why the bus escape?

I have not done anything but think about things for a while.  A few years ago, I realized I had been bluffed out of reading the bus driver's Warren Commission testimony by a maybe one time poster on a newsgroup.  I don't know how this happens but after about 15 years I said, "Hey, wait a minute."  I always had a hard time believing that Oswald got on a bus to go home, pick up a jacket and his pistol, and take off on foot.  That's more like something you take a cab to do.  I thought Oswald heard that JFK had been shot from a credible source and that, when he got off the bus, he wasn't just changing his mode of transportation but his destination and whole plan, though he might not have actually had a new plan.  Well, the driver said a man came to the bus and said that the President had been shot, they had taken him to the hospital, he had heard it on the radio.  A woman got up and said she was afraid she was going to miss her train and wanted to know if she could get back on the bus if she started walking and it caught up with her.  The driver said she just needed to take a transfer slip.  Oswald also got up, took a transfer slip, and both got off the bus.  Oswald caught a taxi at a taxi stand 6 minutes later 4 blocks away.  He did not seem to intend to use the transfer slip and taking it was a way of saying, "Yeah, me too" without saying anything.  Knowing that there had been shots did not spook Oswald.  It was hearing that JFK had been shot that did.  I think the explanation is that he was part of some operation in Dealey.  He had been prepared to hear shots and probably wild rumors that might immediately start up but when he heard JFK had been shot and it was on the radio, he thought he had been set up by whomever had him take that package into the TSDB and that he would be killed if he followed through with the plan that had him on the bus.  I think he was right about being killed but that the setup was at a higher level.

And to address the actual content of your post.  I have heard people talking about things in "new"  releases that I knew about in the 90's.

David,

the whole "escape" thing has been thoroughly debunked in recent years.

It comes back to the need of police to create time-lines around their suspect which tie him/her to the crimes. If the facts don't do it, then make up your own facts.

And that is precisely what they did.
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1121-oswald-and-bus-1213

You asked these three question on a post in the link.

1. Why would Oswald get on the Marsalis bus?  I think it is because he wasn't going home.  He changed his destination when he got off the bus.

2.Why would Oswald even contemplate getting a bus West on Elm Street at 12:40pm?

This is a plot weakness for me.  Somebody did not anticipate the traffic being backed up as long as it was.  I don't think the plan Oswald was working under had anybody getting shot, but even if there were shots fired that missed, traffic might have been backed up just as much.  Actually, I don't know that it was backed up anymore than it would have been had there been no shooting at all.  This also seems to be a problem for the idea that Oswald on the bus was a fabrication.  Why would they have Oswald on a bus that it made no sense for the assassin to be on?  It did not seem to work out this time, but it might make sense to take a bus back through Dealey Plaza.  If the cops tried to seal Dealey, they would probably put priority on people and buses going away rather than into the crime scene.

3. Why would he need a transfer?  I don't think he did need it and had no intention of using it.  He was using the woman who also took a transfer slip as cover.  It was a way of saying, "I am not running in panic because I heard the President was shot".  I think he was suddenly paranoid.

I guess my biggest question about Oswald on the bus being a fabrication is why would they create a story that is inconsistent with an assassin fleeing, especially the part about the man coming to the bus and saying the president had been shot?  Why did they need that part?  I think makes it look like Oswald thought he was set up.

David, I split this because it was about to hijack Jim's thread.

In response to each point:

1. He never got on the bus and wasn't even living where they claimed he was. 

2. It was a phone call from Porter Bledsoe, claiming his mother had seen Oswald on the bus that started this whole comical situation where eventually the bus driver thought he was being asked to ID Milton Jones in the line-up. Why did they go with this? Because the car Craig saw became toxic when conspiracy was taken off the table. 

3. The plot weakness was "strengthened" by making the Walker attempt, a getaway by bus so that they had a precedent establishing behavior.

