Who ordered the building sealed?

In their combined after-action report to Chief Curry (DPD Archives, Box 14, Folder# 4, Item# 10, page 22)
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm
Batchelor, Lumpkin and Stevenson wrote that on returning to the TSBD they conferred with Inspector Sawyer. They wrote that, “Sawyer had placed guards on the building to prevent anyone from going in or coming out.”


“At that time Lumpkin entered the building and instructed that it be completely sealed off, that no one be allowed to leave or enter.”...

From the Dallas Dispatch tapes:
  12:49

15 (Capt. C.E. Talbert)

15 is at the scene. We -- the building's the old Purse Company on the east side of Houston. Somebody cut off the back side, will you? Make sure nobody leaves there.

15	15's in charge down here. Correction, 5's (Dept. Chief G.L. Lumpkin) in charge.

Mr. FRITZ. Well, sir; we arrived there---we arrived at the hospital at 12:45, if you want that time, and at the scene of the offense at 12:58.
Mr. BALL. 12:58; the Texas School Book Depository Building.


Mr. FRITZ. After I arrived one of the officers asked me if I would like to have the building sealed and I told him I would.
Mr. BALL. What officer was that?
Mr. FRITZ. That is a uniformed officer,  

Sawyer's WC testimony:
Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, did you give the instructions not to let anyone in or out?
Mr. SAWYER. I did.
Mr. BELIN. Did you give those instructions before or after you came down from the fourth floor or top floor?
Mr. SAWYER. After I got down.

Forrest Sorrels' WC testimony:
How much time do you think elapsed from the time the shots were fired until the time you returned to the Book Depository?
Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been over about 20 minutes, because we went to the hospital just as fast as we possibly could, and I wasn't there very long.
And we came back as fast as we could.
Of course we didn't get back as fast as we went out there, because traffic was moving.
The other way it was just cleared out to the Trade Mart. We had clear sailing from the time that the shots were fired until we got to the Trade Mart, because that was the route that we were going to go anyway. And that was cleared out.
But coming back, of course, there was traffic. We did come back under lights and siren, as fast as we could.
But there was traffic that slowed us up some.
Mr. STERN - So you estimate not more than 20 minutes?
Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been more than 20 or 25 minutes at the very most.
Mr. STERN - There was no policeman stationed at the loading platform when you came up?
Mr. SORRELS - I did not see one; no, sir.
Mr. STERN - And you were able to enter the building without identifying yourself?
Mr. SORRELS - Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN - Then you got inside the building and what did you do?
Mr. SORRELS - I asked for the manager, and I was directed to Mr. Truly. He was standing there.
I went up and identified myself to him. I said, "I want to get a stenographer, and we would like to have you put down the names and addresses of every employee of the building, in the building."


On the one hand, it could be said that this was a good thing. You have several policemen in positions of authority (captains, inspectors, deputy chiefs) ordering that the building be sealed off, preventing anyone from escaping. On the other hand, you've got several people issuing orders at the same time. Who does the average policeman obey, and how do they carry out their instructions?


I think this is important, because I have cross referenced WC testimony, after-action reports, and the dispatch tapes, and I've come to believe that Truly approached Deputy Chief Lumpkin and told him about Oswald being missing, before the building was sealed off and anyone could have come and gone.
In his WC testimony, Truly said that he approached Lumpkin around 11:50. 
In his after-action report, Lumpkin would write:


“A few minutes after arrival at the building, Mr. Truly, building manager, went to Lumpkin and stated that he had some information that one of his employees that had been there until a few minutes earlier was now missing.”
In the Dispatch Tapes, Talbert was reporting that Lumpkin was in the building as of 12:49.
Sorrels didn't arrive until around 1:00 PM, and the back door wasn't secured yet; and Fritz didn't arrive until 12:58 and ordered the building locked down.

