Was Craig Rogered?

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From Roger Craig's WC testimony regarding the sighting of a man leaving the TSBD whom he stated looked liked Oswald.

Was he on the money or was he telling tall stories?



Mr. CRAIG - No; we didn't find anything at that time. Now, as we were searching, we had just got over across the street, when I heard someone whistle.


Mr. BELIN - Now, about how many minutes was this after the time that you had turned that young couple over to Lemmy Lewis that you heard this whistle?


Mr. CRAIG - Fourteen or 15 minutes.


Mr. BELIN - Fourteen or 15 minutes?


Mr. CRAIG - Yes.


Mr. BELIN - Was this, you mean, after the shooting?


Mr. CRAIG - After the---from the time I heard the first shot.


Mr. BELIN - All right. Your heard someone whistle?


Mr. CRAIG - Yes. So I turned and--uh-saw a man start to run down the hill on the north side of Elm Street, running down toward Elm Street.


Mr. BELIN - And, about where was he with relation to the School Book Depository Building?


Mr. CRAIG - Uh--directly across that little side street that runs in front of it, He was on the south side of it.


Mr. BELIN - And he was on the south side of what would be an extension of Elm Street, if Elm Street didn't curve down into the underpass?


Mr. CRAIG - Eight; right,


Mr. BELIN - And where was he with relation to the west side of the School Book Depository Building?


Mr. CRAIG - Right by the--uh--well, actually, directly in line with the west corner--the southwest corner,


Mr. BELIN - He was directly in line with the southwest corner of the building?


Mr. CRAIG - Yes,


Mr. BELIN - And he was on the south curve of that street that runs right in front of the building there?


Mr. CRAIG - Yes,


Mr. BELIN - And he started to run toward Elm Street as it curves under the underpass?


Mr. CRAIG - Yes ; directly down the grassy portion of the park,


Mr. BELIN - All right. And then what did you see happen?


Mr. CRAIG - I saw a light-colored station wagon, driving real slow, coming west on Elm Street from Houston. Uh-- actually, it was nearly in line with him. And the driver was leaning to his right looking up the hill at the man running down.


Mr. BELIN - Uh-huh.


Mr. CRAIG - And the station wagon stopped almost directly across from me. And--uh--the man continued down the hill and got in the station wagon. And I attempted to cross the street. I wanted to talk to both of them. But the---uh--traffic was so heavy I couldn't get across the street. And--uh--they were gone before I could---


Mr. BELIN - Where did the station wagon head? 


Mr. CRAIG - West on Elm Street.


Mr. BELIN - Under the triple underpass? 


Mr. CRAIG - Yes.


Mr. BELIN - Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon?


Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers--


Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light? 


Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.
Mr. BELIN - Anything else about him?


Mr. CRAIG - No; nothing except that he looked like he was in an awful hurry. 


Mr. BELIN - What about the man who was driving the car?


Mr. CRAIG - Now, he struck me, at first, as being a colored male. He was very dark complected, had real dark short hair, and was wearing a thin white-looking Jacket---uh, it looked like the short windbreaker type, you know, because it was real thin and had the collar that came out over the shoulder (indicating with hands) like that--just a short jacket.


Mr. BELIN - You say that he first struck you that way. Do you now think that he was a Negro?


Mr. CRAIG - Well, I don't---I didn't get a real good look at him. But my first glance at him---I was more interested in the man coming down the hill---but my first glance at him, he struck me as a Negro.


Mr. BELIN - Is that what your opinion is today?


Mr. CRAIG - Well, I---I couldn't say, because I didn't get a good enough look.


Mr. BELIN - What kind and what color station wagon was it?


Mr. CRAIG - It was light colored--almost--uh--it looked white to me.


Mr. BELIN - What model or make was it?


Mr. CRAIG - I thought it was a Nash.


Mr. BELIN - Why would you think it was a Nash?


Mr. CRAIG - Because it had a built-in luggage rack on 'the top. And--uh--at the time, this was the only type car I could fit with that type luggage rack.


Mr. BELIN - A Nash Rambler-is that what you're referring to?


Mr. CRAIG - Yes; with a rack on the the back portion of the car, you know. 


Mr. BELIN - Did it have a Texas license plate, or not?


Mr. CRAIG - It had the same color. I couldn't see the--uh--name with the numbers on it. I could just barely make them out. They were at an angle where I couldn't make the numbers of the--uh--any of the writing on it. But---uh---I'm sure it was a Texas plate.


Mr. BELIN - Anything else about this incident that you can recall? 


Mr. CRAIG - No; not that---


Mr. BELIN - All right. Then what did you do?








And this:












Mr. BELIN - All right. Then you went back over to the Dallas Sheriffs Office? 


Mr. CRAIG - Yes.


Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?


Mr. CRAIG - Well, I think I gave a statement to Rosemary Allen over there, as did all the officers, as to what they were doing at the time, you know.


Mr. BELIN - Uh-huh.


Mr. CRAIG - And---uh---then I kept thinking about this man that had run down the hill and got in this car, so--uh--it was about, oh, I don't recall exactly the time, nearly 5 or something like that, or after, when--uh-the city had apprehended a suspect in the city officer's shooting. And--uh--information was floating around that they were trying to connect him with the assassination of the President--as the assassin.
So--uh, in the meantime, I kept thinking about this subject that had run and got in the car. So, I called Captain Fritz' office and talked to one of his officers and--uh--told him what I had saw and give him a description of the man, asked him how it fit the man they had picked up as a suspect.
And--uh--it was then they asked me to come up and look at him at Captain Fritz' office.


Mr. BELIN - All right.
Then what did you do?


Mr. CRAIG - I drove up to Fritz' office about, oh, after 5--about 5:30 or something like that--and--uh--talked to Captain Fritz and told him what I had saw. And he took me in his office---I believe it was his office---it was a little office, and had the suspect setting in a chair behind a desk---beside the desk. And another gentleman, I didn't know him, he was sitting in another chair to my left as I walked in the office.
And Captain Fritz asked me was this the man I saw--and I said, "Yes," it was.


Mr. BELIN - All right.
Will you describe the man you saw in Captain Fritz' office?


Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was sitting down but--uh--he had the same medium brown hair; it was still--well, it was kinda wild looking; he was slender, and--uh-- what 1 could toll of him sitting there, he was--uh---short. By that, I mean not--myself, I'm five eleven--he was shorter than I was. And--uh--fairly light build.


Mr. BELIN - Could you see his trousers?


Mr. CRAIG - No; I couldn't see his trousers at all. 


Mr. BELIN - What about his shirt?


Mr. CRAIG - I believe, as close as I can remember, a T-shirt--a white T-shirt. 


Mr. BELIN - All right. But you didn't see him in a lineup? You just saw him sitting there?


Mr. CRAIG - No; he was sitting there by himself in a chair--off to one side.


Mr. BELIN - All right. Then, what did Captain Fritz say and what did you say and what did the suspect say?


Mr. CRAIG - Captain Fritz then asked him about the---uh---he said, "What about this station wagon?"
And the suspect interrupted him and said, "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine"---I believe is what he said. "Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."
And--uh--Captain Fritz then told him, as close as I can remember, that, "All we're trying to do is find out what happened, and this man saw you leave from the scene."
And the suspect again interrupted Captain Fritz and said, "I told you people I did." And--uh--yeah--then, he said--then he continued and he said, "Everybody will know who I am now."
And he was leaning over the desk. At this time, he had risen partially out of the chair and leaning over the desk, looking directly at Captain Fritz.


Mr. BELIN - What was he wearing-or could you see the color of his trousers as he leaned over the desk?
Mr. CRAIG - No; because he never--he just leaned up, you know, sort of forward--not actually up, just out of his chair like that (indicating) forward.


Mr. BELIN - Then, did you say anything more? 


Mr. CRAIG - No; I then left.


Mr. BELIN - Well, in other words, the only thing you ever said was, "This was the man,"--or words to that effect? 


Mr. CRAIG - Yes.


Mr. BELIN - Did Captain Fritz say anything more.


Mr. CRAIG - No; I don't believe---not while. I was there.


Mr. BELIN - Did the suspect say anything more?


Mr. CRAIG - Not that I recall


Mr. BELIN - Did you say anything about that it was a Rambler station wagon there?


Mr. CRAIG - In the presence of the suspect? 


Mr. BELIN - Yes.


Mr. CRAIG - No.


Mr. BELIN - You don't know whether Captain Fritz said anything to the suspect about this incident before you came, do you?


Mr. CRAIG - No; I don't.


Mr. BELIN - Is there anything else that you can think of involving this interrogation at which you were present?


Mr. CRAIG - No. Nothing else was said after that point. I then left and give 'my name to the---uh---Secret Service agent and the FBI agent that was outside the office.


Mr. BELIN - Anything else in connection with the assassination that you think might be important that we haven't discussed here?


Mr. CRAIG - No; except--uh--except for the fact that it came out later that Mrs. Paine does own a station wagon and--uh--it has a luggage rack on top. And this came out, of course, later, after I got back to the office. I didn't know about this. Buddy Walthers brought it up. I believe they went by the house and the car was parked in the driveway.


Mr. BELIN - Anything else you can think of?


Mr. CRAIG - No. That's all. I forgot about it and went back to work. 


Mr. BELIN - Now, prior to the time we had your deposition taken, we chatted for a few minutes about some of these things--is that correct?


