photos of Piper and West as part of the investigation of Rowland's claims. They are not appended to the report, and there was nothing noting they were ever shown to Rowland.

• Piper's alibi does not withstand scrutiny, and has no corroboration. It actually contains elements consistent with fabrication, particularly in attempting to "time-stamp" his move from his alleged viewing position, using the time the motorcade was due to pass instead of the actual time.

• Piper was seen moving towards West's mail desk by Bill Shelley at a time later than that which Piper had indicated - meaning he (Piper) could have been anywhere in the building beforehand.

• Although he denied saying it once sitting before the WC, his initial statement indicated he told other employees that Oswald was missing. The timeframe he gave for doing this probably preceded the time Truly claimed to have noticed the same thing. Shelley in fact, claimed to have told Truly about Oswald's absence. If so, it may well be because he had been informed himself of this by Piper.

Final word
Eddie Piper is an unlikely conspirator. It is possible he escorted someone (the unknown sniper) to the 6th floor and stayed up after being invited to watch the parade from a window – thus implicating a Black man in the assassination as predicted by Pfc Eugene Dinkin. By Saturday however (when Piper made his first official statement), co-conspirators were out of the question. He was given his alibi, leaving himself off the 6th floor and on the 1st floor, whilst implicating Oswald as not only going up, but doing so alone.

ENDNOTES
[1] FBI 62-109060 JFK HQ File, Section 60
[2] Ibid
[3] Ibid
[4] For example, Victoria (Texas) Advocate, Nov 24, 1963, p7. This article refers to a "porter", and Piper was designated a "janitor", however his duties were varied and he was in fact quoted in the report cited at [5] as referring to himself as a "porter".
[5] Dallas Police Assassination Archives - Box 13 Folder 5 Item 26
[6] CD 1245 p 170 et seq. Investigation instigated by Mark Lane claim that the Howards had fabricated the story to further implicate Oswald.
[7] Piper had not previously mentioned seeing Truly and a policeman enter. He had, in the Dallas Police Intelligence report, mentioned moving away from the window and looking at the clock, but not where exactly he had moved to.


Last edited by greg parker on Sat 07 May 2011, 9:35 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by Guest on Mon 28 Dec 2009, 3:45 am

Real nice work, Greg. It's looking like Piper and West better head for the hills...

I'd never known that Mike Howard had a brother Pat, a Ft. Worth deputy sheriff, no less. Peter Dale Scott (Deep Politics I
pp. 286-289) points out Mike Howard's role in getting reservations for Marina & Marguerite at the Great Southwest Corporation's Inn of Six Flags in Arlington, on Sunday by 11:00 AM, BEFORE LHO was shot. LBJ did not grant the Secret Service authority to look after Marina until AFTER LHO was shot.

The Dallas office of the Secret Service was located in the Reliance Accident & Life Insurance Company building- the building being owned by Great Southwest, two building directors being Bedford & Angus Wynne, and the company owned by Nixon's close friend Maurice Carlson. Bedford Wynne was chief counsel for Great Southwest and the Murchison family, belonged to Bobby Baker's playboy club in Washington (The Quorum), and used Baker's legal firm to funnel oil payoffs to politicos. And nevermind that William McKenzie resigned from the powerhouse firm Wynne, Jaffe & Tinsley to become Marina's lawyer while her WC testimony was underway.

The etceteras with this band of pirates head straight through LBJ & the Rockefellers. Small wonder that Lady Bird got to be majority stockholder in Halliburton (which purchased Brown & Root in '64-'65), which moved its HQ to Dubai only a few years ago.

This short video says it all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?=9-dGHwe6COM

except that the black market in heroin funds deep-black projects, and since the Chinese Opium Wars has made tycoons of several select families.

Mark Lane saw through the Howard brothers' story right away. CD 1245 p. 180: "PAT HOWARD recalled MIKE HOWARD'S source of information about the Negro male was a detective on the Dallas Police Department, whose name was not recalled by PAT HOWARD." Convenient.
And what a fab fabrication: p. 174 (last two paragraphs)- p. 175: "Mike said the unnamed Negro waited a few minutes, then left the building, and went straight to Dallas Police Headquarters, where he turned himself in to Special Services."