When Truly testified to the WC, he said he got Oswald's description from Aiken at the other warehouse off Oswald's job application.
Representative FORD. In your description of Oswald to Captain Fritz, did you describe the kind of clothes that Oswald had on that day?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. No, sir; I just told him his name and where he lived and his telephone number and his age, as 23, and I said 5 feet, 9, about 150 pounds, light brown hair--whatever I picked up off the description there. I did not try to depend on my memory to describe him. I just put down what was on this application blank. That's the reason I called Mr. Aiken, because I did not want to mislead anybody as to a description. I might call a man brown-halted, and he might be blonde.


The only problem is, is that Oswald's TSBD application does not say what color his hair is:

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0118b.htm 


In his after-action report, Lumpkin wrote:


"Lieutenant Erich Kaminski was placed on the inner door of the building...As each office and floor was cleared the employees were stopped by Kaminski and Mr. Truly at the front door where their names, addresses and telephone numbers were written down, and they were identified by Mr. Truly as to their employment.” “A few minutes after arrival at the bulding, Mr. Truly, building manager, went to Lumpkin and stated that he had some information that one of his employees that had been there until a few minutes earlier was now missing.”


Truly makes no mention of manning the front door with Kaminsky in his WC testimony.

This goes to the thread in this Forum asking if Truly was the source of the description that was put out on the radio, and I think Truly provided that description before the building was sealed off and it could be determined that Oswald was missing. 

Steve Thomas

Yep. Getting way too close, Steve. Lumkin's report is key.

Oswald flashed Kaminski his library card upside down and Truly vouched for him - then went straight to Lumpkin to report him missing.

Which is why the whole Kaminski-Truly vetting process was hushed up and replaced with the non-existent "roll-call".

Kaminski was one of Revill's men. Whether connected to this or not, he was eventually demoted.

In any valid attempt to get the facts, the cop who took those names at the door with Truly would be someone you'd want to talk to. So why wasn't he called up by the WC?

greg parker wrote:In any valid attempt to get the facts, the cop who took those names at the door with Truly would be someone you'd want to talk to. So why wasn't he called up by the WC?

Because while all facts are equal, some are "less" equal than others.

Stan Dane wrote:

greg parker wrote:In any valid attempt to get the facts, the cop who took those names at the door with Truly would be someone you'd want to talk to. So why wasn't he called up by the WC?

Because while all facts are equal, some are "less" equal than others.

Up until recent months I had believed the cop involved was Welcome Barnett. Can't recall if it was Bart, Ed or Hasan who brought the Lumpkin report to my attention, but it is a vital piece of the puzzle. I am absolutely convinced that the sequence of events was as I laid out with Truly clearing Oswald to leave and then going straight to Lumpkin to report him missing.

Now you have one of the players: Roy Truly - and you can work backwards from there - if you have certain other key information.

Steve, not sure if you hold a different view, but if you do, I suspect it is not as different as you might think.

greg parker wrote:


Now you have one of the players: Roy Truly - and you can work backwards from there - if you have certain other key information.

Steve, not sure if you hold a different view, but if you do, I suspect it is not as different as you might think.

Greg,

I actually started with Whitmeyer, trying to figure out if he went back to the TSBD from Parkland with Lumpkin.
That led me to Truly and the more I read of his testimony, the more suspicious I got of his account.
Not the 90 seconds that everyone has been debating for years and years, but what happened afterwards.
In any given murder trial the prosecutor has to show the jury that the suspect had means, motive and opportunity, and I began to realize how crucial Truly was in showing that Oswald had to alibi. He couldn't account for his whereabouts.
Truly's testimony gave the Warren Commission fits.

Read the second part of his appearance before the WC here:
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/truly2.htm

They kept coming back, and kept coming back to when he reported to Fitz that Oswald was missing and tried to get Truly to say it was when the rifle was found. I wondered why.
Fritz testified to the WC three weeks before Truly, and he told them that Truly had approached him up on the 6th floor when the rifle was found. That was at 1:22 PM. Truly was telling them that he had reported Oswald missing at 12:50 or so.
They knew they had a problem. I believe that they knew the building hadn't been sealed off yet and anyone could have come and gone. Truly gave the game away when he told that even though a couple of other guys were missing, Oswald was the only one he called Aiken about.