Mr. CRAIG - Yes.


Mr. BELIN - For instance, we talked about your conversation with this young couple this Arnold Rowland and his wife?


Mr. CRAIG - Yes.










Followed by this:








Mr. BELIN - Thank you very much.
One other thing before you go, Mr. Craig. We might have covered this before, but I want to doublecheck it.
When you talked to Mr. Rowland about what he saw in the window, did he say whether or not two men he saw were white or colored?


Mr. CRAIG - Yes; I determined that right away. I asked him whether they were white or colored and he said white.


Mr. BELIN - What else did he tell you about them? Did he tell you how much of them he saw?


Mr. CRAIG - Yes. He said they--uh--walked back and forth in front of the windows there uh--several minutes. You know, not a long time but 3, 4, 5 minutes. He did state that one of them had a rifle with a scope on it.



Mr. BELIN - Did he give you the color of the hair or the complexion or anything like that?


Mr. CRAIG - No--no; this he couldn't give.
Mr. BELIN - Could he give you the type of clothing they were wearing?


Mr. CRAIG - If I recall, he was vague on one he thought it was khakis, but the other man he wasn't sure.


Mr. BELIN - Did he tell you anything else about these people? r. CRAIG - Yes; he said he looked up a few minutes later and--uh--there was only one man up there then.






Mr. BELIN - Did he ever tell you anything about seeing any other people in any other windows?r. CRAIG - Yes; he said there were people in other windows looking over the ledges--you know, leaning up against the outside of the windows, looking out.






Mr. BELIN - Did he tell you whether any of these other people were on the sixth floor?r. CRAIG - No; these two men were the only ones he saw on that particular floor.






Mr. BELIN - Did he tell you that was the sixth floor he saw them on?


Mr. CRAIG - Yes. He said the second to the top floor--the next floor down; which would be the sixth floor.


Mr. BELIN - Did he tell you about ever seeing anyone else on the sixth floor--or did he say that he didn't see anyone else on the sixth floor? Or don't you remember?


Mr. CRAIG - Just the two men. That's all he saw on that particular floor.


Mr. BELIN - Did you specifically ask him if he saw anyone else on that floor, he say that he did not?


Mr. CRAIG - No; I asked him and he said---


Mr. BELIN - Well, what was your statement to him and what was his to you?


Mr. CRAIG - I asked him was there anybody else on the floor with these two men. And he said, "No, just the two of them."


Mr. BELIN - Did he say that he saw these two men together first?


Mr. CRAIG - Yes.


Mr. BELIN - And then he Just saw one, as I understand it?


Mr. CRAIG - A few minutes later, he looked back up there and saw just the man with the rifle.


Mr. BELIN - I believe he said earlier that he saw these men around 15 minutes before the motorcade arrived? And then a few minutes later, you say that he told you he saw only one man?r. CRAIG - Right.






Mr. BELIN - Did he then tell you that he saw no men--or what did he say about what he saw after that?


Mr. CRAIG - Well, then, I took him to Officer Lewis and turned him over to Lemmy Lewis.


Mr. BELIN - Anything else you can think of about that conversation?


Mr. CRAIG - No; there was not--I don't think there was anything else discussed except for the fact that he told me he thought--he said he thought he was a Secret Service agent--and that's why he didn't report it. 


Mr. BELIN - All right.









And finally:












Mr. BELIN - Have you discussed with Sheriff Decker the fact that when Oswald was picked up they found a bus transfer in his pocket?


Mr. CRAIG - No; I knew--uh nothing about a bus transfer.


Mr. BELIN - Do you feel, in your own mind, that the man you saw at Captain Fritz's office was the same man that you saw running towards the station wagon?


Mr. CRAIG - Yes, I feel like it was.


Mr. BELIN - Do you feel that you might have been influenced by the fact that you knew he was the suspect---subconsciously, or do you----



Mr. CRAIG - Well, it's---it's possible, but I still feel strongly that it was the same person.




Mr. BELIN - Okay. That's it. Thank you.












This is what Rowland had to say in his WC tesimony:












Mr. SPECTER - Before you go on, let me ask you at which time was this on your return to position "V"? 


Mr. ROWLAND - This was 12:15. 


Mr. SPECTER - All right; proceed to tell us what you saw and heard at about that time? 


Mr. ROWLAND - We were discussing, as I stated, the different security precautions, I mean it was a very important person who was coming and we were aware of the policemen around everywhere, and especially in positions where they would be able to watch crowds. We talked momentarily of the incidents with Mr. Stevenson, and the one before that with Mr. Johnson, and this being in mind we were more or less security conscious. We looked and at that time I noticed on the sixth floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not hanging out the window.
He was standing and holding a rifle, This appeared to me to be a fairly high-powered rifle because of the scope and the relative proportion of the scope to the rifle, you can tell about what type of rifle it is. You can tell it isn't a .22, you know, and we thought momentarily that maybe we should tell someone but then the thought came to us that it is a security agent.
We had seen in the movies before where they have security men up in windows and places like that with rifles to watch the crowds, and we brushed it aside as that, at that time, and thought nothing else about it until after the event happened. 


