Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part A

First topic message reminder :

This is full rebuild of the hugely popular thread created by Mick Purdy at the Webs forum in February 2015. – Stan

Mick Purdy

I believe Buell Wesley Frazier lied about seeing Lee Oswald with a package, a package two feet long on the morning of Friday November 22nd 1963.

I believe Linnie Mae Randle lied about seeing Oswald with a package, a package 27 inches long on the Morning of 22nd Nov 1963.

I believe both Linnie Mae Randle and Buell Wesley Frazier fabricated the curtain rod story.

I think there is ample evidence in their WC testimonies, affidavits and FBI interviews to support each of these contentions.

I have also come to the conclusion (after having a closer look at the testimonies and the various reports), that Buell Wesley Frazier lied about another crucially important matter that day. In my opinion the totality of the evidence suggests Frazier lied with regards to driving Lee Harvey Oswald to work that fateful morning.

Take a moment to reflect upon the importance of that drive to the case against Oswald before reading on.

The story was very likely fabricated not merely to have Oswald appear to carry a sack into work – but also to create the illusion of Oswald carrying a rifle. This conclusion is drawn from a study of the WC testimonies of both Randle and Frazier regarding Oswald, the package and his alleged arrival at the Randle residence that morning. Ten or more neighbours considered to be best placed to spot pedestrian movement in the vicinity were interviewed by the FBI as to whether they saw Oswald carrying a package from the Paine’s home to the Randle home. To a person, they stated they had not seen Oswald that morning – with or without any suspicious package which the police on more than one occasion, described as being similar in size and shape to a rifle case.

Frazier’s WC and Shaw trial testimony regarding the journey into work with Oswald appears rehearsed. Any questions relating to the “sack” or what was said in the car on the way in is met with what sounds very much like scripted answers that have become Frazier’s Lore. The sack, the curtain rods, the weather, and my favourite, Oswald’s kids, are IMO all part of the charade. Away from the small talk and banter about kids, he constantly flip flopped on testimony in a manner redolent with patterns of deceit.

Frazier’s WC testimony with regard to his arrival at work is at complete odds with the HSCA interview of Edward Shields. Though it could be argued Shields, unlike Frazier, was not under oath, and therefore is a witness of lesser value, the fact is that Shields was as close as you can get to a disinterested party merely reporting for the first what he had heard. Sadly, it took well over a decade for him to receive any relevant questions. In any event, it is highly unlikely he ever realized the import of his information.
  
From the HSCA interview of Shields
 

SHIELDS: I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...Well, I was down on the floor when they hollered out and said and the answer he gave them, I don't know, I think he said: "I dropped him off at the building." Now, whoever it was hollering asked him, I don't know.
DAY: This is the morning of the assassination?
SHIELDS: Mm-hmm.
DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."
SHIELDS: Yes.
DAY: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?
SHIELDS: No I didn’t.

 
To summarize what we have so far… no one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald walk to the Frazier residence that morning. No one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald in Frazier’s car that morning – except Frazier himself. No one saw Lee Harvey Oswald that morning with any package except Wes and Linnie Mae.

Frazier also testified that he let Oswald get well ahead on the walk from the car park to the loading dock entrance. But in the form of Edward Shields, we have a potential reason for Frazier to construct that story.

In the above two short paragraphs alone, we have three “firsts” – firsts that are needed for the official story to hold. Oswald had never walked to the Randle residence for his lift before. He was always picked up at the Paine house. Oswald had never taken a long package to work before. Oswald had never neglected to take a packed lunch before. Oswald had never even needed a lift on a Friday morning before. Frazier had never let Oswald walk ahead of him from the car park before. They had always walked in together. That is a lot of “firsts” – all reliant on a very tight little knit of witnesses outside of which, no corroboration exists. Nobody else, not one person can verify Frazier’s version of events in Irving except for his sister. At the other end of the journey at the TSBD parking lot, we rely solely on Frazier. It beggars belief that there are no other witnesses. That walk was at least 2 and 1/2 blocks long. Shields and Givens smash his fairy-tale apart.

This “story” IMO has the same stench wafting around it, like the rest of the days fables contain.

The bus trip, the cab ride, the sack, the run, the walk, the ducking, the escape, the 2nd floor, the first floor, the sixth floor, the lunch bag, the rifle case, the back seat, the front seat, the white jacket the grey jacket, the gun, the revolver ……………
 
An alternative scenario

Postal Inspectors interviewed Mr and Mrs CP Schneider at 2707 West Fifth St in the early evening of November 22. Mr Schneider confirmed he had seen Lee Oswald in front of the 2515 residence at approximately 6:00pm of the previous evening. He also stated that a neighbour, Mrs Ed Roberts of 2519 West Fifth St had told him that Willie Randle, 2439 West Fifth St, had driven Oswald to work on the morning of November 22, and that Oswald was carrying a package large enough to have contained a rifle. (CD 296)

What sort of investigation is it that receives hearsay evidence such as the above and fails to follow up to confirm or refute it with the parties involved? WE are indeed, expected to believe that no follow up was done, because there is no evidence any follow up was done. Yet, there is actually circumstantial evidence that the authorities did believe that Randle was the man who gave the lift because that same night, the FBI was attempting to trace the origins of the scope in the names of Lee Oswald OR Willie Randall [sic]. (CD 87) It is virtually impossible to believe that the FBI would act on hearsay alone, when a few houses from where the hearsay was received, lived the person who had passed on that hearsay. You would almost have to believe that this “Willie Randle” lead was followed up and that it checked out given the ease with which such a lead could be checked out. To further complicate matters, the DPD already had Oswald’s alleged driver in custody. If Frazier truly was the driver, there would no reason at all to be checking on “Willy Randle/Randall” as a co-conspirator!