4. Didn't need a transfer. He wasn't on the bus. They had to say he had a transfer because a male passenger (not Oswald) did get one. Conveniently, the book of transfers was sitting on the bus while they had McWatters inside grilling him. This is why we have a pristine transfer in the records despite it allegedly being inside his shirt pocket while being pummeled by 6 cops.

6. See above about why, but to recap... conspiracy was off the table so he had to be seen making his own getaway...and they made it consistent by adding a similar scenario to the BS Walker story.

David, the whole time-frame from 7:30 am Friday to the time of Oswald's capture, is a total fabrication.

greg parker wrote:David, I split this because it was about to hijack Jim's thread.

In response to each point:

1. He never got on the bus and wasn't even living where they claimed he was. 

2. It was a phone call from Porter Bledsoe, claiming his mother had seen Oswald on the bus that started this whole comical situation where eventually the bus driver thought he was being asked to ID Milton Jones in the line-up. Why did they go with this? Because the car Craig saw became toxic when conspiracy was taken off the table. 

3. The plot weakness was "strengthened" by making the Walker attempt, a getaway by bus so that they had a precedent establishing behavior.

4. Didn't need a transfer. He wasn't on the bus. They had to say he had a transfer because a male passenger (not Oswald) did get one. Conveniently, the book of transfers was sitting on the bus while they had McWatters inside grilling him. This is why we have a pristine transfer in the records despite it allegedly being inside his shirt pocket while being pummeled by 6 cops.

6. See above about why, but to recap... conspiracy was off the table so he had to be seen making his own getaway...and they made it consistent by adding a similar scenario to the BS Walker story.

David, the whole time-frame from 7:30 am Friday to the time of Oswald's capture, is a total fabrication.

Greg I would say that I am still combing through the work you all have done but, before I get there lol, would you say that the timeline of that day (7:30am - LHO Capture) has been honestly (and genuinely) reconstructed by private citizens such as yourself, barto, etc? Or is it ongoing?

BC_II wrote:

greg parker wrote:David, I split this because it was about to hijack Jim's thread.

In response to each point:

1. He never got on the bus and wasn't even living where they claimed he was. 

2. It was a phone call from Porter Bledsoe, claiming his mother had seen Oswald on the bus that started this whole comical situation where eventually the bus driver thought he was being asked to ID Milton Jones in the line-up. Why did they go with this? Because the car Craig saw became toxic when conspiracy was taken off the table. 

3. The plot weakness was "strengthened" by making the Walker attempt, a getaway by bus so that they had a precedent establishing behavior.

4. Didn't need a transfer. He wasn't on the bus. They had to say he had a transfer because a male passenger (not Oswald) did get one. Conveniently, the book of transfers was sitting on the bus while they had McWatters inside grilling him. This is why we have a pristine transfer in the records despite it allegedly being inside his shirt pocket while being pummeled by 6 cops.

6. See above about why, but to recap... conspiracy was off the table so he had to be seen making his own getaway...and they made it consistent by adding a similar scenario to the BS Walker story.

David, the whole time-frame from 7:30 am Friday to the time of Oswald's capture, is a total fabrication.

Greg I would say that I am still combing through the work you all have done but, before I get there lol, would you say that the timeline of that day (7:30am - LHO Capture) has been honestly (and genuinely) reconstructed by private citizens such as yourself, barto, etc? Or is it ongoing?

Good question because it has all been done in segments, and possibly some of it is more strongly supported than other parts. But just to put down what would be our most cohesive timeline...