I'm curious now about how close Truly was to Byrd, the owner.

Mr. BALL. And you are superintendent of the Texas School Book Depository? 
Mr. TRULY. That's correct. 
Mr. BALL. Is that your title? 
Mr. TRULY. And a director of the Depository. 

Steve Thomas

Steve Thomas wrote:Mr. BALL. And you are superintendent of the Texas School Book Depository? 
Mr. TRULY. That's correct. 
Mr. BALL. Is that your title? 
Mr. TRULY. And a director of the Depository. 

Steve, there are certain things I've been holding back for my book, but have been encouraged by someone to present it all at the Conference I hope to hold later this year.

I decided that I should do exactly that, even if the book is not finished by then. It has been help up and put back for various reasons to the point I have some concern that I may never get it done. One way or another, the information will get out.

The forum is not the place to present it. It will just suffer the same fate as other research has - disappear to page 288 and be largely unread or forgotten.

I will say that you're in the right ball park.

Steve Thomas wrote:In their combined after-action report to Chief Curry (DPD Archives, Box 14, Folder# 4, Item# 10, page 22)
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm
In his after-action report, Lumpkin wrote:


"Lieutenant Erich Kaminski was placed on the inner door of the building...As each office and floor was cleared the employees were stopped by Kaminski and Mr. Truly at the front door where their names, addresses and telephone numbers were written down, and they were identified by Mr. Truly as to their employment.”

Truly makes no mention of manning the front door with Kaminsky in his WC testimony.

Steve Thomas

Over the years, people have wondered how the Elsbeth St. address got on the list of TSBD employees that Westphal prepared for Gannaway via Jack Revill.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=277&tab=page

What if Oswald was stopped at the front door and the cop said, You got any ID", and Oswald gave him the only thing in his wallet that had an address on it, his library card. Kaminski wote it down and gave it back him. Truly didn't look at the card, only said, "Yeah, he works here." He was going on the Irving St. address that he got from Aiken at the warehouse.

Unforuntaley, Kaminski did not file an after-action report with Curry on his duties that day, and he didn't testify before the WC.
In his WC testimony, Truly never mentions manning the front door with Kaminski.

I think it was exactly as Oswald told Fritz. There was no more work being done that day, so he went home.
Truly said that the place was "a madhouse". You had cops and Secret Service Agents (Sorrels) and ATTU guys (Elsworth, et.al.) and MI guys (Powell) and newsmen (Alman) running around.
And in Lumpkin's after-action report, he said that Revill's search teams were searching office by office and then closing and locking the doors behind them. Truly said that everyone was just standing around talking about the assassination and nobody was working.

Of course, the explanation I provided above doesn't take into account that the library card showed Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall as his place of employment.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=497&tab=page

Maybe Kaminski asked him about that and Oswald said, "that's where I used to work, but I work here now."
We'll never know because like I said, Kaminski didn't file a report and Truly doesn't talk about his front door work.
And it doesn't take into account the name reversal on Revill's list.

*shrug*

Steve Thomas

And it doesn't take into account the name reversal on Revill's list.

Steve, it doesn't if he hands it to Kaminski, but it does if he flashes it upside down to him.

The thing is that Oswald told Holmes that he was stopped by a cop and asked to step aside for a bit - presumably while Kaminski was organizing himself for his task, or was temporarily busy with something else. He also has Truly vouching for him. 

I maintain Oswald can't know that was the process to get out of there for everyone else - not unless he was actually there.

The 2nd floor encounter, IMO, was invented because Oswald is mentioning a cop with Truly vouching for him at the front door and is describing two sets of doors and a vestibule. He also talks about having a coke from the 2nd floor.

Truly gives his first statement not to the DPD but to the FBI who I am certain had a close relationship with TSBD through the FBI - American Legion Contact program (Cason had headed a local Legion group). 