Randle had arrived in Austin at about 7:00pm on what was said to be work-related business in company with co-worker named Berry Caster. (FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 32, p44) It is between a 3 and 4 hour drive from Irving to Austin, so it is far from impossible that “Willie” drove Lee to work that morning on the basis that Frazier had already left.

Because of the holes in the official investigation, some conjecture is needed if we are to try understand the mess we have been left. What follows is some of my conjecture.

Frazier left that morning on his own – with the throwdown M-C rifle. The call from Givens of “where’s your rider?” was code giving Frazier the all clear to bring “the package” in, or was code for simply it’s clear to come inside.

Since Lee had missed his ride, Willie Randle offered to give him one, but needed to borrow Ruth’s car since his own was full of work gear for the trip to Austin later on. This leads to Oswald’s statement in front of Roger Craig concerning Craig’s description of a certain station wagon that "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."

Doesn’t that sound like someone talking about a car that was being driven by someone else?

I’d like to thank Greg Parker for his enormous support and encouragement.

Mick Purdy

In relation to Thursday evening 21/11/63 and whether Linnie Mae spoke with Frazier about why he had brought Lee home with him on the Thursday night:
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee home on this night?
Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.
 
Mrs. RANDLE. What Wesley told me. That Lee had rode home with him to get some curtain rods from Mrs. Paine to fix up his apartment.
Or, is this what Ruth Paine told Linnie Mae to tell Wesley.

Mick Purdy

I think it's timely to have another look at this
 
From the HSCA interview of Shields

SHIELDS: I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...Well, I was down on the floor when they hollered out and said and the answer he gave them, I don't know, I think he said: "I dropped him off at the building." Now, whoever it was hollering asked him, I don't know.
DAY: This is the morning of the assassination?
SHIELDS: Mm-hmm.
DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."
SHIELDS: Yes.
DAY: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?
SHIELDS: No I didn’t.

The WC story goes that Frazier said he parked his car in the normal spot near the rear of the warehouse on Nth Houston and that he allowed Oswald to get approximately 50 feet, but never any further in front of him regards the walk into the rear entrance of the TSBD.
He says he waited behind at the car and let Oswald get ahead of him while he revved his motor to charge the battery.
Now in Shields testimony we have Wesley walking into the building, being stopped for a quick chat as to where his rider is and then immediately proceeding  into the rear entrance of the TSBD building.
Without realising the importance of his information, Shields gives us IMO confirmation that Fazier entered the building on his own, and that Oswald was never with Frazier that morning.
It's bourne out by a simple look at the geography of the supposed walk in and Shields HSCA interview.
If Shields account is accurate and I believe it is, then Given's and Shields would have almost certainly both seen Oswald with Frazier, had he actually been there in the parking lot with him. 
Remember it was Frazier who insisted Oswald never was ahead of him any further than 50 feet (25 steps) and that he never lost sight of him either. He was absolutely adamant  about this, and for good reason.
So if Frazier starts out as he said he did and passed the ware house where Givens and Shields were with Oswald a mere 25 steps ahead of him
in my mind there is no possible way that Shields and Givens missed seeing Oswald. Givens was on the first floor with an overview, IMO it is a 100% certainty that he would have seen Oswald from his position. Instead we have a witness who claims Givens hollered out to Wes "where's your ride.
IMO this alone buries Wes's story

Mick Purdy

And may I say once you  can see that the carpark story is  a complete lie then you need only work backwards, back to the Randle house that morning and deconstruct Randle's and Frazier's version of events. Then the whole mess IMO starts to make sense.

Ed Ledoux


Mr. BALL. Do you recall on a Thursday night, November 21 that you saw Lee get out of Wesley's car?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.
 
Mr. BALL. About what time of night was it?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. About 5:20, I believe, 5:15 or 5:25 something like that.
 
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the grocery store.
 
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee home on this night? *****************
 
Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MR. JENNER -- "Let's proceed with the 21st [of November 1963]. Did anything occur on the 21st with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, that is a Thursday?"
 
MRS. PAINE -- "I arrived home from grocery shopping around 5:30, and he was on the front lawn. I was surprised to see him."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did Randle and Paine shop together or what?

Stan Dane wrote:Paul Francisco Paso

Tony Fratini has done a lot of work on the strip over at Stinky's. Tony is one of the best posters there. Smart as a tack.

Terry Martin

I agree. He seems to be about the only one over there with the ability to think. And one of the view that has intelligent posts.

Stan Dane wrote:Ed Ledoux


Mr. BALL. Do you recall on a Thursday night, November 21 that you saw Lee get out of Wesley's car?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.
 
Mr. BALL. About what time of night was it?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. About 5:20, I believe, 5:15 or 5:25 something like that.
 
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the grocery store.
 
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee home on this night? *****************
 
Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MR. JENNER -- "Let's proceed with the 21st [of November 1963]. Did anything occur on the 21st with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, that is a Thursday?"
 
MRS. PAINE -- "I arrived home from grocery shopping around 5:30, and he was on the front lawn. I was surprised to see him."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did Randle and Paine shop together or what?

