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Who ordered the building sealed?

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Who ordered the building sealed?

Post by Steve Thomas on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 2:07 am

In their combined after-action report to Chief Curry (DPD Archives, Box 14, Folder# 4, Item# 10, page 22)
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm
Batchelor, Lumpkin and Stevenson wrote that on returning to the TSBD they conferred with Inspector Sawyer. They wrote that, “Sawyer had placed guards on the building to prevent anyone from going in or coming out.”


At that time Lumpkin entered the building and instructed that it be completely sealed off, that no one be allowed to leave or enter.”...

From the Dallas Dispatch tapes:
  12:49
15 (Capt. C.E. Talbert)15 is at the scene. We -- the building's the old Purse Company on the east side of Houston. Somebody cut off the back side, will you? Make sure nobody leaves there.


1515's in charge down here. Correction, 5's (Dept. Chief G.L. Lumpkin) in charge.

Mr. FRITZ. Well, sir; we arrived there---we arrived at the hospital at 12:45, if you want that time, and at the scene of the offense at 12:58.
Mr. BALL. 12:58; the Texas School Book Depository Building.


Mr. FRITZ. After I arrived one of the officers asked me if I would like to have the building sealed and I told him I would.
Mr. BALL. What officer was that?
Mr. FRITZ. That is a uniformed officer,  

Sawyer's WC testimony:
Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, did you give the instructions not to let anyone in or out?
Mr. SAWYER. I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you give those instructions before or after you came down from the fourth floor or top floor?
Mr. SAWYER. After I got down.


Forrest Sorrels' WC testimony:
How much time do you think elapsed from the time the shots were fired until the time you returned to the Book Depository?
Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been over about 20 minutes, because we went to the hospital just as fast as we possibly could, and I wasn't there very long.
And we came back as fast as we could.
Of course we didn't get back as fast as we went out there, because traffic was moving.
The other way it was just cleared out to the Trade Mart. We had clear sailing from the time that the shots were fired until we got to the Trade Mart, because that was the route that we were going to go anyway. And that was cleared out.
But coming back, of course, there was traffic. We did come back under lights and siren, as fast as we could.
But there was traffic that slowed us up some.
Mr. STERN - So you estimate not more than 20 minutes?
Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been more than 20 or 25 minutes at the very most.

Mr. STERN - There was no policeman stationed at the loading platform when you came up?
Mr. SORRELS - I did not see one; no, sir.
Mr. STERN - And you were able to enter the building without identifying yourself?
Mr. SORRELS - Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN - Then you got inside the building and what did you do?
Mr. SORRELS - I asked for the manager, and I was directed to Mr. Truly. He was standing there.
I went up and identified myself to him. I said, "I want to get a stenographer, and we would like to have you put down the names and addresses of every employee of the building, in the building."



On the one hand, it could be said that this was a good thing. You have several policemen in positions of authority (captains, inspectors, deputy chiefs) ordering that the building be sealed off, preventing anyone from escaping. On the other hand, you've got several people issuing orders at the same time. Who does the average policeman obey, and how do they carry out their instructions?


I think this is important, because I have cross referenced WC testimony, after-action reports, and the dispatch tapes, and I've come to believe that Truly approached Deputy Chief Lumpkin and told him about Oswald being missing, before the building was sealed off and anyone could have come and gone.
In his WC testimony, Truly said that he approached Lumpkin around 11:50. 
In his after-action report, Lumpkin would write:


A few minutes after arrival at the building, Mr. Truly, building manager, went to Lumpkin and stated that he had some information that one of his employees that had been there until a few minutes earlier was now missing.”
In the Dispatch Tapes, Talbert was reporting that Lumpkin was in the building as of 12:49.
Sorrels didn't arrive until around 1:00 PM, and the back door wasn't secured yet; and Fritz didn't arrive until 12:58 and ordered the building locked down.

When Truly testified to the WC, he said he got Oswald's description from Aiken at the other warehouse off Oswald's job application.
Representative FORD. In your description of Oswald to Captain Fritz, did you describe the kind of clothes that Oswald had on that day?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. No, sir; I just told him his name and where he lived and his telephone number and his age, as 23, and I said 5 feet, 9, about 150 pounds,
light brown hair--whatever I picked up off the description there. I did not try to depend on my memory to describe him. I just put down what was on this application blank. That's the reason I called Mr. Aiken, because I did not want to mislead anybody as to a description. I might call a man brown-halted, and he might be blonde.



