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Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by greg parker on Tue 06 Aug 2013, 12:50 pm

beowulf wrote:I've seen assassination references literature to "ATF agents" but the ATF wasn't creating until 1968. In 1963 the "Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Division" was part of the IRS (itself in the Treasury Dept)... I'm just not sure if in 1963 they'd be called Treasury agents, IRS agents or ATTD agents (or reading Richard downthread,AT&T agents).

edit: While on the topic of obscure federal law enforcement agencies, I find it odd that Postal Inspector HD Holmes was apparently an FBI informant. The Postal Inspection Service is a federal law enforcement agency, I've never heard of a federal agency recruiting an agent of another federal agency as an informant.  It sounds kind of shady, really. I can't imagine the Postmaster General (until the 1970s, a member of President's cabinet) would condone that if he knew.
 http://www.911jobforums.com/f58/us-postal-inspector-firearms-19666/#

 Thanks for the link. Some interesting commentary - not least being that the USPIS will keep on a case "until the last dog is dead". 

Have never seen Holmes' role as FBI informant questioned before -- but thinking about it, what you say has a ring of truth to it. The question then becomes - how did this happen? Was he even real inspector? Federal agencies do use other agencies for cover - was this what was happening? Was he really employed by the FBI or some other agency?

Can't recall particulars of the top, but Postal Inspectors did visit Oswald in around Oct 62... too late though, he had already moved on. They wanted to confirm he did in fact wish to receive certain material through the mail per a newly enacted law. I do recall there being some suspicion that these were really FBI agents... not PIs as the record reflects...

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I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by beowulf on Tue 06 Aug 2013, 3:04 pm

Postal Inspectors may have visited at the behest of the FBI (and no doubt  shared information with each other), but I doubt an FBI agent would pretend to be a Postal Inspector, or vice versa. What would be the point? To a civilian or criminal who's flashed a badge, a federal agent is a federal agent. Its a little different with a CIA officer or an Army intelligence corps member pretending to be a federal agent, they're pretending because they're breaking the law (Congress has not given the CIA or the military any law enforcement authority).

Anyway, my  general theory about Holmes had been if he was a Confidential Informant for the FBI (vs. sharing information through official channels), it was because he owed them a big favor, like they caught him doing something and looked the other way. But there was a Reuters story today that makes me think Holmes was up to something else (still shady though).

 If Holmes was learning useful information from committing illegal acts (like opening and reading mail without a search warrant), he couldn't report that through official channels but as a CI  he could share info gleaned from the letters with the FBI, who could then ask a judge for a search or arrest warrant based on the CI report.  Things might have gotten a little sticky if the Warren Commission was asking questions that could only be answered truthfully by revealing the illegal mail searches. Anyway, the Reuters story today was about the Feds playing this game with NSA surveillance data.  I think this was what Holmes was up to (just not so high-tech):

"In a Florida drug case he was handling, the prosecutor said, a DEA agent told him the investigation of a U.S. citizen began with a tip from an informant. When the prosecutor pressed for more information, he said, a DEA supervisor intervened and revealed that the tip had actually come... from an NSA intercept."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805

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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Tue 06 Aug 2013, 8:25 pm

Anyway, my general theory about Holmes had been if he was a Confidential Informant for the FBI (vs. sharing information through official channels), it was because he owed them a big favor, like they caught him doing something and looked the other way. But there was a Reuters story today that makes me think Holmes was up to something else (still shady though).

According to page 2 of the following Baylor file, Harry Holmes was Dallas confidential FBI informant T-2.

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/52291/rec/6

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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by greg parker on Tue 06 Aug 2013, 9:19 pm

greg parker wrote:Can't recall particulars of the top, but Postal Inspectors did visit Oswald in around Oct 62... too late though, he had already moved on. They wanted to confirm he did in fact wish to receive certain material through the mail per a newly enacted law. I do recall there being some suspicion that these were really FBI agents... not PIs as the record reflects...

beowulf wrote:Postal Inspectors may have visited at the behest of the FBI (and no doubt  shared information with each other), but I doubt an FBI agent would pretend to be a Postal Inspector, or vice versa. What would be the point? To a civilian or criminal who's flashed a badge, a federal agent is a federal agent. Its a little different with a CIA officer or an Army intelligence corps member pretending to be a federal agent, they're pretending because they're breaking the law (Congress has not given the CIA or the military any law enforcement authority).
Okay. Have refreshed my memory.

Oswald's former landlord reported that two PIs visited  the Mercades St address in relation to Russian paper subscriptions. Oswald had already moved.