Greg Parker

I think we can safely establish that Lee was there Thursday night.
Seen on the Paine lawn about 6 pm...
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=342873
If he was waiting for Ruth to come home, it must have been a crowded car... Ruth, Linnie, Marina and all their kids... otherwise presumambly Marina would have let the poor guy in...
I wouldn't say for certain he was waiting to be let in though... the neighbors in NO all reported he spent a hell of a lot of time sitting on the lawn in his bathers.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Paul Francisco Paso

Tony Fratini has done a lot of work on the strip over at Stinky's. Tony is one of the best posters there. Smart as a tack.

Terry Martin

I agree. He seems to be about the only one over there with the ability to think. And one of the view that has intelligent posts.

Colin Crow

Without being boastful, I would point out that Tony and I have been working as a team at Duncan's for some time. We meet at least once a week over lunch/coffee to discuss various issues. We tend to use each other as a sounding board. While the noise level is high there it is fun to catch the LNers trying to explain the unexplainable on the fly. eg Kevin Rafferty trying to argue that Geneva Hine would knock on a door for 2 minutes. The smarter ones don't try to engage in stuff they know will be a trap. They soon learn not to stray from the WC mantra.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Ed Ledoux


Mr. BALL. Do you recall on a Thursday night, November 21 that you saw Lee get out of Wesley's car?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.
 
Mr. BALL. About what time of night was it?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. About 5:20, I believe, 5:15 or 5:25 something like that.
 
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the grocery store.
 
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee home on this night? *****************
 
Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MR. JENNER -- "Let's proceed with the 21st [of November 1963]. Did anything occur on the 21st with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, that is a Thursday?"
 
MRS. PAINE -- "I arrived home from grocery shopping around 5:30, and he was on the front lawn. I was surprised to see him."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did Randle and Paine shop together or what?

Greg Parker

I think we can safely establish that Lee was there Thursday night.
Seen on the Paine lawn about 6 pm...
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=342873
If he was waiting for Ruth to come home, it must have been a crowded car... Ruth, Linnie, Marina and all their kids... otherwise presumambly Marina would have let the poor guy in...
I wouldn't say for certain he was waiting to be let in though... the neighbors in NO all reported he spent a hell of a lot of time sitting on the lawn in his bathers.

Colin Crow

LMR arrived by car at the Paines on Friday afternoon. Was she going somewhere or coming home? Certainly the distance from her place to Ruth's did not warrant the car. I think we can rule out groceries. Funny how peoples stories tend to morph from one to the other.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Paul Francisco Paso

Tony Fratini has done a lot of work on the strip over at Stinky's. Tony is one of the best posters there. Smart as a tack.

Terry Martin

I agree. He seems to be about the only one over there with the ability to think. And one of the view that has intelligent posts.

Ray Mitcham

I think this comment shows an unfair bias against another forum. There are a number of good posters over there, including Colin, who makes a point above. Just because there are a large number of idiot Nutters doesn't mean that the whole forum is suspect. I post there to combat the stupid posts made by the Warren supporters.

Ed Ledoux

Correct for the Mother to see LHO standing at the window, there is no way LMR see's LHO walk up from a location unknown, he would have 'walked up' already for Mom to see him.
And yes if LHO was in the window it would be hard to miss with LMR two feet away.
 
Said she knew which car door it was...seems by certain car door sounds she figured this out.
 
She could not see through their car through the carport slats through BWF's car to see anything going on outside by BWF's car.Mrs. RANDLE. In the automobile. I do not know if he put it on the seat or on the floor.
Senator COOPER. I mean did you see him throw open the. door?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. When he placed the package in there do you remember whether he used one hand or two?
Mrs. RANDLE. No; because I only opened the door briefly and what made me establish the door on Wesley's car, it is an old car and that door, the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that cinched in my mind which door it was, too. But it was only briefly that I looked
 
Note: Table and chair where Mrs. Essie Mae Williams, Nee: Jones (3429 West Fifth) would likely have been seated facing towards window with the children and BWF. http [:/] /www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=95672&relPageId=148
Essies spouse was David Franklin Williams whom was in the hospital.
 
A funeral service for Linnie Randle, age 79, of Dike, will be conducted at Spence Chapel at First Baptist Church, at 2:00 p.m., Saturday, December 22, 2012, with Rev. Fred Lewis and Rev. Michael Skelton officiating. Interment will follow at Restlawn Memorial Park with Jason Ashford, Josh Ashford, Steven Cooper, Tyler Cooper Michael Skelton and Brandon Skelton serving as pallbearers. Honorary pallbearers will be Ray Skelton, Randy Gyer, B. W. Frazier, Robert Frazier, Erwin Boyle, Cliff Randle, Marvin Randle, Don Randle, Chuck Creed and Charlie Frazier. Visitation will be from 6:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m., Friday, December 21, 2012 at Murray-Orwosky Funeral Home. Linnie Randle passed away Thursday evening, December 20, 2012 at Hopkins County Memorial Hospital. She was born in New Boston on May 30, 1933, the daughter of Elbert E. Frazier and Essie Mae (Jones) Frazier. She married William Edward "Bill" Randle in Huntsville on April 3, 1953; he survives. She was a retired L.V.N. and a member of First Baptist Church. Other survivors include: daughters, Diana Gyer and husband, Randy, of Dike and Patricia Skelton and husband, Ray, of Sulphur Springs; sisters, Dottie Boyle of Sealy, Joyce Gregg and Ester Frazier, both of Highlands; brothers, B. W. Frazier of Lewisville and Charles Frazier of Kingsville; grandchildren, Jason Ashford, Josh Ashford, Steven Cooper, Mike Skelton, Brandon Skelton, Jessica Gyer and Amber Gyer; great-grandchildren, Jacy Ashford, Lexi Cooper, Lainee Ashford, Trinity Ashford, Logyn Ashford, Morgyn Ashford, Tyler Cooper, Mason Cooper and Zali Skelton. She was preceded in death by her parents; daughter, Carolyn Sue Ashford and great-granddaughter, Chloe Ashford.
 