The only problem is, is that Oswald's TSBD application does not say what color his hair is:

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0118b.htm 


In his after-action report, Lumpkin wrote:


"Lieutenant Erich Kaminski was placed on the inner door of the building...As each office and floor was cleared the employees were stopped by Kaminski and Mr. Truly at the front door where their names, addresses and telephone numbers were written down, and they were identified by Mr. Truly as to their employment.” “A few minutes after arrival at the bulding, Mr. Truly, building manager, went to Lumpkin and stated that he had some information that one of his employees that had been there until a few minutes earlier was now missing.”


Truly makes no mention of manning the front door with Kaminsky in his WC testimony.

This goes to the thread in this Forum asking if Truly was the source of the description that was put out on the radio, and I think Truly provided that description before the building was sealed off and it could be determined that Oswald was missing. 

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Re: Who ordered the building sealed?

Post by greg parker on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 5:47 am

Yep. Getting way too close, Steve. Lumkin's report is key.

Oswald flashed Kaminski his library card upside down and Truly vouched for him - then went straight to Lumpkin to report him missing.

Which is why the whole Kaminski-Truly vetting process was hushed up and replaced with the non-existent "roll-call".

Kaminski was one of Revill's men. Whether connected to this or not, he was eventually demoted.

In any valid attempt to get the facts, the cop who took those names at the door with Truly would be someone you'd want to talk to. So why wasn't he called up by the WC?

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Re: Who ordered the building sealed?

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 7:24 am

greg parker wrote:In any valid attempt to get the facts, the cop who took those names at the door with Truly would be someone you'd want to talk to. So why wasn't he called up by the WC?

Because while all facts are equal, some are "less" equal than others. Wink
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Re: Who ordered the building sealed?

Post by greg parker on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 8:18 am

Stan Dane wrote:
greg parker wrote:In any valid attempt to get the facts, the cop who took those names at the door with Truly would be someone you'd want to talk to. So why wasn't he called up by the WC?

Because while all facts are equal, some are "less" equal than others. Wink
Up until recent months I had believed the cop involved was Welcome Barnett. Can't recall if it was Bart, Ed or Hasan who brought the Lumpkin report to my attention, but it is a vital piece of the puzzle. I am absolutely convinced that the sequence of events was as I laid out with Truly clearing Oswald to leave and then going straight to Lumpkin to report him missing.

Now you have one of the players: Roy Truly - and you can work backwards from there - if you have certain other key information.

Steve, not sure if you hold a different view, but if you do, I suspect it is not as different as you might think.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

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             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
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Re: Who ordered the building sealed?

Post by Steve Thomas on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 9:49 am

greg parker wrote:


Now you have one of the players: Roy Truly - and you can work backwards from there - if you have certain other key information.

Steve, not sure if you hold a different view, but if you do, I suspect it is not as different as you might think.
Greg,

I actually started with Whitmeyer, trying to figure out if he went back to the TSBD from Parkland with Lumpkin.
That led me to Truly and the more I read of his testimony, the more suspicious I got of his account.
Not the 90 seconds that everyone has been debating for years and years, but what happened afterwards.
In any given murder trial the prosecutor has to show the jury that the suspect had means, motive and opportunity, and I began to realize how crucial Truly was in showing that Oswald had to alibi. He couldn't account for his whereabouts.
Truly's testimony gave the Warren Commission fits.

Read the second part of his appearance before the WC here:
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/truly2.htm

They kept coming back, and kept coming back to when he reported to Fitz that Oswald was missing and tried to get Truly to say it was when the rifle was found. I wondered why.
Fritz testified to the WC three weeks before Truly, and he told them that Truly had approached him up on the 6th floor when the rifle was found. That was at 1:22 PM. Truly was telling them that he had reported Oswald missing at 12:50 or so.
They knew they had a problem. I believe that they knew the building hadn't been sealed off yet and anyone could have come and gone. Truly gave the game away when he told that even though a couple of other guys were missing, Oswald was the only one he called Aiken about.

I'm curious now about how close Truly was to Byrd, the owner.

Mr. BALL. And you are superintendent of the Texas School Book Depository? 
Mr. TRULY. That's correct. 
Mr. BALL. Is that your title? 
Mr. TRULY. And a director of the Depository. 