What made me think these may possibly have been FBI men was this from the Church Committee Report:

"Seven Special Agents are assigned to [Survey No. 1] on a full-time basis. The survey operates 7 days a week and personnel work on rotating 8-hour shifts . . . Personnel assigned to the survey work under the guise of Postal Inspectors  "

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
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Out to where the van is waiting
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            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by beowulf on Wed 07 Aug 2013, 12:24 am

Thanks Greg. I'd never seen the Church Committee's discussion of this before. I'd argue FBI agents pretending to be Postal Inspectors in order to search sealed mail without a warrant falls under the "they're pretending because they're breaking the law" exception.  Hoover knew the mail program was  illegal so he had FBI agents pretend to be Postal Inspectors to muddy the waters if anything leaked.  From googling your Church Comm. quote, I saw this on same webpage.


Wannall believed that there was a genuine "question in [Hoover's] mind about the legality" of mail opening, and noted that by at least 1970... Hoover clearly considered mail opening to be outside the framework of the law... Hoover was concerned that the perceived illegality of the technique would lead to an adverse public reaction damaging to the FBI and other intelligence agencies if its use were made known...
http://www.raven1.net/cointeldocs/churchfinalreportIIIh.htm

That's a fascinating report, the CIA had its own mail program going on at the same time, which they also disguised by pretending to be something they were not, like during their temporary 1957 mail intercept program in New Orleans... "The agents' CIA affiliation was known to at least two of the Customs officials; postal employees who worked in the building, however, were informed that they were Customs Service personnel. At the end of each day, the mail would be re-sealed, rebagged, and returned to the mail dock." 

Hmm, who do we know from New Orleans who was rumored to be a Customs Service informant?  Surprised)

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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 09 Aug 2013, 5:57 am

The following is an interview of Ochus Campbell by DPD detective Jim Leavelle. I found it in Box 3 of the Dallas Municipal archives:

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/10/1019-001.gif       http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/10/1019-002.gif

“I heard the shots, it sounded like they came from the knoll near the railroad tracks. I thought it was fire crackers. A uniform Officer [Baker] came up and at the same time a construction worker [Brennan] with a helmet on came across the street and said he had seen a rifle barrel in the sixth floor window. I walked back in the building. Mr Truly and the Officer had already gone in and up the stairs……. When Mr. Truly came down he said one of his employees was missing, a man named Oswald.”

As we already know, Campbell was quoted by the New York Herald Tribune as saying that shortly after entering the building, he had seen Oswald inside the Storage room on the first floor; corroborating Kent Biffle who overheard Roy Truly telling this to Captain Fritz. This interview confirms that Campbell had gone into the building, and did not take off towards the railroad tracks.
Notice how he says; “When Mr. Truly came down the stairs he said one of his employees was missing, a man named Oswald.” It sounds Truly told him straight away that Oswald was missing; without doing a bullshit roll call to determine that this was the case.

Very interesting, don’t you think?

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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by greg parker on Fri 09 Aug 2013, 8:35 am

Hasan,

Campbell is one of those guys who gave a different account every time he was interviewed. He is a classic case of first account being most reliable.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
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I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 09 Aug 2013, 9:39 am

Thanks, Greg. I will need to read every single one of Campbell's FBI interviews again.

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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by greg parker on Fri 09 Aug 2013, 9:54 am

Hasan Yusuf wrote:Thanks, Greg. I will need to read every single one of Campbell's FBI interviews again.
 No worries. And by "first account" here, I mean the newspaper article (in case that wasn't clear).

_________________
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            Billy Bragg
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             Lachie Hulme            
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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by beowulf on Fri 09 Aug 2013, 12:37 pm

A pity Tom Alyea's 16mm camera in the TSBD didn't record sound. I bet he would have captured some very interesting conversations.

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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by greg parker on Fri 09 Aug 2013, 1:59 pm

beowulf wrote:A pity Tom Alyea's 16mm camera in the TSBD didn't record sound. I bet he would have captured some very interesting conversations.
 Yep. But how likely is it we would have ever got to hear it?

Reminds me of Ron Reiland -- a very experienced cameraman who blew the biggest job of his life filming the arrest of Oswald. Wouldn't you know it, poor Ron's film turned out woefully under-exposed!

If Alyea had sound, I can just imagine it --oops - forgot to flick the sound switch!

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
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While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Sat 10 Aug 2013, 7:19 pm

greg parker wrote:No worries. And by "first account" here, I mean the newspaper article (in case that wasn't clear).
No problem. I understand, Greg.

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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by greg parker on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 1:02 pm

bump

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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by Guest on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 1:15 pm

Dunno i'm a n00b 'kay

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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by Guest on Sun 27 Jul 2014, 9:02 am

Colonel Von Hello wrote:What timescales do you guys put on Luke Mooney being inside the TSBD?  I know it's difficult to ascertain times with any degree of accuracy but Mooney claims he heard the shots and at full speed ran to the knoll, looked in the car park, saw the "negro porter" but within seconds was asked to help seal off the TSBD.  He claims he put a civilian on the back gates to guard it, then got into the NorthWest elevator, got to the second floor before the power cut off then started up the stairs and he stopped on sixth floor.  In his testimony he claims:

Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

Joseph Ball was, as was his usual practice, not interested in these "plainclothes...deputy sheriffs" who were on their way down the stairs so soon after the assassination.  How did Mooney know they were Deputy Sheriffs and who were they?

