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Dallas Transit Transfer
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Colin_Crow
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Ed.Ledoux
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Greg Martin
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Ed.Ledoux- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Dallas Transit Transfer
Sun 14 Aug 2016, 6:13 pm
Anyone having trouble going through this thread can watch the old original one here at Bart's site:
http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/rokc%20forum/www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13122617-dallas-transit-transfers-.html
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/rokc%20forum/www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13122617-dallas-transit-transfers-.html
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Greg, Lee, All, good news. I submit to you one complete book of Dallas Transit Company Shoppers Transfers!  As Lee Farley said "The bus transfer is the most curious item involved in this whole affair. If he wasn’t on the bus then how did he get it? Why did it take the DPD two hours to find it? How did they find out it was McWatters who punched it?" First the transfers I have are issued for Sunday June 1959 Manufactured by the Southwest Globe Ticket Co. Dallas - Would become Globe They are for the same route, Marsalis Bus 1213 would use these. The book starts with transfer 019651 on top and run down to 019700. Fifty tickets in a booklet. Signature is of Vice Pres. would switch to Pres. in '63 I can do some tests with the transfers but they are cheap thin paper and would fold and wrinkle instantly in a pocket and would just end up looking like this:  Size of these transfers are rather small flimsy thin paper, I had expected a ticket like an airline ticket. The size is 7 1/2" x 2" for the booklet. A ticket torn like 004459 is 4 1/2" long slightly shorter than the average shirt pocket of 4 3/4 - 5". Ink pen for size comparison:  Note size of original 004459 next to a PO box key.  Every Transfer has instructions printed on the back.  Which state "How to get shoppers free return trip ticket, upon boarding any inbound transit vehicle between 10:00am and 2:00pm ask the operator for a shoppers transfer; purchase $1 or more of merchandise in any one of the participating stores below; pesent your salesslip and this transfer to the transfer desk in THAT STORE, and receive your FREE RETUR RIDE TRANSIT TICKET, which must be used before 4:01 or after 7:00pm (see list of stores on picture) Watch your daily newspaper ads for names of participating stores. The back of the book of transfers, note booklets are numbered.  (Note:inside rear cover is blank) Question is what booklet number was LHO's transfer from? Was the receipt from the inside back cover of the booklet?  Here is the real question: Who wants to contact the archives and see if they have transfer 004451 and the receipt. IF THEY DO then we must get a copy of both sides of each item. If my theory is correct the receipt was written on the blank back cover and the back of 004451 has instructions on it. I know the archives has 004459, I called and had them check, but I did not ask for a copy of the back! [  ] drats!Usually with documents and evidence they photograph and copy each side, just look at other evidence. WHAT is on the back/reverse of 004459? Upon trying to see if its doable to tear transfers from the bottom of a book.... You would need to flip the book upside down to be able to tear from the bottom of the book. Then you can not see where you are tearing. I know your saying well you just peel back the transfer till what you want is showing, ie the 1 and 0, then you fold and tear it. It just doesn't work, takes both hands, is inconvient and pointless. You would open the booklet, place a guide(straight edge, finger, what have you) across the 1 and 0 and tear. Simple and easy. Doing it backwards is not. Only a small staple holds the booklet together, and each transfer is perforated. What did the front office think about the backwards method? I guess it really doesn't matter as to which exact transfer was given when but sure seems easier business wise if its done in numerical sequence....but I digress. "Concerning the transfer, I will leave you with this. We do know that the DPD confiscated the book of transfers from Cecil McWatters. Whether it was definitely the same book that Oswald's transfer was allegedly issued from is anyone’s guess because the actual book was never photographed. We do know "a" book was taken because a receipt was given for it. The receipt has the following written on the back “Receipt for the book of transfers from which transfer was issued to Oswald the accused assin of Pres, John F. Kennedy.” What is tantalising about this receipt is what it was written on. What is even more tantalising is the number of the thing it was written on. Receipt 004451. I’ll leave it up to everyone’s imagination to make their own sense out of what this could potentially mean" ~Lee Farley http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17269 | ||
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | The photo copy of 004451 and the receipt, aka Exhibit No 9, look like they were laid side by side and photocopied at the same time! If this is the case, and I suspect I am correct, then the receipt is on the rear inside cover and the reverse would show the booklet number that these transfers came from. And the reverse of 004451 or 004459 would have the shoppers transfer instructions on them. Its a good day tater! | |
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Greg Site Owner Posts: 2048 | Ed, you sly dog. Great detective work. Can we get a volunteer to make the phone call? If this pans out as expected... it's not just a good day. It's a bloody little ripper. | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | Thanks Greg, I've looked at it ten ways to sunday and the receipt and 004451 appear to have mirrored tear outs. Or near mirrored tear outs. Need best copy of No 9 from archives at least to make final that they are same item or two items side by side. If they are exactly mirrored tear out around the staple area then 'they' may be one item. IOW it could very well be the receipt was written on the back of 004451. it does look as if they match.. So were they torn out exactly the same? I doubt it. But if 004451 was next to rear cover (the receipt), or on the bottom and they both were torn out they would look like what we see in exhibit No 9. see my overlay  Both overlaid to show match for tear out. Could it still be two items? Anything is possible in this case. Match also as said before may mean it is Transfer 004451 reverse side and that means transfers were NOT printed with instructions on the back of the transfers in 1963. I find that hard to believe! It would be like a valet ticket without a disclaimer!!  Looks like two items could not have been torn from a booklet in a similar fashion: The rear cover and, the top transfer/first transfer (or a simply a transfer sequentially numbered 8 transfers before 004459) as there would be 9 transfers worth of stub between the rear cover and 004451 when they were torn this would interfere with such a similar tear out shape. Of course 004459 would not be the last transfer in any booklet 004460 could be, unless the booklet was used backwards. This holds true even should Globe switched to booklets of ten transfers in '63 (not that I think they did) This would hold true if Mcwatters only took ten transfers with him from a full booklet (not that I think this happened or is at all likely). So did Globe stop printing the instructions on the back of transfers?  Exhibit No 9 holds much to see! Where exactly is the original transfer 004451, at the archives .... ? Oh so we don't get duped we need archivist to have a mirror held so you can get image of both front and back at same time. That way nothing can impune that evidence. | |
| -- “Is everything a conspiracy? No. Only the important stuff.” Jeff Wells, Rigorous Intuition PM is THE litmus test of intellectual integrity for researching this case. Those who fall back on the fuxxy picture defense are not of a caliber to understand the ins-and-outs of this case. ~ Terry Martin
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | We need front/rear image of each item, especially of "Oswald's transfer" 004459, we do need to see the reverse side!!! Most important as this will show if printed instructions exists on backs of 1963 transfers and answer questions raised. 004451 we need to see both sides in a mirror. Receipt, same as above. | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | Although the transfer supposedly found on LHO was small 4 1/2 x 2" of thin paper it seems unlikely to be missed in a search of the shirt / pocket. Possible, if the search of the shirt was conducted by Mr Magoo wearing winter mittens... More likely is LHO was never on a bus, never had a transfer, never needed a transfer, but one was supplied for him. | |
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Greg Site Owner Posts: 2048 | Sitting here nodding all the way through I as I read it. | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | Thanks Greg! Interesting we have never seen the back of the 'transfer' 004459. I'm so damn interested to see what is on the reverse! Does anyone know if its been seen? EVER? No one ever has asked for the back? It must be in an image database somewhere Most all archived documents are copied front and rear, even when there is nothing on the reverse. They should have this ready to go for us. Hehehe Again I want to see it in a mirror, so we don't get fooled again, to quote a great rock song. | |
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Greg Site Owner Posts: 2048 | bump (we need a volunteer to phone the achives) | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_381.pdf The Back of 381a or a photocopy of 004459 | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 |  | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | Sans reverse instructions on 004459, one can safely say 004451 is "the receipt" and Globe did stop printing Shopper Transfers instructions on the reverse side. Next is testing. I can complete a detailed experiment where I will match LHO's movements and actions alledged and see how well a shirt pocket protects a flimsy transfer from crinkles, wrinkles, folds, creases and dog ears. | |
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Greg Site Owner Posts: 2048 |
Ed, they may have stopped printing on the back cos most using it would be elderly and I'd assume an occasional complaint would be made about the print being too small to read. My guess is that between 1959 and '63 they posted the instructions inside the bus in largish print. There are a couple of issues for... first obviously arises if 51 and 59 came from same book... The other issue seems to be that all transfer tickers were printed as "shopper's transfer" but could only be used as a shoppers transfer with McWatters punch mark. Without the punch-mark, it was just your ordinary run-of-the-mill transfer - but with it, it is now a SHOPPER'S TRANSFER. Was going to copy and paste McWatters' testimony on this, but it is truly excruciating. But the sense I get is that Mcwatters himself all but rules ticket 59 out as being given to Oswald - because as above - the punch mark transforms it into a shopper's transfer. McWatters' does say you have to specifically ask for a shoppers transfer (presumably otherwise you just get it without the punch hole). Once it has that punch hole, it is useless unless you go spend a buck. Oswald just wanted to get home - not go shopping. And McWatters actually tells them it is in the majority of cases only old ladies who ask for them. McWatters had absolutely no reason to punch that ticket. If Oswald was on that bus, all he needed was the ticket. With that punch hole - he COULD NOT JUST GO AND HOP ANOTHER BUS. At least, that is what I get from it. The punch hole Screw it. I'll post the testimony afterall.. see what you guys can make of it... 
If I am right, that punch hole has just proved Oswald was not on the bus. | |
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Terry Martin Moderator Posts: 1143 | Another marvelous example of using the WC itself to destroy the opinions of the WC. It always has been its own worst critic. | |
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Greg Site Owner Posts: 2048 |
Terry, I can't believe I never saw it before, but sometimes it takes a thread as excellent as this to make you focus. Here is the killer blow from McWatters again and given the Fez treatment, for no other reason than I'm feeling a bit fezzy, but I'll get over it - if they want a Shoppers; well I put my punch mark in that Shoppers there, which they cannot use it for a transfer, in other words, any more than other than--all the stores | |
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- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Sun 14 Aug 2016, 6:14 pm
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Moderator
Posts: 1104
An interesting part of the transfers is the instructions on the front: "Good within 15 minutes of the time indicated on the date issued only, at first point of intersection or transfer point, on connecting lines, except to vicinity of starting point." Mr. BALL - What course did you take, what part of Dallas did you drive in. Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I went from. Mr. BALL - Describe it generally, you don't need to go into any detail. Mr. McWATTERS - I would say from northeast Dallas in the Lakewood addition of Dallas to the Oak Cliff addition of Dallas, which is, would be southwest. Okay he is a Lakewood to Oak Cliff bus. 004459 was punched Lakewood and PM, and torn across at the 1 and 0. Mr. BALL - There is a place near the downtown area of Dallas where you timed your run, wasn't it? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; I have after I get into town, when I get into the downtown part of it, now St. Paul Street is my official time point going in, where they have a supervisor that stays at this checkpoint there, to check all incoming vehicles. Mr. BALL - You would be coming in from northeast Dallas at that time? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; I am coming in from the Lakewood addition of Dallas, which I came in on. The main thoroughfare is Gaston Avenue. Again he is a Lakewood start point, thus transfer would not be usable to vicinity of starting point, ie Lakewood? Only way to get back to Lakewood would be via a Shoppers Transfer, a dollar spent in a participating store, and hop the next Lakewood run during specified times. To get back to Lakewood you would need to pay the fair. Mr. BALL - You were beyond Field and before you got to Griffin? Mr. McWATTERS - That is right. It was along about even with Griffin Street before I was stopped in the traffic. Mr. BALL - And that is about seven or eight blocks from the Texas Book Depository Building, isn't it? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. It would be seven, I would say that is seven, it would be about seven blocks. Mr. BALL - From there? Mr. McWATTERS - From there, yes, sir. Mr. BALL - What did the man look like who knocked on your door and got on your bus? Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I didn't pay any particular attention to him. He was to me just dressed in what I would call work clothes, just some type of little old jacket on, and I didn't pay any particular attention to the man when he got on- Mr. BALL - Paid his fare, did he? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; he just paid his fare and sat down on the second cross seat on the right. Mr. BALL - Do you remember whether or not you gave him a transfer? Mr. McWATTERS - Not when he got on; no, sir. Mr. BALL - You let him on the bus, and he paid his fare, how much is that fare? Mr. McWATTERS - It is 23 cents. Mr. McWATTERS - Now, he paid as far as from St. Paul Street. I made--there wasn't any traffic holding me up whatsoever, I come on right down to where I picked the man up there, in other words, about Field, and that is where the traffic was starting to back up to. So the best of my knowledge I would say it took me 3 or 4 minutes to get down there, so I will just have to say it was in the vicinity of around 12:40. St. Paul is his STARTING POINT. So transfers would not take you back to starting point, the St.Paul Street vicinity. McWatters doesn't say he picked up a man at Poydras/Lamar and Elm. He states and swears in his first day affidavit that he picked up a man Lower End Of Town on Elm around Houston. Senator COOPER - May I ask a question? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. Senator COOPER - Have you testified that you saw this passenger whom you later recognized in the lineup, get on the bus in the vicinity of Murphy Street--is Murphy Street on your right? Mr. McWATTERS - Murphy Street is the street that, in other words, that comes in-- Senator COOPER - Does it run into Elm Street? Mr. McWATTERS - It runs into Elm Street, it dead ends, in other words, into Elm Street. Here is Field Street, in other words, across this intersection and we stopped across the intersection of Field, and Murphy Street comes in to the intersection at about where the bus stops, in other words, where Field Street stops and I guess that Griffin is the next small street that comes in just, it is just a short distance below. Senator COOPER - Well, did the passenger that you have testified about, and whom you stated that you later identified, did he get on in the vicinity of Murphy Street? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. Senator COOPER - Murphy Street--you proceeded from Murphy Street toward the Texas School Book Depository? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. Senator COOPER - Is that correct? Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct. Senator COOPER - Was the passenger that got on near Murphy Street the same passenger that you later have testified about who told you that the President had been shot in the temple? Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they told me later that it was, but at the time they didn't tell me. Senator COOPER - Who didn't tell you? Mr. McWATTERS - The police didn't. Senator COOPER - When you say this passenger got on near Murphy Street, was there anything about him that caused you to take notice of him particularly? Mr. McWATTERS - Well, no, sir. I wouldn't say there was. He was, I would say, he didn't have on no suit or anything, he had on, I believe, some type of jacket, cloth jacket. Senator COOPER - What caused you to remember him getting on? Mr. McWATTERS - What caused me to remember? Senator COOPER - Yes; at the time he got on. Mr. McWATTERS - Because, the reason I remembered exactly because I didn't put out but two transfers, and that, in other words, from where he got on and everything, I didn't have but one, there wasn't but one man on the bus and that was the teenage boy, when he got on the bus, in other words, when he got off, he was the only man except the teenage boy who was on the bus at the time. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_377.pdf Cecil says nothin about picking up a man at Lamar/Poydras in his affidavit. Mr. McWATTERS - He has rode with me since. Mr. BALL - Yes. I see. Did you give him a transfer that day? Mr. McWATTERS - No, because he gets on and he lives within about two blocks of the busline, in other words, where he gets off. Mr. BALL - Do you know this boy's name? Mr. McWATTERS - I believe his name is Milton Jones. ...... Mr. BALL - You were not under the impression then that night when you saw the lineup that the No. 2 man in the lineup was the man who got off the bus, to whom you had given a transfer? Mr. McWATTERS - That is what I say. In other words, when I told them, I said, the only way is the man, that he is smaller, in other words, he kind of had a thin like face and he weighs less than any one of them. The only one I could identify at all would be the smaller man on account he was the only one who could come near fitting the description. Mr. BALL - Let me ask you this, though. Did you tell them the man, the smaller man, you saw in the lineup, did you tell them that you thought he was the man who got off your bus and got the transfer or the man who was on the bus who was the teenager who was grinning? Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I really thought he was the man who was on the bus. Mr. BALL - That stayed on the bus? Mr. McWATTERS - That stayed on the bus. Mr. BALL - And you didn't think he was the man who got off the bus and to whom you gave a transfer? Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir. Mr. BALL - At that time you didn't? Mr. McWATTERS - That is why I say I pinpointed that transfer on that boy as far as that is concerned. But at first, just like I say, I really thought from the height and weight of the two men, 1 mean was just like I say, was both of them were small. In the lineup they had, in other words, bigger men, in other words, he was the smallest man at the lineup- Mr. BALL - As I understand it, neither then nor now are you able to identify or say that you have again seen the man that got off your bus to whom you gave a transfer? Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; I couldn't. I could not identify him. Mr. BALL - Can you transfer from your bus to the Beckley bus? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; sure can. Mr. BALL - Any particular transfer point? Mr. McWATTERS - Well, there are particular transfer points, but we don't question anybody within the downtown section with a transfer. Mr. BALL - If you gave a transfer to your bus, then that transfer would be good on a Beckley bus any place along Elm, wouldn't it? Mr. McWATTERS - That is right, it sure would. Mr. BALL - Up to the place where you change courses? Mr. McWATTERS - It would be accepted; yes, sir. Mr. BALL - Your course is westerly on Elm, is identical with that of the Beckley bus between St. Paul and Houston, isn't it? Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct. Mr. BALL - And from that point you go south on Houston, and the Beckley bus continues west on Elm? Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct. Mr. BALL - So that would be a normal transfer point, wouldn't it? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - Houston and Elm? Mr. McWATTERS - That would be a transfer. In other words, now, like I say, Lamar is the general transfer point of where all the buses cross. Now, I show you this document which is the bus schedule of Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood- Munger, and it shows you leave St. Paul at 12:36 and you arrive at Lamar 12:40. The bus transfers are punched you told me for 1 o'clock. We have a transfer here that you have seen or we will show you in a few minutes as soon as it gets here, which has a punch mark of 1 o'clock. You told Senator Cooper that you usually punched within 15 minutes of the time you reached the transfer points? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes. Mr. BALL - If that is the case, what-- Mr. McWATTERS - You mean why did I have it punched at 1 o'clock? Mr. BALL - Yes. Mr. McWATTERS - Because I punch it p.m. In other words, I have a punch, I am going to Lakewood, I mean I am going Marsalis and I am going back Lakewood, so I just take me two books of transfers. Instead of punching one of them a.m. and one p.m. I just punched them p.m. Mr. BALL - Do you punch within 15 minutes of the time you reach the transfer points? Mr. McWATTERS - That is the way that the transfers are supposed to be cut. Mr. BALL - Well, if you reach Lamar, if you were to reach Lamar at 12:40, what time, according to the rules should you punch it? Mr. McWATTERS - I should have punched it at 12:45. Mr. BALL - At 12:45? Mr. McWATTERS - But I would have to punch one book a.m. and another one p.m., so I just punched both of them p.m. Mr. BALL - In other words, what you do is punch on the hour rather than the 45 and 15 minutes usually? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes. Mr. BALL - In other words, your usual practice is not to punch on the 15-minute interval, is that right, but to punch on the hour? Mr. McWATTERS - Well, just like I say within the closest of the hour like that, in other words. Mr. BALL - Suppose today you were wanting to punch some transfers at the end of the line and you knew you were going to get to Lamar at 12:40. Would you punch--what would you punch it? Mr. McWATTERS - I work that run all the time, I punch at 1 o'clock every day. As I say I worked it 2 years and as I say in order to keep from punching one of them a.m. and one p.m., for the difference in the hour there, I just punch them p.m. Mr. BALL - I don't quite understand that. Doesn't your p.m. start at after 12 o'clock? Mr. McWATTERS - Well, the way the transfers are there, did you notice how they was, they run them until--see how 12:45 there, in other words, that is what they use that up to a.m. in other words. Mr. BALL - It is 12:45 a.m., it runs up to a.m. Mr. McWATTERS - That is what they run it to a.m. In other words, after 12:45 or in there, in other words, everything is punched p.m. Mr. BALL - In other words, everything in the hour from 12 on is punched a.m., the day time, 12 to one is a.m., 12 to 12:45, for that hour, a transfer good in that hour is punched a.m., is that right? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, it can be punched a.m. up to, just like 12:45. Mr. BALL - And the next punch is 1 o'clock and that is p.m? Mr. McWATTERS - That is p.m.; yes, sir. That is the way they have them. Representative FORD - The day that you punched this particular transfer. November 22? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. Representative FORD - You punched them the same that day as you did every other day? Mr. McWATTERS - That is right. Every day, in other words, I just punch them p.m. I punch them p.m., and in other words, so it will be just a straight cut across it. Representative FORD - Is that the usual practice for all bus drivers to use this practice? Mr. McWATTERS - The practice they are supposed to cut them within the quarter of the hour, but in other words, I just have been working that run and I just, it is p.m., and I just make one trip one way and one, back the other, and so I--all I carry are two books of transfers and so I just punch two books p.m., using one going one way at 1 o'clock and the other coming back at 2. Representative FORD - This is the practice you have used for 2 years approximately? Mr. McWATTERS - That is right, when I worked that run, in other words, when I am going one way at 1 o'clock, coming back from the other end of the line I set them at 2. I am back in there at, my next trip I am back in there at Lamar Street, I think it is 1:38 but I always just set them at 2 o'clock. Mr. BALL - We have a couple of more pictures here. 378 and 379 which are pictures of the interior of the bus--Nos. 379 and 380. (Picture marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 374 is the same as Commission Exhibit No. 379.) I will first show you 379. Is that a picture of the bus from front to rear of your bus? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; that is the front and that is the rear. Mr. BALL - Here is 380, is that a picture of the bus taken from the front taken looking towards the rear? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - I offer these in evidence, too. Representative FORD - So admitted. (The pictures referred to were marked Commission's Exhibits Nos. 379 and 380 and received in evidence.) Mr. BALL - I have here an exhibit which I would like to have marked as 381 which can be identified as a transfer issued by Dallas Transit Company, Friday, November 22, 1963. Do you identify it, can you tell me, if you have ever seen that transfer before? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, that is my punch mark right on that there; p.m. (The transfer was marked Commission Exhibit No. 381 for identification.) Mr. BALL - You issued it, did you? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes. Mr. BALL - Tell me when you issued it, on what run? Mr. McWATTERS - I issued it on Marsalis and Munger line at I would say, around to the best of my knowledge it would be around 12:40 or somewheres in that vicinity on November 22. Mr. BALL - And it has your punch mark, has it? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; that is my punch mark. Mr. BALL - Identify it punched in the p.m. section? Mr. McWATTERS - Of the Lakewood column here on the transfer. Mr. BALL - When did you punch it exactly? Where were you when you punched it? Mr. McWATTERS - I punched it before I left the end of the line, in other words. Mr. McWATTERS - I can recognize my own punchmark. I don't think there is supposed to be another-- Senator COOPER - Is there anything else on the transfer which indicates that it was one which would be issued on your bus? Mr. McWATTERS - Well, except only where it is punched--in other words, I come off of Lakewood Boulevard there where that would be the only distinction right there, is the punchmark and the name of where I have it punched there. Mr. BALL - And this document here which is 381, you have identified that punchmark as the one made by your punch? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; that punchmark was made by that punch right there. Mr. BALL - Now, there are on this transfer two punches, there is one in p.m., and there is marked punch Lakewood. Now, the p.m., refers to the time? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - But Lakewood refers to a certain location on your run, doesn't it? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - If this transfer was issued around the Lamar area or St. Paul--Elm area, is there any place that you could punch and show that particular location? Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir. Mr. BALL - You always punch at the end of your destination? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, that is the usual procedure on it. Mr. BALL - Now, on one side of Lakewood is Beckley, where is that? Mr. McWATTERS - Well, that is on the opposite of town from-- Mr. BALL - The other side is Capital. Where is that? Mr. McWATTERS - Capital, well, Capital is in north Dallas, I believe it is. Mr. BALL - Are those Beckley lines listed on the transfer on your run? Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; I don't--you mean on the transfer? Mr. BALL - Yes. Mr. McWATTERS - Well, that is, in other words, we all--they have so many of the lines listed, in other words, I believe they have two divisions, I believe all the buses that work out of the east Dallas division have-- what? Mr. BALL - We can make this pretty simple. You have on this transfer certain names. When you are running Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger, how many possible punches would--location punches would you make? Mr. McWATTERS - In other words, if I was--Marsalis when I left the end of Marsalis out there I would punch my transfer Marsalis, if I left the end of Ramona I would punch them Ramona. In other words, that is so they can't ride them, in other words, they can't ride the transfer. Okay very interesting and shows how a regular transfer was punched to prevent a free round trip. Mr. BALL - Now, Lakewood is at one end of your run? Mr. McWATTERS - That is right. Mr. BALL - And Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood is the other, is that right? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - So you would punch one of those names? Mr. McWATTERS - Going that way, while at Marsalis, I would punch the Lakewood when I would leave Marsalis coming toward Lakewood, I would have Lakewood on the front of my bus but I would punch the transfer Marsalis. So he had Marsalis on the front of his bus, and he punched the book of transfers LAKEWOOD and PM before he left Lakewood towards Downtown Dallas. QUESTION: Does 004451 have the puch mark for Lakewood and PM?  | ||
| -- “Is everything a conspiracy? No. Only the important stuff.” Jeff Wells, Rigorous Intuition PM is THE litmus test of intellectual integrity for researching this case. Those who fall back on the fuxxy picture defense are not of a caliber to understand the ins-and-outs of this case. ~ Terry Martin
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | Cecil McWatters worked that line for 2 years and he always PRE-PUNCHED his two books of tickets when he got them. He pre-punched one book Marsalis PM and one book Lakewood PM. He did not Individually punch each transfer. He did individually tear them at the specified area. There is no punch on the receipt or 004451 in the PM or LAKEWOOD areas therefore 'it' is not from Cecil Mcwatters bus. | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | Mr. BALL - When did you punch it exactly? Where were you when you punched it? Mr. McWATTERS - I punched it before I left the end of the line, in other words. Thank YOU Mr. Cecil McWatters. The Transfer has been impugned. | |
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Terry Martin Moderator Posts: 1143 | Brilliantly played, Ed. | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | Even if 004459 is from his bus/booklet of transfers it only means: A he was wrong about the number of transfers given. could have been zero. Maybe two on the other run? B it is a transfer from the near bottom of a book of transfers. (bottom in a sequence of nine starting 004451) C it from a pre-punched booklet he had after his Marsalis/Lakewood run. D We do not have the booklet to see how many were issued from it, or its booklet number. E Globe will print anything the DPD/FBI wants to order? F (Somewhat speculative but allow me to show you where this goes) It may have been used by a person downtown to board another bus within 15 minutes (35 if issued at 12:40) and then transfer was turned in by another driver at end of that drivers run. Dallas Transit then had the transfer and matched it to Cecils mark. We know this happened when there was a problem, and the supervisor would check the transfer against the index, and talk with the corresponding driver. Back of the envelope that the transfer 004459 was in is marked/signed for at 4pm and sealed. Interesting thing to do AT the police station? | |
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- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Sun 14 Aug 2016, 6:20 pm
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Thank you Terry! So funny what an lil old booklet of transfers can tell us  Okay to sum up, 004451 is an odd duck. It has no marks. Cecil did not punch it PM, which he would have if it came from Cecils bus as Cecil said he "punched it before I left the end of the line" and it should also have been punched Lakewood. Therefore the receipt and transfer 004451 can not be from Cecil McWatters bus and Marsalis run 1213. This throws 004459 under the bus. | ||
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Paul Francisco Paso Administrator Posts: 729 | And the bus story deconstruction continues.... Nice work Ed. | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | 004459 is a fake from a booklet Cecil never had or used. Cecil would only recognize his mark, and would think it was from him it was issued. But we see no marks on 004451 and that means it was not from a booklet used by Cecil on Nov 22 1963. We have been so easily duped into thinking it was a real transfer when Cecil gave us the answer in '64. It is no mystery who presented 0004451 on us its Elmer L. “Sonny” Boyd, and Richard Milton Sims via Fritz' instructions. Sims who gave us this: Mr. Sims. "Yes, sir; they did. I was going back and forth, from the wrapper to the hulls." How do you go from wrapper to hulls in the confined space on the SN? Or even on the outside of the SN. He is speaking of the chicken wrapper left on a box a few windows down. Not a gun case in the corner! Anyways "Mr. Sims. Well, let's see, we first went in there at 2 and we stayed in there evidently—this says here that the Secret Service and the FBI took part in the interrogation of Oswald with Captain Fritz, and we took him down to the first showup at 4:05." Closer inspection 4:05 does appear to be the time on the envelope in CE 381 for transfer 004459 PS. has anyone seen back of CE 378 the route schedule? | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | No prob Paul! Easy to deconstruct this "booklet and bus ride" as the receipt or 004451 was never presented to Cecil McWatters for him to verify that it had came from his booklet/bus.  wonder why? | |
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Greg Site Owner Posts: 2048 | Tho I follow what we have now... Lord forgive me, I'm confused as fuck about the difference between a "shopper's transfer" and a normal transfer - as far as what differentiates them on the ticket itself. Just when I thought I had McWatters testimony figured out  Nice job. Quick question... where did you buy the transfers and how hard was it to find them? I ask because a certain self-proclaimed witness flashes around 2 streetcar tickets as "proof" she rode the streetcar with a certain machine oiler to visit his aunt... I say she brought them off a dealer in such arcane items. | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | Was LHO's shirt taken before first show up with Sims and Boyd? and then given back after? Or did he have it on for the first showing? Finding of the transfer at 4:05 (see envelope) means a search before first showup at 4:05 not after showup at 4:20 or a little before. Mr. Ball. Did he say that he had a T-shirt on and no one else had a T-shirt on? Mr. Sims. No, sir; now, I think the showup that I didn't conduct the next day, I believe he refused to answer questions or said something about a T-shirt or something. Mr. Sims. All right, the second showup was at 6:20, approximately, and there was W. E. Perry, police officer, Richard Clark, police department, and Don Ables, jail civilian clerk. Mr. Ball. Were these men handcuffed at this time? Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; they were handcuffed. Mr. Ball. Were they dressed the same? Mr. Sims. I believe so; yes, sir. Mr. Ball. Were they dressed differently than Oswald? Mr. Sims. Yes; I know they didn't have the color of clothes on or things like that. Mr. Ball. Did they have ties on? 170 Mr. Sims. I don't recall if they did or not. Mr. Ball. Oswald had a T-shirt on, didn't he? Mr. Sims. He had on a brown shirt, some kind of a brown shirt, and he had a white T-shirt on underneath that. Mr. Ball. Underneath that? Mr. Sims. Yes; underneath that. Mr. Ball. His clothes were rougher looking than the other men? Mr. Sims. Well, I don't imagine that he would be dressed as nice as the officers were, as far as their clothes. NEED TIMING OF WHEN SHIRT WAS TAKEN! | |
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Greg Site Owner Posts: 2048 | Ed, I read recently that what they took from him when processing included his shirt. Don't have time to chase the document back up right now... | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 |
Greg, Shoppers Transfer would be punched in the area where it says Shoppers Transfer. You would need to ask for this when you got on the bus and paid your fare. That extra punch equates to making a transfer into a shoppers transfer and gives you much longer to shop and get a free return ride. Transfer of the regular type only lets you get on another bus and ride away from the starting point. Ebay has transfers, and yes a dealer could have these. I'll inquire as to origins. No they did not ride the same bus unless they have transfers numbered are from 004452 - 004458 Marked with Cecil's marks. Yes they could ride a bus and get a transfer from Nov 22 '63, it could be true if you can verify the punch mark for that vehicles driver on that run is same as on their tickets. If they have transfers like 004459 do not hold out on me!! | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 |
HUH? How did Boyd and Sims find a transfer in a shirt he isnt wearing at 4:05 for the first showup then?  | |
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Greg Site Owner Posts: 2048 |
Ed -- didn't have to go looking for it. Remembered what I'd seen. It's not quite as clear cust as I thought. From Fritz' interrogation report: "Oswald's shirt, which he was wearing at the time of arrest, had been removed and sent to the crime lab in Washington with all the other evidence for a comparison test. " I took that at the time I read it to indicate it was removed when he was being processed into the jail. In fact, I can't see how it could mean anything else. You just don't leave potential evidence in the hands of prisoners in your cells. Yet I just did a page search on "shirt" and found this. From one of the FBI interrogation reports dress at Time of interview Black trousers, brown "salt and pepper," long sleeved shirt, bareheaded | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | Thanks Greg! Fritz reports the same story. "During the interview I talked with Oswald about his leaving the building, and he told me he left by bus and rode to a stop near home and walked to his house. At the time of Oswald's arrest he had a bus transfer in his pocket." "On November 23 at 10:25 a. m. Oswald was brought from the jail for an interview. Present at this time was FBI agent Jim Bookhout, Forrest Sorrells, special agent and in charge of Secret Service, United States Marshal Robert Nash, and Homicide officers. During this interview I talked to Oswald about his leaving the building, and he told me he left by bus and rode to a stop near home and walked on to his house. At the time of Oswald's arrest he had a bus transfer in his pocket. He admitted this was given to him by the bus driver when he rode the bus after leaving the building. " ~Fritz But was not normal booking was bypassed and LHO was taken up to the third floor and into Fitz' office for questioning. Correct? I then left the rest of the search of the building with Chief Lumpkin and other officers who were there and told Dets. R. M. Sims and E. L. Boyd to accompany me to the City Hall where we could make a quick check for police record and any other information of value, and we would then go to Irving, Texas, in an effort to apprehend this man. While I was in the building, I was told that Officer J. D. Tippit had been shot in Oak Cliff. Immediately after I reached my office, I asked the officers who had brought in a prisoner from the Tippit shooting who the man was who shot the officer. They told me his name was Lee Harvey Oswald, and I replied that that was our suspect in the President's killing. I instructed the officers to bring this man into the office after talking to the officers for a few minutes in the presence of Officers R. M. Sims and E. L. Boyd of the Homicide Bureau and possibly some Secret Service men. Just as I has started questioning this man, I received a call from Gordon Shanklin, Agent in Charge of the FBI office here in Dallas, who asked me to let him talk to Jim Bookhout, one of his agents. He told Mr. Bookhout that he would like for James P. Hosty to sit in on this interview as he knew about these people and had been investigating them before. I invited Mr. Bookhout and Mr. Hosty in to help with the interview. At 3:15 Bookout asked to sit in on the interview with Fritz which had been going on for 5 - 10 minutes. Yet Bookout report says it was found upon arrest. Taken from his pocket by arresting officers. (by officers at time of arrest) Bookout did not go with LHO to lineup per se but did go into Witness Room to observe lineup. (ie intimidate witness by standing there looking over shoulder) So he actually missed, did not see, the finding of a 'transfer' just before LHO 's 1st showup/lineup.  http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0323a.htm Warren Report states: Chronology The policemen who seized Oswald at the Texas Theatre arrived with him at the police department building at about 2 p.m. and brought him immediately to the third floor offices of the homicide and robbery bureau to await the arrival of Captain Fritz from the Texas School Book Depository. After about 15 or 20 minutes Oswald was ushered into the office of Captain Fritz for the first of several interrogation sessions.2 At 4:05 p.m. he was taken to the basement assembly room for his first lineup.3 While waiting outside the lineup room, Oswald was searched, and five cartridges and other items were removed from his pockets. (They find transfer before first line-up per WCR) Why ride the 1213 when you can get a bus before or right after that bus that takes you to your rooming house on Beckley. You would be able to see the Beckley bus from where the Marsalis bus would be. If its behind the 1213 why a transfer? If its in front of you and your going to walk up and transfer to the Beckley bus then you would not have a transfer in your pocket later. But then again why did you walk past the Beckley bus to board the 1213? If you are wanting the bus you would wait at the corner of Houston and Elm for the Beckely Bus. Mr. BALL - The Beckley bus goes on across directly in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building? Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct. Mr. BALL - As your bus gets into another lane of traffic and does not stop at Houston and Elm and makes a turn south on Houston. Mr. McWATTERS - Yes. Unless you want to make the individual appear as if they did not want to enter the bus there at Elm/Houston corner. Or not want to be on that bus when it stopped there near the TSBD and swarm of DPD officers. Perhaps innocently as imagining the bus would be held up longer than the 1213 which is in the next lane overand turns on Houston to the Viaduct...vs the Elm St. fiasco playing out near the bus stop for Beckley bus. | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 |