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Re: Who ordered the building sealed?

Post by greg parker on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 10:48 am

Steve Thomas wrote:Mr. BALL. And you are superintendent of the Texas School Book Depository? 
Mr. TRULY. That's correct. 
Mr. BALL. Is that your title? 
Mr. TRULY. And a director of the Depository. 

Steve, there are certain things I've been holding back for my book, but have been encouraged by someone to present it all at the Conference I hope to hold later this year.

I decided that I should do exactly that, even if the book is not finished by then. It has been help up and put back for various reasons to the point I have some concern that I may never get it done. One way or another, the information will get out.

The forum is not the place to present it. It will just suffer the same fate as other research has - disappear to page 288 and be largely unread or forgotten.

I will say that you're in the right ball park.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Who ordered the building sealed?

Post by Steve Thomas on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 11:26 pm

Steve Thomas wrote:In their combined after-action report to Chief Curry (DPD Archives, Box 14, Folder# 4, Item# 10, page 22)
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm
In his after-action report, Lumpkin wrote:


"Lieutenant Erich Kaminski was placed on the inner door of the building...As each office and floor was cleared the employees were stopped by Kaminski and Mr. Truly at the front door where their names, addresses and telephone numbers were written down, and they were identified by Mr. Truly as to their employment.”

Truly makes no mention of manning the front door with Kaminsky in his WC testimony.

Steve Thomas
Over the years, people have wondered how the Elsbeth St. address got on the list of TSBD employees that Westphal prepared for Gannaway via Jack Revill.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=277&tab=page

What if Oswald was stopped at the front door and the cop said, You got any ID", and Oswald gave him the only thing in his wallet that had an address on it, his library card. Kaminski wote it down and gave it back him. Truly didn't look at the card, only said, "Yeah, he works here." He was going on the Irving St. address that he got from Aiken at the warehouse.

Unforuntaley, Kaminski did not file an after-action report with Curry on his duties that day, and he didn't testify before the WC.
In his WC testimony, Truly never mentions manning the front door with Kaminski.

I think it was exactly as Oswald told Fritz. There was no more work being done that day, so he went home.
Truly said that the place was "a madhouse". You had cops and Secret Service Agents (Sorrels) and ATTU guys (Elsworth, et.al.) and MI guys (Powell) and newsmen (Alman) running around.
And in Lumpkin's after-action report, he said that Revill's search teams were searching office by office and then closing and locking the doors behind them. Truly said that everyone was just standing around talking about the assassination and nobody was working.

Of course, the explanation I provided above doesn't take into account that the library card showed Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall as his place of employment.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=497&tab=page

Maybe Kaminski asked him about that and Oswald said, "that's where I used to work, but I work here now."
We'll never know because like I said, Kaminski didn't file a report and Truly doesn't talk about his front door work.
And it doesn't take into account the name reversal on Revill's list.

*shrug*

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Re: Who ordered the building sealed?

Post by greg parker on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 11:53 pm

And it doesn't take into account the name reversal on Revill's list.
Steve, it doesn't if he hands it to Kaminski, but it does if he flashes it upside down to him.

The thing is that Oswald told Holmes that he was stopped by a cop and asked to step aside for a bit - presumably while Kaminski was organizing himself for his task, or was temporarily busy with something else. He also has Truly vouching for him. 

I maintain Oswald can't know that was the process to get out of there for everyone else - not unless he was actually there.

The 2nd floor encounter, IMO, was invented because Oswald is mentioning a cop with Truly vouching for him at the front door and is describing two sets of doors and a vestibule. He also talks about having a coke from the 2nd floor.

Truly gives his first statement not to the DPD but to the FBI who I am certain had a close relationship with TSBD through the FBI - American Legion Contact program (Cason had headed a local Legion group). 

So.... to cut to the chase.... they knew from Oswald that he was stopped by a cop at the front door and vouched for by Truly so they very cleverly picked the only other place in the building that had what could be described as a vestibule and two sets of doors - that also being the place they know Oswald had gone to at lunch time for his coke. 

Truly gave the name Mrs Reid who would help by saying she saw Oswald on the 2nd floor post-assassination on his way down and out. 

They were doing what cops of the period always did - they were scrambling to put together a scenario that worked with only a few tweaks to what the interrogations were producing. 