Oswald does not walk to Randle house (no neighbors saw him do so)

Oswald not taken to work by Frazier (HSCA testimony of Ed Shields) but possibly taken to work by Bill Randle on his way to Austin (hearsay evidence by a neighbor quoting another neighbor) 

During morning break, a discussion is held involving Jarman, Williams, Oswald and Piper (and possibly others) where it is discussed where they will have lunch and watch the motorcade. It is decided they will watch from the 5th floor or 6th floor. (put together from various testimony and reports)

At noon or just before noon, when Oswald is possibly on an upper floor getting an order filled before he breaks for lunch, Piper is on the first floor and tells Dougherty about the plans made earlier.  They eat in the domino room and then go to the 6th floor (from Piper testimony and statements, and newspaper accounts which claimed the janitor [Piper] "escorted" Oswald to the 6th floor)

Oswald comes down for lunch and either stops on the 2nd floor for coke or goes back up to get it. Is possibly seen by Mrs. Reid at that time. Sees Jarman and Shorty reenter building on the way to the 5th (taken from interrogation reports)

Oswald is drawn outside because of crowd noise as motorcade approaches. Stands briefly in the back, then reenters building.

Seen near storage room by Ochus Campbell post-assassination (Newspaper account quoting Campbell)

At end of lunch break (@ 12:45) he is advised there will be no more work and so attempts to leave. By then, Truly and Det. Erich Kaminsky  are stationed at the door. Kamnski is taking names, addresses for what will become known as Revill's list. Truly is advising Kaminsky on the person's business being in the building. (various early news accounts, interrogation report of Harry Holmes, HSCA interview of Jarman, internal report on officer duties)

Oswald is immediately reported as missing by Truly (yes, Truly let him go and then reported him missing.Truly was not one of the good guys)

Oswald is picked up - possibly by Ruth Paine and is dropped off at Texas Theater where he is to be framed as a communist cell member and killed (refer to first talk and paper done for Alan Dale). Ruth is also not one of the good guys.

Oswald at no time "goes back" to the N. Beckley boarding house, because he is not living there. The name OH lee  actually refers to a H. Lee who is occupying room "0:. When written out in the boarding house ledger, it read 0 H Lee (police report stating Oswald - known as OH Lee lived in room "0"). "H. Lee" - Herbert "Leon"  Lee had arrived from La. around the same time as Oswald and worked as a floor layer by day and a musician by night(FBI interviews of Lee and others). 

Around 1:00 pm or shortly thereafter, Tippit is killed - most likely by James Markham - which is why Helen Markham is hysterical and all too willing to go along with pinning it on Oswald (Hospital report showing time of Tippit death, criminal background of JM)

1:45 Oswald is arrested after avoiding being shot by calling out that he was not resisting.

Wow mate....thank you so very much!

BC_II wrote:Wow mate....thank you so very much!

Very much appreciate you being here and giving a damn, BC.

greg parker wrote:

BC_II wrote:Wow mate....thank you so very much!

Very much appreciate you being here and giving a damn, BC.

You know Greg (you guys can call me Brent btw!) I consider it an honor and a great pleasure being a part of something quite significantly historic within these forums! Its interesting. I at least owe the VERY same amount of time I've spent at the Edu. Forum which was a very long time. I'm no researcher but a student and looking forward to being around (here at RoKC) for years to come.

I'd agree with most of the above scenario with a couple of exceptions.

I reckon Oswald made his get away in the station wagon seen by Roger Craig. The alternative of another suspect looking like Oswald, wearing similar clothes and adopting a similar means of escape is too unlikely in my view.

(As an aside, at some stage it looks like Oswald changed at least his trousers.)

1026 N Beckley is a conundrum. If it were a complete fabrication intended to frame Oswald, it added an unnecessary layer of complexity and witnesses who could potentially stray off-message. Oswald could simply have collected a rifle and a revolver from Irving.
 
Tippit had some role to play that day. He was several miles from his patrol area and the activities of several other officers (Croy, Mentzel, Olsen, etc) are deeply suspicious. The murder of Tippit meant the focus of police action switched from Dealey Plaza to Oak Cliff and gave a pretext to (what was envisaged to be) the murder of Oswald.

Will the HSCA interview with Carl Mather ever be released? This might go some way to clearing up the Tippit murder.