Yes yes! Mr. Ball. After this showup, what did you do? Mr. Sims. We brought Oswald back to the office there. Mr. Ball. To the interrogation room? Mr. Sims. No, sir; back to Captain Fritz' office at 4:20. Mr. Ball. At 4:20? Mr. Sims. Yes. Mr. Ball. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office at that time? 169 Mr. Sims. The FBI agents and Secret Service agents talked to Oswald some more. Mr. Ball. What were their names? Mr. Sims. I don't know their names. Mr. Ball. You didn't record the names of the Secret Service officers? Mr. Sims. No, sir. Mr. Ball. Now, do you remember how long this interrogation of Oswald took place? Mr. Sims. Well, sir, we took him back to the second showup at 6:20, so that would be a matter of 2 hours. Now, whether he was in Captain Fritz' office all this time or in the interrogation room some of the time or Captain Fritz' office all the time, I don't remember. Mr. Ball. Now, at 6:20 there was another showup, was there? Mr. Sims. Yes, sir. Mr. Ball. And where was Oswald before you took him to that showup? Mr. Sims. He would be there in Captain Fritz' office there in the city hall. Mr. Ball. And you took him where? Mr. Sims. Back down to the same stage—on the stage there. Mr. Ball. Who was in this second showup? Mr. Sims. The same officers and the jail clerk that was with him on the first one. Mr. Ball. Mention their names again. Mr. Sims. All right, the second showup was at 6:20, approximately, and there was W. E. Perry, police officer, Richard Clark, police department, and Don Ables, jail civilian clerk. Mr. Ball. Were these men handcuffed at this time? Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; they were handcuffed. Mr. Ball. Were they dressed the same? Mr. Sims. I believe so; yes, sir. Mr. Ball. Were they dressed differently than Oswald? Mr. Sims. Yes; I know they didn't have the color of clothes on or things like that. Mr. Ball. Did they have ties on? 170 Mr. Sims. I don't recall if they did or not. Mr. Ball. Oswald had a T-shirt on, didn't he? Mr. Sims. He had on a brown shirt, some kind of a brown shirt, and he had a white T-shirt on underneath that. Mr. Ball. Underneath that? Mr. Sims. Yes; underneath that. Mr. Ball. After that showup, what did you do? Mr. Sims. We went back to Captain Fritz' office, and let me see, at 6:37, we left the showup and went back to Captain Fritz' office. Mr. Ball. And what did you do then? Mr. Sims. We stayed with Oswald. Mr. Ball. Now, in your report, you mentioned that a murder complaint was signed by Fritz that evening? Mr. Sims. Yes, sir. Mr. Ball. Were you present when that happened? Mr. Sims. Yes. Mr. Ball. Was Oswald present also? 171 Mr. Sims. Yes, sir. Mr. Ball. He was present when the murder complaint was signed? Mr. Sims. Yes, sir. Mr. Ball. Where did this take place? Mr. Sims. In Captain Fritz' office. Mr. Ball. And who was present? Mr. Sims. Well, let me see—Justice of the Peace Dave Johnston, and Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander, and I don't know who else was there—I don't know who else was present. Mr. Ball. Was the judge there—the justice judge—the J.P., Dave Johnston? Mr. Sims. Yes, sir. Mr. Ball. And Bill Alexander and Fritz? Mr. Sims. Yes. Mr. Ball. And you? And Boyd? Mr. Sims. Yes, sir. Mr. Ball. And Oswald was there? Mr. Sims. Yes, sir. Mr. Ball. Was anything said to Oswald about the signing of a murder complaint? Mr. Sims. Yes, sir. Mr. Ball. What was said, and who said it? Mr. Sims. I don't remember what was said—I know Judge Johnston talked to him and Captain Fritz talked to him. Mr. Ball. And did Alexander talk to him? Mr. Sims. I believe he did, but I'm not positive about that. Mr. Ball. Do you remember what Judge Johnston said? Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't. Mr. Ball. Do you remember what Oswald said? Mr. Sims. No, sir. Mr. Ball. Did anyone tell him that a murder complaint was being filed against him? Mr. Sims. I believe so; yes, sir. Mr. Ball. For what murder? Mr. Sims. For Officer Tippit. Mr. Ball. Do you remember what Oswald said? Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't. Mr. Ball. Then what did you do with Oswald after that? Mr. Sims. At 7:40 we entered the third showup. Mr. Ball. Now, at 7:30 an FBI agent came in, didn't he, according to your records? Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; at 7:30—we sat in the office with Oswald and Mr. Clements of the FBI came in and interrogated Oswald. Mr. Ball. Did Oswald answer the questions? Mr. Sims. Yes. Mr. Ball. Was he dressed differently than the other three at that time? Mr. Sims. Well, he was dressed differently but I don't know—how differently he was dressed. Mr. Ball. What did he have on? Mr. Sims. He still had on the same clothes he was arrested in, so far as I know. Mr. Ball. In all three showups he had on the same clothes you described before? Mr. Sims. I believe he did. Mr. Ball. Here is Commission No. 150, is that the shirt he had on? Mr. Sims. Yes; that's the color shirt he had on. Mr. Ball. And then he had on a T-shirt? Mr. Ball. After that showup, what did you do? Mr. Sims. Well, we took him back up to Captain Fritz' office. Mr. Ball. About what time was this? Mr. Sims. 7:55. Mr. Ball. And who was there at that time? Mr. Sims. Mr. Clements, and he continued his interrogation of Oswald for about another half hour. Mr. Ball. Now, during this time, or sometime during this period—sometime between these three showups, you searched Oswald, didn't you? Mr. Sims. The first one; yes, sir. Mr. Ball. And that was what time? Mr. Sims. It was 4:05, I believe, but I will have to check my record here and see [checking his record referred to]. Mr. Ball. That was after the second showup? Mr. Sims. No, sir; the first one. Mr. Ball. After the first showup? Mr. Sims. It was before the first showup. Mr. Ball. It was before the first showup—the 4:05? Mr. Sims. Yes, sir. Mr. Ball. And that was after the first interrogation? Mr. Sims. Yes, sir. Mr. Ball. And where were you when you first searched him? Mr. Sims. We was in the holdover, in other words, the showup room. Mr. Ball. When you took Oswald down for the first showup and waited in the room outside, the showup room, you searched him? Mr. Sims. Yes; Boyd and I. Mr. Ball. What did you find? Mr. Sims. I found a bus transfer slip in his shirt pocket. Which pocket???????????? Mr. Ball. Where was the transfer? Mr. Sims. The transfer was in his shirt pocket. Mr. Ball. Would that be on the left side, I suppose? Mr. Sims. I don't know if he's got two pockets or not. Mr. Ball. Let's take a look at it. Mr. Sims. (Examined Exhibit hereinafter referred to). Mr. Ball. Commission Exhibit 150 is being exhibited for the witness' examination. Mr. Sims. Well, he's got two pockets in here and let's see if I have it on here—what pocket it was—I didn't say—I don't remember what pocket he had that in. Mr. Ball. What did you do with the transfer? Mr. Sims. I went back up to the office and I believe initialed it and placed it in an envelope for identification. Mr. Ball. Who did you turn it over to? Mr. Sims. I don't remember. Mr. Ball. You don't remember? Mr. Sims. No, sir; it was either in the lieutenant's desk or Captain Fritz' desk. Mr. Ball. Lieutenant who? Mr. Sims. We have two in there—Lieutenant Wells and Lieutenant Bohart. Mr. Ball. And what about the five rounds of live ammunition, what did you do with those? Mr. Sims. It was also placed in the envelope. Mr. Ball. And turned over to whom—Fritz? Mr. Sims. I don't know who that was turned over to. After a third lineup at about 7:40 p.m., Oswald was returned to Fritz' office.8 About an hour later, after further questioning, Oswald's fingerprints and palmprints were taken and a paraffin test (see app. XI) administered in Fritz' office, after which the questioning resumed.9 At 11:26 p.m. Fritz signed the complaint charging Oswald with the murder of President Kennedy. 10 Shortly after midnight, detectives took Oswald to the basement assembly room for an appearance of several minutes before members of the press Here is LHO in his brown shirt at the Midnight press conference https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctOxFxGfQKE (also he says "asked" not 'axed me that question', get better speakers if you can not hear 'asked' over the metal chair being moved/slammed around. I have new near field powered studio monitors, believe me he says asked.) So: Mr. Sims. I didn't see actually the busdriver, I don't believe, identify his transfer. (Say what! He did not see the Bus Driver ID the transfer!!) Mr. Ball. Do you know the officer that showed the transfer to the busdriver? Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't. They Parafin test his face and hands, finger print him several times all while he is wearing his shirt before the midnight press conf. At about 12 :20 a.m. Oswald was delivered to the jailer who placed him in a maximum security cell on the fifth floor. | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 |
Going on to the next page we see this The Brownish Shirt C11: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pdf/wh24_ce_2011.pdf Det. Bentely via CE 2011 says he initials the shirt on Friday and sends it off with SA Drain to Washinton DC...but Lee is wearing it early into the morning of the 23rd. | |
- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Sun 14 Aug 2016, 6:23 pm
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Drain collects evidence at 11:45 at DPD from Day before flying to DC. From Pat Speers site: Notice also that Day says only that he marked the bag on the 22nd, not that he marked it on the scene. Consider also that the agent tracing the chain of evidence, Vincent Drain, was the one who first took the bag to Washington, and the one who later claimed returning the paper sample to Dallas was unnecessary. Day's claim that he found the bag, and Drain's failure to track down Montgomery and Johnson, and even Studebaker- -who'd previously testified that they'd found the bag--is undoubtedly suspicious to those even slightly prone to suspicion. But, wait, it gets even more suspicious. Drain had discussed the bag with Day at an earlier time as well. An 11-30-63 report by Drain on an 11-29-63 interview of Day reveals:( "Lt. Carl Day, Dallas Police Department, stated he found the brown paper bag shaped like a gun case near the scene of the shooting on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building. He stated the manager, Mr. Truly, saw this bag at the time it was taken into possession by Lt. Day. Truly, according to Day, had not seen this bag before. No one else viewed it. Truly furnished similar brown paper from the roll that was used in packing books by the Texas School Book Depository. This paper was examined by the FBI Laboratory and found to have the same observable characteristics as the brown paper bag shaped like a gun case which was found near the scene of the shooting of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building. The Dallas Police have not exhibited this to anyone else. It was immediately locked up by Day, kept in his possession until it was turned over to FBI agent Drain for transmittal to the Laboratory. It was examined by the Laboratory, returned to the Dallas Police Department November 24, 1963, locked up in the Crime Laboratory. This bag was returned to Agent Drain on November 26, 1963, and taken back to the FBI Laboratory. why? Not send it back? if they did what was the point? Did the FBI send it back? Or is that a story? Was the transfer among items sent back on the 24th? I guess it was evidence so yes. Paper was only a sample. Lt. Day stated no one has identified this bag to the Dallas Police Department." (CD5, p129). Earlier in the evening, about 8:00 o'clock, the division chief had talked to me on the telephone and informed me that the FBI in Washington demanded that we bring them for examination the rifle, the revolver that was used to kill Tippit, as well as the different paraphernalia such as identification cards and other small items that Oswald had on him. I discussed it with the police chief and told him that we'd keep the chain of evidence intact and that I would pick them up there myself and wait for them until they were examined in Washington then bring them back. So it was turned over to us. By the time we got it all boxed up, it was near midnight. Meanwhile Washington was calling down about every fifteen minutes wanting to know where the material was. All of a sudden I learned that neither American nor Braniff had any flights to Washington out of Dallas after midnight. We were told that the FBI in Washington wanted the material by morning if we had to walk it up there. That's being facetious, but… Fortunately the commanding general over at Carswell in Forth Worth happened to be a good friend of mine and was head of SAC (Strategic Air Command) at that time. So I called him and was told that the President had asked him to give us all the help that we needed. Another agent took me to Fort Worth where they had a C-135 tanker plane and crew ready. http://www.kenrahn.com/JFK/History/The_deed/Sneed/Drain.html Seems like the shirt did not make the flight! But the transfer did?  [url=https://books.google.com/books?id=pbdFAQAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA1126&lpg=RA1-PA1126&dq=dallas+transit+company+shoppers+transfers&source=bl&ots=MkJfiRlkz9&sig=D-LOx2SnbOVrfutpB-ThJu3NHyM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2hLOVIOkM4nVoATy74CoDA&ved=0CF4Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=dallas transit company shoppers]https://books.google.com/books?id=pbdFAQAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA1126&lpg=RA1-PA1126&dq=dallas+transit+company+shoppers+transfers&source=bl&ots=MkJfiRlkz9&sig=D-LOx2SnbOVrfutpB-ThJu3NHyM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2hLOVIOkM4nVoATy74CoDA&ved=0CF4Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=dallas%20transit%20company%20shoppers%20transfers&f=false[/url] Says shoppers transfer has RMS on it.  Yes it has RMS on reverse. It also has Three (3) Q numbers! Did not Sims say they put the transfer in it alone? The shells in another envelope? Yes? No? | ||
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | [url=http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/E Disk/Evidence Preservation of/Item 06.pdf]http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/E%20Disk/Evidence%20Preservation%20of/Item%2006.pdf[/url] (Bus transfer, bracelet inscribed "Lee," key, ring, narrow black belt with buckle and property receipt (FBI No. D35) Page 202 http://media.nara.gov/dc-metro/rg-272/605417-key-persons/oswald_lee_harvey_post-russian_period_2_political_nov_1963-jan1964/oswald_lee_harvey_post-russian_period_2_political_nov_1963-jan1964.pdf "D35 Transfer, PD property receipt,·key, ring, ID bracelet inscribed LEE." Page 225 http://media.nara.gov/dc-metro/rg-272/605417-key-persons/oswald_marina_feb_1964-august_1964/oswald_marina_feb_1964-august_1964.pdf D35 is Lee's Bracelet (Note c316 is Gold paper-covered box) [url=http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/F Disk/FBI/FBI Exhibits List Federal Register/Item 03.pdf]http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/F%20Disk/FBI/FBI%20Exhibits%20List%20Federal%20Register/Item%2003.pdf[/url]) Page 28 jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI Records Files/105-82555/105-82555 Section 020/105-20c.pdf. FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION Q262 Dallas Transit Company Shoppers Transfer Number 004459 dated 11-22-63, perforated "P. M." and also perforated "Lake Wood," bearing the initials on the back "RMS" Q263 Dallas PD Prisoner Property Receipt dated 11-22-63, -Number 2833, )with one narrow black belt with buckle Q264 'Dallas PD property envelope item number 113780;-containing the following: Brass key marked "P. 0. Dept. Do Not Dup." Number 1126 Silver color Marine Corps emblem ring Chrome ID bracelet with expansion band with inscription "Lee". The submitted evidence is being retained in the Laboratory for any further specific examinations which may be requested. | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | [url=http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI Records Files/105-82555/105-82555 Section 020/105-20c.pdf]http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/105-82555/105-82555%20Section%20020/105-20c.pdf[/url] Page 26 "It is noted that the above items are submitted in the original envelopes as obtained from the Dallas PD." Tada! Okay envelope and Q numbers all straightened out. Q262 envelope signed and sealed at 4:05 on 11-22 by Boyd and Sims containing the transfer 004459 | |
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 | Nice work, Ed. Fascinating stuff. Keep digging. I remember when Greg and I, along with Duke Lane, first went through all this with a fine tooth comb and the struggle we had trying to fill in some of the gaps. When I originally found ticket 004451 in the Mary Ferrell archives I really didn't know what the hell it was until I later found the reports that accompanied it stating that the ticket was STOLEN by the Station Supervisor at Dallas Transit, one James P. Routt, as a souvenir. As far as I'm aware this ticket had never been discussed before by anybody. I balked at the explanation, especially seeing as how the person who took it was never formally interviewed (Routt's story simply replayed through F. F. Yates who was the Division Superintendent at Dallas Transit) and there is no documented investigation as to how it reappeared into the hands of F. F. Yates to be handed over to the FBI. I had many a long night sat at home going over and over this in my head. I could not believe that the ticket book that we are told originally held 004459 was not taken as evidence from McWatters bus. The only reason to not take it was to hide the numerical sequence or alternatively it was taken and deep-sixed. Instead we are asked to believe that many months after the assassination the FBI suddenly developed an interest in finding out further information about the transfer and F. F. Yates suddenly managed to pull out of his arse the 004451 transfer that was inscribed on the back with: "Receipt for the book of transfers from which transfer was issued to Oswald the accused assig of Pres. John F. Kennedy" accompanied by Routt's signature. By the time the FBI started digging it was too late to find out any further information. The whole thing stinks. One thing I've never been able to wrap my head around is the stamp mark in the Lakewood section of the transfer. Lakewood was the last stop on McWatters bus going in the opposite direction. Lakewood being the area where Mockingbird Lane is. McWatters' bus going in the other direction toward Oak Cliff was the Marsalis bus. So why is Lakewood stamped with McWatters punch? McWatters' bus stopped being the Lakewood bus the minute he turned the bus around in Lakewood and headed back toward Elm Street at which point it became the Marsalis bus - - therefore I would expect the ticket to be punched in the Marsalis section. You certainly do need a fucking masters degree to work out these bus routes and transfer tickets. P.S. The Beckley bus stopped at the identical same set of bus stops on Elm Street as McWatters bus and was due on Elm Street at the exact same time which was 12:36pm. As a regular customer of public transport Oswald would have known this. | |
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 |
Ed, This is an area of the case that just beggars belief. Add into the equation that Gerald Hill and Paul Bentley are on record as both saying that when arrested in the Texas Theater Oswald was thoroughy searched. Gerald Hill stated that Oswald was frisked to the point that if Oswald would have had a razor blade on him they would have found it. Bentley is on record stating that in the theater "Oswald was completely searched and nothing was left in his pockets. So if this is true Oswald had nothing left in his pockets before he left the Theater apart from the bus ticket, his wallet, and a load of bullets. Pretty good search they did. When I raised this at the Education Forum I was, within minutes, messaged by Gary Smack (middle name Smokes) who was quick to defend the search and while he agreed that the search in the TT took place he also said they left the bullets on Oswald because they had the revolver so therefore the ammo wasn't a danger to him or anyone else so they left them. Mr. Smack quickly got told to fuck off. If Mr. Smack wants to pretend he believes his own bullshit then that's fine by me. Not only did he have to smother onto proceedings a further layer of thick shite but then he was then forced into having to prepare another. If the arresting Officers did find the bullets in Oswald's pocket at the TT why did they not mention this to anyone when he was handed over for processing and why did it take another two hours for them to be found? | |
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Terry Martin Moderator Posts: 1143 | Lee, Good questions, all. One can fall back on the old (but very useful) saw about the ineptness of the DPD, or one can speculate that Oswald's pockets assume the same magical cornocupia status held by the Paine's garage. I wonder what else they found in Oswald's pockets when he was rolled into Parkland that final time? | |
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Faroe Islander Member Posts: 96 | Reading McWatters testimony i feel like he is saying WTF to Mr Ball when he is shown 004459 that is punched Lakeview and not Marsalis, also I do not think Mr Ball or any of the other knew how this system was working, I know that it got my brain boiling over today and yesterday. Also the 004451 how can they find the first ticket when Oswald had ticket no. 9 ? some other passenger ought to have this ticket, and also when they dragged McWatters in to DPD only 2 hours ? later and did not secure the ticket albums? | |
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- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Sun 14 Aug 2016, 6:28 pm
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Administrator
Posts: 921
We know the answer to that one, Terry. Once Oswald was dead at Parkland they found John Abt's phone number on a piece of paper in his strides along with other phone numbers including John Hurt's in Raleigh, NC that set the ball in motion in creating even more bullshit to hide the real reason he had it. I do love reading the whole John Hurt called Oswald at the City Jail because he was drunk story. It sure does make me giggle as to the depths of the barrel they had scrape to keep a lid on proceedings. | ||
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 | Delving into this is bringing back bad memories. On the issue of why the Lakewood section of the bus transfer is punched here is Cecil McWatters explanation under the, as always, great lawyering of Joseph Ball who must have gone to the same law school as Dawn Meredith: Mr. BALL - Now, there are on this transfer two punches, there is one in p.m., and there is marked punch Lakewood. Now, the p.m., refers to the time? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - But Lakewood refers to a certain location on your run, doesn't it? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - If this transfer was issued around the Lamar area or St. Paul--Elm area, is there any place that you could punch and show that particular location? Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir. Mr. BALL - You always punch at the end of your destination? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, that is the usual procedure on it. Mr. BALL - Now, on one side of Lakewood is Beckley, where is that? Mr. McWATTERS - Well, that is on the opposite of town from-- Mr. BALL - The other side is Capital. Where is that? Mr. McWATTERS - Capital, well, Capital is in north Dallas, I believe it is. Mr. BALL - Are those Beckley lines listed on the transfer on your run? Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; I don't--you mean on the transfer? Mr. BALL - Yes. Mr. McWATTERS - Well, that is, in other words, we all--they have so many of the lines listed, in other words, I believe they have two divisions, I believe all the buses that work out of the east Dallas division have-- Mr. BALL - We can make this pretty simple. You have on this transfer certain names. When you are running Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger, how many possible punches would--location punches would you make? Mr. McWATTERS - In other words, if I was--Marsalis when I left the end of Marsalis out there I would punch my transfer Marsalis, if I left the end of Ramona I would punch them Ramona. In other words, that is so they can't ride them, in other words, they can't ride the transfer. Mr. BALL - Now, Lakewood is at one end of your run? Mr. McWATTERS - That is right. Mr. BALL - And Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood is the other, is that right? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - So you would punch one of those names? Mr. McWATTERS - Going that way, while at Marsalis, I would punch the Lakewood when I would leave Marsalis coming toward Lakewood, I would have Lakewood on the front of my bus but I would punch the transfer Marsalis. Mr. BALL - I have no further questions. There you go. Makes perfect sense. Just as long as you are smoking heroin and have a brain tumor eating its way through your pre-frontal cortex. | |
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steely dan Moderator Posts: 1013 | More than ever i am convinced LHO never caught the bus. It;s just too fucking complicated for someone supposedly on the run. In other words your better off finding an alternative method of fleeing the scene. | |