Those who say why didn't Fritz just say Oswald confessed to being on the 6th floor, are just flapping their gums. That's not how it worked. The changes in the story had to be minimal and believable. Another example is Bookhout (and Fritz) changing what Oswald said about seeing Jarman and Norman re-enter, to having lunch with them. It's not a drastic departure from the truth, but enough to be able to refute the 1st floor alibi.


Last edited by greg parker on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 7:21 am; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Who ordered the building sealed?

Post by Steve Thomas on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 1:41 am

greg parker wrote:
And it doesn't take into account the name reversal on Revill's list.


The thing is that Oswald told Holmes that he was stopped by a cop and asked to step aside for a bit - presumably while Kaminski was organizing himself for his task, or was temporarily busy with something else. He also has Truly vouching for him.
Greg,

It's interesting. Holmes talks about this in his memorandum of the interrogation of the 24th, but Kelley doesn't in his memo.

Kelley doesn't mention the policeman at the doorway, but does say that Oswald talked about a "crew-cut young man" who rushed up to him while he was standing outside, said he was from the Secret Service, showed him some identification, and asked where the telephone was. Oswald said he actually saw the man go to the telephone before he (Oswald) left.

Holmes doesn't mention this.
In his memo, Fritz doesn't mention either the policeman at the door, or the Secret Service Agent outside.

Interesting.

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Re: Who ordered the building sealed?

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 8:07 am

Sounds like the first broadcast description fits what Truly would know, then checking with Aiken for his DOB etc... 
Is that fitting the time line?
Then Talbert is asking if he had left the building yet at 12:45 and no sense in asking that if the building had been sealed off.

12:43.

We are going now.

IS - 15 Are they having them contain that block or two-block area.

Yes, we are trying to seal off that building until it can be searched.

More than the building extended out off that building until it can be
searched. (?)

67 calls

67

Did they head south.

Yes.

7

9

'fhe wanted person in there is a slender white male, about 30, 5* 10”, 165,
and carrying what looked like a 30-30 or some type of a Winchester.

It was a rifle.

A rifle, yes.

Any clothing description 9.

The current witness can*t remember that.

Attention all squads.

Attention all squads.

The suspect in the shooting at Him and Houston is reportedly an unknown
white male approximately 30, slender build, about S' 10", weighs 165 lbs.
reportedly armed with what is thought to be a .30 caliber rifle.

Attention all squads. The suspect from Elm and Houston is reported to be an
unknown white male, about 30, slender build, carrying what is thought to
be a 30-30 rifle. No further description at this time or information.

12:45 KKB 36.

Is 9 still on the air?

15

Get 9 to tell whether the man is still supposed to be in the building or has
he left.
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Re: Who ordered the building sealed?

Post by Steve Thomas on Thu 02 Feb 2017, 7:36 pm

Ed. Ledoux wrote:
67 calls

67

Did they head south.

Yes.


'fhe wanted person in there is a slender white male, about 30, 5* 10”, 165,
and carrying what looked like a 30-30 or some type of a Winchester.

It was a rifle.

A rifle, yes.

Any clothing description 9.

The current witness can*t remember that.

Attention all squads.

Attention all squads.

The suspect in the shooting at Him and Houston is reportedly an unknown
white male approximately 30, slender build, about S' 10", weighs 165 lbs.
reportedly armed with what is thought to be a .30 caliber rifle.

Attention all squads. The suspect from Elm and Houston is reported to be an
unknown white male, about 30, slender build, carrying what is thought to
be a 30-30 rifle. No further description at this time or information.


Get 9 to tell whether the man is still supposed to be in the building or has
he left.
It's interesting. The exact same description was broadcast out over the Sheriff's Department radio sometime between 12:49 and 12:53 PM.
 see CD 728 page 9
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11126#relPageId=10&tab=page

67 is identified as Patrolman W.A. Everett. He was also talking to the Sheriff's Department.

Steve Thomas

PS: Off topic and just as an aside, look at pp. 12 and 13 of those Sheriff's transcripts. At the same time they are trying to run down Tippit's shooter in the 1:24 PM time frame, the units are also supposed to be on the lookout for a white Pontiac station wagon with license plates starting with PE also on West Jefferson. The units are advised to "proceed with caution." You see the same thing in the Dallas City's dispatch tapes. I wonder if the police thought the man with a white jacket and black trousers and the white Pontiac were connected?

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