Once again Josephs has nothing concrete

David Josephs wrote:Basic flaw?

Simply question then Tracy...

What occurred at that gravesite between 1963 and the exhumation?

You can start the chronology in Jan 1964...  Show us how, despite there having been a vault of concrete poured as if usual practice, this casket didn't last but a few years.

Alex Hoyt, Family Service Manager, Funeral Director

Answered Nov 21 2015
Most all (I'd say 99% of) cemeteries require a concrete vault which is set into the grave first. The casket is then lowered into the vault and a heavy lid is placed on top.  The vaults are made of varying quality and interior linings. Any vault above a grave liner (the most basic)  has a tongue-in-groove type lid - inside which has a thick epoxy-like substance that seals the lid in place.
That being said, a casket placed in a vault in dry conditions could easily last a century without noticeable wear. Many factors come into play - wood caskets will eventually rot, metal caskets will eventually rust.

From the DMN story on the exhumation by Earl Golz dated Oct 5, 1981



Open vault or not, the corpse was in the state it was expected to be in.

Or should we add Golz to the list of plotters?

Texas is known for its expansive soils. This means when the soil gets wet it expands at the molecular level and can apply great force to things it is expanding against, like concrete. It's easy to imagine that after rain events there was a heaving soil pressure under the vault trying to force everything up. If the vault bottom were strong enough it could lift the whole stack of components (casket, sides of vault, lid of vault, and fill dirt above the vault) upward. If not (very likely) then the bottom of the vault would break, most probably in a more or less circular pattern in the middle of the bottom of the vault unless there was some form of inconsistency in it's composition that would make it crack differently.

Afterward, the soil would dry, contract, and the pressure would subside until the next rain event. It should be noted that this does not necessarily involve high volumes of water inside the vault. Small amounts of liquid water could be all that actually entered the vault, which the evidence on the pine casket shows it did. The water table would never need to rise to the elevation of the vault for the rain, water percolation, expansion of the soil, breakage of the vault, small amounts of liquid to temporarily seep into the vault, and then the subsequent drying out and soil contraction.

No one messed with the body. H&L is BS.

Jake Sykes wrote:Texas is known for its expansive soils. This means when the soil gets wet it expands at the molecular level and can apply great force to things it is expanding against, like concrete. It's easy to imagine that after rain events there was a heaving soil pressure under the vault trying to force everything up. If the vault bottom were strong enough it could lift the whole stack of components (casket, sides of vault, lid of vault, and fill dirt above the vault) upward. If not (very likely) then the bottom of the vault would break, most probably in a more or less circular pattern in the middle of the bottom of the vault unless there was some form of inconsistency in it's composition that would make it crack differently.

Afterward, the soil would dry, contract, and the pressure would subside until the next rain event. It should be noted that this does not necessarily involve high volumes of water inside the vault. Small amounts of liquid water could be all that actually entered the vault, which the evidence on the pine casket shows it did. The water table would never need to rise to the elevation of the vault for the rain, water percolation, expansion of the soil, breakage of the vault, small amounts of liquid to temporarily seep into the vault, and then the subsequent drying out and soil contraction.

No one messed with the body. H&L is BS.

I don't know much about Texas specifically, but I think Jake is correct. Water in the soil can produce hydrostatic pressure that can move things and cause cracks.  
 
Many of the homes in the community where I lived growing up in Michigan had problems with leaky basements. Cracks in the concrete developed within the first 5-10 years and moisture would leak in. We seemed to fare pretty well (while I lived there anyway), but the neighbors on each side of us had real issues with leakage. These homes were properly built so I think it was hydrostatic pressure due to the relatively high water tables of the area that resulted in this intrusion.
 
It's not a stretch to imagine periodic moisture intrusion into a vault if there is sufficient hydrostatic pressure, moisture that would accelerate decaying process, especially if the vault was a cheap one (I'd bet Oswald was buried on the cheap).

FWIW.

Stan, everything you say about hydrostatic pressure is true, but it's a different kind of pressure. It happens when water "piles up" or ponds behind something like a foundation wall. The considerable weight of the water can blow out or crack a foundation wall. When this happens the soil has been saturated.

By contrast, expansive soil is soil that has an ionic charge that makes it want to form a chemical bond with the water molecules. The electrical charges involved end up making the water bonded molecules repel one another, actually increasing the volume of the soil while it is in this unsaturated state. This is a very powerful force, like freezing water is a powerful force, and is an electro/chemical change. If the amount of water increases to the point where saturation occurs, then the bonding is neutralized, the soil particles return to their normal state or size, and it ends up like water that the dirt wants to settle down into. This is known as soil liquefaction. That's when the hydrostatic pressure starts and with soils you get mud slides, unless there is a foundation wall in the way. Then you get cracks in the foundation.

This all not to say the water table did not rise to the level of the vault and hydrostatic pressure could not have happened, it's to say that much water was not required for the expansive soils that Texas is somewhat famous for to have taken its toll without water saturation.

What's with all this sciency stuff? Water doesn't crack concrete, bad guys do!

greg parker wrote:What's with all this sciency stuff? Water doesn't crack concrete, bad guys do!

Yep, they was a-stickin' their heads up through the bottom of that broken vault and a-swappin' heads from inside the casket! Bad hombres those bad guys. Muy malo. Pero estupido. (That's a Laugh-in reference there at the end).

Guys, i think we are lacking some empathy here. Let's look at it from their point of view. Let's pretend to be thick.

We know that CIA are capable of anything we can imagine.
We know the the Mafia were involved in the construction business.
Therefore CIA TSD and the Mafia produced a secret slow cure batch of concrete.
This concrete was produced incase 18 years after Oawald was buried, he might get dug up.
He might get dug up so a head switch can take place. Or a tooth could be pulled. Or put back in.
Men in black would then mingle with the exhumation team and quietly whisper "national security" which would ensure total silence.

Or we can take the piss out of them.

Because Hargrove asserts widespread fakery everywhere else in the H&L narrative while pretending it's all proven, fakery in the exhumation is deemed proven by virtue of all other unproven asserted fakery.

Then when it is proven through scientific methods and mathematical certainties that the exhumation results are indeed completely valid, he asserts anyone citing that certainty as pretending otherwise owing to those unproven assertions elsewhere. 

The ice is way too thin and even the fastest H&L skater is losing his race with the cracks that are chasing him. Indeed the ice is broken and H&L has fallen through. 

The exhumation is valid. All other assertions are irrelevant by virtue of the valid exhumation. This is not to pretend. This is the reality.