House was in the name of Alfred E. Randle the step-father. 2837 West Shady Grove
 
Mr. BALL. Mrs. Randle, where do you live?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. 2438 Westfield, Irving, Tex. (must have been transcription error 2438 Westfield vs 2439 West Fifth ? Right?......?)
 
and
 
Mr. BALL - What is the address where you live?
 
Mr. FRAZIER - 2439 West Fifth Street.
 
WTH?
 
Was BWF address the living room with a door and walkway fronting Fifth? Or was that Mom's room?
Map shows WESTBROOK Drive and W. 5th or Fifth Street
 
Correct address is 2439 West Fifth St. Irving TX
 
Ruth Paine lived across the street for two years form Linnie Mae when Linne lived down the street on Fifth.
 
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, for a period, I am not sure of this, it is quite 2 years, I lived across the street from her. I didn't visit with her, but I visited with her neighbor who lives next door.
 
Mr. BALL. What is her name?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. Mrs. Dorothy Roberts.
 
Mr. BALL. That was before you moved down the street to the corner of Westfield and Fifth Street?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.
 
This Westfield street is confirmed....WTH? Come on people!
 
The past thread on these individuals, and the William, Willie, Bill Randle, Randall identifications.
http [:/] /reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t24p30-buell-wesley-frazier-linnie-mae-and-bill-randle
 
http [:/] /www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10697&relPageId=6
Via Odum and McNeely whom talked to Mr and Mrs CP Schneider, Mrs Mary Ponder, Mr and Mrs Victor Embry, Mrs James Goodwin, Mr and Mrs James Williams, and Mr and Mrs Ed Roberts.,
Willie Randle was know to neighbor Mr. C P Schneider 2707 West Fifth St, whom was told by Ed Roberts of 2519 West Fifth St. that Willie Randle gave Oswald a ride that morning 11/22.
 
Greg Parker has said before "Randle had left that morning bound for Austin with a fellow employee of his brother's firm named Berry Castor. Maybe Roberts mistook Castor for Oswald?"
 
If they had searched for William Randle vs Willie Randall would they have found something?
http [:/] /www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1331.pdf
Like Dave's House Of Guns, 2544 Elm. where the optics and perhaps a MC rifle could come together? Retting thinks Klein's would be more logical for LHO to do business...? WTH? Kleins doesn't put that scope on that model MC rifle, is by mail order + shipping and the place down on Elm would be such a trouble to get a rifle from under a fake name.... oy vey, Willie Randall is up there with Darryl Click why not use those as an alias? []
 
http [:/] /www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=691889
Shows Retting and DAVE'S HOUSE OF GUNS as major weapon import companies.
 
Anyways,
Randle, William Edward 1-20-1934 M, Adena Gebert mother, Alfred Earnest Randle father.
 
WC has him as William Evert Randle CE 1331; CD 87 SS 176, p. 1 thanks to FBI's bad reporting.

 
Ed and Dorothy Roberts 2519 W 5th St Irving Tx Phone # BL 3-2766 (Hey C 2766 is the rifles number C is the third letter :-) Okay stop that!)
Hosty talked to them because the Dallas directory did not cover Irving and it was very difficult to determine whom lived at a given address, so Hosty makes a bee line for Ed and Dorothy, the neighborhood spys or The Eyes and Ears of Irving...to find out about the address at 2515 West Fifth St.?
Dorothy gives Hosty a complete run down on the Paines, and says Ruth gets a neighborhood seal of approval. And Hosty tells us 2511 West Fifth St. was vacant.
 
Bill Simmons Piano Player for the Carousel Club lived at 2530 West Fifth St. Irving Tx (Dorothy would know William F. Simmons, a piano player at the Carousel Club, lived at 2539 West Fifth Street, in Irving Texas)
 
Kenneth D Reynolds 2514 West Fifth St. Irving Tx traded for the property from Ina Faye, J W Hallmarks wife, in 1959 for house on Grove st..
 
I searched for INA FAYE,
 
Randy was born on June 3, 1955 in Dallas, Texas to J. W. Hallmark and Ina Faye Scruggs. He attended school in Irving, Texas and served in the United States Army during the Vietnam era. He worked for A. D. R. and Xerox as a production assistant, was a tow truck driver and auto mechanic. He moved to Johnston County in the early 1990’s.
 
He was preceded in death by his mother, Ina Faye and other relatives.
 
Randy is survived by two daughters, Halina York & her husband Matt of Coffeyville, Kansas, Crystal Hodges & her husband Peter of Oklahoma City; his son, Josh Hallmark & his wife Sabrina of Ravia; his grandchildren, A. J., Aaron, Joshua, Lehany, Peter, Jr., Cheatham, Kendra, Jacob, Jayden and Joe; his sister, Terry Hallmark of Colleyville, Texas; the mother of his children, Victoria Lynn of Dickson, Oklahoma; his father, J. W. Hallmark of Ravia; numerous other relatives and friends. http [:/] /www.clarkfuneralservice.net/memsol.cgi?user_id=300979
 
And then I found Ina Faye, she lived most of her life in Irving Tx
http [:/] /www.clarkfuneralservice.net/memsol.cgi?user_id=256419
 
J W Hallmark currently lives in Ravia OK with an unpublished number.
JW is President of the Old Settlers there.
J W is the Brother in Law of Mr Clifton Shasteen.
Clifton saw LHO drive in a station wagon like Mrs. Paines to his barber shop.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Paul Francisco Paso

Tony Fratini has done a lot of work on the strip over at Stinky's. Tony is one of the best posters there. Smart as a tack.