So.... to cut to the chase.... they knew from Oswald that he was stopped by a cop at the front door and vouched for by Truly so they very cleverly picked the only other place in the building that had what could be described as a vestibule and two sets of doors - that also being the place they know Oswald had gone to at lunch time for his coke. 

Truly gave the name Mrs Reid who would help by saying she saw Oswald on the 2nd floor post-assassination on his way down and out. 

They were doing what cops of the period always did - they were scrambling to put together a scenario that worked with only a few tweaks to what the interrogations were producing. 

Those who say why didn't Fritz just say Oswald confessed to being on the 6th floor, are just flapping their gums. That's not how it worked. The changes in the story had to be minimal and believable. Another example is Bookhout (and Fritz) changing what Oswald said about seeing Jarman and Norman re-enter, to having lunch with them. It's not a drastic departure from the truth, but enough to be able to refute the 1st floor alibi.

greg parker wrote:

And it doesn't take into account the name reversal on Revill's list.

The thing is that Oswald told Holmes that he was stopped by a cop and asked to step aside for a bit - presumably while Kaminski was organizing himself for his task, or was temporarily busy with something else. He also has Truly vouching for him.

Greg,

It's interesting. Holmes talks about this in his memorandum of the interrogation of the 24th, but Kelley doesn't in his memo.

Kelley doesn't mention the policeman at the doorway, but does say that Oswald talked about a "crew-cut young man" who rushed up to him while he was standing outside, said he was from the Secret Service, showed him some identification, and asked where the telephone was. Oswald said he actually saw the man go to the telephone before he (Oswald) left.

Holmes doesn't mention this.
In his memo, Fritz doesn't mention either the policeman at the door, or the Secret Service Agent outside.

Interesting.

Sounds like the first broadcast description fits what Truly would know, then checking with Aiken for his DOB etc... 
Is that fitting the time line?
Then Talbert is asking if he had left the building yet at 12:45 and no sense in asking that if the building had been sealed off.

12:43.

We are going now.

IS - 15 Are they having them contain that block or two-block area.

Yes, we are trying to seal off that building until it can be searched.

More than the building extended out off that building until it can be
searched. (?)

67 calls

67

Did they head south.

Yes.

7

9

'fhe wanted person in there is a slender white male, about 30, 5* 10”, 165,
and carrying what looked like a 30-30 or some type of a Winchester.

It was a rifle.

A rifle, yes.

Any clothing description 9.

The current witness can*t remember that.

Attention all squads.

Attention all squads.

The suspect in the shooting at Him and Houston is reportedly an unknown
white male approximately 30, slender build, about S' 10", weighs 165 lbs.
reportedly armed with what is thought to be a .30 caliber rifle.

Attention all squads. The suspect from Elm and Houston is reported to be an
unknown white male, about 30, slender build, carrying what is thought to
be a 30-30 rifle. No further description at this time or information.

12:45 KKB 36.

Is 9 still on the air?

15

Get 9 to tell whether the man is still supposed to be in the building or has
he left.

Ed. Ledoux wrote:
67 calls

67

Did they head south.

Yes.


'fhe wanted person in there is a slender white male, about 30, 5* 10”, 165,
and carrying what looked like a 30-30 or some type of a Winchester.

It was a rifle.

A rifle, yes.

Any clothing description 9.

The current witness can*t remember that.

Attention all squads.

Attention all squads.

The suspect in the shooting at Him and Houston is reportedly an unknown
white male approximately 30, slender build, about S' 10", weighs 165 lbs.
reportedly armed with what is thought to be a .30 caliber rifle.

Attention all squads. The suspect from Elm and Houston is reported to be an
unknown white male, about 30, slender build, carrying what is thought to
be a 30-30 rifle. No further description at this time or information.


Get 9 to tell whether the man is still supposed to be in the building or has
he left.

It's interesting. The exact same description was broadcast out over the Sheriff's Department radio sometime between 12:49 and 12:53 PM.
 see CD 728 page 9
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11126#relPageId=10&tab=page

67 is identified as Patrolman W.A. Everett. He was also talking to the Sheriff's Department.