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 | One person I did not directly contact when researching the original bus thread was Hugh Aynesworth. Duke Lane did this on my behalf and although I didn't really trust the manner in which Duke was relaying the questions I also knew that he was friendly with Aynesworth and was more likely to receive answers. One answer we did not receive because the question came too late in the day and Duke was long since retired from the the thread was concerning the whole switching of the woman (contained in McWatters affidavit) who boarded the bus over on Marsalis Avenue into the woman who was on the bus over on Elm Street. It was Aynesworth who finally cemented the deal for me when I found one of his old reports that he wrote in the Dallas Morning News the week after the assassination. The elderly woman who had the altercation with Oswald on the bus "was acquainted with Oswald" Aynesworth wrote. Therefore if the elderly woman had an altercation with Oswald over on Marsalis Avenue then the elderly woman did not have it with Lee Oswald because Oswald had allegedly long departed the bus when this altercation took place. And if the woman who had an altercation with Lee Oswald was "acquainted with Lee Oswald" then the woman who had the altercation over on Marsalis was the woman who would go on to be Mary Bledsoe. Therefore Mary Bledsoe was not on the bus over on Em Street and the person she had an altercation with Roy Milton Jones. | |
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 |
We need to find out the answer to the question posed by Ed. The removal of the information from the back of the ticket does not ring true for me. The back of the transfer listed the specific stores you could shop at to get your return journey. That's information needed on the ticket and not only on the walls of the bus. I'd be interested to see the back of 004459. Just so that the other members know the insanity that we are dealing with here when trying to find out what should be very simple stuff here is another extract from McWatters' testimony concerning how the transfer time was cut: Mr. BALL - If you punched, made a punch mark, on a transfer, did you designate the time of the punch or the place of the punch? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; I designate the time of the we have one general transfer point. In other words, Lamar Street is what we call our general transfer point in which all transfers are cut within the quarter of the hour in which you are supposed to be there. In other words, if you was to arrive there at, say, 12:50 or in that vicinity, you always give the passenger the 15 minutes, in other words, within the hour of the transfer. In other words, is the way they have you to cut your transfers across your cutter. In other words, it is just a little thing that you raise up and down and you can adjust them, and right here is a book of them in which you can see the time. It is one, in other words, 2:15, 3:30, and 4:45, and we set them in other words, if you wanted at 1:15, 1 o'clock would be across this direction. If you wanted it 1:15 you would cut across this direction or if you wanted it 1:45 you would cut it in this direction. In other words, 1:15, - :30 and - :45. In other words, the 15 minutes is always given at the time, at the general transfer point. Representative FORD - It is 10:25 now. How would you cut it right now? Mr. McWATTERS - At 10:25. Representative FORD - Why don't you cut one? Mr. McWATTERS - I have a regular cutter, you see; let's see if he can get something that would--in other words, 10:25, I will just cut it, in other words, cut across there, and cut it, in other words, at 10:30, in other words, it would show at 10:30. (At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) Now, call me pedantic if you must, but I'm not sure whether McWatters or Joseph Ball knew what was going on when a request to "cut one" was made. In other words, I think McWatters may have let one rip instead of actually cutting a transfer and handing it over to the world's worst or world's best lawyer - - depending upon your perspective. In other words, I think there may be a bag waiting to be opened at the National Archives containing a fifty year old fart belonging to Cecil McWatters. There is no other explanation for this obvious bullshit. Where the fuck is the commission exhibit of the 10:25 transfer cut during the testimony? Same place as common decency and honour when it comes to this case. Non existent. So, do I have this right. That the transfer would be cut in 15 minute slots like these:     | |
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 | Looking at my previous post a glaring problem exists in the whole bus transfer shenanigans. Cecil McWatters was specifically asked what a transfer would look like if he "cut one" for 10:25. Although we get a classic McWatters convoluted answer he does actually tell us that he would cut it for 10:30. The official timeline has Lee Oswald boarding the bus at 12:40pm. Therefore his alleged transfer should have been cut for 12:45 and not 1:00. So we have him with the wrong timed transfer and we also have a manifest that states he got in William Whaley's cab at 12:30. These fifteen minute time slots didn't really work out too well for the Warren Commission. Oswald, it would appear, was working his way through November 22nd backwards. | |
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Greg Site Owner Posts: 2048 | Mr. BALL - Did you pull out a transfer that had already been set for 1 o'clock time? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. In other words, I just reached up on my cutter and just tore off one which is already punched. Mr. BALL - Then did you punch it again or was it already punched? Mr. McWATTERS - It was already punched. Mr. BALL - And you had punched it at the end of the line? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - So all you had to do is pull the transfer off of the pile of transfers and hand it to the man? Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct. Mr. BALL - And you had anticipated at the end of the line that when you got to about this point it would be a 1 o'clock transfer, is that correct? Mr. McWATTERS - Well, that is right. In other words, there is enough time on it, just like I say, within a quarter of an hour, but-- Mr. BALL - When you got to the police station that day did they show you a transfer? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. | |
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 |
Complete horseshit, Greg. No other word for it. | |
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Terry Martin Moderator Posts: 1143 | It would seem to me that a rather simple process is being intentionally convoluted by the questioning of these procedures by one of "the world's worst or world's best" loyers. Why do the loyers for the WC bend over backwards to make everything as confusing as possible? Fifty + years of debating is the most likely answer. Mr. BALL - When you got to the police station that day did they show you a transfer? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir." And would that not have been the most obvious spot where Perry Mason would whip out the transfer in question and ask if it was the one he was shown? Obviously these "highly pedigreed" clowns were among the world's worst loyers. | |
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steely dan Moderator Posts: 1013 |
They are good, Terry. They know where the mines are and mostly steer the witnesses away. If a witness treads on one, inadvertantly, they are quick to confuse and divert attention from any troubling answer. | |
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Paul Francisco Paso Administrator Posts: 729 | What is the old saying again? Don't call for an inquiry unless you know what the outcome is going to be? The WC was a fucking joke. Pity its a long running one. | |
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Greg Site Owner Posts: 2048 |
Well... yes there are... but we're too polite... | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | 87cents change in LHO pocket....23cent bus fare = $1.10 Why would he need change for a soda? He had at least ten cents in change He would have had upon leaving TSBD (if he did pay for a bus fare of 23cents) 5 pennies, 1 nickle (or 2 or 3) 3 dimes (or 4 or 5) and a 50cent piece. Transfer and other personal property items were released by Fritz on 12-10-1963 to FBI We know the FBI had the transfer before this and assigned it a lab Q number and were to process the transfer. I can look at the color photos of the extant transfer and I see no processing done. No finger print dust, or chemicals, no residue nothing on the transfer. I believe the FBI only photographed the transfer and did no lab tests on the item. Why not? Sure it was found on LHO supposedly, so were the items in his wallet and his ring and bracelet but they were examined and wallet items were all fingerprinted... look at those items discolored from chemicals. Transfer is pristine. See page 107 http://media.nara.gov/dc-metro/rg-272/605417-key-persons/oswald_lee_h_post-russian_period_4_aliases/oswald_lee_h_post-russian_period_4_aliases.pdf Items in wallet were treated for latent prints. Only reasons to fingerprint items were to find LHO prints or someone who helped LHO make the selective service card etc. So transfer 004459 should still hold prints from McWatters, LHO, and Boyd. Yes? If there are no prints from LHO or McWatters then there would be a lot of explaning to do...so the lab was instructed to not process the transfer. That is the only conclusion I can surmise. | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | Lee glad this stuf makes you smile  So Cecil pre-punches his two booklets of transfers. He says so himself several times. He says he does this at the end of the line and this is the regular procedure. I do have doubt that Cecil, having given out two years worth of transfers, would waste time as he knows what the transfers are going to be. They are all PM. The Lakewood run transfers he would pre-punch Marsalis. This prevents a rider from getting a free return trip to the Marsalis area. To get a free return trip, you would, upon boarding ask Cecil for a Shoppers Transfer. Cecil would take a pre-punched transfer and ADD a punch in the Shoppers Transfer section. Turning the transfer into a Shoppers Transfer, allowing the rider to get off downtown and shop til 4 or 7 and get a free return ride via a slip from participating stores (listed on back of transfer or in Newspaper). Now the cutter that cecil used to show Belin how to cut the transfers is important to our understanding of how the transfers were tore/cut. Upon inspecting 004459 it seems it has been torn rather than a cutter leaving a sharp edge. I guess its a little late to ask Ball or Cecil to show us how that worked! (DART reunioun maybe good place to ask) I assume the way Lee has shown in images is how the cutter would be used. (at an angle) 004459 is torn to show 1 and 0 or 1 O' Clock, straight across, no angle. So transfer would be good for 15 minutes from time shown of 1:00pm, thus good till 1:15pm Terry, How did Cecil see a transfer when he arrived at the police station that was in an envelope, sealed by Boyd and Sims at 4:05pm? Neat trick!!  The transfer 004459 was pre-punched Lakewood and pre-punched Pm. It was from a booklet of transfers sequentially numbered which were supposedly sitting on a cutter in Cecils bus...scratch that. He was on a different run on a different bus. Did Cecil carry around the used booklets? Did he turn them in at end of Marsalis/Lakewood run, and then get transfers for his next run? Or did he take all the transfers for all the routes he would do that day with him when he left the Dallas Transit Co. that morning. Seems he stated he left with two books of transfers for his Marsalis?Lakewood route. Did he park that bus 1213 back at the bus garage? Or does the next driver show up at the end of Lakewood/Marsalis or at St.Paul and Elm to take over the next shift. Why does he change routes? Why does he only work a few hours here and there? Why not do a single route from morning till night a full 8 hours? Questions questions questions... Now Cecil upon showing Ball how to cut the transfer does not say he starts at the bottom of the book. He shows Belin that the TOP transfer is cut/tore in such a fashion to produce the time closest to when the issue time was. This sinks 004459. 004459 would have to be sitting at the top of the book under the cutter so Cecil could just tear it off quickly. Again Cecil PRE-PUNCHED his transfers, I would do the same, If I drove the same route for two years and all I ever gave out was 1pm transfers. He pre-punched the routes, Marsalis on all transfers in one booklet and Lakewood on the other. Then he set his cutter across the 1 and 0 so he could just reach over and with one hand tear off and hand the transfer to the rider. No thinking involved. Reach, tear, hand off. No addition or subtraction for Cecil please! Now if a lady boarded the bus and wanted a Shoppers Transfer, then Cecil would take his punch and add a punch mark in the section labeled 'Shopppers Transfer'. Then the lady can depart the bus downtown to shop till 4 or 7 and spend a buck to get a 'slip' from participating stores, previously listed along with instructions on the back of the transfer. (or listed in newspaper) With the 'slip' you get back home, or where you started for free! Otherwise you have a regular transfer which if you received it from Cecil at 12:40 would be good to 1:15pm!!! Why did he not tear 004459 at 12 and 45 (assuming he did give out this transfer), it is a straight cut across at the bottom of the transfer. Why? Because he is a lazy or smart, bus driver that's why. He sets the cutter to 1 and that is it. He does not give out 12:45pm Lakewood bus transfers. He gives out 1pm transfers because he may have someone ask for one at 12:50. Well that would be a 1pm transfer, even though they get ten extra minutes. Same for one he may give at 12:36 at St.Paul and Elm. It will still be a 1pm transfer from Cecil. Now don't confuse Cecil with the rules and regulations department of Dallas Transit Co. Cecil is just working a job the best way he can and making it simple is part of that job. "we consider up to 12:45 a.m" See! so he marks them all PM. as he will be at St.Paul and Elm at exactly 12:36 he just cuts his PM's at 1 and calls it good. If he wanted to pre-punch his transfers to make life easy, then anything before 12:45 would need to be PRE-PUNCHED AM. Then that transfer/ or BOOK OF PRE-PUNCHED transfers is now worthless as soon as he leaves St.Paul. If someone wanted a transfer at 12:50 and they are already punched AM then the transfer has expired before they get off the bus with it.  So! No angled cuts! Necessary. Just tear them at 1pm and all transfers Weird I was thinking ....I know bad sign huh!...but seriously I was thinking if I was driving I would PUNCH beside the fifteen minute interval that I wanted. For 10:30 I would PUNCH beside the 30 And For the Hour I would PUNCH beside the 10 and tear the WHOLE TRANSFER OFF AT THE PERFORATION (down at the staple area) But that is just ME and my brain working. So could the transfer 004459 have been torn from a booklet of transfers from Cecils bus? Or is 004459 a sample showing the DPD how he, Cecil, punched a transfer on that day? Was the booklet used backwards? NO! Cecil is showing Belin how to use the cutter on a transfer...obviously the TOP transfer from a booklet. Cecil did not flip book over, remove or fold back the rear cover, peel back the last transfer and then cut it. He merely placed cutter on transfer. Did Ball mark this as an exhibit? No. Did Ball have Cecil mark(punch) the transfer he had just cut as he would normally a transfer? No. BUT in his wisdom Ball did save and enter this item, http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_372.pdf Oh thank you Mr. Ball  | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 |
mahalos Lee! I do remember the Ed forum discussions and brilliant threads from real eyes on investigating. Yes It is always tough to let someone else ask the necessary questions follow-up questions once you absorb the answers. I don't doubt Duke would have pried something open if there was a gap presented, but may not have asked in the manner as to open a gap. Being open to the answers helps. To explain the punch, Cecil is at the end of the route. He has turned around at Lakewood shopping center. He changes the sign on the front of his bus to display MARSALIS. This informs potential passengers waiting for a bus along the route back he is taking that this bus is heading to the Marsalis area. BEFORE HE LEAVES LAKEWOOD SHOPPING CENTER Cecil punches Lakewood in a booklet of Dallas Company Transfers, all of them, and possibly (TEN), this is so riders can not get back to Lakewood. He is inbound from Lakewood. Riders will be picked up from the Lakewood area. The company does not want to give free rides back. Ok? Cecil punches all transfers Marsalis when at end of route leaving Ann Arbor heading back towards Lakewood. He changes the sign to display LAKEWOOD on the front of his bus. The riders he picks up along the way will be from Marsalis area. The punch in Marsalis prevents the riders from using the transfer to get back to Marsalis area for free. To get back to Lakewood (or Marsalis) free you need to ask for a shoppers transfer and pay your fare when you got on the bus. Cecil would place a punch mark in the shopper transfer section and hand it to you. The extra punch in the section labeled Shoppers Transfer makes this a free ride transfer. (if you spend a $1 in participating store and get a slip) Cecil already had his transfers punched PM and either Marsalis or Lakewood. Correct? So if you wanted off at Lamar, asked for a transfer, got a transfer Cecil tore off one from the booklet under the cutter at 1pm then you can stay downtown for at least 15 minutes before boarding any bus at Lamar to anywhere that bus goes, as long as its not back to Lakewood (or Marsalis) depending on how the transfer is marked. If Cecil drove your ass all the way from Lakewood to St Paul, or even Lamar Cecil's last stop downtown, and lets you off and you ask for a transfer which is marked MARSALIS then you can get back to Lakewood area free by getting on the next bus to come along at Lamar heading near Lakewood.....for free! Not gonna happen, why, drivers mark the transfers from where the bus came from or more importantly where YOU CAME FROM. You want to go back home? Spend a $1 at a store after asking for a shoppers transfer or pay the fare from Lamar to back to Lakewood (or Marsalis) 23 more cents or whatever. The whole point is Cecil knows this too. "when I got in Lakewood Addition I set my transfers for downtown." He dives the same bus for two years. If there is a shortcut to make he knows it. So he pre-punches the two books and has the booklet under the cutter ready to go. tears them off as needed. Easy peasy Weasy He even gives you a few extra minutes, why, is he a nice guy? No, it is easier to just pre-punch and tear at 1 rather than 12:45 which makes the pre-punching wrong. 12:45 would be AM. Punch them all PM as he said. Punch them all Marsalis for the booklet he will use on the Lakewood route, and Lakewood on the Marsalis route and place them in the cutter under the 1 O' Clock section, a nice straight tear. Swap booklets at end of run and repeat. Schedule CE 378 shows he starts at 12:11 at Lakewood. So by the time he hits Lamar at 12:40 it makes sense he skips the five minutes. But this is still AM and that messes with his system. This is key and he is telling you 004451 is bogus! He doesn't say it as 004451 was not show to him, he was showed 004459. Of course a transfer with the correct mark in the right spots would tend to make Cecil say it was from him on the route at the time and date indicated. And if 004451 is not from Cecil on that route, because it is not set for downtown then 004459 would be bogus too! Can I get my Masters now? How about Diploma? | |
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Greg Site Owner Posts: 2048 |  | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 |
I owe a debt to you for 004451! Lets follow the search Here is D154 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=1015561 This shows the transfer 0004451 with a map. Were these two items picked up together at Dallas Transit from James P. Routt and ...........I can't make out the signature under it ???? Page 7 http://media.nara.gov/dc-metro/rg-272/605417-key-persons/mcwatters_cecil_j/mcwatters_cecil_j.pdf "All transfers North and South are marked 1pm" Page 10 http://media.nara.gov/dc-metro/rg-272/605417-key-persons/mcwatters_cecil_j/mcwatters_cecil_j.pdf They commission asks he bring his punch and any materials, papers, documents related to assassination that are in his control! page 12 shows that Cecil would change the bus sign on "front and side to read 30 Marsalis" also a small sign in the lower right of front window would be changed to read 24 which is the "train number." Is the T&P #24 aka THE LOUISIANA LIMITED the train the woman whom got a transfer wanted to catch? http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth286016/m1/6/ Page 13 DRIVERS ARE ISSUED BOOKS OF 50 TRANSFERS Driver tears off first transfer and writes his badge number on the back and turns it in. So 195 was McWatters badge number as written on the back of 004451. So 004451 would not be punched after all. 004451 would be turned into the Station Office and kept for two months then destroyed. (thrown in trash to be snagged up by Routt?) Signed the back "J.P. Routt Sta. Foreman." Kept as souvenir. Booklets were issued to drivers. Driver asked for as many booklets as driver thought he needed for the run. F.F. Yates, Division Superintendent had no other information concerning the other transfer books issued Mcwatters 11/22/63!!!!!!! This is in response to page 18 and the question of all the transfers issued Mcwatters 11/22 and if the transfers are issued to the drivers in numerical Sequence (ie would Cecil have gotten the next booklet starting 004461 or previous booklet 004401 for his return run to Lakewood?) Hoover sends Rankin a bound volume entitled "Bus and Taxi exhibits" Page 30 Milton Jones was off in his time he boarded Marsalis bus. Said he waited till 12:10 - 12:15 for it. Mcwatters leaves Lakewood at 12:11 and left bus at Brownlee at 1:45, states Cecil was at DPD till 1am Sat. being questioned. | |
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- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Sun 14 Aug 2016, 6:31 pm
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Awww shucks! Thanks Greg, Lee and the 4 Musketeers!! My GED just wasn't cutting it. Nice touch with the picture of bus 433 | ||
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 | Ed, I think there exists the possibility that this cutting machine that McWatters says was used to cut the transfer time is completely bogus. I'd like to see one. Here's why. The explanation you give about using the stamp to indicate the transfer time is foolproof. If someone needs a 1:30 transfer you use your punch on the 1 and the 30. If someone wants a 12:15 transfer you use your punch on the 12 and the 15. That way the ticket cannot be changed to give you a later transfer. For instance if I got a 12:30 transfer then, according to McWatters testimony, virtually the entire ticket will be handed over to the customer who could just tear the ticket at whatever time they required later in the day. None of this makes any fucking sense whatsoever and I think we can hazard a good guess why no exhibit was created from McWatters' magical cutting machine after being asked during testimony to "cut one" for 10:30 by Gerald Ford. What do you think are the odds that the tear (because it is torn and not cut) across the 1:00 section on 004459 was made to remove a different transfer time? Something is really bugging me about this... | |
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 |
Question, Ed; why would James P. Routt sign the back of his souvenir with his own name? | |
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- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Dallas Transit Transfer Cont.