Special Services = Police Intelligence. Piper's 2/17/64 interview with them was not signed by Piper. It was signed by P.M. Parks and M.H. Brumley.
It's noteworthy that Police Intel member Leonard Jez (WCH XIX p. 120) arrived early at the Tippit scene, and rode in a patrol car from there with Charles Walker and an unidentified reporter, around the block down Denver Street - when all of a sudden they spotted Jefferson Branch Library page Adrian Hamby running across the lawn... and more than a dozen cruisers converged on the library, just as their search was closing in on the Abundant Life Temple.

My best guess this morning, as to the November 24th newspaper account of the "building porter", is that Piper escorted arriving guest(s) up to the 6th, stayed up there and shot from the sniper's nest. West played it cool watching the 1st floor action at his wrapping table. Shelley covered for them in subsequent interviews.

A Dallas-area researcher may possibly luck into a photo of Piper and/or West and/or Givens, heading into the post office for testimony, in the afternoon edition of April 8th or morning edition of April 9, 1964, somewhere.

Them FBI portrait pix of Piper & West probably got "deeded" to the hunting lodge fire of Hoover's Official & Confidential files, or else snaked their way into Jimmy Angleton's 3-room safe over at CI/SIG at the Langster's. Me & the boys are workin' on a plan... pirat

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by greg parker on Mon 28 Dec 2009, 2:02 pm

Richard Gilbride wrote:Real nice work, Greg. It's looking like Piper and West better head for the hills...

Thanks Richard

I'd never known that Mike Howard had a brother Pat, a Ft. Worth deputy sheriff, no less. Peter Dale Scott (Deep Politics I
pp. 286-289) points out Mike Howard's role in getting reservations for Marina & Marguerite at the Great Southwest Corporation's Inn of Six Flags in Arlington, on Sunday by 11:00 AM, BEFORE LHO was shot. LBJ did not grant the Secret Service authority to look after Marina until AFTER LHO was shot.

Yeah, the FBI jumped the gun on entering the case, too.

The Dallas office of the Secret Service was located in the Reliance Accident & Life Insurance Company building- the building being owned by Great Southwest, two building directors being Bedford & Angus Wynne, and the company owned by Nixon's close friend Maurice Carlson. Bedford Wynne was chief counsel for Great Southwest and the Murchison family, belonged to Bobby Baker's playboy club in Washington (The Quorum), and used Baker's legal firm to funnel oil payoffs to politicos. And nevermind that William McKenzie resigned from the powerhouse firm Wynne, Jaffe & Tinsley to become Marina's lawyer while her WC testimony was underway.

Phew! I got a head-spin reading that! What do you make of all those connections?

The etceteras with this band of pirates head straight through LBJ & the Rockefellers. Small wonder that Lady Bird got to be majority stockholder in Halliburton (which purchased Brown & Root in '64-'65), which moved its HQ to Dubai only a few years ago.

State governments here keep awarding these pricks contracts. Makes me sick

This short video says it all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?=9-dGHwe6COM

except that the black market in heroin funds deep-black projects, and since the Chinese Opium Wars has made tycoons of several select families.

No argument there...

Mark Lane saw through the Howard brothers' story right away. CD 1245 p. 180: "PAT HOWARD recalled MIKE HOWARD'S source of information about the Negro male was a detective on the Dallas Police Department, whose name was not recalled by PAT HOWARD." Convenient.
And what a fab fabrication: p. 174 (last two paragraphs)- p. 175: "Mike said the unnamed Negro waited a few minutes, then left the building, and went straight to Dallas Police Headquarters, where he turned himself in to Special Services."

Of course, none of that matches what Piper said about his day at work. Lane thought the whole story was concocted for Waldo to print for the purpose of further incriminating Oswald. That makes sense - except that the basics of the story fit neatly with Rowland's testimony and the newspaper account of a "porter" escorting Oswald up to 6. But since Oswald needed no escort, and he can be placed elsewhere during the assassination, I'd have to go with it being a look-alike, or someone perhaps with police, FBI or Secret Service credentials.