Terry Martin

I agree. He seems to be about the only one over there with the ability to think. And one of the view that has intelligent posts.

Ray Mitcham

I think this comment shows an unfair bias against another forum. There are a number of good posters over there, including Colin, who makes a point above. Just because there are a large number of idiot Nutters doesn't mean that the whole forum is suspect. I post there to combat the stupid posts made by the Warren supporters.

Bart Kamp

Combatting LN zealots is futile, like trying to talk to Jehovas Witnesses to put some common sense in their brain. These people are a complete waste of time.....I could yack about this for hrs but then again that would be even more of a waste of time.
No disrespect intended.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Paul Francisco Paso

Tony Fratini has done a lot of work on the strip over at Stinky's. Tony is one of the best posters there. Smart as a tack.

Terry Martin

I agree. He seems to be about the only one over there with the ability to think. And one of the view that has intelligent posts.

Ray Mitcham

I think this comment shows an unfair bias against another forum. There are a number of good posters over there, including Colin, who makes a point above. Just because there are a large number of idiot Nutters doesn't mean that the whole forum is suspect. I post there to combat the stupid posts made by the Warren supporters.

Terry Martin

Touché, Ray. It was a cheap shot as there are - as you say - many over there who are not LN or brain-dead. You and Colin are among the brighter lights but I find the glimmers too far and hard to find.
 
After reviewing everything on the forum for the past year I have seen quite a number of souls trying to battle against the dark forces of stupidity, so to say Tony was the only one was oversimplification and very lame. But with over 1,450 threads over there in the past year, finding the really good material was extremely difficult. I would think I could safely say 50% of the postings there are nothing more than as hominem attacks by a small number of people. It is tedious and depressing to read through even knowing there has to be something good to find.
 
Some of the better threads I found:
 

Oswald Not On 6th Floor, started by Miles Scull - a marvelous sample of how I think forums are supposed to work. Nice collaboration of Miles, Tony, Colin, and George in comparing testimonies and building a scenario... until Bill Brown comes in to disrupt the work... of course, he only came on board because the Caprio came in first. This was one of the most active threads during the year.
 
Jeraldine Reid and her "recollections" - fact or fiction?, started by Tony Fratini - They get to p.10 before the conversation bogs down with doubt. This leads to the realization of an erroneous ID, then back to look for the real Jeraldean... amazing that it goes so far without the LNs attacking!!
 
The evolution of CE 142 - what the flap?, started by Tony Fratini - another fascinating presentation by Tony Fratini & company; Tom Scully complains about Walt Cakebread posting too danged much
 
So, yeah, there is definitely some good stuff over there and many hearty souls battling the likes of Bob Mady, David Von Pein, Craig Lamson, John Mytton, Richard Smith, Bill Brown, and Duncan himself. Not to mention having to work ones way through the weeds sprouting everywhere thanks to serial posters Rob Caprio and Walt Cakebread.
 
Out of the Kennedy forums out there, it is the most prolific (probably thanks to Caprio) and has the most members but it is the sheer mass of negativity and back-biting that makes it extremely difficult to plow through in search of any hidden treasures.
 
So, yeah, it shows a bias. And, yes, it is mine. I'll take the blame for it.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Paul Francisco Paso

Tony Fratini has done a lot of work on the strip over at Stinky's. Tony is one of the best posters there. Smart as a tack.

Terry Martin

I agree. He seems to be about the only one over there with the ability to think. And one of the view that has intelligent posts.

Colin Crow

Without being boastful, I would point out that Tony and I have been working as a team at Duncan's for some time. We meet at least once a week over lunch/coffee to discuss various issues. We tend to use each other as a sounding board. While the noise level is high there it is fun to catch the LNers trying to explain the unexplainable on the fly. eg Kevin Rafferty trying to argue that Geneva Hine would knock on a door for 2 minutes. The smarter ones don't try to engage in stuff they know will be a trap. They soon learn not to stray from the WC mantra.

Terry Martin

Colin,
 
I was going to respond to this one... but then I saw Ray's and decided to respond to his first.
 
Yes, I did recall in many of the threads Tony did such good work in that you were often his sounding board. So, kudos to you and my apology for the oversight. As I replied to Ray, yes, there are quite a few other stalwarts doing decent work over at Stinky's - more than the few I mentioned - but it is too damned difficult to find amid the piles of rubbish heaped up by others over there.
 
Why not get everyone serious about this thing over here and share their work with others of like mind? The posters over here would be more than happy to pick apart a theory and point at the holes and weak points. AND without the personal attacks.
 
Just a thought. It may not be good to put all our eggs in one basket but the poster could post the same on both... I've seen a lot of that elsewhere, so why not. It would certainly make all the good research being done easier to find.