Mon 15 Aug 2016, 7:27 am
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Moderator
Posts: 1104
So drivers are issued booklets exactly like my booklet. The lack of forthcoming information about the other transfer boklets issued to Cecil and Bal and Belin failure to ask the important question of where in a book or The book did 004459 come? Did it come from the top 10 transfers in a booklet starting 004451? Or did both 004451 and 004459 come from farther down in the booklet? We have to assume it was 004451 that represents an official receipt for book of transfers used by McWatters 11/22 Where does this leave 004459? It is from farther down in a booklet than the number of transfers issued by Cecil. If he issued two transfers, 004452 and 004453 should logically be missing if issued by Cecil but not redeemed by passenger it was issued to. Then there are 47 more transfers in that booklet unused at the end of his run and that would include 004459. Now Cecil said he took two booklets. Booklets of 50 transfers each or 100 transfers. That is a lot of transfers! Especially when he may have given out two. Would it make sense he takes this many? Especially when he can pre-punch them all PM. I'm guessing if something happens to the bus he would need to issue transfers to ALL passengers on the bus. And if the bus was at capacity...yeah he may need them. Transfers are numbered in sequence starting from 1 through 50, then from 51 through 00. The booklet I have is the same type sequence. 51 -00 as the one issued to Cecil. Map shows Roy Milton Jones would have boarded at the Capri Theater area where Cecil would park an kill time if early rather than be early at St. Paul and get a warning from the Bus Nazi' So it seems Cecil was early that day and arrived after 12:15 according to Jones and if that is correct then Cecil would wait there till 12:35 and be at St.paul in a minute at 12:36. Looking at the map CE 376 his route goes just shy of Mockingbird Ln. on Anita. Gaston to Brendenwood drive where he can loop around Lakewood to Cambria Blvd then Back to town on Gaston. But he says Ellesworth - Anita and CE 376 shows route going Gaston -Brendenwood Dr-Lakewood Blvd-Wendover Rd-Sperry St- (Ellesworth - Hillside Dr- Anita St. or reverse) and back down Sperry Street. None of which is on his 6-4-1962 schedule. Was this added to this route? Did he have to stop at Paulus, Peak and Hall for passenger pick ups on 11/22? We are not told but Cecil says maybe 5 passengers were inbound from Lakewood. If they all got transfers and also a working man and a lady with suitcase at Griffin that would leave 004459 on top of book. 1 receipt, 5 passengers, the Man and the lady = 8 transfers leaving 4459 on top!!! Munger has always bugged me as it is skipped. It is not in the bus runs. 15 Ramona, 42 Elmwood, 30 Marsalis, 22 Beckley, etc etc etc, the runs are all shown with maps and schedules in the WC volumes. But NO MUNGER run. Was it forgotten, discontinued? What would be the reverse of the Munger Run, See this gem: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pdf/WH24_CE_1978.pdf Map is newly printed yet out of date as to the scheduled runs route. and some routes stay the same for years http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/pdf/wh26_ce_2694.pdf A better copy of the map would help http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0012a.htm Are the bus stops all Southbound? http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0226a.htm Shitty drawing makes it look like all the circles and dots are only dots thus Southbound Beckley Bus Stops...on both sides of the street no less. oy veh Craig knows nothing about a transfer  http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/pdf/WH6_Rackley.pdf McWatters was at the 6:20 show up! http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/pdf/WH7_Brown.pdf Detective Dhority showed Cecil the transfer with the punch marks... but Brown mentions another officer there with "this stub" WTH? Is it Sims or Boyd? Brown : Yes McWatters said "Yes he is the one that got on the bus I gave him a transfer" This about his ID of the number two person in the line-up, yet Cecil thought it was Milton??? Did he give a man whom did not remind him of Milton Jones a transfer? The man whom knocked on the door and got off. Or did Cecil think he gave a transfer to Milton Jones and that was him, Milton, in the lineup? He said to Milton on a later ride he did think it was Milton whom was number 2 and in trouble. But Milton got off in Oak Cliff at Brownlee and rode the bus often. He would not need a transfer unless he decided to get off the bus that day when it was stuck in traffic Seems odd. 0488d 3/10/64 Results of interview with J.T. Hurry, Superintendent of Maintenance, Dallas Transit System 0488e 3/10/64 Results of interview with C.W. Eltrich, City Transportation Company The Blue Front Cafe had two Dallas Transit buses infront on Elm at the time Cecil was there. (Mrs SF) Fritz has LHO heading from rooming house where LHO changed clothes to movies and encounters Tippit along the way?!? http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pdf/WH24_CE_2155.pdf Quick thinking reporter asks if he had the bus transfer in his pocket right after Fritz says LHO changed clothes. Nice. Here Kelley reports Oswald told Fritz he left by bus from TSBD, secured a transfer when he got on the bus and transferred to other buses to get to his destination. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/pdf/WH20_Kelley_Ex_A.pdf Says this was LHO's first time in a cab as buses are always available. Paid 85cents fare. (87c+23c+85c=1.95 in change Lee would need for these cab/bus rides plus change he had at time of arrest...would he have to get change from Hine for a soda if he supposedly had almost two dollars in change on him, maybe he drank a lot of soda or really liked Hine) QUESTION: http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/01/0190-001.gif I see the transfer listed among Lee's personal property. Personal property that was in the evidence locker till the 30th with a tag date of 11/23 as Lee was not officially taken to jail/booked till 12:20am Sat. 23rd. and items would be entered then. http://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/the-life-and-death-of-lee-harvey-oswald/ Question is why is the transfer in with LHO's property? Why not with other 'evidence' like the shells? Would the transfer being locked up in the property locker prohibit its flight to Washington DC with Drain? Hmmm, what do you think?? | ||
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Terry Martin Moderator Posts: 1143 | Apparently, the transfers were not cut on a diagonal, or with scizzors or anything like that. I remembered using the DC transportation a lot when I was younger and remembered a mechanism the driver used to tear off a transfer. With the touch of a simple mechanism, the transfer booklet would be advanced to the new time position. An example of the cutter. http://globeticket.mybigcommerce.com/transfer-cutter-2-notcher/ | |
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Greg Site Owner Posts: 2048 | Nice, Terry. I could well imagine that sometimes tickets didn't cut cleanly. If pulled the wrong way, you would end up with a tear instead of a cut. | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | Dale K. Myers said... (FWIW) Michael - As far as I know, the bus station (do you mean stop?) you described was not there in 1963. If you mean a bus stop, yes, there was one there in 1963. However, as pointed out in With Malice [pp.358-59], Oswald had a bus transfer on him that was good for only one bus stop - the one at Marsalis and Jefferson. Had he taken that bus south he could have made connections to Mexico via the Greyhound bus line through Laredo, Texas. The Warren Commission figured Oswald had just enough money on him to reach Mexico and might have been able to use his pistol to acquire more. This escape scenario made it to the August 7 draft of the final report but was cut for being speculative rather than factual. No doubt the Commission was anxious to dodge the international implications as well. March 24, 2012 at 9:57 AM Boyd finds Five shells, and Sims finds Transfer. LHO takes off Marine Corp ring and hands it to Sims. (...Bracelet?) http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/pdf/WH21_Sims_Ex_A.pdf | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | Cecil Mcwatters drove a bus manufactured by White and it was a 44 passenger bus, so at capicty he would need at least 44 transfers if the need arose. It takes 6 1/2 inutes to walk to Elm and Murphy and is Seven blocks. In heavy traffic it took the bus 4 minutes to make it two blocks to Poydras and Elm. Dale K. Myers said... FWIW Michael - As far as I know, the bus station (do you mean stop?) you described was not there in 1963. If you mean a bus stop, yes, there was one there in 1963. However, as pointed out in With Malice [pp.358-59], Oswald had a bus transfer on him that was good for only one bus stop - the one at Marsalis and Jefferson. Had he taken that bus south he could have made connections to Mexico via the Greyhound bus line through Laredo, Texas. The Warren Commission figured Oswald had just enough money on him to reach Mexico and might have been able to use his pistol to acquire more. This escape scenario made it to the August 7 draft of the final report but was cut for being speculative rather than factual. No doubt the Commission was anxious to dodge the international implications as well. March 24, 2012 at 9:57 AM page 15 214 Neely St would be on the Bishop Bus Run No. 4 http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/pdf/wh23_ce_1953.pdf VC Snider...."after paying the fare a transfer can be asked for which entitles him to board any bus destined for the Oak Cliff area at any of the may transfer points in the downtown area . This would be necessary only if the original bus was not destined for a desired destination point in the Oak Cliff area." Page 55 Dhority takes Cecils affidavit "also made identification of transfer defendant had in his pocket." http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pdf/wh24_ce_2003.pdf Okay some would say the transfer has to mean LHO rode a bus. Not exactly. It could be a plant. I say that because of the lack of chain of evidence surrounding the booklet and receipt and other transfers in the booklet. The booklet would show how many transfers were issued and at what time they were issued for, booklet stubs would tell the story. The booklet would show that Cecil punched the transfers at the end of the line or "set the transfers for downtown." A transfer in LHO pocket....Hmm when questioned would Lee say look in my pocket, there is a transfer, I took a bus to the movies. Frizt may say that the transfer means Lee got off the bus immediately. NOT SO! You can ask for a transfer upon boarding. Does not have to be a shoppers transfer. You may want/need to switch buses downtown. So you can ask for a regular bus transfer or just a Transfer at any time, even if you do not get off that bus.(immediately) Perhaps you thought the bus was stuck in traffic and asked you for a transfer. Then the cops open a lane for buses so you decide to stay on the bus as traffic seems to be moving again. You stay on the bus, ride to Marsalis, walk six blocks to 1026 N Beckley, if you can get off on E. 5th or E. 6th Streets, or Jefferson Blvd for seven and a half block walk to Theater. Why does Cecil pre-punch transfers at the end of the run or 'sets them for downtown' is because a passenger may enter his bus at anytime on the way to downtown. Upon entering they would pay the fare and may ask for either a bus transfer or a shoppers transfer. Thus Cecil was prepared for this by pre-punching. All his transfers were pre-punched PM and either Marsalis or Lakewood. (All except 004451 the receipt which was torn from front of booklet and Cecil placed his badge number on the reverse....Seems a punch mark would be equal to or superior to a badge number wrote on the back for ID purposes) Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. Does Fritz talk with or send someone to speak with someone about the Beckley Bus Run No. 22, like the driver?  Fritz can't know about a transfer till after its 'found' at 4:05pm. Why doesn't LHO offer up the transfer in his pocket as proof? There is no Cab ride until there is a bus transfer found at 4:05pm. But LHO supposedly says he transfers to other buses to get to Beckley. Maybe he did transfer buses. Just as he said. Went ahead of Cecils bus to the Beckley bus? But that bus as I've pointed out has to stay in the right lane to make a stop at Houston and Elm. It then goes through the madhouse infront of TSBD. Where as Cecil turns onto Houston to the viaduct. Gets as close as 6 blocks from 1026 N. Beckley and gets there faster. Or you can catch a cab and have it drop you 5 blocks away, and have to walk six minutes back to 1026!!! WHT? LHO did not take cabs or pay extra to drivers for driving past the address and adding cost to his travels. He did not take cabs. If he did then why not hail a cab anywhere along his route? Yes the only place to find a cab in downtown Dallas around noon is the cab stand at Greyhound Station four blocks and three minutes walk away at Lamar and Jackson..... oy vey  (Gives Whaley $1 for 95c fare so no change to add to our running total of change in Lee's pocket. Didn't some say Oswald claimed 85c? fare, close guess for never having riden in a cab) But we all know, as Mr. Farley has pointed out, the cab logs don't jive. Whaley may have had a passenger to Beckley that day but he was back at the station before Oswald left the TSBD. So the cab is sunk before it leaves! The bus is no better, because the rider supposedly gets off. So how does a guy get to the Theater if he did not go by bus, cab, or trolley car, billy goat, or roller skate? Craig tried to help the DPD out on this one. LOL!! He may have rode a bus to Oak Cliff, his normal procedure. Was it the Beckley Bus? "he told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley" | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 |
AWESOME TERRY!!!  I wonder if this is the regular cutter he was talkng to Ball about http://globeticket.mybigcommerce.com/transfer-cutter-w-o-notcher/  Neither cutter works with a booklet upside down or in reverse,,,, sorry Cecil we can see the forest for the Lifton Trees. Yes the cutters are exactly the evidence the WC did not want entered into the record, or the sample cut by Cecil for Ball. So no ANGLED CUTS. SO HOW DID CECIL MAKE A TRANSFER FOR 10:30? It seems cutters would make a 10:15 transfer. Maybe time to talk to a Globe rep. | |
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Greg Site Owner Posts: 2048 | So what's doing at all those other forums? Oh yeah. Still trying to work out if Judyth did Lee or Harvey... or if the limo came to a stop.... or what color lipstick the Babushka Lady wore... and how many pixels a lovelady must have before you can call him a man... (I reserve the right to randomly go Dylan on the reservation...) | |
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John Mooney Member Posts: 48 | This has been a fascinating thread and I think I have got me head around most of it now. My understanding is that the "receipt" for 004451 was torn off by McWatters, signed with his badge number and handed in before he started driving the bus. This explains why it is unpunched and whole.The "receipt" was kept by an employee of the bus company as a souvenir. Some thoughts. The "cutter" is really a "ripper". I actually think it would be capable of angled cuts. In fact it must have for the numbers on the ticket to work. How would you indicate 1.45 for instance? I don't think Oswald had the ticket on him at the time of arrest. He was searched. Also he supposedly changed his clothes. Why would he keep a useless bus ticket? The ticket looks in remarkable condtion for me, is it creased in any way? It and the shirt had been through quite a scuffle at the Theatre. Did McWatters issue seven transfers for 004452 to 004458 before giving one to Oswald? Were there that many people on the bus would wanted to transfer? If you didn't want to transfer I presume you just paid and sat down - no ticket? | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | Bookout says transfer was taken from Oswald at time of arrest. How does Bookout know this? Oswald told him. So if HIS transfer was removed upon arrest at the theater then it would clear up why LHO said he left the TSBD and rode to his residence and asked for a transfer upon departure from the bus. And that officers at the time of arresting him took his transfer out of his pocket. This would be correct for Fritz and LHO to discuss his bus trip as Fritz would know from arresting officers he had a transfer in his pocket. (Beckley) Along the 'route' is there a need to swap LHO over to the Marsalis bus? Was there a problem with the Beckley bus? Were all the transfers gone? Haha Would not the Beckley bus be the first bus to enter ones head when an address on Beckley comes up....or ...was there a timing problem there? There seemed to be no f'in hurry to get to Oak Cliff by LHO even if he did jump on and off of buses and into cabs. It cost time at every juncture. Walking up and down Elm when your a wanted KILLER! Yeah I don't think they thought this out very well down at the WC headquarters. No wait he would blend in with all the other average white males. No wait he would stand out with his manic look, ripped shirt, wild hair. No wait he would blend in with every bum on every bus in Dallas. Short of a large package or a rifle no one would know LHO from Joe Blow. No one but Mary. Mary B., Bledsoe and Bledsoe. Question for Lee Farley, upon searching Oswald at the theater, his pockets would be felt, rummaged through, turned inside out. That is how a search is conducted especially a cop killer, yes as said by Lee Farley no razor blades would escape such a search. If one did, it would be bad for business, and you may end up getting another cop killed, or aiding the suspect to kill himself with a razor. So yes the first thing is to frisk and pull out pockets. Check them before putting a suspect in a car. Questions are who held the items from the intensive suspect search at the theater?... What were they? | |
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Terry Martin Moderator Posts: 1143 |
Greg, I was thinking precisely the same thing while I was reading this and the Purdy thread on BWF. Everyone keeps arguing the same things that have been argued for fifty years, it seems. And yet, at this one lone little place, some sanity seems to permeate the proceedings. I love this place! | |
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Greg Site Owner Posts: 2048 |
The Group W Bench comes through - always! | |
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Greg Site Owner Posts: 2048 | From Curry interview in the PM Saturday (exact time not known)  From Fritz interview, PM Saturday (exact time unknown but probably after the Curry i/v above)  | |
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- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Mon 15 Aug 2016, 7:43 am
| February 3, 2015 at 10:16 PM | Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply |
Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | Boyd says some interesting things about the property. Page 8 the search http//www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/pdf/WH7_Boyd.pdf A drawer with 'other stuff'. Oh that is rich!!But shells did not wind up on property inventory sheet that the transfer did. No recollection of taking the bracelet, Stern asks. Page 18 Boyd slid past issues like what did Oswald say by saying he was right next to Oswald so he did not take notes, but did not listen either. But did say 1026 N Beckley address was given withing the first five to ten minutes, before Hosty came into Fritz's office Boyd said Lt. Baker told him the man who shot Tippit is in the interrogation room. (WTH no mention of LHO being a JFK suspect) Let us not forget Scoggins works for the Dallas Transit Company just as Cecil McWatters does. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh3/pdf/WH3_Scoggins.pdf And Whaley works for: Mr. WHALEY. "City Transportation Company." Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for that company? Mr. WHALEY. 37 years. Not for that company, sir, but for the original owners, it started out. I have been in with that original company but all banded together in one cab company. Page 19 Scoggins says its the same company as Whaley's, same dispatchers, but Whaley works downtown where the main building is 610 Akard and Scoggins is out in Oak Cliff parked by a knocked down sign and a bush as his office... Shitty Transport...er I mean CITY Transport was same as Dallas Transit Company. Dallas Transit was controlled by Weinberg by '60 http://www.hawaii.edu/uhwo/clear/Pubs/RutledgeUnionism.html#P3 Dave Nate and Sydney Weinberg owners of Dallas Transit Company in Jack ruby's Club thanks to Schepps http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0040a.htm Press asked Wade if this is the first time Dallas Transit Company had ever been used as a getaway car!  classic.http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pdf/WH24_CE_2170.pdf LHO nearly gets job for Dallas Transit (page 6) http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh10/pdf/WH10_Statman.pdf | |
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John Mooney Member Posts: 48 | The horse's mouth and his ticket cutter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCyC1J9G0rE "The only two transfers I put out coming through town"...........!!!!!!!!! | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 |
Yes John! Pay fare and sit down, no transfer included. Or pay fare ask for either a transfer or a shoppers transfer and sit down. I am asking how Cecil cut a transfer for Ball to show 10:30. 1:45 is a ski slope. 45* angle... Hang on. Urban Dictionary: philadelphia bus transfer www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?...bus+transfer Oh never mind!! Okay here it is:  | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | Mr Farley was correct and many examples are out there. It makes sense if it is torn at 1:45 you could not re-tear it to add time.... But if it was torn at 12:45 you could re-tear it to 1:00  | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | http://www.ebay.com/itm/Houston-Transit-Co-transfer-Houston-TX-1948-/371235767012?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item566f6042e4&rmvSB=true Possibility exists LHO was issued a transfer got off Cecils bus went to use transfer on another bus but transfer was not accepted. Therefore he would KEEP the transfer, pay the fare and bring the transfer to the office for reimbursement/correction. See below:  | |
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Hasan Yusuf Moderator Posts: 1411 | Still trying to work out if Judyth did Lee or Harvey. You mean you haven't heard, Greg? She did BOTH of them! One Oswald was simply not enough for the horny bitch. Sorry, but I couldn't resist not saying that. | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 |
Thank you John!!!!! OH CECIL!! You poor dumb bastard.  Transfer Booklet is seen in the correct position, front side up. So if he gave out two transfers as he claims vehemently then either 004452 and 004453 should be "Oswalds" transfer. (Notice he doesn't punch the transfer!) | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 |
F'in dying over here!!! | |
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- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Mon 15 Aug 2016, 7:54 am
John Mooney
Member
Posts: 48
Member
Posts: 48
  From the video. This is actually McWatters. He said he only issued one transfer before Oswald. So what really happened to 004452 to 004458? I think they found the booklet and took the top one after McWatters had issued other tickets later in the journey | ||
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 | "I think they found the booklet and took the top one after McWatters had issued other tickets later in the journey." YES!!! Or he gave out some to inbound riders before heading through downtown, and did give out only two downtown. Which would also leave 004459 on top. But without speculating, he gave out just two leaving 004454 on top. | |
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John Mooney Member Posts: 48 | I also think transfers were handed out on exit of the bus (as McWatters says in the video). Setting the time for the ticket on entry in advance doesn't seem right if the bus is delayed for any reason. | |
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 | The problem here, fellas, is that we don't know what booklet 004459 came out of. McWatter and F. F. Yates are both on record saying that each driver would take a certain number of books of transfers with him each day and the front transfer bearing the number 01 or 51 would be taken with the drivers badge number on the back. Because the FBI, as far as we are led to believe, left it until March, 1964 to visit the Dallas Transit Company to request the transfer booklet information for Cecil McWatters the information, again we are led to believe, had been destroyed. So, for all we know, 004459 could have come from the transfer book off the bus McWatters was driving the evening of November 22nd when he was dragged off it and hauled into City Hall for 8+ hours. I'm sure there is a record of which bus he was driving that night in some of the police reports or interviews. Don't have the time right now to hunt them down. There is the faintest possibility that each driver took two books each day in synchronised order although we'd have a helluva job proving it and if they did take booklets in running order Cecil may have had booklets 004401 and 004451 with him and if so the 004451 booklet was from his second bus. Food for thought at least... ...but also a good reason and the only reason for the DPD to not hold onto the full booklets in McWatters' possession and go directly to Dallas Transit and demand the booklet identification transfers from the Supervisor there. | |
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John Mooney Member Posts: 48 | The drivers took as many booklets as they thought they needed, so it could have been any number and McWatters could have had 004451 and 004501. We don't know. I do know there is an apparent unexplained seven ticket gap between 004451 and 004459. | |
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John Mooney Member Posts: 48 | McWatters Testimony: "Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I left there that day on time because coming into town that day, I guess everybody done went to, down to, see the parade, I didn't have over four or five passengers coming into downtown." It was a quiet day for him. "Mr. BALL - After your dispatcher checked you in what time did you leave that corner of St. Paul and Elm? Mr. McWATTERS - Well, the best I can remember I don't recall even picking up a passenger there. I think I discharged one lady passenger there on that, to the best I can recall, because I remember that I had, when I crossed Field Street, I think I had five passengers on my bus. " How many transfers were supposedly issued? | |
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 |
You first need to find out what time McWatters shift started and whether the Lakewood to Marsalis run where the phantom Oswald appeared was his first of the day. From memory it wasn't, but checking may give an explanation of the seven ticket gap. I haven't time to double check but I'm sure he'd already completed a run from Marsalis to downtown up to Lakewood (Munger Avenue) before turning around in the other direction. I agree with you that "we don't know" about the booklets but there are lots of things we didn't know but now do after researching the heck out of them. What I do know is that there was only one reason for the following two things to not occur and that was to hide the sequence of transfer: 1. Full set or sets of transfer booklets not taken from Cecil McWatters during the time he was at City Hall 2. Receipts not taken from Dallas Transit Company that would have possibly then guaranteed which book the transfer came from It is these two things that did not happen (or did and was hidden) that makes me strongly suspect 004459 DID NOT come from McWatters original book of transfers during his daytime shift but instead came from a later book that he had with him at 6pm when he was dragged off the bus by Detectives. Other than Mary Bledsoe, not one person from that bus was looked for and given we were handed very good information from McWatters about the lady getting the train I find it very telling that she wasn't looked for and asked through the media to come forward. At the end of the day, if that woman did exist it was certainly not in the best interest of the "investigation" to find that transfer she allegedly had. | |
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Barto Moderator Posts: 1915 | Fascinating stuff fellas, thanks ever so much! | |
| -- _________________________________________________________________________________ Prayer Man The Movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0B8JhOe3KU Prayer Man website: http://www.prayer-man.com/ Prayer Man on Twitter: https://twitter.com/PMisLeeOswald
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John Mooney Member Posts: 48 | Reading McWatters testimony it is clear to me that the transfers are only issued on request when passengers exit the bus at the transfer point. In the case of this bus route that is Lamar Street. McWatters had the cutter already lined up for 1 o'clock but had not torn any off on that journey before Lamar street. He says so himself. If buses are delayed for any reason then he would readjust his cutter before the transfer point. "Mr. McWATTERS - I only gave two transfers going through town on that trip and that was at the one stop of where I gave the lady and the gentleman that got off the bus, I issued two transfers. But that was the only two transfers that were issued. " Only two transfers were issued. So what is the real story for 004452 to 004459? Lee, the Lakewood to Oak Cliff route was his first of the day, it's in his testimony. | |
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John Mooney Member Posts: 48 | More testimony (about the lineup, but mentions transfers): "Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; they were different ages, different sizes and different heights. And they asked me if I could identify any man in particular there, and I told them that I couldn't identify any man in particular, but there was one man there that was about the size of the man. Now, I was referring back, after they done showed me this transfer at that time and I knew which trip, that I went through town on at that time, in other words, on the Lakewood trip and just like I recalled, I only put out two transfers and I told them that there was one man in the lineup was about the size and the height and complexion of a man that got on my bus, but as far as positively identifying the man I could not do it. " | |
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 |
Just checked, John. He says his shift started at 11:52am. If the Lakewood to Marsalis trip was his first of the day then he must have entered the same wormhole that LHO kept falling into. Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I was assigned that day on the particular run from 11:52 until 2:27. He arrived at St. Paul & Elm at 12:36pm during his infamous trip and was bang on time. If Cecil wants us to believe it took him 44 minutes to travel from Munger Avenue to St. Paul & Elm then I'm just gonna have to pop out to one of my local dealers and get a bag of PCP. | |
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John Mooney Member Posts: 48 | He didn't necessarily start driving at 11.52 There was some admin to attend to first. Receipts and stuff. | |
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 |
Munger Avenue in the Lakewood area is less than five minutes away from St. Paul & Elm. In fact it is much less than five minutes. It is one block away from Gaston that was his main thoroughfare into downtown. The time of 11:52 I'm readin' as the start time of his route. It's too specific to be anything but. Best to get the timetables from Mary Ferrell | |
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 | You were right, John, and my medium to long term memory is faulty. Here is Cecil's time sheet. He would leave Lakewood at 12:11pm which was much further east than Munger. This got him to St. Paul & Elm at 12:36.  | |
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- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Mon 15 Aug 2016, 8:07 am
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
The media interview transcrips I posted upstream show that Curry as at Saturday PM, was under the impression that Oswald had made his escape in a station wagon driven by a dark complected male. Sometime after that on the same night, the information is corrected by Fritz... to the complete befuddlement of the media throng who keep asking about the station wagon but get no further resonse. Looking at the timeline offered up by Brussells in her "last words" piece... we see... the Roger Craig station wagon info coming in at the interrogation commencing at 4:45 on the Friday. Up to that point, nothing had been discussed about buses or any other form of getaway transport. At 6:30, Oswald is hauled off for the McWatters line-up just prior to which he is allegedly searched and a transfer found. At 7:10 he is "arraigned" on the murder of Tippit -- presumambly because with the aid of McWatters bus, they can now get him to the "altar" on time. The Interrogation commencing at 7:55 is where Oswald now "admits" his previous story wasn't quite true (what previous story? That he had caught a bus only? The station wagon?) and that he actually "took a bus, but due to a traffic jam, I left the bus and got a taxicab, by which means I actually arrived at my residence." Curry was obviously aware of the Craig information & the cops were obviously taking it seriously - at least until the Bledsoe phone call. That Curry was not aware of the change in story by Saturday PM is a bit surprising but must be the case. Meanwhile I'm back to the start. Oswald never had no dam transfer on him - the whole bus thing was caused by Bledsoe and Laughing Boy. Oswald was not on there. Moreover, it is made to appear that Oswald changed from saying he caught a bus all the way, to then admitting he caught a bus, but jumped off in traffic and caught a cab. Bullshit. The alleged change in story was from the station wagon to the bus... "that car belonged to Ruth Paine..." That is an admission that he got a lift in Ruth Paine's car that morning and/or got picked up by it after the assassination. I wonder how well-tanned Willie was? He certainly had time to pick Oswald up before driving to Austin and arriving at 7pm. The rest of this discussion is absolutely brilliant research and deconstruction... but it's giving me a damn migraine trying wrap my poor antipodean brain around all the detail! I'm still strugling with why 51 was signed on the back and handed in as a receipt prior to the bus leaving the depot... or even if I have that detail correct in my head... I do know a couple of bus drivers and I'm gonna chew there ears off about some of this.... | ||
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Paul Francisco Paso Administrator Posts: 729 | Sometime after that on the same night, the information is corrected by Fritz... to the complete befuddlement of the media throng who keep asking about the station wagon but get no further resonse. Greg I remember seeing this clip where Fritz just remains still and quiet wishing the reporters would STFU. I have been looking for it since but cannot find it. | |
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John Mooney Member Posts: 48 |
No problem Lee. I don't think Oswald had a transfer on him when arrested. But there's a million holes in the official story. | |
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 |
Looking back over the time sheet and I'm sat scratching my head completely confused. Anyone know what this thing is? What is it for? Who fills it in? Why? (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 378, for identification.) Mr. McWATTERS - This is a schedule, I will just say a bus schedule. Mr. BALL - That is for the Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger run? Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct. Mr. BALL - Run 1213. Is this the run schedule that was in effect on November 22, 1963? Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; that is correct. Before describing this as "just...a bus schedule" Cecil said "...that number there is my run number right here on my card." | |
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John Mooney Member Posts: 48 | I don't think it's an employee timesheet, I think it's a timetable that the drivers refer to so they get their timing right, | |
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John Mooney Member Posts: 48 | ... and.. you read down the "Lv" column and up the "Arr" column for the return journey. (then down the "Lv" column until 2.20pm (terminates?) | |
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- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Dallas Transit Tansfer Cont.