Mr. SPECTER - Now, by referring to the photograph on this Commission Exhibit No. 356, will you point to the window where you observed this man? 


Mr. ROWLAND - This was very odd. There were this picture was not taken immediately after that, I don't think, because there were several windows, there are pairs of windows, and there were several pairs where both windows were open fully and in each pair there was one or more persons hanging out the window.
Yet this was on the west corner of the building, the sixth floor, the first floor--second floor down from the top, the first was the arched, the larger windows, not the arch, but the larger windows, and this was the only pair of windows where both windows were completely open and no one was hanging out the windows, or next to the window.
It was this pair of windows here at that time. 


Mr. SPECTER - All right.
Will you mark that pair of windows with a circle?
(Witness marking.)








Mr. SPECTER - What is your best recollection as to how far each of those windows were open? 


Mr. ROWLAND - To the fullest extent that they could be opened. 


Mr. SPECTER - What extent would that be? 


Mr. ROWLAND - Being as I looked half frame windows, that would be halfway of the entire length of the window. 


Mr. SPECTER - Is that the approximate status of those windows depicted here in Exhibit 356? 


Mr. ROWLAND - Yes. 


Mr. SPECTER - In which of those double windows did you see the man and rifle? 


Mr. ROWLAND - It was through the window to my right. 


Mr. SPECTER - Draw an arrow right into that window with the same black pencil please.
(Witness marking.)








Mr. SPECTER - How much, if any, or all of that rifle could you see? 


Mr. ROWLAND - All of it. 


Mr. SPECTER - You could see from the base of the stock down to the tip of the end of the rifle? 


Mr. ROWLAND - Yes. 


Mr. SPECTER - The barrel of the rifle? 


The CHAIRMAN - Congressman Ford, will you excuse me for just a few minutes to run across the street to my office. You conduct during my absence. 


Representative FORD - Will you proceed, Mr. Specter? 


Mr. SPECTER - What is your best estimate of the distance between where you were standing and the man holding the rifle whom you have just described?
(The Chief Justice left the hearing room.)








Mr. ROWLAND - 150 feet approximately, very possibly more. I don't know for sure. 


Mr. SPECTER - Are you very good at judging distances of that sort? 


Mr. ROWLAND - Fairly good. 


Mr. SPECTER - Have you had any experience or practice at judging such distances? 


Mr. ROWLAND - Yes. Even in using the method in physics or, you know, elementary physics of looking at a position in two different views, you can tell its distance. I did that quite frequently. And the best r can recollect it was within 150 to 175 feet. 


Mr. SPECTER - Can you describe the rifle with any more particularity than you already have? 


Mr. ROWLAND - No. In proportion to the scope it appeared to me to be a .30-odd size 6, a deer rifle with a fairly large or powerful scope. 


Mr. SPECTER - When you say, .30-odd-6, exactly what did you mean by that? 


Mr. ROWLAND - That is a rifle that is used quite frequently for deer hunting. It is an import. 
































and:
































Mr. SPECTER - Was the rifle which you observed similar to, or perhaps identical with, .30-odd rifles which you have seen before? 


Mr. ROWLAND - The best I could tell it was of that size. 


Mr. SPECTER - Have you seen such .30-odd rifles before at close range which had telescopic sights? 










Mr. ROWLAND - Yes; one my stepfather has has a very powerful scope on it. 


Mr. SPECTER - And did this rifle appear similar to the one your stepfather owned? 








Mr. ROWLAND - From my distance, I would say very similar or of similar manufacture. 


Mr. SPECTER - In what manner was the rifle being held by the man whom you observed? 


Mr. ROWLAND - The way he was standing it would have been in a position such as port arms in military terms. 


Mr. SPECTER - When you say port arms you have positioned your left hand with the left elbow of your hand being about level with your shoulder and your right hand.-- 


Mr. ROWLAND - Not quite level with my shoulder, and the right hand being lower on the trigger of the stock. 


Mr. SPECTER - So the waist of the imaginary rifle you would be holding would cross your body at about a 45-degree angle. 
Mr. ROWLAND - That is correct. 


Mr. SPECTER - How long was the rifle held in that position? 


Mr. ROWLAND - During the entire time that I saw him there. 


Mr. SPECTER - Did you see him hold it in any other position? 


Mr. ROWLAND - No, I didn't. 