Colin Crow

To Paul and Terry,
no problem. I must admit I too find Duncan's forum frustrating at times. Most threads I don't even bother to read anymore. I do find some satisfaction in the threads that Tony and I have been involved in however. I have tried to get Tony here, a year ago or so he had decided to abandon posting altogether and I did recommend this forum as "the place to be". He did return to Duncan's and I'll keep working on him to join us here. Slowly but surely the official story falls apart and the task we are all faced with is putting the likely pieces together.

Stan Dane wrote:Colin Crow

To Paul and Terry,
no problem. I must admit I too find Duncan's forum frustrating at times. Most threads I don't even bother to read anymore. I do find some satisfaction in the threads that Tony and I have been involved in however. I have tried to get Tony here, a year ago or so he had decided to abandon posting altogether and I did recommend this forum as "the place to be". He did return to Duncan's and I'll keep working on him to join us here. Slowly but surely the official story falls apart and the task we are all faced with is putting the likely pieces together.

Paul Francisco Paso

Colin, I don't think Terry or myself meant to disparage either yourself or Ray with our comments. It is Stinky's overall shambolic forum we are having a go at. I've spent quite a bit of time there as you know but the final straw for me was the obvious bias shown towards the LN's by McRae. He allowed a cunt like Todd Stark to publish a list of members who he alone deemed Oswald apologists and attempted to shame them. Tony was on that list and took offence like many others and that is why he abandoned posting altogether. The last time I was there my posts were removed for using the word "bum" and "jerk". Bill the dickhead Brown was at the time talking about standards. Standards that only apply to CT's it seems. I have never seen that prick ever complain about a LN and the same can be said about Stinky McRae.
It would be good to get Tony over here but it is his choice ultimately. I understand the appeal of Stinky's audience numbers but so do the LN's. That is why they hang around there. 

P.S Sorry to derail this thread, Mick.

Greg Parker

     House was in the name of Alfred E. Randle the step-father. 2837 West Shady Grove

Correction, Ed. Linnie Mae's father-in-law.

Well done StAN!

I do hope Frazier will open up soon. Especially regarding Prayer Man.

Stan Dane wrote:Ed Ledoux

Correct for the Mother to see LHO standing at the window, there is no way LMR see's LHO walk up from a location unknown, he would have 'walked up' already for Mom to see him.
And yes if LHO was in the window it would be hard to miss with LMR two feet away.
 
Said she knew which car door it was...seems by certain car door sounds she figured this out.
 
She could not see through their car through the carport slats through BWF's car to see anything going on outside by BWF's car.Mrs. RANDLE. In the automobile. I do not know if he put it on the seat or on the floor.
Senator COOPER. I mean did you see him throw open the. door?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. When he placed the package in there do you remember whether he used one hand or two?
Mrs. RANDLE. No; because I only opened the door briefly and what made me establish the door on Wesley's car, it is an old car and that door, the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that cinched in my mind which door it was, too. But it was only briefly that I looked
 
Note: Table and chair where Mrs. Essie Mae Williams, Nee: Jones (3429 West Fifth) would likely have been seated facing towards window with the children and BWF. http [:/] /www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=95672&relPageId=148
Essies spouse was David Franklin Williams whom was in the hospital.
 
A funeral service for Linnie Randle, age 79, of Dike, will be conducted at Spence Chapel at First Baptist Church, at 2:00 p.m., Saturday, December 22, 2012, with Rev. Fred Lewis and Rev. Michael Skelton officiating. Interment will follow at Restlawn Memorial Park with Jason Ashford, Josh Ashford, Steven Cooper, Tyler Cooper Michael Skelton and Brandon Skelton serving as pallbearers. Honorary pallbearers will be Ray Skelton, Randy Gyer, B. W. Frazier, Robert Frazier, Erwin Boyle, Cliff Randle, Marvin Randle, Don Randle, Chuck Creed and Charlie Frazier. Visitation will be from 6:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m., Friday, December 21, 2012 at Murray-Orwosky Funeral Home. Linnie Randle passed away Thursday evening, December 20, 2012 at Hopkins County Memorial Hospital. She was born in New Boston on May 30, 1933, the daughter of Elbert E. Frazier and Essie Mae (Jones) Frazier. She married William Edward "Bill" Randle in Huntsville on April 3, 1953; he survives. She was a retired L.V.N. and a member of First Baptist Church. Other survivors include: daughters, Diana Gyer and husband, Randy, of Dike and Patricia Skelton and husband, Ray, of Sulphur Springs; sisters, Dottie Boyle of Sealy, Joyce Gregg and Ester Frazier, both of Highlands; brothers, B. W. Frazier of Lewisville and Charles Frazier of Kingsville; grandchildren, Jason Ashford, Josh Ashford, Steven Cooper, Mike Skelton, Brandon Skelton, Jessica Gyer and Amber Gyer; great-grandchildren, Jacy Ashford, Lexi Cooper, Lainee Ashford, Trinity Ashford, Logyn Ashford, Morgyn Ashford, Tyler Cooper, Mason Cooper and Zali Skelton. She was preceded in death by her parents; daughter, Carolyn Sue Ashford and great-granddaughter, Chloe Ashford.
 
House was in the name of Alfred E. Randle the step-father. 2837 West Shady Grove
 
Mr. BALL. Mrs. Randle, where do you live?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. 2438 Westfield, Irving, Tex. (must have been transcription error 2438 Westfield vs 2439 West Fifth ? Right?......?)
 
and
 
Mr. BALL - What is the address where you live?
 
Mr. FRAZIER - 2439 West Fifth Street.
 
WTH?
 