The bus trip never happened but the photographs taken by Stuart L Reed perhaps suggest he was recording the day's events to build a narrative - part of this might have checking out whether Oswald could have caught a bus back to Oak Cliff.

Why fabricate a bus ride?  Oswald ends up taking a cab.  Why not just have him wander around for some time before he takes the cab if that is what is needed.  If the cab ride was fabricated, then two witnesses would have had to lie about the man coming to the bus and saying the President was shot.  It seems there would have been a purpose for it or why complicate things so greatly.  In fact, it seems to me that if the bus ride is fiction then the purpose of it was the part about the man saying the President had been shot.  By taking a bus, Oswald seems not to be fleeing.  He seems to start fleeing only after he hears that the President was shot.  If the story was fabricated, then I believe the intent must have been to have us believe that was what happened.

Redfern wrote:I'd agree with most of the above scenario with a couple of exceptions.

I reckon Oswald made his get away in the station wagon seen by Roger Craig. The alternative of another suspect looking like Oswald, wearing similar clothes and adopting a similar means of escape is too unlikely in my view.

(As an aside, at some stage it looks like Oswald changed at least his trousers.)

1026 N Beckley is a conundrum. If it were a complete fabrication intended to frame Oswald, it added an unnecessary layer of complexity and witnesses who could potentially stray off-message. Oswald could simply have collected a rifle and a revolver from Irving.
 
Tippit had some role to play that day. He was several miles from his patrol area and the activities of several other officers (Croy, Mentzel, Olsen, etc) are deeply suspicious. The murder of Tippit meant the focus of police action switched from Dealey Plaza to Oak Cliff and gave a pretext to (what was envisaged to be) the murder of Oswald.

Will the HSCA interview with Carl Mather ever be released? This might go some way to clearing up the Tippit murder.


The bus trip never happened but the photographs taken by Stuart L Reed perhaps suggest he was recording the day's events to build a narrative - part of this might have checking out whether Oswald could have caught a bus back to Oak Cliff.

Thanks for the feedback Redfern.

I understand where you are coming from with each of those points and would not say you are necessarily wrong, but to further clarify the points in question...

The Roger Craig sighting: I went with Ruth Paine for some specific reasons

1) Craig himself has Oswald bringing Ruth into the picture as the pick-up driver.
2) Ruth testified that she was out "shopping" all morning. Did that perhaps extend into the lunch period?
3) I have Oswald specifically being framed as a communist spy and killed in a theater...with the frame itself using a torn box top being lifted straight from the Rosenberg case (where the box-top scenario itself is now alleged to have been a fabricated story). Ruth "connects" with the crowd I believe was behind this frame.
4) Oswald was your typical looking young white male, so I can imagine post-assassination, any young white male spotted running to a car in that location will cause the human mind to "connect" it to be the person now known to be suspect.

2) To me, if I had got off work early and was planning on going to the movies, but was frugal and had no washing machine, I am either going as is (how dirty could he be after only a few hours work?) or if I change, I change shirt and trousers. If for some reason, I only change one or the other, it is only the shirt. Pants only if I've pissed myself... or spilled a coke on them...

3) James Markham being Tippit's killer works with or without Tippit involvement ln the days events. Because of his criminal background and (and if memory serves) pending matters, he was open to "control" and may have done it on orders in return for a blind eye on other things. Or it was a spontaneous and unrelated murder. Either way, his mother's hysteria and James' jump from an upper room of his home when the cops came looking for him, along with two of his friends claiming to be Tippit witnesses against Oswald -  all point to his involvement, imo.