Steve Thomas

PS: Off topic and just as an aside, look at pp. 12 and 13 of those Sheriff's transcripts. At the same time they are trying to run down Tippit's shooter in the 1:24 PM time frame, the units are also supposed to be on the lookout for a white Pontiac station wagon with license plates starting with PE also on West Jefferson. The units are advised to "proceed with caution." You see the same thing in the Dallas City's dispatch tapes. I wonder if the police thought the man with a white jacket and black trousers and the white Pontiac were connected?

Steve Thomas

Mr. RANKIN - Now, these two teams that you referred to that the deputy chief appointed to search the building, do you know how many officers were in those teams?
Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I don't.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know whether the search was made?
Mr. CURRY - They reported to me that it was made, yes.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you know what else happened in regard to the building or the search for the assassin?
Mr. CURRY - After it was searched I understand it was sealed off and they were asked not to let anybody come or go from the building until further orders.
Mr. RANKIN - Then what happened after that?
Mr. DULLES - Could I inquire there. I thought it was sealed off previous to the search according to your previous testimony.
Mr. CURRY - It was. But after they searched it and all of the investigators left there, they asked Mr. Truly, I believe, the building manager, not to let anybody come and go.
Mr. DULLES - Was that supplemented, though, by the police?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; I believe we had officers there.
Mr. DULLES - Then there were in a way two sealings off. One that you gave the order was given 8 or 10 minutes----
Mr. CURRY - Almost immediately, yes.
Mr. DULLES - After the assassination, and then the other one was after this search had been made.
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.

I don't have back-up to support it but that first sealing off of the building sounds like a retroactive one, as in it looks like we should have but we didn't so we'll need to say we did. Yes, we did seal off the building. Then Truly ordered us to seal it off again. So we did that too.

Jake Sykes wrote:I don't have back-up to support it but that first sealing off of the building sounds like a retroactive one, as in it looks like we should have but we didn't so we'll need to say we did. Yes, we did seal off the building. Then Truly ordered us to seal it off again. So we did that too.

My thoughts exactly, Jake.

Look at what they are trying to sell. After the initial search, they just abandoned the sealing of the exits. But then luckily Lumpkin comes along and has the sense to reseal it, with yet more teams going through and clearing the building, with Truly and Kaminski as the final checkpoint.

and it looks like Dulles saw the flaw and attempted to seal that off too. He was always correcting the narrative instead of seeking out evidence.

Greg, could i ask you, what role do you think Dulles played? If any. In very general terms. Jim Di and Talbot make a compelling argument..
Do you see him as a conspirator? Knowingly complicit in the cover up? I know some people think he was at the very apex of the pyramid.
The Mary Bancroft/ Ruth Paine link ,however ,strikes me as counter intuitive. If you were in charge, or in a position of influence would you choose someone with such a clear, incontrovertible link t babysit your patsy?
I've often thought Dulles was in the patsy chain himself. The Bancroft/ Paine link could have been used t guarantee his compliance.
Also his presence on the Commission, investigating the assassination of the man who fired him from his job, raises all sorts of uncomfortable questions. Perhaps by design.
I've never bought into the idea of the vast conspiracy..CIA..FBI..SS..ONI..LCN..Dulles, Bush, Hoover..Uncle Tom Cobley, I've always thought a small fiercely disciplined cell pulled it off. with a nod of the head approval from some seriously high placed players. I think Oswald was meant t link t a commie conspiracy but the institution of Government, the continuity types cut them off and went with the Lone Nut solution. The lone nut frame has always struck me as hopelessly amateurish. Do you think this was by design? Or do you think it simply wasn't important, once the media behemoth kicked in and sprinkled its magic dust over Dealey Plaza. I've never bought into the idea of omniscient omnipotent sponsors either who could plan for decades ahead. I've studied history pretty closely and this concept just seems fantastical. The modern equivalent of demi gods lolling on Mount Olympus. Conspiratorial flights of fancy..giving the evil Gubment almost superhuman attributes.