Special Services = Police Intelligence. Piper's 2/17/64 interview with them was not signed by Piper. It was signed by P.M. Parks and M.H. Brumley.
It's noteworthy that Police Intel member Leonard Jez (WCH XIX p. 120) arrived early at the Tippit scene, and rode in a patrol car from there with Charles Walker and an unidentified reporter, around the block down Denver Street - when all of a sudden they spotted Jefferson Branch Library page Adrian Hamby running across the lawn... and more than a dozen cruisers converged on the library, just as their search was closing in on the Abundant Life Temple.

Well, we're on the same page here. This is a comment I made on a post to alt.conspiracy.jfk in 2002... "the real killer was in the "church", the library was a diversion away from that... and the fall-guy was in the theater..."

My best guess this morning, as to the November 24th newspaper account of the "building porter", is that Piper escorted arriving guest(s) up to the 6th, stayed up there and shot from the sniper's nest. West played it cool watching the 1st floor action at his wrapping table. Shelley covered for them in subsequent interviews.

A Dallas-area researcher may possibly luck into a photo of Piper and/or West and/or Givens, heading into the post office for testimony, in the afternoon edition of April 8th or morning edition of April 9, 1964, somewhere.

Hmm. Worth a shot.

Them FBI portrait pix of Piper & West probably got "deeded" to the hunting lodge fire of Hoover's Official & Confidential files, or else snaked their way into Jimmy Angleton's 3-room safe over at CI/SIG at the Langster's. Me & the boys are workin' on a plan... pirat

I'd like to get confirmation from Rowland on how that went. Did they, or didn't they, show him the photos?

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Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by Guest on Sun 03 Jan 2010, 10:08 am

Regarding connections, and painting with a very broad brush, it appears to me that a tight-knit Texas group facilitated the operational mechanics & arranged the legal investigation of JFK's assassination. With their oil holdings & military-industrial strength (Brown & Root, General Dynamics, Ling-Temco-Vought, Houston Space Center), coupled with ol'-boy control over Dealey Plaza real estate (TSBD & Dal-Tex) and Dallas law enforcement- Elm Street was the "perfect" place to murder JFK and get away with it- aligning as needed with the Dulles/Angleton/Helms CIA troika, the LeMay/Cabell nexus, and the Hoover-ignored Lansky Syndicate. This whole cabal, certainly "far-right" and much-Confederacy, might also be termed Rockefeller-guided.

Great Southwest, a realty development corporation "tightly centered in the Rockefeller and Wynne families", with the help of Dallas' White-Russian Solidarists (a creature of German intelligence commander Reinhard Gehlen), ensured that Marina would turn State's witness against Lee Harvey Oswald, and that there would be no inquiry into the Texas political netherworld.

Nelson Rockefeller began the Eisenhower administration as Chairman of the President's Advisory Committee on Government Organization. He consolidated FDR's New Deal reforms (trickle-down socialism?) as head of a new Cabinet post, the Department of Health, Education and Welfare. (His family had been architects of the 1914 Federal Reserve Act, and the 1921 Council on Foreign Relations).
In 1955 he replaced C.D. Jackson (Life, Zapruder film) as Eisenhower's Special Assistant for Cold War Strategy, i.e. presidential coordinator/czar for the intelligence community.

As a sidenote, David Rockefeller was director of Cuba's 2nd-largest sugar producer, Punta Alegre. About 1959 he took control of Chase Manhattan from John J. McCloy; the Bank had handled Cuba's credit since the Spanish-American War. The island had long-been the USA's main funnel-point for sugar, heroin & cocaine, and Castro's revolution upset the economic equation.

A strong contingent of Rockefeller-insiders (Nixon, Bush, Dulles, Bundy, Rusk, Dillon) sat on Ike's National Security Council, heavily-influencing the covert foreign policy of the past-his-prime 5-star general. Their primary allegiance was to Korporate Amerika and deep-black technology.

The Torbitt Document (despite its mistakes) correctly points out that Bobby Baker, Fred Black (TFX fighter-jet scandal) and Ed Levinson (Lansky underboss in Las Vegas) formed the Serv-U corp. and were awarded the vending-machine contract for North American Aviation in 1961.
Also, that string-pulling by LBJ (as NASA chieftain), Baker, Black & Wernher von Braun got North American Aviation the 1961 Apollo contract.