4) I agree to an extent that N. Beckley is a conundrum, but a photo of Herbert (call me Leon) Lee at a young age, shows he has the same general appearance as Oswald. The disparity between what he told the FBI and what his alleged room mate told the FBI is a concern. That he eventually became a cop is a concern (people maintain cover for many many years in some cases). I also have him pegged as the Leon who was at Odio's  door. We also have the BS story about Oswald giving Ruth and Marina the boarding house contact number, but forgetting to tell them that he was living there under an alias. There is also another thread here that shows he was looking for a family-size apartment the week before the assassination - with the help of Ruth Paine - who also made inquiries for them about renting a washing machine. There is more coming on that btw, through the Alan Dale talks. No other person interviewed recalled Oswald living there... the only paper  document had the OH Lee bullshit... and the grand-daughter has stated publicly that her grandmother quickly destroyed all records they had. The owners simply sew an opportunity for dollars out of the notoriety, while Earlene Roberts was a known fabricator and police groupie (and not to mention, sister of a Ruby associate).

Greg... Just, wow!

Terry W. Martin wrote:Greg... Just, wow!

Thanks Terry.

Re: James Markham... the first person I knew who brought him into the picture was JKO... the second to bring him in (as far as I know) and independent of the work Jim had done, was Lee F. 

Like so much of this case, you really need to dig into it yourself to have the understanding of those who came before.  

A similar epiphany with Hill... Hasan and Lee got me interested and switching from McDonald as the planter... but I wasn't fully convinced until I did a little digging for myself based on their stuff.

Not too much Greg in one sitting, There's 10 hours of TV right there. Wow!

Mick Purdy wrote:Not too much Greg in one sitting, There's 10 hours of TV right there. Wow!

You know... I was recently reading about a play based on Oswald's interrogations... of course, it toed the official line and won high praise - but I'm not knocking either of those things. The writing was true to the existing reports and from all accounts, the players were true to the WC portrayal of their character. So putting aside that it was based (unwittingly) on a bunch of hooey... it is a powerful way to get a feeling and a message across... as you all too well know!

David Wimp wrote:Why fabricate a bus ride?  Oswald ends up taking a cab.  Why not just have him wander around for some time before he takes the cab if that is what is needed.  If the cab ride was fabricated, then two witnesses would have had to lie about the man coming to the bus and saying the President was shot.  It seems there would have been a purpose for it or why complicate things so greatly.  In fact, it seems to me that if the bus ride is fiction then the purpose of it was the part about the man saying the President had been shot.  By taking a bus, Oswald seems not to be fleeing.  He seems to start fleeing only after he hears that the President was shot.  If the story was fabricated, then I believe the intent must have been to have us believe that was what happened.

Why?

This wasn't pre-planned. It was cobbled together on the fly. The only pre-planning imo was in getting Oswald to the TT, planting a pistol, box top and Hidell ID on him and killing him. That implicates one or two or three cops in the plot, but not the whole force.

Their first line of inquiry about his getaway was the Craig station wagon which hints at conspiracy - fine for a little while, but when conspiracy was off the table, they fell back on Porter Bledsoe's call about his mother seeing Oswald on the bus, so they went with that.  They even have Oswald agreeing that he took a bus straight to the movies. But then they found out that the bus was snagged in traffic and it is not going to get him to the Tippit scene in time, so he is taken off the bus and put in cab.

The bus and cab witnesses are the worst bunch of witnesses in history.... since the Tippit witnesses! 

Here are some relevant threads:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t505-william-whaley-cab-36-and-lee-oswald
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t507-alternate-cab-ride-story
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1166-oswald-leaving-the-tsbd
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1165-oswald-and-the-amazing-technicolor-dream-coat
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t99-timeline-of-a-manufactured-getaway
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1121-oswald-and-bus-1213
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1132-dallas-transit-transfer
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t607-question-concerning-time

You know.....concerning LHO being picked up after he left the bldg. Jim D has stated that researcher Anna Marie Kuhns-Walko had a photograph of him going down the slope(?) but oddly there is no access to this photo that I can recall. Jim was asked about it on one of Len's shows but it ended on a bad note as Jim wasn't sure if its still around (correct me if I'm wrong!) or something to that effect. This image should be sought after big time. Would be nice if Kuhns-Walko would post it publicly if she has access to it still.

I would add a third "wow" to those of Terry and Greg.