Mon 15 Aug 2016, 8:38 am
Terry Martin
Moderator
Posts: 1143
Moderator
Posts: 1143
So, the trip from Lakewood took exactly an hour and the return from Marsalis was also an hour. At least, when the buses did not have to slow down for traffic jams caused by assassinations and such. | ||
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 |  Is the above document confusing anybody else? | |
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Terry Martin Moderator Posts: 1143 | Not really, although it would be easier to follow if I used a map. The only confusion I found was in the middle of the second paragraph "...Market and Elm and Record and Elm." This should have ended the description of the downtown stops and started another paragraph with "This bus then turns south on Houston..." At the end it returns to its starting point at Main and Lamar and starts over from the top. At least that how it seems to me. (a frequent over-looker of the obvious) | |
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 |
Maybe I've been at this too long, Terry. The amount of time we have to spend to work out how a bleedin' transfer works and how it was cut is something new researchers should take into account before letting this case suck them in. Are we saying this bus had three separate routes? Route One - LAMAR STREET & MAIN STREET to CAMBRIA & ANITA - Route ends and bus starts route two Route Two - CAMBRIA & ANITA to PENTAGON & MARSALIS Route ends and bus starts route three Route Three - PENTAGON & MARSALIS to LAMAR STREET End of route three and begins route one again | |
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Terry Martin Moderator Posts: 1143 | Lee, It appears to be a three-prong route (Outbound to the NE on Main to Cambria/Anita, then turn around and go through downtown on Elm and continue to SW into Oak Cliff, turning around at Pentagon to return to Lamar Street) but it is actually one long route to cover points to NE and SW but passes through the downtown region twice. It practically retraces part of each outbound route on the return portion. Yes, it is obvious that Dallas loves to confuse everything, whether it has to do with the case or not! (Actually, many Postal routes follow similar patterns - going out and coming back - then repeating in another direction.) | |
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 |
Terry, Bear with me here okay and help me through this. Would a three pronged route have one bus number or different bus numbers? What do you think this bus number/s was/were given the evidence in the record? | |
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Terry Martin Moderator Posts: 1143 | From what I read here, I would assume the bus maintains the same number throughout the various portions of its route. Most of the buses in our area do as well. Not ALL do, however, as I know some who change the route # and destination marquee at the outbound terminus. Why do some change and others not? I have no clue. In the document, Mr. Snyder uses "Munger Bus Run No. 1213" in quotes as though he is responding to that portion of someone's question either from a verbal statement or another document we don't know. He replies that it is the route called Marsalis and has the number 30. It would seem it had the name Marsalis and #30 throughout the route. But again, as with other parts of this case, assuming anything can be very risky.  | |
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 | I'm just trying to understand as much about this as possible, Terry, because every now and again some detail will pop along that allows us to see things differently. The thing here is that this bus had two different numbers for the two very different parts of its route. The Pentagon & Marsalis to Lamar & Main AND the Lamar & Elm to Pentagon & Marsalis route was the number 30. The Lamar & Main to Cambria & Anita AND Cambria & Anita to Lamar & Elm was the number 23 bus. Two different bus routes with different numbers where the number would change at Lamar & Main or Lamar & Elm depending upon direction of travel.. I'm guessing the "run" is both parts of the route together which is defined as 1213? Not knowing much about the U.S. transportation system (especially in 1963) this thing is confusing the hell out of me but we can take to the bank the fact that the bus McWatters was driving down Elm Street at 12:36pm that afternoon was the number 23 from LAKEWOOD until it reached LAMAR & ELM when it became the numer 30 to MARSALIS. What does this mean? Probably fuck all. But there is something bugging the life out of me here and my intuition is telling me it has something to do with the bus McWatters was driving that evening when he was dragged off it. Don't know why - just a nag. Question: if I boarded McWatters bus at LAMAR & ELM (hence the #30 bus) heading toward MARSALIS and departed at Jefferson and requested a transfer what section on the transfer would McWatters punch? Would it still be punched LAKEWOOD even though I'm not technically on the LAKEWOOD (#23) bus? | |
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Terry Martin Moderator Posts: 1143 | It sounds as if the north-eastern part of the route was 23 and it became the Marsalis bus on return and changed to 30. I cannot imagine that the "23" segment of the route should have been called "Marsalis". It may mean fuck all, as you say, but I have more faith in your intuition. If something feels wrong about it, then I'll bet the reality stinks to high heaven. At the present, I seem to have exhausted my limited repertoire. I don't think McWatters drove any other routes... Maybe the location when he was pulled off might mean something. We just have to keep looking at it from other angles. Perhaps someone else has one of those different angles? Anyone?? | |
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Greg Site Owner Posts: 2048 | Like I said, I know a couple of bus drivers. I'll see what I can get from them. I know - different country - different era - but I'm willing to bet some things are pretty much unchanged re the way transfers are handled, the way routes are allocated and whatever else. But we need to be a bit wary I think, of the dreaded and pervasive Lunchroom Syndrome whereby sufferes feel the need to prove Oswald could not get to the 2nd floor in time for an encounter they don't believe happened... | |
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Terry Martin Moderator Posts: 1143 |
It is an interesting conundrum and worthy of debunking but I don't for a moment believe it has anything to do with Oswald. Perhaps it's need morphed from other part of the case. Who knows? All I am certain about in Dallas that day is that Kennedy was killed. Everything else is up from grabs. | |
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 | Map one shows a pink pin at bottom and a red pin off centre top. The pink pin is where the #23 bus would start from heading to LAKEWOOD. The red pin is the location of the Interurban Building which was the home of Dallas Transit in 1963. Distance between two pins is approximately 4 blocks.  Map two shows two pins. Pink pin shows Interurban building at 1500 Jackson. Red pin shows location that Cecil McWatters started his #23 bus route that day in Lakewood. Distance between pins 6.5 miles.  | |
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- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Mon 15 Aug 2016, 8:45 am
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Administrator
Posts: 921
My main question is quite simple. Cecil McWatters, whilst driving down Elm Street at 12:36pm on 11/22, was driving the #23 bus from LAKEWOOD to LAMAR. When he got to LAMAR & ELM that bus would cease being the #23 LAKEWOOD to LAMAR bus and would become the #30 LAMAR to MARSALIS bus. So is it not convenient that it is at GRIFFIN & ELM that the man he alleges knocked on his door and boarded the bus? GRIFFIN & ELM is ONE STOP before the bus number would change from #23 to #30 at LAMAR & ELM. This is why I would like to know if I boarded the #30 bus from LAMAR & ELM and asked for a transfer upon departing would I STILL get a transfer punched LAKEWOOD even though I haven't technically been on the LAKEWOOD bus? If the answer is YES, I would still get a transfer punched LAKEWOOD, then we can move onto other things, if the answer is NO, then what would be punched on the ticket if I boarded the #30 bus at LAMAR & ELM and asked for a transfer if I got off at JEFFERSON BOULEVARD?     | |
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- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Mon 15 Aug 2016, 8:49 am
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Administrator
Posts: 921
 Bus numbers are printed on the transfer next to the bus route. #30 is the Marsalis bus and #23 is the Lakewood bus. I know Ed recently got his diploma concerning this but I'm still confused as fuck.  It's usually procedural stuff like this, cuturally different to my own experiences, that screws with my brain. And I go back to my question; if I boarded the #30 bus at LAMAR & ELM why the hell would I be given a transfer suggesting I'd been on the #23 bus (LAKEWOOD) when I hadn't? | ||
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 | Norman Redlich, to a certain extent, knew the score:  Also, I can't help but notice that the original place for boarding the bus by the "man" contained in Cecil McWatters' original affidavit was Elm & Houston before he teleported backwards to Griffin & Elm. Griffin & Elm being the stop before the #23 bus became the #30 bus. | |
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Greg Site Owner Posts: 2048 |
You really are confused. You should know as principle of Sanity U, that the diploma you bestowed upon Ed was in "Dallas Transit System Circa 1963." It is the equivelant of being a general practitioner. Now if you want to specialize in the #23 or #30 bus, it's another 6 years full time study for the doctorate. | |
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Terry Martin Moderator Posts: 1143 | Lee: "I can't help but notice that the original place for boarding the bus by the "man" contained in Cecil McWatters' original affidavit was Elm & Houston before he teleported backwards to Griffin & Elm. Griffin & Elm being the stop before the #23 bus became the #30 bus." Probably when "the man" tleported back to the previous bus stop, he held fast to the transfer that was already in his hand. Really, this is standard fare in modern science fiction stories... even the ones from 1963. Now, as to your question about having a transfer from the #23 bus when you weren't on it... You wouldn't. But when you are dealing with evidence planted by people who haven't a clue what they are doing, it works just fine. It allows us to debate the evidence ad nauseum. Therefore, what you have done is proven the transfer is fake. Even though most of us assumed it was, the verification of fallacy is always of value. Now is there more that this might mean? Possibly, but it might require the extra six years that Greg is talking about. | |
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Faroe Islander Member Posts: 96 | In the pursue of a cop killer there is fair game, I have read Mcwitters testimony a couple of times, trying to read it like an actor with his "voice" and way of talking, I keep getting the impression that he makes a stop and is quitly saying WTF when he is shown the punched transfer, I think it is because that he knows that I would never punch 23 Lakewood when this guy is bording the bus at 30 Elm on the Marsalis route, but he plays laong as he has hears that this is the copkiller we are dealing with, I think that he would NEVER make such a mistake as it seems that he loves his bus and his work and he loves the oppertunity to get to tell the american viewer about the busses and then the case. I´m also certain that the buscompany would keep track of who got which tickets, simply because of the fact that then the driver could put some of the money from the tickets in his pocket, and they the company could never say who or when if they were not keeping track of the tickets, who hot which tickets and how many were sold when the shift was done. Maybe they used all the tickets from a book before starting a new book, and maybe the drivers were signing in the books as to how many tickets were sold ? | |
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John Mooney Member Posts: 48 | It is my understanding that THE transferpoint for the no 23 bus was Lamar. Transfers would not be normally issued after Lamar because there is no transfer point. That is why McWatters set the time on his cutter in advance to 1.00pm, within the 15 mins (plus his laziness) of his arrival at Lamar. There are references to transfer stops in various places and I think Lamar was the major one or at least one of them. I see the transfer system like the spokes of a wheel where the hub is near Dallas train station. You can't go back on the "wheel spoke" you came on. | |
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Ed Ledoux Moderator Posts: 1104 |
This is not the full route. Cecil Drove almost to Mockingbird lane. I actually blew up the tiny map with Cecils route he drew on the map. Last street is Anita. He say's so in his testimony. Earlier in the thread I went through the extra streets he covered. Stops were not covered for the area between Lakewood and Anita. This was where he actually started, Lakewood and drove NE away from town into the neighborhood. Turned anround up on Anita and followed the same track back to the Lakewood shopping center. Odd. He also says the end of the run is Lakewood shopping center where he does his sign changes/punches, etc. So why the run up to damn near Mockingbird? Nothing was asked about getting a transfer at Lakewood center, or before that if you hopped on at Anita if that is a stop. | |
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- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Mon 15 Aug 2016, 5:46 pm
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Norman Redlich, to a certain extent, knew the score:
Also, I can't help but notice that the original place for boarding the bus by the
"man" contained in Cecil McWatters' original affidavit was Elm & Houston before he
teleported backwards to Griffin & Elm. Griffin & Elm being the stop before the #23 bus
became the #30 bus.
February 5, 2015 at 9:56 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
I know Ed recently got his diploma concerning this but I'm still confused as fuck.
You really are confused. You should know as principle of Sanity U, that the diploma
you bestowed upon Ed was in "Dallas Transit System Circa 1963."
It is the equivelant of being a general practitioner. Now if you want to specialize
in the #23 or #30 bus, it's another 6 years full time study for the doctorate.
February 5, 2015 at 10:49 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Terry Martin
Moderator
Posts: 1143
Lee:
"I can't help but notice that the original place for boarding the bus by the "man"
contained in Cecil McWatters' original affidavit was Elm & Houston before he teleported
backwards to Griffin & Elm. Griffin & Elm being the stop before the #23 bus became
the #30 bus."
Probably when "the man" tleported back to the previous bus stop, he held fast to the
transfer that was already in his hand.
Really, this is standard fare in modern science fiction stories... even the ones from 1963.
Now, as to your question about having a transfer from the #23 bus when you weren't
on it... You wouldn't. But when you are dealing with evidence planted by people who
haven't a clue what they are doing, it works just fine. It allows us to debate the
evidence ad nauseum.
Therefore, what you have done is proven the transfer is fake. Even though most of
us assumed it was, the verification of fallacy is always of value.
Now is there more that this might mean? Possibly, but it might require the extra six
years that Greg is talking about.
February 5, 2015 at 11:15 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Faroe Islander
Member
Posts: 96
In the pursue of a cop killer there is fair game, I have read Mcwitters testimony a
couple of times, trying to read it like an actor with his "voice" and way of talking,
I keep getting the impression that he makes a stop and is quitly saying WTF
when he is shown the punched transfer, I think it is because that he knows
that I would never punch 23 Lakewood when this guy is bording the bus at
30 Elm on the Marsalis route, but he plays laong as he has hears that this is
the copkiller we are dealing with, I think that he would NEVER make such a
mistake as it seems that he loves his bus and his work and he loves the opportunity
to get to tell the american viewer about the busses and then the case.
I´m also certain that the buscompany would keep track of who got which tickets,
simply because of the fact that then the driver could put some of the money from
the tickets in his pocket, and they the company could never say who or when if
they were not keeping track of the tickets, who hot which tickets and how many
were sold when the shift was done.
Maybe they used all the tickets from a book before starting a new book, and maybe
the drivers were signing in the books as to how many tickets were sold ?
February 5, 2015 at 11:51 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
John Mooney
Member
Posts: 48
It is my understanding that THE transferpoint for the no 23 bus was Lamar.
Transfers would not be normally issued after Lamar because there is no transfer point.
That is why McWatters set the time on his cutter in advance to 1.00pm,
within the 15 mins (plus his laziness) of his arrival at Lamar.
There are references to transfer stops in various places and I think Lamar
was the major one or at least one of them.
I see the transfer system like the spokes of a wheel where the hub is near
Dallas train station.
You can't go back on the "wheel spoke" you came on.
February 5, 2015 at 7:21 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 4, 2015 at 8:10 AM
You were right, John, and my medium to long term memory is faulty.
Here is Cecil's timesheet. He would leave Lakewood at 12:11pm which was
much further east than Munger. This giot him to St. Paul & Elm at 12:36.
This is not the full route. Cecil Drove almost to Mockingbird lane.
I actually blew up the tiny map with Cecils route he drew on the map. Last street is Anita.
He say's so in his testimony.
Earlier in the thread I went through the extra streets he covered.
Stops were not covered for the area between Lakewood and Anita.