Australian Michael Salla, founder of the "Exopolitics" school of thought, makes a strong case (pp. 67-78) that Rockefeller & Co. successfully maneuvered deep-black technopolicy out of the hands of the Executive Branch, and into the interlocking monolith of big banking/defense & aerospace contractors: awarding contracts, restricting access to information, mobilizing men & materiel for clandestine programs, covertly manipulating foreign affairs to dovetail w/ their agenda- without ever seeking presidential approval.
Thus Eisenhower warned of the "military-industrial-Congressional" complex.

Most of this deep-black stuff was imported from Nazi Germany. My own research into the "secret space program" matches this video I found about 6 months ago, about an hour long, but a tremendous overview, for watching sometime:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Xj_noNvgZw


That's my slant, anyways, on the "big picture", behind Great Southwest and the Texas end of the military-industrial complex.

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by greg parker on Sun 17 Jan 2010, 9:57 pm

Eddie Piper pic (courtesy of RG) now in witnesses/suspects gallery.

He is a perfect match for Rowland's man.

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Wed 04 Sep 2013, 8:10 pm

I apologise if this has already been pointed out (too tired to concentrate right now), but I wanted to point it out. In his December 4, 1963, affidavit to the Secret Service (Ce493), Harold Norman made the following claim:

"About 12:15 pm, on this same date [November 22, 1963], after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building [TSBD] to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also work at this building went with me."

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_493.pdf

The "went with me" implies that Williams didn't join Norman and Jarman after allegedly eating his lunch on the 6th floor, but had actually gone up to the 5th floor with them.

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Thu 05 Sep 2013, 5:23 am

From James Jarman’s testimony:
 
Mr Ball.
 
And then what did you do?
 
Mr Jarman.
 
Then I went out in front of the building.
 
Mr Ball.
 
With who?
 
Mr Jarman.
 
Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray [Williams], and Danny Arce and myself.
 
Mr Ball.
 
You say Bonnie Ray Williams?
 
Mr Jarman.
 
Bonnie Ray Williams.
 
Mr Ball.
 
Do you remember him going with you?
 
Mr Jarman.
 
No; I am sorry. Excuse me, but it was Harold Norman and myself and Danny Arce.

 
After “slipping up” and saying that Williams went out with him, he quickly “corrects” himself and says that Williams didn’t go out with him. I think he almost gave Joe Ball a heart attack when he mentioned that.

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by Colin Crow on Wed 23 Oct 2013, 12:14 am

Also worth mentioning that Norman' s HSCA interview states that Williams bought his chicken lunch from the truck and did not bring it from home as he testified before the WC. Somehow I think that whole moving chicken bone/bag and pop bottle is involved in the events that day. Alyea claims they were found on the 5th floor and moved to the 6th. Could this be to "morph" Williams into Piper? Use Williams to cover Rolwand's black man if harming Rowland's credibility could not be damaged enough? The early statements by Williams do not mention the 6th floor. When it is mentioned he initially claims to take the stairs down, then is not sure about which elevator in the latest versions. Remember, he is responsible for the east elevator in the official version.

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by Guest on Wed 23 Oct 2013, 12:38 am

And was the plaster in the hair story moved from Norman to Williams to firm up the "elderly negro" sighting and the white plaster/dust story is to make Williams appear grey and therefore older from a distance?

The only problem with that is that Rowland saw the "elderly negro" much earlier and the plaster story occurs during the shots.

I have to leave Williams, Norman and Jarman for a while or they're going to be reponsible for me ending up in a straight jacket.

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by Redfern on Sat 11 Oct 2014, 7:46 am



There's an interesting thread running on the JFK Assassination Forum entitled 'Jeraldine Reid and her "recollections" - fact or fiction?'

It was initiated by Tony Fratini and Colin Crow has added some perceptive comments.

Both believe the figure in the Allen photo above is Eddie Piper.

If so, would this not tend to rule out Piper as the 'elderly negro' seen by Arnold Rowald on the 6th floor on the basis of his description of the 'plaid shirt' the man was wearing?

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by greg parker on Sat 11 Oct 2014, 8:16 am

Redfern,

I agree it would rule him out - no doubt about that.

But I very strongly doubt it was him. 