People get too hung up on institutions..institutions are comprised of individuals after all.
Individuals pulled this off..then the corporate entity moved in and the lone nut myth was born.
I definitely think the Paines were involved, Salandrias description of his visit t them is deeply sinister.
I think you've made a compelling case for Truly as the inside man. The unarmed Truly running ahead of the armed Baker..the tan coated phantom on the 3rd / 4th floor..i think Buell Frazier knows a hell of a lot more..i think the old man must look back at his 19 year old self with a mixture of pity and horror. Only he knows the pressure he was under and the compromises he made.
The work ROKC has done t elucidate the mechanics of the assassination has been nothing short of spectacular. I just wondered, in the most general terms, who you thought were ultimately pulling the strings? You don't have t name names, just your basic conception of who was in the very highest echelon.
The " sponsors" if you will who had the power t authorise the assassination? I've always thought it was a group with supra national links, who understood the psychically debilitating power of the Cold War facade. But i could be mistaken.
Incidentally the Prayer Woman thread on Macraes tuppenny gaff shop has been magically shrunk..maybe he contacted Brian's headshrinking half brother Big Chief Hepatitis Doyle..a souvenir of Alberts sojourn to Polynesia..he was hired by the Ahnernebe t find a lost Aryan colony..

Alex,

anything is possible until it can be ruled out, but Dulles is not on my radar. He is an example of finding a potential suspect on grounds of motive and hoping no one notices you may not have nailed down means and opportunity because you know. CIA = Omnipotence so no need for all the little details.

Most claim there is the plot and the cover-up. 

My old stomping ground, Darwin, is said by most to only have two seasons - wet and dry. But there is in fact, a third season, known up there as "the Build Up." This is the period when the weather is transitioning from the dry to the wet. The humidity starts to increase and storm clouds roll in, but deliver little, if anything. The wet starts with the first such storm that does deliver the rain. 

Imo, with the assassination, we have The plot -> The frame -> The cover-up - and as with the built up, the frame offers some connectivity between the other two.

My list of persons/groups of interest.  I am not saying they are all involved. Some may not be at all, some may belong in only one of the 3 phases. In no particular order...

The Paines/Hokes
The Randles
Roy Truly
Bill Shelley
Fred Korth
Some associated with CAP
Some in Secret Service
Some in FBI
Some FBI informants
Some China Lobby with possible reach in to Pentagon
L Robert Castorr --> with reach into MI and CIA
Treasury Intelligence
Some cops -->some with reach into MI 
Some Birchers - some of whom were also involved with groups like AMORC
Navy League
Private/Corporate Security and Intelligence groups
Miss Prissy/Aline Mosby among other journalists
White Russian Solidarists (NTS) with possible links into CIA
Some in State Dept/US Embassy in Moscow
Some involved with Operations Redskin/Red Sox/Red Cap
Bill Lowery/Chuck Webster
Larry Crafard
Thomas Peasner
The Raggios
Jack Dougherty
-------------------

Potential other scapegoats (some as lone nuts, some as associated with Oswald in a small conspiracy, some as involved in a larger commie, rightist, jew or castro plot. Again, in no particular order

Buell Frazier,
Joe Molina/Molina's wife and church committee
Any of the Black workers in the TSBD
Marina
The Paines
George DeM
Robert McKeown
Anti-Castro Cubans
Pro-Castro Cubans
CUSA
Ruby
Robert Hatfield
Gen. Walker and his Merry Men
Russell McLarry
Individual on parade route - identity unknown
Larry Crafard
Thomas Peasner
Members of Indignant White Citizens Committee
FPCC
Jack Dougherty

You'll note a small number being on both lists.

alex wrote:The lone nut frame has always struck me as hopelessly amateurish. Do you think this was by design? Or do you think it simply wasn't important, once the media behemoth kicked in and sprinkled its magic dust over Dealey Plaza. 

Some of it may have been by design eg the fake Hidell card, to make it look like Oswald made the card himself.  