This was where he actually started, Lakewood and drove NE away from town into the
neighborhood. Turned anround up on Anita and followed the same track back to the
Lakewood shopping center.
Odd. He also says the end of the run is Lakewood shopping center where he does his sign
changes/punches, etc.
So why the run up to damn near Mockingbird?
Nothing was asked about getting a transfer at Lakewood center, or before that if you
hopped on at Anita if that is a stop.
February 5, 2015 at 8:50 PM
Administrator
Posts: 921
Norman Redlich, to a certain extent, knew the score:
Also, I can't help but notice that the original place for boarding the bus by the
"man" contained in Cecil McWatters' original affidavit was Elm & Houston before he
teleported backwards to Griffin & Elm. Griffin & Elm being the stop before the #23 bus
became the #30 bus.
February 5, 2015 at 9:56 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
I know Ed recently got his diploma concerning this but I'm still confused as fuck.
You really are confused. You should know as principle of Sanity U, that the diploma
you bestowed upon Ed was in "Dallas Transit System Circa 1963."
It is the equivelant of being a general practitioner. Now if you want to specialize
in the #23 or #30 bus, it's another 6 years full time study for the doctorate.
February 5, 2015 at 10:49 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Terry Martin
Moderator
Posts: 1143
Lee:
"I can't help but notice that the original place for boarding the bus by the "man"
contained in Cecil McWatters' original affidavit was Elm & Houston before he teleported
backwards to Griffin & Elm. Griffin & Elm being the stop before the #23 bus became
the #30 bus."
Probably when "the man" tleported back to the previous bus stop, he held fast to the
transfer that was already in his hand.
Really, this is standard fare in modern science fiction stories... even the ones from 1963.
Now, as to your question about having a transfer from the #23 bus when you weren't
on it... You wouldn't. But when you are dealing with evidence planted by people who
haven't a clue what they are doing, it works just fine. It allows us to debate the
evidence ad nauseum.
Therefore, what you have done is proven the transfer is fake. Even though most of
us assumed it was, the verification of fallacy is always of value.
Now is there more that this might mean? Possibly, but it might require the extra six
years that Greg is talking about.
February 5, 2015 at 11:15 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Faroe Islander
Member
Posts: 96
In the pursue of a cop killer there is fair game, I have read Mcwitters testimony a
couple of times, trying to read it like an actor with his "voice" and way of talking,
I keep getting the impression that he makes a stop and is quitly saying WTF
when he is shown the punched transfer, I think it is because that he knows
that I would never punch 23 Lakewood when this guy is bording the bus at
30 Elm on the Marsalis route, but he plays laong as he has hears that this is
the copkiller we are dealing with, I think that he would NEVER make such a
mistake as it seems that he loves his bus and his work and he loves the opportunity
to get to tell the american viewer about the busses and then the case.
I´m also certain that the buscompany would keep track of who got which tickets,
simply because of the fact that then the driver could put some of the money from
the tickets in his pocket, and they the company could never say who or when if
they were not keeping track of the tickets, who hot which tickets and how many
were sold when the shift was done.
Maybe they used all the tickets from a book before starting a new book, and maybe
the drivers were signing in the books as to how many tickets were sold ?
February 5, 2015 at 11:51 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
John Mooney
Member
Posts: 48
It is my understanding that THE transferpoint for the no 23 bus was Lamar.
Transfers would not be normally issued after Lamar because there is no transfer point.
That is why McWatters set the time on his cutter in advance to 1.00pm,
within the 15 mins (plus his laziness) of his arrival at Lamar.
There are references to transfer stops in various places and I think Lamar
was the major one or at least one of them.
I see the transfer system like the spokes of a wheel where the hub is near
Dallas train station.
You can't go back on the "wheel spoke" you came on.
February 5, 2015 at 7:21 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 4, 2015 at 8:10 AM
You were right, John, and my medium to long term memory is faulty.
Here is Cecil's timesheet. He would leave Lakewood at 12:11pm which was
much further east than Munger. This giot him to St. Paul & Elm at 12:36.
This is not the full route. Cecil Drove almost to Mockingbird lane.
I actually blew up the tiny map with Cecils route he drew on the map. Last street is Anita.
He say's so in his testimony.
Earlier in the thread I went through the extra streets he covered.
Stops were not covered for the area between Lakewood and Anita.
This was where he actually started, Lakewood and drove NE away from town into the
neighborhood. Turned anround up on Anita and followed the same track back to the
Lakewood shopping center.
Odd. He also says the end of the run is Lakewood shopping center where he does his sign
changes/punches, etc.
So why the run up to damn near Mockingbird?
Nothing was asked about getting a transfer at Lakewood center, or before that if you
hopped on at Anita if that is a stop.
February 5, 2015 at 8:50 PM
- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Tue 16 Aug 2016, 4:50 am
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
The problem here, fellas, is that we don't know what booklet 004459 came out of.
McWatter and F. F. Yates are both on record saying that each driver would take a
certain number of books of transfers with him each day and the front transfer bearing
the number 01 or 51 would be taken with the drivers badge number on the back.
Because the FBI, as far as we are led to believe, left it until March, 1964 to visit the
Dallas Transit Company to request the transfer booklet information for Cecil McWatters
the information, again we are led to believe, had been destroyed.
The only way we "know" what booklet it is from is due to 004459 having
a punch at Lakewood.
Sans Cecil punching a blank transfer for the authorities in the right spots to "show"
them how it worked, we must accept Cecil had his punch on him and was not asked
to give the punch to anyone that we know of.
Unless Cecil as he said pre-punched that book.
Therefore a transfer from that booklet is meaningless. It 'could' be torn or to show
1:00 at anytime, by anyone.
Only the tear at 1:00 is indicative of it being capable of being issued to LHO, he sure
didn't ride the bus in from Lakewood center going to Marsalis.
I agree John:
" I think it's a timetable that the drivers refer to so they get their timing right,"
That is why Cecil calls it a ""Bus Schedule"" since it when he is scheduled into and
out of stops not exactly a published bus schedule from Dallas Transit.
So at 11:52 is he is running up to Anita and spends 19 minutes driving through the
area below Mockingbird, before he Lv's Lakewood at 12:11?
February 5, 2015 at 9:13 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Ed Ledoux at February 5, 2015 at 9:13 PM
The problem here, fellas, is that we don't know what booklet 004459 came out of.
McWatter and F. F. Yates are both on record saying that each driver would take a
certain number of books of transfers with him each day and the front transfer bearing
the number 01 or 51 would be taken with the drivers badge number on the back.
Because the FBI, as far as we are led to believe, left it until March, 1964 to visit
the Dallas Transit Company to request the transfer booklet information for Cecil
McWatters the information, again we are led to believe, had been destroyed.
The only way we "know" what booklet it is from is due to 004459 having a
punch at Lakewood.
Sans Cecil punching a blank transfer for the authorities in the right spots to "show"
them how it worked, we must accept Cecil had his punch on him and was not asked to
give the punch to anyone that we know of.
Unless Cecil as he said pre-punched that book.
Therefore a transfer from that booklet is meaningless. It 'could' be torn or to show
1:00 at anytime, by anyone.
Only the tear at 1:00 is indicative of it being capable of being issued to LHO,
he sure didn't ride the bus in from Lakewood center going to Marsalis.
I agree John:
" I think it's a timetable that the drivers refer to so they get their timing right,"
That is why Cecil calls it a ""Bus Schedule"" since it when he is scheduled into
and out of stops not exactly a published bus schedule from Dallas Transit.
So at 11:52 is he is running up to Anita and spends 19 minutes driving through
the area below Mockingbird, before he Lv's Lakewood at 12:11?
Ed,
Looking at the words Cecil used during his testimony concerning this "schedule"
I find it somewhat odd.
When he hands over CE 378 to Joseph Ball he says:
Mr. McWATTERS - This is a schedule, I will just say a bus schedule.
The matter of what it was, when it was from, and how it was used was not broached.
"I will just say it is a bus schedule." Why use this phrase? Why does he "just say" it
is a bus schedule? What else couldhe have said it was? Just an interesting turn of
phrase for me...
In addition, not a single exhibit during McWatters testimony was deemed a McWATTERS
EXHIBIT. Each one designated a CE number but not specifically identified to his testimony
like many of the exhibits from other witnesses throughout their testimony.
Greg is right about one thing. We're trying to further prove something didn't happen that
we know didn't happen but there is so much in the testimony that still has rich pickings
as far as I'm concerned. For sure, the more I read McWatters' testimony the more I feel
sorry for him because he is just talking shit due to the fact that he is just making stuff
up out of thin air. They certainly had him over a barrel. Only Senator Cooper comes out
of this pile of excrement with any part of his dignity intact because if it wasn't for his
aggressive questioning we certainly wouldn't have Milton Jones being named during
the debacle.
Joseph Ball is a fucking disgrace of human being.
February 5, 2015 at 11:19 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Ed Ledoux at February 5, 2015 at 8:50 PM
Lee Farley at February 4, 2015 at 8:10 AM
You were right, John, and my medium to long term memory is faulty.
Here is Cecil's timesheet. He would leave Lakewood at 12:11pm which was
much further east than Munger. This giot him to St. Paul & Elm at 12:36.
This is not the full route. Cecil Drove almost to Mockingbird lane.
I actually blew up the tiny map with Cecils route he drew on the map.
Last street is Anita.
He say's so in his testimony.
Earlier in the thread I went through the extra streets he covered.
Stops were not covered for the area between Lakewood and Anita.
This was where he actually started, Lakewood and drove NE away from town
into the neighborhood. Turned anround up on Anita and followed the same track
back to the Lakewood shopping center.
Odd. He also says the end of the run is Lakewood shopping center where he
does his sign changes/punches, etc.
So why the run up to damn near Mockingbird?
Nothing was asked about getting a transfer at Lakewood center, or before
that if you hopped on at Anita if that is a stop.
I'm gonna get my damn diploma if it damn well kills me.
What are the numbers referring to in the mileage section? A.M. has him traveling
35.8 miles. Bullshit if he only made one run from LAKEWOOD to MARSALIS before
1PM. The distance from ANITA @ CAMBRIA in LAKEWOOD to PENTAGON @ MARSALIS
in OAK CLIFF is approximately 15 miles following his route give or take the odd mile.
They have his P.M. mileage down as 73.4 miles. Fuck that. There is no way these
numbers make any sense to me. I'm sure you can help me out here but I'm lost
on his PAY HOURS too.
WTF are 800 PAY HOURS?
February 5, 2015 at 11:30 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Colin Crow
Member
Posts: 262
It means an 8 hour day. 8 hours 00 minutes.
February 6, 2015 at 12:13 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Colin Crow at February 6, 2015 at 12:13 AM
It means an 8 hour day. 8 hours 00 minutes.
Cheers, Colin. Simple. However, he did not work 8.00 hours on this route. :/
The more I look at this 1213 "bus schedule" the more concerns I have.
We do still have the issue with the mileage because if McWatters finished on
this bus route at 2:11PM then he most certainly did not do 73.4 miles during
that afternoon and during his shift between 11:52 and 12:58 (let's say this
was his AM shift seeing as how he says everything on a transfer
up until 1:00PM was AM) he most certainly did not complete 35.8 miles during
ONE run from LAKEWOOD to the end of MARSALIS.
February 6, 2015 at 12:35 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
We could try and short-circuit years of intense study be going to the Dallas
Transit Company and asking them if they can shed any light on the evidence
taken by the commssion?
I have asked the two bus drivers I know. Unfortunately they both drive school
buses and don't do these types of runs. One did say he'll see what he can find
out for me, but I think he was talking about trying to get hold of company policies
and manuals, which probably won't help much here.
February 6, 2015 at 7:00 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 5, 2015 at 2:33 AM
Is the above document confusing anybody else?
Confusing no.
Annoying YES.
It is the 23. LAKEWOOD and 30. MARSALIS run.
There is a street it crosses called N. Munger Blvd.
(Munger Ave in downtown runs paralel to the route.
Munger ave nearly intersects Munger Blvd)
Munger is not a published run.
There is no reverse to a MUNGER run.
Marsalis is the reverse of Lakewood.
The reverse of all the other runs are listed.
Munger is not.
The only place Munger as a run exists is the timesheet Cecil provided.
V C Snider says it, the Munger run, is identical to the 30 Marsalis run.
On Cecils sheet it shows "Marsalis-Ramona" and Elmwood-Munger"
So coud Elmwood and Munger must be reverse. Not so, I found Elmwood map and
it has no reverse run like all the others.
Munger is an fictitious run name, in that the Lakewood-Marsalis run goes to the
Munger Place district around Munger Blvd between Gaston and Columbia.
http://mungerplace.com/
February 6, 2015 at 10:22 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 4, 2015 at 9:15 AM
John Mooney at February 4, 2015 at 8:41 AM
Lee Farley at February 4, 2015 at 8:10 AM
You were right, John, and my medium to long term memory is faulty.
Here is Cecil's time sheet. He would leave Lakewood at 12:11pm which was
much further east than Munger. This got him to St. Paul & Elm at 12:36.
No problem Lee.
I don't think Oswald had a transfer on him when arrested.
But there's a million holes in the official story.
Looking back over the time sheet and I'm sat scratching my head completely confused.
Anyone know what this thing is? What is it for? Who fills it in? Why?
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 378, for identification.)
Mr. McWATTERS - This is a schedule, I will just say a bus schedule.
Mr. BALL - That is for the Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger run?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.
Mr. BALL - Run 1213. Is this the run schedule that was in effect on November 22, 1963?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; that is correct.
Before describing this as "just...a bus schedule" Cecil said "...
that number there is my run number right here on my card."
This is a time sheet Cecil would fill out and hand in.
Does the mileage work out....lets see?
He drives Lamar to BRENDENWOOD (not Endenwood, no such st.) 5.2 miles and 15min
Proceeds to Wendover, 2.3 miles
To Ellsworth 1.5 miles
WEST (not East) to Cambria .4miles
North to Anita and back to Sperry .3 miles
Sperry to Gaston 1.9 miles
Lakewood to Lamar 4.8 miles
about 17 miles for the trip.
(NOTE: when Cecil leaves to go on the
run he has to drive to lakewood, this is about ten miles, and there is more
than 17 miles in the run as that is me using maps to estimate mileages,
so he does do about 35miles. If his first "run" from Lakewood to Marsalis, then
is actually 25 miles not counting the drive to lakewood then the other 3/4
of the days runs should = 75miles. This then makes sense from a
mileage perspective. ~Ed)
He calls it 35 miles....which is exactly double! So he drives it twice?
(See my note above)
He then does his PM routes from Lakewood Shopping Center to downtown
and then south to Pentagon St. and back to Lakewood center.
He writes down 75 miles.
Let me guess, the actual mileage is half of 75......
What does that mean other than the bus goes for another complete trip....
but that is not on his timesheet? His last stop was Paulus at 2:20 on the way
back in from Lakewood. Looks like an 'express' back, where he is not picking
up passengers along the way, except at the one stop.
Is this sheet filled out COMPLETELY for all his runs? Or does the run continue
same as prevoius columns in the timesheet. 2:20 is two hours from 12:20 his
first stop at Paulus.
Did the timesheet keep going after 2:20 Paulus?
Where did he go from Paulus?
Did Cecil kick everyone off at St.Paul and drive 1213 to the depot/bus garage?
He says he does another run on another bus.
McWatters finished his Marsalis St. bus run after 3:30 p.m., returning to his starting
point in Lakewood by the same route in which he left. He went home and spent
some time watching TV. It was at this time that he saw the face of Oswald
broadcast. If Oswald was on the bus, he was not then recognized by McWatters.
Towards the end of the afternoon he goes back to work - this time driving the
Piedmont line. The sun had already set when he came to the bus stop at Dallas
police headquarters at 6:10 p.m November 22, 1963.
McWatters is taken through the main entrance and up to the third floor. He even
sees Oswald in the hallway. (Weston, "Marsalis Bus No. 1213", The Fourth Decade,
March 1995 p. 7; paraphrasing an article by Dr. Jerry Rose "Double Agent
Unmasked: A reconstruction, The Third Decade, Sept. 1987 p. 13)
http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/24th_Issue/mcwatters.html
Interesting part is where it is written on the timesheet WATCH OUT FOR KIDS
So OakCliff -School (With Arrow to Marsalis box) at 2:35
What is he doing driving by the South Oak Cliff High School on Marsalis at 2:35
when the kids would be getting out of school?
It can not mean 1:11 at Marsalis look out for kids ...at lunch break...
too late for that...he is in the area around 1pm from his timesheet.
Did SOCHS classes end at 2:30-2:35?
SO!
At 3:30 he is finishing up AFTER doing another Lakewood Run!!
This fits the TIME and MILEAGE!!!
The timesheet should be filled out for FOUR columns and he Leaves Lakewood
at 12:11 is back at Lakewood and leaves again at 2:11 and he would be back
at Lakewood at 3:11 !!!
This is the problem with Cecil and his "Bus Schedule"......... Poor dumb Cecil
getting played or he is a player....I mean this second run took him to Police
Headquarters daily for what 30 years? I'm sure some of the cops would know
Cecil by name. Maybe Wells?
Working this backwards in my mind it has to be a call from Porter that gets the
DPD thinking of a bus ride
Taking the transfer at face value it can not be LHO's if he got off the bus
downtown as it should be torn 12:45.
The transfer supposedly found on LHO was torn 1:00 and good till 1:15
So LHO got his transfer at 1pm simply based on the physical evidence.
And that would rule out LHO from the Tippit murder. He can't be on a bus in
town getting a transfer AND shooting a police officer in Oak Cliff.
So there is a problem....authorities need to get Cecil to fudge the meaning of
the tear on 004459 at the 1pm mark
Up till 12:45 is AM said Cecil.
Cecil did not say 12:45 WAS AM!
He said up to.
Want me to F'in quote the be-atch!!!!
"we consider up to 12:45 a.m."
SO 12:45 could be torn and his pre punched PM transfers would be just fine!!!!!!!!!
Oh this is a good day tater!
February 6, 2015 at 4:25 PM
Moderator
Posts: 1104
The problem here, fellas, is that we don't know what booklet 004459 came out of.
McWatter and F. F. Yates are both on record saying that each driver would take a
certain number of books of transfers with him each day and the front transfer bearing
the number 01 or 51 would be taken with the drivers badge number on the back.
Because the FBI, as far as we are led to believe, left it until March, 1964 to visit the
Dallas Transit Company to request the transfer booklet information for Cecil McWatters
the information, again we are led to believe, had been destroyed.
The only way we "know" what booklet it is from is due to 004459 having
a punch at Lakewood.
Sans Cecil punching a blank transfer for the authorities in the right spots to "show"
them how it worked, we must accept Cecil had his punch on him and was not asked
to give the punch to anyone that we know of.
Unless Cecil as he said pre-punched that book.
Therefore a transfer from that booklet is meaningless. It 'could' be torn or to show
1:00 at anytime, by anyone.
Only the tear at 1:00 is indicative of it being capable of being issued to LHO, he sure
didn't ride the bus in from Lakewood center going to Marsalis.
I agree John:
" I think it's a timetable that the drivers refer to so they get their timing right,"
That is why Cecil calls it a ""Bus Schedule"" since it when he is scheduled into and
out of stops not exactly a published bus schedule from Dallas Transit.
So at 11:52 is he is running up to Anita and spends 19 minutes driving through the
area below Mockingbird, before he Lv's Lakewood at 12:11?
February 5, 2015 at 9:13 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Ed Ledoux at February 5, 2015 at 9:13 PM
The problem here, fellas, is that we don't know what booklet 004459 came out of.
McWatter and F. F. Yates are both on record saying that each driver would take a
certain number of books of transfers with him each day and the front transfer bearing
the number 01 or 51 would be taken with the drivers badge number on the back.
Because the FBI, as far as we are led to believe, left it until March, 1964 to visit
the Dallas Transit Company to request the transfer booklet information for Cecil
McWatters the information, again we are led to believe, had been destroyed.
The only way we "know" what booklet it is from is due to 004459 having a
punch at Lakewood.
Sans Cecil punching a blank transfer for the authorities in the right spots to "show"
them how it worked, we must accept Cecil had his punch on him and was not asked to
give the punch to anyone that we know of.
Unless Cecil as he said pre-punched that book.
Therefore a transfer from that booklet is meaningless. It 'could' be torn or to show
1:00 at anytime, by anyone.
Only the tear at 1:00 is indicative of it being capable of being issued to LHO,
he sure didn't ride the bus in from Lakewood center going to Marsalis.