Was BWF address the living room with a door and walkway fronting Fifth? Or was that Mom's room?
Map shows WESTBROOK Drive and W. 5th or Fifth Street
 
Correct address is 2439 West Fifth St. Irving TX
 
Ruth Paine lived across the street for two years form Linnie Mae when Linne lived down the street on Fifth.
 
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, for a period, I am not sure of this, it is quite 2 years, I lived across the street from her. I didn't visit with her, but I visited with her neighbor who lives next door.
 
Mr. BALL. What is her name?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. Mrs. Dorothy Roberts.
 
Mr. BALL. That was before you moved down the street to the corner of Westfield and Fifth Street?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.
 
This Westfield street is confirmed....WTH? Come on people!
 
The past thread on these individuals, and the William, Willie, Bill Randle, Randall identifications.
http [:/] /reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t24p30-buell-wesley-frazier-linnie-mae-and-bill-randle
 
http [:/] /www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10697&relPageId=6
Via Odum and McNeely whom talked to Mr and Mrs CP Schneider, Mrs Mary Ponder, Mr and Mrs Victor Embry, Mrs James Goodwin, Mr and Mrs James Williams, and Mr and Mrs Ed Roberts.,
Willie Randle was know to neighbor Mr. C P Schneider 2707 West Fifth St, whom was told by Ed Roberts of 2519 West Fifth St. that Willie Randle gave Oswald a ride that morning 11/22.
 
Greg Parker has said before "Randle had left that morning bound for Austin with a fellow employee of his brother's firm named Berry Castor. Maybe Roberts mistook Castor for Oswald?"
 
If they had searched for William Randle vs Willie Randall would they have found something?
http [:/] /www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1331.pdf
Like Dave's House Of Guns, 2544 Elm. where the optics and perhaps a MC rifle could come together? Retting thinks Klein's would be more logical for LHO to do business...? WTH? Kleins doesn't put that scope on that model MC rifle, is by mail order + shipping and the place down on Elm would be such a trouble to get a rifle from under a fake name.... oy vey, Willie Randall is up there with Darryl Click why not use those as an alias? []
 
http [:/] /www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=691889
Shows Retting and DAVE'S HOUSE OF GUNS as major weapon import companies.
 
Anyways,
Randle, William Edward 1-20-1934 M, Adena Gebert mother, Alfred Earnest Randle father.
 
WC has him as William Evert Randle CE 1331; CD 87 SS 176, p. 1 thanks to FBI's bad reporting.

 
Ed and Dorothy Roberts 2519 W 5th St Irving Tx Phone # BL 3-2766 (Hey C 2766 is the rifles number C is the third letter :-) Okay stop that!)
Hosty talked to them because the Dallas directory did not cover Irving and it was very difficult to determine whom lived at a given address, so Hosty makes a bee line for Ed and Dorothy, the neighborhood spys or The Eyes and Ears of Irving...to find out about the address at 2515 West Fifth St.?
Dorothy gives Hosty a complete run down on the Paines, and says Ruth gets a neighborhood seal of approval. And Hosty tells us 2511 West Fifth St. was vacant.
 
Bill Simmons Piano Player for the Carousel Club lived at 2530 West Fifth St. Irving Tx (Dorothy would know William F. Simmons, a piano player at the Carousel Club, lived at 2539 West Fifth Street, in Irving Texas)
 
Kenneth D Reynolds 2514 West Fifth St. Irving Tx traded for the property from Ina Faye, J W Hallmarks wife, in 1959 for house on Grove st..
 
I searched for INA FAYE,
 
Randy was born on June 3, 1955 in Dallas, Texas to J. W. Hallmark and Ina Faye Scruggs. He attended school in Irving, Texas and served in the United States Army during the Vietnam era. He worked for A. D. R. and Xerox as a production assistant, was a tow truck driver and auto mechanic. He moved to Johnston County in the early 1990’s.
 
He was preceded in death by his mother, Ina Faye and other relatives.
 
Randy is survived by two daughters, Halina York & her husband Matt of Coffeyville, Kansas, Crystal Hodges & her husband Peter of Oklahoma City; his son, Josh Hallmark & his wife Sabrina of Ravia; his grandchildren, A. J., Aaron, Joshua, Lehany, Peter, Jr., Cheatham, Kendra, Jacob, Jayden and Joe; his sister, Terry Hallmark of Colleyville, Texas; the mother of his children, Victoria Lynn of Dickson, Oklahoma; his father, J. W. Hallmark of Ravia; numerous other relatives and friends. http [:/] /www.clarkfuneralservice.net/memsol.cgi?user_id=300979
 
And then I found Ina Faye, she lived most of her life in Irving Tx
http [:/] /www.clarkfuneralservice.net/memsol.cgi?user_id=256419
 
J W Hallmark currently lives in Ravia OK with an unpublished number.
JW is President of the Old Settlers there.
J W is the Brother in Law of Mr Clifton Shasteen.
Clifton saw LHO drive in a station wagon like Mrs. Paines to his barber shop.

Mick Purdy

Ed,


thanks so much for this post and the info

What I wouldn't give to know exactly where Bill Randle was around 7-9am that morning

I think too, its very strange how each one of the coffee club girls from the Irving viper's nest tried oh so hard in their various interviews to down play the frequency of their sordid little gatherings.

Cheers Ed, and absolutely love the Dallas Transit Transfer thread.