I have a question about this.

Do we know "exactly" what time the power cut off?

When the power cuts off, all the clocks stop, right?

So.... did anyone look?

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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by Colin Crow on Sun 27 Jul 2014, 11:13 am

The elevators were operational for some minutes. The west elevator moved at least from an upper floor to the first while Baker and Truly ascended from floors 2 to 5. This is likely 2-3 minutes after the shots. Truly and Baker took the east elevator from 5-7 and then down to 1. On the way down they interacted briefly with Sawyer on 4. Sawyer took the front passenger elevator from 1 to 4 about 4 minutes after the shots. He came down a few minutes later. 

It would seem the power cut to the elevators occurred about 7 minutes or later after the shots. In a recent interview with Mooney he claimed the power did not return until after he left the 6th floor. It may have been off for 20-30 minutes if that is true.

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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by Guest on Mon 28 Jul 2014, 6:55 am

Colin Crow wrote:The elevators were operational for some minutes. The west elevator moved at least from an upper floor to the first while Baker and Truly ascended from floors 2 to 5. This is likely 2-3 minutes after the shots. Truly and Baker took the east elevator from 5-7 and then down to 1. On the way down they interacted briefly with Sawyer on 4. Sawyer took the front passenger elevator from 1 to 4 about 4 minutes after the shots. He came down a few minutes later. 

It would seem the power cut to the elevators occurred about 7 minutes or later after the shots. In a recent interview with Mooney he claimed the power did not return until after he left the 6th floor. It may have been off for 20-30 minutes if that is true.

Hi Colin - Yeah. That's the problem. "Some minutes". "Likely" 2-3 minutes after the shots.

Correct, the power seems to have been off for "quite a while". We don't know exactly how long, right? And, we also don't know exactly when it started, either.

So now, question: you indicated the elevators. Was it the elevators "only", or was it the power to the entire building? (Including the digital clock on top, perhaps?)

What do we know specifically about the power? In other words, building power is not a do-it-yourself thing. You can not "flip a circuit breaker" to turn the elevator system on and off. (Not even back in the early 60's).

What do we know about that? There had to be either an elevator repair/service person involved, OR, the Dallas Department of Water and Power (or both). Do we have any kind of service records, or what exactly is the story around the power loss?

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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by Guest on Mon 28 Jul 2014, 3:20 pm

Anoher long post lost. I give up. Let's get some auto-save. Grrr...  Don't even think abo

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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by Stan Dane on Mon 28 Jul 2014, 3:29 pm

Recommendation: when you are putting together a substantial post, use Word (or some word processor) to prepare your content. Then when finished, cut & paste them into your post. It can save a lot of grief.

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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by greg parker on Mon 28 Jul 2014, 4:31 pm

nonsqtr wrote:Anoher long post lost. I give up. Let's get some auto-save. Grrr...  Don't even think abo
Brian,

The late Jack White used to complain constantly and LOUDLY at the ed Forum (one o' them there fancy high-falutin' stand-alone forums) about losing posts, not being allowed to post, trouble posting photos... the list was lengthy. 

Jack was always given sound advice - including writing it up on Word first, same as Stan has suggested here. Jack always ignored that advice because if he actually took it and it worked, he would no longer be able to claim the PTB were trying to silence him.   Go for it! 

One moral of this story is that them fancy high-falutin' stand-alone forums have the same posting issues as this humble free forum. Another is that no one here would get away with the sort of BS behavior JW pulled in order to convince people he was such a threat to the status quo that they had to try and stop him posting his Frankenstein Oswald's and accompanying commentaries.

But that's by the by... try Stan's suggestion and you'll be fine.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by Colin Crow on Tue 29 Jul 2014, 1:07 am

nonsqtr wrote:
Colin Crow wrote:The elevators were operational for some minutes. The west elevator moved at least from an upper floor to the first while Baker and Truly ascended from floors 2 to 5. This is likely 2-3 minutes after the shots. Truly and Baker took the east elevator from 5-7 and then down to 1. On the way down they interacted briefly with Sawyer on 4. Sawyer took the front passenger elevator from 1 to 4 about 4 minutes after the shots. He came down a few minutes later. 

It would seem the power cut to the elevators occurred about 7 minutes or later after the shots. In a recent interview with Mooney he claimed the power did not return until after he left the 6th floor. It may have been off for 20-30 minutes if that is true.