Mr. SPECTER - For example, was he standing at any time in a parade-rest position? 


Mr. ROWLAND - No; not to my knowledge. 


Mr. SPECTER - Describe, as best you can, the appearance of the individual whom you saw? 


Mr. ROWLAND - He was rather slender in proportion to his size. I couldn't tell for sure whether he was tall and maybe, you know heavy, say 200 pounds, but tall whether he would be and slender or whether he was medium and slender, but in proportion to his size his build was slender.

Mr. SPECTER - Could you give us an estimate on his height? 












Mr. ROWLAND - No; I couldn't. That is why I said I can't state what height he would be. He was just slender in build in proportion with his width. This is something I find myself doing all the time, comparing things in perspective. 


Mr. SPECTER - Was he a white man or a Negro or what? 


Mr. ROWLAND - Seemed, well, I can't state definitely from my position because it was more or less not fully light or bright in the room. He appeared to be fair complexioned, not fair, but light complexioned, but dark hair.

Mr. SPECTER - What race was he then? 


Mr. ROWLAND - I would say either a light Latin or a Caucasian. 


Mr. SPECTER - And were you able to observe any characteristics of his hair? 


Mr. ROWLAND - No; except that it was dark, probably black. 


Mr. SPECTER - Were you able to observe whether he had a full head of hair or any characteristic as to quantity of hair? 


Mr. ROWLAND - It didn't appear as if he had a receding hairline but I know he didn't have it hanging on his shoulders. Probably a close cut from--you know it appeared to me it was either well-combed or close cut. 


Mr. SPECTER - What, if anything, did you observe as to the clothes he was wearing? 








Mr. ROWLAND - He had on a light shirt, a very light-colored shirt, white or a light blue or a color such as that. This was open at the collar. I think it was unbuttoned about halfway, and then he had a regular T-shirt, a polo shirt under this, at least this is what it appeared to be. He had on dark slacks or blue jeans, I couldn't tell from that I didn't see but a small portion. 


Mr. SPECTER - You say you only saw a small portion of what? 


Mr. ROWLAND - Of his pants from his waist down. 


Mr. SPECTER - Which half of the window was open, the bottom half or the top half? 


Mr. ROWLAND - It was the bottom half. 


Mr. SPECTER - And how much, if any, of his body was obscured by the window frame from that point down to the floor? 


Mr. ROWLAND - From where I was standing I could see from his head to about 6 inches below his waist, below his belt. 


Mr. SPECTER - Could you see as far as his knees? 


Mr. ROWLAND - No. 


Mr. SPECTER - And what is your best recollection as to how close to the window he was standing? 


Mr. ROWLAND - He wasn't next to the window, but he wasn't very far back. I would say 3 to 5 feet back from the window. 


Mr. SPECTER - How much of the rifle was separated from your line of vision by the window? 


Mr. ROWLAND - The entire rifle was in my view. 


Mr. SPECTER - In the open part of the window? 


Mr. ROWLAND - Yes. 


Mr. SPECTER - And how much of his body, if any, was in the open view where there was no window between your eyes and the object of his body? 


Mr. ROWLAND - Approximately two-thirds of his body just below his waist. 
Mr. SPECTER - Up to what point? 


Mr. ROWLAND - Mid point between the waist and the knees, this is again in my proportion to his height that I make that judgment. 


Mr. SPECTER - So from the waist, some point between his knees and his waist, you started to see hi clear in the window? 


Mr. ROWLAND - Yes. 





Mr. SPECTER - And from that point how far up his body were you able to see without any obstruction of a window between you and him? 












Mr. ROWLAND - To the top of his head. There was some space on top of that where I could see the wall behind him. 


Mr. SPECTER - What is your best estimate of the space between the top of his head and the open window at the perspective you were observing? 


Mr. ROWLAND - Two and a half, three feet, something on that--that is something very hard to ascertain. That would just be an estimation on my part. 


Mr. SPECTER - Is there anything else you observed about his appearance or his clothing or the rifle which you haven't already told us about? 


Representative FORD - Was he facing toward you directly? 


Mr. ROWLAND - Yes. 


Representative FORD - In other words, did you get a full view of his face and his chest and the front of him? 


Mr. ROWLAND - He appeared to me as though he were looking out the window and watching the crowd in particular. 


Representative FORD - Excuse me, go ahead. 


Mr. ROWLAND - That is all right. 


Representative FORD - Was he looking toward the corner of Houston and Main? 


Mr. ROWLAND - No; I would say he was looking in the area or the general vicinity of where I was. 


Representative FORD - And you were on the sidewalk on Houston in front of the building that you have indicated? 


Mr. ROWLAND - Yes. Now, I can't--here again I wasn't close enough to see his eyes but from the position of his head he was looking in that general area. It could have been that maybe he was--his eyes were a little bit off perspective and he was watching that corner, I don't know. 