Stan Dane wrote:Colin Crow

The supposed "conversations" about the package between Oswald and Frazier appear bogus to me. So too the LMR questioning of her brother on the Thursday night about Oswald etc.
i believe Frazier heard of Oswald some time on his way to Irving or after he just arrived. Crapped his pants immediately and sought advice from his older sister. She likely told him to visit Randle in hospital. This bought some time for the story to evolved about a "package" containing curtain rods that would hopefully put Buell in the clear. I do not believe LMR saw any package that mornings. Her arrival, by car, at the Paines' to talk to the cops was done to help get her brother off any hook he might be in.
At that time, a long bag became an item of interest. Perhaps one that was constructed inside the TSBD to transport the. 36” wooden sill strip from the SN would suffice.

Mick Purdy

Thanks for this Colin,

I really believe that meeting of the three at the Paine house, with Ruth, Linnie, and Dorothy at or around 3.00pm followed shortly afterward by Michael, is for me the "ground zero' of the bag/curtain rod story.

Greg Parker

I said in that thread Ed pointed to at the old forum that Willie had left that morning for Austin. Not sure whether that was in one of the documents or whether I just made an assumption based on I have no idea what. But either way, I am not aware of any evidence he left that morning. The only evidence I know of states that he arrived at his motel in Austin at 7pm. It is nowhere near an 11 or 12 hour drive so there is no known fact which would prohibit him as being LHO's chauffeur that morning - or lunchtime for that matter.

It is the Schneider lead and the inactions and actions which followed it, that convinces me Willie driving Ruth's car to take LHO to work has merit.  Especially when you add that to the lack of witnesses and inconsistent testimony of Wes and Linnie regarding the official version.

Mick Purdy

And this:

Mr. BALL - This night, this evening, do you remember you did talk to her about the fact that Oswald had come home with you?
Mr. FRAZIER - 1 believe I did.
Mr. BALL - Did you tell her what he had told you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. I believe she said why did he come home now and I said, well, he says he was going to get some curtain rods.

And Randle:

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee home on this night?
Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.

Stan Dane wrote:Greg Parker

I said in that thread Ed pointed to at the old forum that Willie had left that morning for Austin. Not sure whether that was in one of the documents or whether I just made an assumption based on I have no idea what. But either way, I am not aware of any evidence he left that morning. The only evidence I know of states that he arrived at his motel in Austin at 7pm. It is nowhere near an 11 or 12 hour drive so there is no known fact which would prohibit him as being LHO's chauffeur that morning - or lunchtime for that matter.

It is the Schneider lead and the inactions and actions which followed it, that convinces me Willie driving Ruth's car to take LHO to work has merit.  Especially when you add that to the lack of witnesses and inconsistent testimony of Wes and Linnie regarding the official version.

Mick Purdy

Greg, this from the old forum:

Greg parker: 2009 Post

WILLIAM ("BILL") EDWARD RANDLE

Business in Austin
Neither Linnie Mae nor Buell Frazier were asked during testimony if Bill Randle was home on the morning of Friday, November 22, 1963. His only recorded whereabouts on that day is at the Austin Motel in Austin. And only then because of a tip to the FBI from the motel manager.

Mrs John O Thompson phoned the Austin FBI office on November 23 to inform them that Randle had arrived at about 7:00pm the previous day with a man named Berry J Caster driving a Chevy pick up. The report goes on to say, "they both claimed to be employees of the Irving Counter Top Company", and that he had a "personal acquaintanceship" with Oswald, the extent of which was not discussed.

According to Mrs Thompson, Randle said his wife worked at the same building as Oswald, and also told her of rumors that had circulated in Dallas that Kennedy would be shot when he came "on account of the Veteran's Administration Offices being moved out of Dallas".

At about 7:30pm, Randle attempted to contact Marvin Randle in Irving, but was unsuccessful, though he did get through in a later attempt, learning that his wife had been called in for questioning concerning the assassination. On receiving this news, he checked out of the motel and caught a flight back to Dallas at 11:05pm. Caster checked out at 7:00am the following morning and drove the Chevy back to Irving.[16]

This report was not followed up until January 21 when Randle was interviewed by Special Agent Warren de Brueys. Randle advised that the trip to Austin was in connection with his employment for Irving Counter Top, that the business was owned by his brother, Marvin, and it was purely a business matter that had prompted his call to his brother. He denied any knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald, had never even seen him except in newspapers after the assassination, and said he could not recall making any statement that Kennedy would be killed because of the Veteran's Offices being moved out of the city.[17] Notably absent in the report is what time he left Irving that day (it is about a 3 hour drive, so the latest he could have left to arrive at 7:00pm is about 4:00pm); what time he arrived home after his flight; and whether Berry Caster was related to Warren Caster who had been displaying rifles in the TSBD two days before the assassination.

Mick Purdy

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=342873
According to CE1799, the postal inspectors, including in particular Harry Holmes, interviewed a Mr. and Mrs. C. P. Schneider of Irving, Texas, in the neighborhood of the Paines and Randles, on November 22, 1963, at 6pm. They said that Mrs. Ed Roberts, i.e. Dorothy Roberts, told them that "Willie Randle" had driven Oswald to work that morning. She apparently didn't know that it was Wesley Frazier who drove Oswald to work that morning.

Terry Martin

"Dorothy Roberts, told them that "Willie Randle" had driven Oswald to work that morning. She apparently didn't know that it was Wesley Frazier who drove Oswald to work that morning."

Bingo, Greg! Seems you must've remembered this from somewhere. She "didn't know" it was Frazier... duh!