Someone in the planning knew the Dallas police penchant for taking the easy route to making a case. That is, getting a confession, and failing that, manufacturing the evidence and manipulating witnesses and their statements. They also knew they would jump on the first viable/semi-viable suspect they came across.

So a viable patsy is thrown to them.

They make the arrest.

They use all the usual techniques for breaking someone, short of physical torture, including producing manufactured evidence and junk science. None of it works. The transfer goes ahead and the phone threats becomes a reality.

The local press alone would never have picked up on the dodgy frame - probably not the defense lawyers or courts either, It was standard fare that had been ignored or not been picked up in the past. If it had been just an ordinary murder, it goes to trial.

It was the presence of the national and international media that spooked them. They could not go to trial with the shitty case they had, under those spotlights. Extra-judicial measure cleaned the whole thing up and it is still those measures that prevent justice now.

That said, I don't think the DPD manufactured all of the dodgy evidence. One example: The Hidell ID card, I believe, was made by someone in the Secret Service.

As for other things like the ordering of the weapons... it gets a bit murkier and more uncertain.  But there are other possibilities apart from the FBI.

Much appreciated Greg. Thanks for taking the time t explain your thoughts. I'm trying t develop my understanding beyond the usual suspects. IMHO the work here has blown huge Lifton ego sized holes through the accepted conspiracy narrative. So much of what i unquestioningly believed has turned out t b nothing more than a collection of poorly sourced canards and jerry built fairy tales.
Almost like the Warren Report for an alternative audience.

Hi Greg

 Do you feel that the Bushes, Nixon etc were involved?

Sorry for interrupting Vinny, but i was going t add that the "3 stage scenario" you outline kinda coalesces with my thinking. The plot and the frame as seperate operations, strictly compartmentalized with links only at the very top, then the cover up. Oswald the commie is suddenly transformed into Oswald the brooding misanthrope looking for revenge. I agree with what you once said about Armstrong, with his resources and the research he accumulated he could have written THE book on the case.
Perhaps there's a morality tale in there somewhere..beware the irrational power of pet theories..
I always thought Bundys call from the Situation Room t Air Force One was highly suggestive. Like Joe Alsops call t LBJ barely an hour or so after Oswalds death. The dread hand reaching out and making itself subtly but inexorably felt.
I agree with a lot of what Evica and PDS postulate, but they were of their time.
IMHO you and the guys here have far superseded and eclipsed their work.
That's why i joined.
I'm constantly trying t deepen my understanding of the case. So much evidence, evidence that had been venerated and carved in tablets of stone for decades, has been proven t b bogus.
Yes i noticed you had some names in both lists Greg, I've always thought people like the Paines involvement was multi faceted. They were used as easily as they could have been abused if the circumstances had demanded it.
The semi official conspiracy narrative in many ways has been more of an obstacle than the official lone nut fable.
So fucking what if a witness/ piece of evidence supports conspiracy if it can be proven t b false it deserves its rightful place on the ROKC sponsored rubbish heap of history.( otherwise known as JFK Assassination Forum)
I figured if i really wanted t learn about the case, why not learn from the best. It's no shame admitting ignorance but it is a terrible shame t maintain it. And far too many people on certain fora maintain their ignorance lovingly.
But no matter how pretty and enticing they may appear weeds will only ever be weeds.

True.Many do not want to let go of their pet theories. Even when the evidence proves that they are wrong.

Vinny wrote:Hi Greg

 Do you feel that the Bushes, Nixon etc were involved?

There's been some fanciful BS spun around possible Bush involvement.

Nixon is far more interesting. In his 1959 trip to the Soviet Union for example, he had talks about making it easier to choose were you live if you marry someone from the opposite side of the Cold War. The talks were proceeded by at least two notable marriages between US males and Soviet women and in both cases, it would be noted how easily the wives were permitted to leave.  

Yes, one of those was Oswald. The other was an exchange student.

alex wrote:I agree with what you once said about Armstrong, with his resources and the research he accumulated he could have written THE book on the case. 

Pretty sure I stole that off Lee Farley ;-)