Representative FORD - In what position did you say his hands were on the rifle? 


Mr. ROWLAND - One hand was at what is called the gun stock of the rifle, just above the trigger, it was around the rifle. The other was at the other end of the rifle about 4 inches below the end of the stock. 
Representative FORD - Was the rifle held above his waist? 


Mr. ROWLAND - The majority of it was, just a small portion of butt below his waist. 


Representative FORD - The butt or the end of the rifle, the barrel end? 


Mr. ROWLAND - The butt, the stock end, was below his waist. The barrel being pointed in the air toward the ceiling or the wall next to him. 


Representative FORD - I see. The stock was down and the barrel was up. 


Mr. ROWLAND - Yes. 


Mr. SPECTER - Were you able to form any opinion as to the age of that man? 


Mr. ROWLAND - This is again just my estimation. He was--I think I remember telling my wife that he appeared in his early thirties. This could be obscured because of the distance, I mean. 


Mr. SPECTER - Were you able to form any opinion as to the weight of the man in addition to the line of proportion which you have already described? 


Mr. ROWLAND - I would say about 140 to 150 pounds. 

































followed by:
































Representative FORD - And as you looked at the window subsequently did you ever see anything else in the window? 


Mr. ROWLAND - No; not in that window, and I looked back every few seconds, 30 seconds, maybe twice a minute, occasionally trying to find him so I could point him out to my wife.
Something I would like to note is that the window that I have been told the shots were actually fired from, I did not see that, there was someone hanging out that window at that time. 


Representative FORD - At what time was that? 


Mr. ROWLAND - At the time I saw the man in the other window, I saw this man hanging out the window first. It was a colored man, I think. 


Representative FORD - Is this the same window where you saw the man standing with the rifle? 


Mr. ROWLAND - No; this was the one on the east end of the building, the one that they said the shots were fired from. 


Representative FORD - I am not clear on this now. The window that you saw the man that you describe was on what end of the building? 


Mr. ROWLAND - The west, southwest corner. 


Representative FORD - And the man you saw hanging out from the window was at what corner? 


Mr. ROWLAND - The east, southeast corner. 


Representative FORD - Southeast corner. On the same floor? 


Mr. ROWLAND - On the same floor. 


Representative FORD - When did you notice him? 


Mr. ROWLAND - This was before I noticed the other man with the rifle. 


Representative FORD - I see. This was before you saw the man in the window with the rifle? 


Mr. ROWLAND - Yes. My wife and I were both looking and making remarks that the people were hanging out the windows I think the majority of them were colored people, some of them were hanging out the windows to their waist, such as this. We made several remarks to this fact, and then she started watching the colored boy, and I continued to look, and then I saw the man with the rifle. 


Representative FORD - After 12:22 or thereabouts you indicated you periodically looked back at the window in the southwest corner where you had seen the man with the rifle What happened as the motorcade came along? 


Mr. ROWLAND - As the motorcade came along, there was quite a bit of excitement. I didn't look back from then. I was very interested in trying to see the President myself. I had seen him twice before but I was interested in seeing him again. 


Representative FORD - Did you notice a sedan come by with any officials in it at the outset of the motorcade? 


Mr. ROWLAND - The first car in the motorcade was, I think it was, a white- or cream-colored Ford. This appeared to be full of detectives or such as this; rather husky men, large men. I think there were four in this car.

Representative FORD - Was this an open or a closed car? 


Mr. ROWLAND - This was a sedan, the doors were closed. 





Representative FORD - What was the next car you noticed? 












Mr. ROWLAND - The next car was the President's car. 


Representative FORD - Did you notice again or did you look again during this period of time at the School Depository Building? 


Mr. ROWLAND - No. From where we were standing the motorcade came down Main, and when it turned on Houston we watched the motorcade, my wife remarked at Jackie's clothing, Mrs. Kennedy, and we made a few remarks of her clothing and how she looked, her appearance in general, and we also discussed--we didn't immediately recognize Governor Connally and his wife being in the car, we were trying to figure out who that as.
Then the motorcade turned on Elm and was obscured from our vision by a crowd, and we were discussing the clothing of Mrs. Kennedy at that time. My wife likes clothes. 


Representative FORD - You never again, after the motorcade once came into your view, looked back at the School Depository Building? 


Mr. ROWLAND - I did after the shots were fired. 


Mr. SPECTER - Had you finished telling us all about the conversation between you and your wife concerning this man? 


Mr. ROWLAND - To the best of my recollection, yes. 


Mr. SPECTER - All right.
You have described seeing someone in another window hanging out. Would you draw a circle and put an "A" beside the window where you say you saw someone hanging out. That is on Exhibit No. 356.
(Witness marking.)