When he was being investigated about being the "elderly Negro" he was asked about what shirt he wore that day. He couldn't remember. 

What we see in your photo could be accurately described as the working clothes of a janitor/porter - which would make it pretty damn easy to recall. The known photo of Piper you used beside it I believe was taken at work and would be typical of what he usually wore.

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by Paul Francisco Paso on Sat 11 Oct 2014, 9:31 am

Redfern wrote:

There's an interesting thread running on the JFK Assassination Forum entitled 'Jeraldine Reid and her "recollections" - fact or fiction?'

It was initiated by Tony Fratini and Colin Crow has added some perceptive comments.

Both believe the figure in the Allen photo above is Eddie Piper.

If so, would this not tend to rule out Piper as the 'elderly negro' seen by Arnold Rowald on the 6th floor on the basis of his description of the 'plaid shirt' the man was wearing?
Looks more like a cab driver uniform rather than what a janitor would wear. I don't believe that could be Eddie Piper.

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by greg parker on Sat 11 Oct 2014, 10:49 am

Paul McGurkenfarklein wrote:
Redfern wrote:

There's an interesting thread running on the JFK Assassination Forum entitled 'Jeraldine Reid and her "recollections" - fact or fiction?'

It was initiated by Tony Fratini and Colin Crow has added some perceptive comments.

Both believe the figure in the Allen photo above is Eddie Piper.

If so, would this not tend to rule out Piper as the 'elderly negro' seen by Arnold Rowald on the 6th floor on the basis of his description of the 'plaid shirt' the man was wearing?
Looks more like a cab driver uniform rather than what a janitor would wear. I don't believe that could be Eddie Piper.
You're right, Paul - porter/cab driver/milkman/mail sorter...

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by greg parker on Sat 11 Oct 2014, 10:54 am

Piper was also listed at 5' 10". The "cabbie" looks to be short comparative to those around him.

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by greg parker on Sat 11 Oct 2014, 1:19 pm

There's an interesting thread running on the JFK Assassination Forum entitled 'Jeraldine Reid and her "recollections" - fact or fiction?'
Have just read the entire thread, and tho there are other aspects apart from the ID of Piper with which I disagree, overall, it is a worthwhile thread.


Last edited by greg parker on Sun 12 Oct 2014, 10:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by Colin Crow on Sun 12 Oct 2014, 10:40 pm

Thanks Greg, Tony Fratini (another Aussie) and I have put a lot into that work. There is another shot taken on the steps of the same guy. Eddie Piper seems everywhere that day, maybe it's not him but there is a resemblance. It's not the central theme of the thread but a spinoff. In my view the Reid encounter has all the hallmarks of being bogus. Ironically Sean appears in some old threads highlighting the problems with her story. We came across the issues with Reid and Hine independently last year. Stumbled across Sean's stuff by accident not that long ago.

Would be interested in your thoughts.

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by greg parker on Sun 12 Oct 2014, 10:50 pm

Just quickly Colin,

I know there is a resemblance, but he is imo, too short. 

I agree that Reid's story is probably BS. Sean convinced me of that.

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by beowulf on Wed 15 Oct 2014, 2:52 am

That's an outstanding thread.
Piper was on 6th floor but I suppose him telling cops he led "Secret Service" agents up there meant he was suborned to swear he was somewhere else, conveniently out of sight (the window on 1st floor worked nicely). What (I surmise) he'd originally told cops was genesis of story that "porter" took the shooter Oswald by elevator to 6th floor SN-- obviously Oswald didn't need an escort for his own worksite, an outside shooter would.

As for Oswald statement that he pointed a Secret Service agent to the phone, Buell Frazer's recently stated he saw Oswald on Houston St and believes he left TSBD by back exit. Recall that DPD Sgt Harkness saw (fake) Secret Service agents behind the TSBD a few minutes after the shooting. Perhaps one of the fake agents, coming in the back exit as LHO walked out, asked Oswald for directions to the phone.

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by Redfern on Thu 16 Oct 2014, 9:20 pm

I'm not sure if this is the correct thread to post in, but those concerning 'Prayerman', the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter, Vickie Adams, Truly, Dougherty, Piper, Shelley, Lovelady, the warehousemen on the fifth floor, Mrs Reid and Geneva Hine are all related in some way.