Hi Colin - Yeah. That's the problem. "Some minutes". "Likely" 2-3 minutes after the shots.

Correct, the power seems to have been off for "quite a while". We don't know exactly how long, right? And, we also don't know exactly when it started, either.

So now, question: you indicated the elevators. Was it the elevators "only", or was it the power to the entire building? (Including the digital clock on top, perhaps?)

What do we know specifically about the power? In other words, building power is not a do-it-yourself thing. You can not "flip a circuit breaker" to turn the elevator system on and off. (Not even back in the early 60's).

What do we know about that? There had to be either an elevator repair/service person involved, OR, the Dallas Department of Water and Power (or both). Do we have any kind of service records, or what exactly is the story around the power loss?
I'm fairly sure the elevators stopped after 7 minutes post shots. Sawyer uses the passenger elevator to go up and down. Truly and Baker return from the roof via the east elevator. As for the power, Geneva Hine reported the phones ringing shortly after the shots.

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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Tue 29 Jul 2014, 1:28 am

FWIW: I believe there is good reason to believe that Luke Mooney entered the TSBD at around 1:00 pm.

http://www.ctka.net/2014/hill.html

Is there any reason to believe that there couldn't have possibly been a power cut out at around 1:00 pm?

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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by beowulf on Wed 30 Jul 2014, 2:46 am

FWIW didn't Gerry Hemming suggest assassins escaped from 6th floor by rappelling down elevator shaft and then out 2nd floor window on rear side of TSBD?

That never sounded very plausible to me but I can't think of any other reason power would be cut to elevator. The police could have cut it to channelize everyone coming in or out to the stairwells but were that the case, surely some cop or another would have taken credit for the action.

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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by greg parker on Wed 30 Jul 2014, 5:42 am

beowulf wrote:FWIW didn't Gerry Hemming suggest assassins escaped from 6th floor by rappelling down elevator shaft and then out 2nd floor window on rear side of TSBD?

That never sounded very plausible to me but I can't think of any other reason power would be cut to elevator. The police could have cut it to channelize everyone coming in or out to the stairwells but were that the case, surely some cop or another would have taken credit for the action.
As far as I am aware, this would not be plausible at all because the windows of all lower floors could not be opened due to the air-conditioning.

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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

Post by Guest on Wed 30 Jul 2014, 4:50 pm

Hasan Yusuf wrote:FWIW: I believe there is good reason to believe that Luke Mooney entered the TSBD at around 1:00 pm.

http://www.ctka.net/2014/hill.html

Is there any reason to believe that there couldn't have possibly been a power cut out at around 1:00 pm?

Yes, exactly. Mooney reports power being cut as the elevator stopped on the second floor. But he doesn't say whether it was "just" the elevator - and Vicki Adams is the other one, and she isn't all that clear either. The bonehead corrupt Warren Commission didn't follow up on that piece either....

Btw, kudos on that piece, it's wonderfully documented! I could practically lift the text and enter it directly into my web site, all the cross references are right there. It's such a breath of fresh air, "most" (and I do mean "most") writers seem to assume we should be accepting certain things as self-evident, while I'm more interested in "which" piece(s) of evidence they've latched onto to corroborate their models.

So - Buell Frazier - goes down to the basement of the TSBD after the shooting - according to my read he was on the 1st floor long enough to see Sandra what's-her-name and the guys standing there having a discussion near the stairs - and then he comes up with this cockamamie story about having his lunch conveniently 'stashed' in the basement - so he disappears for "ten or fifteen" minutes, supposedly to eat his lunch. And, the electrical panel for the TSBD is in the basement. However, the times don't match.... "exactly". Although they could be "made" to match, with a few minor adjustments...

And then there is the elevator control shack on the roof, which Marrion Baker supposedly checked out in the first few minutes after the shooting and found "nothing of interest". It doesn't seem he looked "inside" though, it seems he climbed ten-ish feet of the stairs and didn't see anyone hanging around and didn't see the door ajar, so he continued with the rest of his searching. (He did apparently climb a few feet of the stairs leading up to the clock, if memory serves).

Seems to me there's still about a 10-minute discrepancy in there somewhere, in terms of possible culprits. IF someone cut the elevator power, they had to be in one of two places: either in the elevator shack on the roof, or by the electrical panel in the basement. And either way, they would have had to know something about electricity and building wiring and elevators. Which would then beg the question, "why" - at that particular moment? What else was going on at that moment? Was Brown Coat Man making his run for the Rambler or something? Smile

Another possibility is that someone opened one of the gates and Luke Mooney didn't know anything about the elevator, so he just assumed power had been cut. Do the Vicki Adams times corroborate the Mooney times, or do they differ? Is there a chance they could be talking about different incidents?

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Re: Baker's HSCA interview Shows He was Given His Later Story

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