Mr. SPECTER - At about what time was it that you observed someone hanging out of the window that you have marked as window "A"? 


Mr. ROWLAND - Again about 12:15 just before I noticed the other man. 


Mr. SPECTER - You have marked the double window there. Would you draw the arrow in the red pencil indicating specifically which window it was.
(Witness marking.)








Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe with as much particularity as you can what that man looked like? 


Mr. ROWLAND - It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I didn't pay very much attention to him. 


Mr. SPECTER - At or about that time did you observe anyone else hanging out any window or observe any one through any window on the same floor where you have drawn the two circles on Exhibit 356? 


Mr. ROWLAND - No; no one else on that floor. 

Redfern wrote:I find it hard to believe that Craig would have lied about Oswald's words in his Warren testimony. What could he gain by doing so?

All it would have taken was for him to popped his head through the door for ten or fifteen seconds.

The FBI report is very brief. It really concerned only Craig's identification of Oswald leaving Dealey Plaza.

He wouldn't have known who Ruth Paine was at that point.


Roger Craig was the one law enforcement officer prepared to stick his neck out.

These are my thoughts also. The FBI report merely summarises the ID of Oswald. It may have been wise on the part of the FBI to omit any pesky details about what he heard Oswald say. The fact is he said it all during his WC testimony. We can accuse him of lying but if we do we have also ask WTF for. He spent another 4 years in DPD after that.

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

Redfern wrote:I find it hard to believe that Craig would have lied about Oswald's words in his Warren testimony. What could he gain by doing so?

All it would have taken was for him to popped his head through the door for ten or fifteen seconds.

The FBI report is very brief. It really concerned only Craig's identification of Oswald leaving Dealey Plaza.

He wouldn't have known who Ruth Paine was at that point.


Roger Craig was the one law enforcement officer prepared to stick his neck out.

These are my thoughts also. The FBI report merely summarises the ID of Oswald. It may have been wise on the part of the FBI to omit any pesky details about what he heard Oswald say. The fact is he said it all during his WC testimony. We can accuse him of lying but if we do we have also ask WTF for. He spent another 4 years in DPD after that.

Those are the very reasons why I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out I was wrong.

But 17 years at this has taught me to err on the side of caution.  As far as I can tell, he said nothing of Oswald saying anything until his WC testimony. The wording in that first report to me, is also indicative of viewing someone through a window or glass panel rather than up close and personal. "given an opportunity to observe Lee Harvey Oswald" 

As to the WTF for,, Maybe to be helpful to the side he thought was right (the critics)? Or maybe to potentially bring fame and/or fortune?  Oswald was no longer around so it was his word vs Fritz. And Fritz was nothing to Craig. He didn't work under Fritz.

greg parker wrote:Colin, I just noticed the FBI interview was done on Nov 22, but typed up the next day.

The difference between Craig and Baker?

On day one, Craig said in a legal document that he observed Oswald in custody and identified him as identical to the person he had observed in DP.

On day one, Baker's affidavit made no such claim about observing Oswald in custody (even though we know he did), nor correctly described or indeed even named him. Baker didn't even get the putative location right.

Another difference: Craig had multiple witnesses confirm his sighting. Baker only had Truly.

Forgive my stupid memory Greg but can you point to the interview which was done on the 22/11/63

I realise your saying it was typed on the 23rd but to save the leg work can you post it cheers Mick



cheers mate

greg parker wrote:

Cheers mate.

It seems he was at least in Fritz's office.

Mick Purdy wrote:It seems he was at least in Fritz's office.

Mick, the first photo is not Fritz's office and there are those who claim it's also not Craig and not even Friday - that it's a photo taken on Saturday by Jack Beers. The second photo could be anywhere, anytime and again, may not even be Craig.  Also Oswald is standing so maybe being led down the hallway, or in an elevator?  

I know these photos are floated as proof that Craig told the truth... but we need to be careful to verify everything where possible. The extreme example is Cinque's bizarre photographic claims.

Personally, looking at known pics of Craig, there is a definite similarity but not the same person. Half the problem I think is that in 1963, there was little diversity in hair style or clothing and the obesity epidemic was yet to come, making for a far higher proportion of slim men and women - the overall effect of those things was a similarity of look.

As a kid, an uncle we visited offered to cut my hair. He asked me what style I would like. Little did I understand that he was kidding. I asked for a "square cut" and got chastised for trying to be different.

I personally think it's Dick York. 
But that could be my failing eyes.

!00% agree Greg. It looks like him but not the same man imo.

It is an example of certain pics which have made their way into books etc which have been written over the years and published. This particular Photo shows up in "Cover-Up" by Gary Shaw.