The 'Prayerman' poll shows that most forum members have been convinced by the argument the unidentified figure at the TSBD entrance was Oswald. Oswald's location during the assassination always struck me as by far the weakest point in the Warren critics' case. The significance of having this resolved in such a manner that demonstrates both a conspiracy and a huge cover-up can hardly be understated. 


It is surely incumbent on those who disagree with the PM thesis to present credible counter-arguments. Few have been forthcoming and there is now something of an 'elephant in the room' stance among certain prominent Warren critics. However, this is perhaps a topic for another thread.


Getting back on track, there are remaining issues concerning movements and events in the TSBD in the first few minutes following the assassination. The most awkward possibly concerns the man Baker encountered on the 3rd or 4th floor. Would it have been possible for this individual to descend the stairs and then be met by Baker and Truly without being observed by women looking out the west windows on the 4th floor? How could Dorothy Ann Garner see Baker and Truly but fail to mention the man they stopped - unless the encounter took place on the floor below? Would the natural escape route for any assassin not be the east elevator on the 6th floor?


How much of Bonnie Ray Williams' FBI report on the 23rd represents the truth? BRW said he saw no-one come down the stairs. At that stage the second-floor encounter was emerging in affidavits from Truly and Mrs Reid but perhaps the full significance of elevator movements was yet to dawn. If BRW's first affidavit is taken at face value and if Truly was telling the truth about the ascent to the 7th floor, both freight elevators were on the 5th at 12.30.


Why would Williams, Jarman and Norman head for the 4th floor rather than the 1st and take the elevator rather than the stairs? The absence of affidavits on Friday 22nd from the latter two is surely significant.


Related to these three workers is the photograph known as Dillard 'B'. While I write off most claims of chicanery related to photographic evidence, it is hard to escape the conclusion that Norman's head has been crudely pasted on to the body of someone else. What were they trying to hide?


How many men were on the 6th floor at the time of the assassination and in the minutes before and after? Apart from the sniper, there is considerable evidence that Dougherty and Piper were present. (Carolyn Walther also claimed to see a man with a 'brown suit coat'.) Both may have remained on the 6th floor until Baker and Truly bypassed them (if their version of events concerning the elevator on the 5th is true).




When compiling his affidavit, Baker would have been aware that shots came from the 6th floor - the one he supposedly did not search. Of course, he'd also know that Oswald was the suspect. Baker's failure to identify Oswald as the man on the 3rd or 4th floor is absolutely critical. There is a very strong case that the description broadcast on police radio by Inspector Sawyer came from Baker and that the former misled in his Warren testimony. The tone of Baker's affidavit implicitly reflects doubts about Truly.     


The actions and statements of Truly, Shelley, Dougherty and Lovelady are incriminating. I can accept that Williams, Jarman and Norman had no role in the assassination and arrived only on the 5th floor by chance. I am not so certain that the same can be said about Piper, were he the individual seen by Arnold Rowland.

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by greg parker on Thu 16 Oct 2014, 10:29 pm

Very nice summary of the current state of play, Redfern. Thanks.

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by greg parker on Fri 23 Sep 2016, 12:00 pm

I post this excerpt based on something Colin said in the podcast - that is that the chicken lunch remnants left behind are indicative of someone leaving in a hurry... which is what happens in both Colin's and my own scenario... in short, it works whether it was Piper or Williams...


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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by greg parker on Fri 23 Sep 2016, 12:15 pm

greg parker wrote:I post this excerpt based on something Colin said in the podcast - that is that the chicken lunch remnants left behind are indicative of someone leaving in a hurry... which is what happens in both Colin's and my own scenario... in short, it works whether it was Piper or Williams...

This has to also been seen in light of the very strong possibility that no shots were fired from the TSBD. But at very least someone had to be up there with the intent of being noticed as if shooting in order to aid the frame.

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 23 Sep 2016, 6:53 pm

But at very least someone had to be up there with the intent of being noticed as if shooting in order to aid the frame.


Absolutely! One thing that keeps me believing that shots were in fact fired from the sixth floor window is Bonnie Ray Williams first day affidavit in which he states that two shots were fired from above his head:

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338434/m1/1/

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Re: Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

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