I'm certain after reading his FBI statement taken on the 22nd and published on the 23rd is an accurate account of his being in the vicinity of Fritz's office and observing Lee Oswald.

Now that does not mean I agree that he heard the words he later claimed Oswald had said.

Mick Purdy wrote:I personally think it's Dick York. 
But that could be my failing eyes.

!00% agree Greg. It looks like him but not the same man imo.

It is an example of certain pics which have made their way into books etc which have been written over the years and published. This particular Photo shows up in "Cover-Up" by Gary Shaw.

I'm certain after reading his FBI statement taken on the 22nd and published on the 23rd is an accurate account of his being in the vicinity of Fritz's office and observing Lee Oswald.

Now that does not mean I agree that he heard the words he later claimed Oswald had said.

Okay Mick. I think we're on the same page. It's not the interrogation room because there is a female in the photo.

Secretary? Steno? Agnes Moorehead?

Actually that last would explain a lot...

Mick Purdy wrote:It seems he was at least in Fritz's office.

I'm with Greg. I don't think its him. Looks like him though.

Fritz telling us he doesn't remember whom R. Craig is.

The man who came into his "outer" office and informed him that he thought he'd seen the man they had in custody, Oswald leaving the TSBD.

Anyone buying this?

The fact that Fritz even has this version of events down on paper is telling.

That Fritz would remember the story of someone telling him that on Friday afternoon somewhere around 12.45pm they had seen Oswald or someone whom looked exactly like him departing the TSBD is remarkable enough.

But to tell us he let this man tell that story to another officer is unbelievable IMO.

Think about that: 

Fritz is being told the guy in the office is the same guy Craig saw leaving the TSBD.
Really, Fritz is so disinterested in this he sends Craig off to another officer.

This document is taken from several pages which were issued to refute Craigs claims of being in the private office of Fritz when divulging his story.
I have no idea whether Craig was ever present in the "inner" office, whether or not he saw or listened to Oswald in person, but it would appear from the wording in the document by Fritz that there was acknowledgement of Craig seeing Oswald leaving the TSBD.

Cover Up by Gary Shaw with thx to Vinny!

"He left on foot from the building.  Someone said they saw a man pick him up [in a car] but Oswald had a bus transfer slip in his pocket when arrested," Curry said.  AP, 11:17 am CST, Peggy Simpson

Roger Craig's story on the front page of the Ft. Worth Star Telegram Nov 23rd.

Ed. Ledoux wrote:

FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION

Date 11/23/63

1
ROGER CRAIG,observed an individual run down the grass area from the direction of the Texas School Book Depository. He heard this individual whistle and a white Rambler station wagon, driven by a Negro male, pulled over to the curb and said individual got in and the car headed toward the Dallas-Fort Worth Turnpike. he is positive that OSWALD is identical with the same individual he observed getting into the Rambler station wagon as mentioned above.
Cheers! Ed

In case you're interested, I wrote an essay on a possible Rambler lead.
You can find it here, near the top:

http://myjfksite.weebly.com

Steve Thomas

And according to Fritz, after being informed by Craig that the man in his office (Oswald) was identical to the man he had seen earlier, Fritz fogged him off to some other officer to take details.

A little odd.

So the Rambler seen by Roger Craig was driven by a dark skinned man, with black hair.

Castro Baile owned a Rambler, was a dark skinned Cuban, and had black hair. And was member of an anti-Castro Group. Rambler had a "Kill Kennedy the Klan" on the bumper. Reg No PD4976. Coincidence?


http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11481&relPageId=214




Can anybody find a connection between "Oswald" and Castro Baile?

Ray Mitcham wrote:So the Rambler seen by Roger Craig was driven by a dark skinned man, with black hair.

Castro Baile owned a Rambler, was a dark skinned Cuban, and had black hair. And was member of an anti-Castro Group. Rambler had a "Kill Kennedy the Klan" on the bumper. Reg No PD4976. Coincidence?


http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11481&relPageId=214




Can anybody find a connection between "Oswald" and Castro Baile?

Ray,

In case you're interested, I once wrote an essay on a possible Rambler lead.
You can find it here, near the top:

http://myjfksite.weebly.com

A lot of it has to do with Raul Castro Baille and Oswald's connection to the house on Harlandale.
As far as the driver of the Rambler, my money is on Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro.

Steve Thomas

Thanks, Steve. You could well be right.

Craig was wrong about one thing, and that was his ID of himself inside Room 317.



The man Craig IDs as himself is in fact, someone who hang about 317 quite a bit.
It is not, as first presumed Secret Service Agent Charles Kunkel, as accoridng to Vince Palamara, Kunkel was still in Wa..


So we do notk now the name of this person as of yet. But THAT is not Craig.













Against......Craig in Darnell