I agree John:
" I think it's a timetable that the drivers refer to so they get their timing right,"
That is why Cecil calls it a ""Bus Schedule"" since it when he is scheduled into
and out of stops not exactly a published bus schedule from Dallas Transit.
So at 11:52 is he is running up to Anita and spends 19 minutes driving through
the area below Mockingbird, before he Lv's Lakewood at 12:11?
Ed,
Looking at the words Cecil used during his testimony concerning this "schedule"
I find it somewhat odd.
When he hands over CE 378 to Joseph Ball he says:
Mr. McWATTERS - This is a schedule, I will just say a bus schedule.
The matter of what it was, when it was from, and how it was used was not broached.
"I will just say it is a bus schedule." Why use this phrase? Why does he "just say" it
is a bus schedule? What else couldhe have said it was? Just an interesting turn of
phrase for me...
In addition, not a single exhibit during McWatters testimony was deemed a McWATTERS
EXHIBIT. Each one designated a CE number but not specifically identified to his testimony
like many of the exhibits from other witnesses throughout their testimony.
Greg is right about one thing. We're trying to further prove something didn't happen that
we know didn't happen but there is so much in the testimony that still has rich pickings
as far as I'm concerned. For sure, the more I read McWatters' testimony the more I feel
sorry for him because he is just talking shit due to the fact that he is just making stuff
up out of thin air. They certainly had him over a barrel. Only Senator Cooper comes out
of this pile of excrement with any part of his dignity intact because if it wasn't for his
aggressive questioning we certainly wouldn't have Milton Jones being named during
the debacle.
Joseph Ball is a fucking disgrace of human being.
February 5, 2015 at 11:19 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Ed Ledoux at February 5, 2015 at 8:50 PM
Lee Farley at February 4, 2015 at 8:10 AM
You were right, John, and my medium to long term memory is faulty.
Here is Cecil's timesheet. He would leave Lakewood at 12:11pm which was
much further east than Munger. This giot him to St. Paul & Elm at 12:36.
This is not the full route. Cecil Drove almost to Mockingbird lane.
I actually blew up the tiny map with Cecils route he drew on the map.
Last street is Anita.
He say's so in his testimony.
Earlier in the thread I went through the extra streets he covered.
Stops were not covered for the area between Lakewood and Anita.
This was where he actually started, Lakewood and drove NE away from town
into the neighborhood. Turned anround up on Anita and followed the same track
back to the Lakewood shopping center.
Odd. He also says the end of the run is Lakewood shopping center where he
does his sign changes/punches, etc.
So why the run up to damn near Mockingbird?
Nothing was asked about getting a transfer at Lakewood center, or before
that if you hopped on at Anita if that is a stop.
I'm gonna get my damn diploma if it damn well kills me.
What are the numbers referring to in the mileage section? A.M. has him traveling
35.8 miles. Bullshit if he only made one run from LAKEWOOD to MARSALIS before
1PM. The distance from ANITA @ CAMBRIA in LAKEWOOD to PENTAGON @ MARSALIS
in OAK CLIFF is approximately 15 miles following his route give or take the odd mile.
They have his P.M. mileage down as 73.4 miles. Fuck that. There is no way these
numbers make any sense to me. I'm sure you can help me out here but I'm lost
on his PAY HOURS too.
WTF are 800 PAY HOURS?
February 5, 2015 at 11:30 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Colin Crow
Member
Posts: 262
It means an 8 hour day. 8 hours 00 minutes.
February 6, 2015 at 12:13 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Colin Crow at February 6, 2015 at 12:13 AM
It means an 8 hour day. 8 hours 00 minutes.
Cheers, Colin. Simple. However, he did not work 8.00 hours on this route. :/
The more I look at this 1213 "bus schedule" the more concerns I have.
We do still have the issue with the mileage because if McWatters finished on
this bus route at 2:11PM then he most certainly did not do 73.4 miles during
that afternoon and during his shift between 11:52 and 12:58 (let's say this
was his AM shift seeing as how he says everything on a transfer
up until 1:00PM was AM) he most certainly did not complete 35.8 miles during
ONE run from LAKEWOOD to the end of MARSALIS.
February 6, 2015 at 12:35 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
We could try and short-circuit years of intense study be going to the Dallas
Transit Company and asking them if they can shed any light on the evidence
taken by the commssion?
I have asked the two bus drivers I know. Unfortunately they both drive school
buses and don't do these types of runs. One did say he'll see what he can find
out for me, but I think he was talking about trying to get hold of company policies
and manuals, which probably won't help much here.
February 6, 2015 at 7:00 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 5, 2015 at 2:33 AM
Is the above document confusing anybody else?
Confusing no.
Annoying YES.
It is the 23. LAKEWOOD and 30. MARSALIS run.
There is a street it crosses called N. Munger Blvd.
(Munger Ave in downtown runs paralel to the route.
Munger ave nearly intersects Munger Blvd)
Munger is not a published run.
There is no reverse to a MUNGER run.
Marsalis is the reverse of Lakewood.
The reverse of all the other runs are listed.
Munger is not.
The only place Munger as a run exists is the timesheet Cecil provided.
V C Snider says it, the Munger run, is identical to the 30 Marsalis run.
On Cecils sheet it shows "Marsalis-Ramona" and Elmwood-Munger"
So coud Elmwood and Munger must be reverse. Not so, I found Elmwood map and
it has no reverse run like all the others.
Munger is an fictitious run name, in that the Lakewood-Marsalis run goes to the
Munger Place district around Munger Blvd between Gaston and Columbia.
http://mungerplace.com/
February 6, 2015 at 10:22 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 4, 2015 at 9:15 AM
John Mooney at February 4, 2015 at 8:41 AM
Lee Farley at February 4, 2015 at 8:10 AM
You were right, John, and my medium to long term memory is faulty.
Here is Cecil's time sheet. He would leave Lakewood at 12:11pm which was
much further east than Munger. This got him to St. Paul & Elm at 12:36.
No problem Lee.
I don't think Oswald had a transfer on him when arrested.
But there's a million holes in the official story.
Looking back over the time sheet and I'm sat scratching my head completely confused.
Anyone know what this thing is? What is it for? Who fills it in? Why?
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 378, for identification.)
Mr. McWATTERS - This is a schedule, I will just say a bus schedule.
Mr. BALL - That is for the Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger run?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.
Mr. BALL - Run 1213. Is this the run schedule that was in effect on November 22, 1963?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; that is correct.
Before describing this as "just...a bus schedule" Cecil said "...
that number there is my run number right here on my card."
This is a time sheet Cecil would fill out and hand in.
Does the mileage work out....lets see?
He drives Lamar to BRENDENWOOD (not Endenwood, no such st.) 5.2 miles and 15min
Proceeds to Wendover, 2.3 miles
To Ellsworth 1.5 miles
WEST (not East) to Cambria .4miles
North to Anita and back to Sperry .3 miles
Sperry to Gaston 1.9 miles
Lakewood to Lamar 4.8 miles
about 17 miles for the trip.
(NOTE: when Cecil leaves to go on the
run he has to drive to lakewood, this is about ten miles, and there is more
than 17 miles in the run as that is me using maps to estimate mileages,
so he does do about 35miles. If his first "run" from Lakewood to Marsalis, then
is actually 25 miles not counting the drive to lakewood then the other 3/4
of the days runs should = 75miles. This then makes sense from a
mileage perspective. ~Ed)
He calls it 35 miles....which is exactly double! So he drives it twice?
(See my note above)
He then does his PM routes from Lakewood Shopping Center to downtown
and then south to Pentagon St. and back to Lakewood center.
He writes down 75 miles.
Let me guess, the actual mileage is half of 75......
What does that mean other than the bus goes for another complete trip....
but that is not on his timesheet? His last stop was Paulus at 2:20 on the way
back in from Lakewood. Looks like an 'express' back, where he is not picking
up passengers along the way, except at the one stop.
Is this sheet filled out COMPLETELY for all his runs? Or does the run continue
same as prevoius columns in the timesheet. 2:20 is two hours from 12:20 his
first stop at Paulus.
Did the timesheet keep going after 2:20 Paulus?
Where did he go from Paulus?
Did Cecil kick everyone off at St.Paul and drive 1213 to the depot/bus garage?
He says he does another run on another bus.
McWatters finished his Marsalis St. bus run after 3:30 p.m., returning to his starting
point in Lakewood by the same route in which he left. He went home and spent
some time watching TV. It was at this time that he saw the face of Oswald
broadcast. If Oswald was on the bus, he was not then recognized by McWatters.
Towards the end of the afternoon he goes back to work - this time driving the
Piedmont line. The sun had already set when he came to the bus stop at Dallas
police headquarters at 6:10 p.m November 22, 1963.
McWatters is taken through the main entrance and up to the third floor. He even
sees Oswald in the hallway. (Weston, "Marsalis Bus No. 1213", The Fourth Decade,
March 1995 p. 7; paraphrasing an article by Dr. Jerry Rose "Double Agent
Unmasked: A reconstruction, The Third Decade, Sept. 1987 p. 13)
http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/24th_Issue/mcwatters.html
Interesting part is where it is written on the timesheet WATCH OUT FOR KIDS
So OakCliff -School (With Arrow to Marsalis box) at 2:35
What is he doing driving by the South Oak Cliff High School on Marsalis at 2:35
when the kids would be getting out of school?
It can not mean 1:11 at Marsalis look out for kids ...at lunch break...
too late for that...he is in the area around 1pm from his timesheet.
Did SOCHS classes end at 2:30-2:35?
SO!
At 3:30 he is finishing up AFTER doing another Lakewood Run!!
This fits the TIME and MILEAGE!!!
The timesheet should be filled out for FOUR columns and he Leaves Lakewood
at 12:11 is back at Lakewood and leaves again at 2:11 and he would be back
at Lakewood at 3:11 !!!
This is the problem with Cecil and his "Bus Schedule"......... Poor dumb Cecil
getting played or he is a player....I mean this second run took him to Police
Headquarters daily for what 30 years? I'm sure some of the cops would know
Cecil by name. Maybe Wells?
Working this backwards in my mind it has to be a call from Porter that gets the
DPD thinking of a bus ride
Taking the transfer at face value it can not be LHO's if he got off the bus
downtown as it should be torn 12:45.
The transfer supposedly found on LHO was torn 1:00 and good till 1:15
So LHO got his transfer at 1pm simply based on the physical evidence.
And that would rule out LHO from the Tippit murder. He can't be on a bus in
town getting a transfer AND shooting a police officer in Oak Cliff.
So there is a problem....authorities need to get Cecil to fudge the meaning of
the tear on 004459 at the 1pm mark
Up till 12:45 is AM said Cecil.
Cecil did not say 12:45 WAS AM!
He said up to.
Want me to F'in quote the be-atch!!!!
"we consider up to 12:45 a.m."
SO 12:45 could be torn and his pre punched PM transfers would be just fine!!!!!!!!!
Oh this is a good day tater!
February 6, 2015 at 4:25 PM
- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Tue 16 Aug 2016, 10:05 am
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
As a famous football coach used to say..."played good... done fine"
And yes... it should be safe to say that the Porter Bledsoe call... which, unless I've
totally lost my way with this after several years worth of discussions on it (possible!),
was really just to relay his mother's run in with Milton Jones.
Prior to that, they had the station wagon as the only lead to the "escape".
February 6, 2015 at 4:48 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
In other words, it is before 12:45
February 6, 2015 at 5:04 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
John Mooney
Member
Posts: 48
If he ran the route twice (and it now seems likely), that could explain why more than
two transfers were issued from the ticket book. 004452 and 004453 first run... 004454
to 004458 second run.
I still contend they took the one off the top and called it Oswald's.
February 6, 2015 at 6:06 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
The moral of the story is never give up looking at these pieces of evidence.
They hold many secrets and I'm sure there's more to find.
Thanks for reviving this topic, Ed.
February 6, 2015 at 7:01 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Greg at February 6, 2015 at 4:48 PM
As a famous football coach used to say..."played good... done fine"
And yes... it should be safe to say that the Porter Bledsoe call... which,
unless I've totally lost my way with this after several years worth of discussions on
it (possible!), was really just to relay his mother's run in with Milton Jones.
Prior to that, they had the station wagon as the only lead to the "escape".
Thanks Greg!
YES! Reporting Milton Jones whom Mary mistook or mis-something for LHO a supposed
former tenant.
Yes can't have accomplices driving LHO away from a murder.
...although someone did drive LHO to the murder scene...
Another thing that bugged me was Cecil saying in the video that it was the DPD that
figured out the transfer was from him and his book of transfers...wouldn't Cecil be the
one to figure that out.
Seems he is laying any blame for such an id of the transfer being his and Oswalds is
solely a matter for the Police to determine.
"Police Identified The Transfer As The One um.., That They Got On Oswald When
He Was Arrested"
Cecil is saying the transfer he gave to the Muphy St rider is the one they got on Oswald
when he was arrested.
Not that they told him they took it from LHO a couple hours ago in the holding room
just before his last showup.
Dallas bus fare 23 cents for three mile radius of downtown
You can add a zone for 5 cents.
There is also a "shoppers bus" just downtown for 5 cents. (6 cents in summer)
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1168.pdf
Wish I could find those old route maps? I found them on a long nights search but
never bookmarked the tab. Don't know what the heck it was I was searching for
when I found them. They were Dallas bus routes showing all the routes listed on
the transfer and more!
They are large maps that you have to scroll down to follow the bus run.
Seem like they were able to be sized smaller but they had to load each time you
adjusted them.... very antiquated map display I'd say from the 1980's
They were old 60's or even '63 route maps.
They showed all the Named routes which did not include Munger. lol
Ramona, Lakewood, Elmwood, Vickery, Beckley, etc.
Could be helpful. Basically just showed routes by name, what the paired routes
were: ie Lakewood Marsalis or the reverse routes and route numbers.
February 6, 2015 at 7:41 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 6, 2015 at 7:01 PM
The moral of the story is never give up looking at these pieces of evidence.
They hold many secrets and I'm sure there's more to find.
Thanks for reviving this topic, Ed.
Thanks Lee!
Good catch on the exhibits.
I agree with our assesment of Cecil's statements, there are more to be gleened
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they stopped me right by the city hall there when I
come by there and they wanted me to come in, they wanted to ask me some
questions. And I don't know what it was about or anything until I got in there
and they told me what happened.
Mr. BALL - What did they tell you?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they told me that they had a transfer that I had issued
that was cut for Lamar Street at 1 o'clock, and they wanted to know if I knew
anything about it. And I, after I looked at the transfer and my punch, said yes,
that is the transfer I issued because it had my punch mark on it.
Hmmm,
How the heck would they know that, did the DPD run the transfer down to the
Dallas Transit Office between 4:05 and 6:15 and get Snider, Routt, Cook to compare
the punch and then give them Cecils name and next route. Then they go back to
DPD tell Wells whom has Dhority run out and grab Cecil?
Please explain timeline of the DPD figuring out transfer FOR Cecil , to me,....anyone?
I'm serious how did that part work officially?
Mr. BALL. After your dispatcher checked you in what time did you leave that corner of
St. Paul and Elm?
Mr. MCWATTERS. Well, the best I can remember I don’t recall even picking up a passenger
there. I think I discharged one lady passenger there on that, to the best I can recall,
because I remember that I had, when I crossed Field Street, I think I had five passengers
on my bus.
As you've pointed out this was Meagher's turning point where she knew Cecil did not
have Mary Bledsoe on his bus. At least for the earlier run as we now know he made
another run through town that day and at that time things would be roped off,
conversations would be different, etc as she describes.
She took the later run!!!!
She did take Cecil's bus, but later on, when she heard and saw what she witnessed out the
bus window turning on Houston, mixed with TV and news reports even later. She would
have boarded at 2:36pm at St. Paul and Elm. and been near TSBD by 2:50
What would have been at Houston and Elm at 2:50+????
photographer William Allen. This image shows Dallas Police officers on the north east corner
of the Texas School Book Depository on November 22, 1963. Police officers have
used rope and vehicles to separate the crowd from the building.
http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184805/
12:51, 190 (Sergeant S.Q. Beliah), We need some ropes here at Main and Houston.
We are getting a terrific crowd.
Dispatcher We are going to send a Fire Department Rescue Unit with a lot of rope
to that location, 12:54 p.m.
Mrs. BLEDSOE - "Oh, it was awful in the city, and then they had roped off that around
where the President was killed, shot, and we were the first car that come around
there, and then all of us were talking about the man, and we were looking up to see
where he was shot and looking---and then they had one man and taking him
already got him in jail, and we got----"Well, I am glad they found him."
This is around 2:50 guaranteed!!
Now wouldn't a old lady like Mary have a shoppers transfer redeemed in a store for
a free return ride? A ride she would take free on Marsalis bus at 2:36pm.
February 6, 2015 at 9:42 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
I have a niggle. Might be nothing more than a genuine error made based upon the
fallibility of human memory but it could be something quite different...
...because I've just re-read Roy Milton Jones' FBI statement and he states the bus
he was on that afternoon "...arrived at approximately 12:10PM or 12:15PM."
McWatters bus allegedly arrived at Milton Jones' bus stop outside the Capri
Theater at 12:36PM. That's a big time difference when waiting for a bus.
There was a bus due at the same stop just before 12:10PM that day which
would get to Houston & Elm prior to 12:15PM (the spot where McWatters originally
said Jones got on the bus!!!!!
Somewhat interesting.
Did McWatters bus initially get stopped on Elm Street because of the shooting
or simply because of the parade itself? Was he really driving the 12:40PM LAMAR
to MARSALIS BUS or what are the chances he was driving the 12:10PM
LAMAR to MARSALIS bus?
If it's the second one what does that do to our new narrative? Does it stay
the same or does it change anything? Pre-stamped transfers?
February 6, 2015 at 9:59 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Okay, slight change of direction.
Hypothetical scenario #1:
Roy Milton Jones gets on the 12:10PM LAMAR to MARSALIS bus at HAWKINS & ELM
or St. PAUL & ELM. The bus gets jammed in traffic as it slowly descends ELM St because
€it has been blocked for the parade. JONES gets off the bus 10 minutes later, realizing
the Presidential PARADE is taking place, the bus is going nowhere and he decides to
see it. He asks for a TRANSFER and he receives one with a LAKEWOOD punch cut to
the time of 12:30. and watches the parade. This is why he knew the President had been
shot in the temple and it is from JONES that McWatters later finds out the President
had been shot. Remember what McWATTERS said to the elderly lady (written in his
earliest affidavit) that if "she did not believe me to ask the man behind her that
he [Jones] had told me [McWatters] the President had been shot in the temple."
This giveaway line would change dramatically during McWatters WC testimony.
Once the parade and the shooting is over, rumours are circulating through the crowd,
MILTON JONES heads back to ELM St. and sees CECIL McWATTERS bus. He gets on
just before HOUSTON street (as per McWatters' same-day affidavit) and tells him
about the President being shot in the head.
Somehow the DPD department found Roy Milton Jones either Friday night or Saturday
and secured that transfer. Not difficult if he was a regular on the MARSALIS BUS
and McWatters remembered where he dropped him off (BROWNLEE on Marsalis).
Sherlock Holmes not required for this one.
Once the DPD has custody of the TRANSFER the quickly and easily change it from
a 12:30 TRANSFER to a 1:00PM transfer.
With this new frame read McWatters testimony and see if it enlightens any of it.
February 6, 2015 at 10:53 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Addendum to Scenario #1:
McWatters was kept at City Hall until after midnight on 11/22 while the DPD went
and secured Roy Milton Jones and the transfer.
We can see that when he was being interviewed McWatters was telling
Detective C. N. Dhority that he had let the guy off on Marsalis because
it is in his hadnwritten affidavit BUT IS CROSSED OUT:
February 6, 2015 at 10:57 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Scenario #1 Variation.
McWatters was driving the 12:10PM bus that Jones was on, before JONES quickly
departed asking for a transfer. Twenty minutes later he got back on the same
bus after the parade/shooting because the bus was sat in the same spot
(or had moved a block or two) for at least 20 minutes.
With this scenario variation the Lee Harvey Oswald character IS ALL Roy Milton Jones.
JONES got on the bus. Stayed on the bus for a few blocks. Asked for a transfer
and got off the bus. But the difference is JONES reboarded the exact same
bus after the parade.
McWatters himself said he was caught in traffic on Elm Street for 15-20 minutes
but this delay was always framed around the aftermath of the shooting when
the reality was he was possibly caught in the traffic for 15-20 minutes by the parade.
February 6, 2015 at 11:08 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
She's Got a Ticket To Ride... but she don't care.
Could be Cecil mentioned something to another passenger at 2:50, which Mary
heard as Cecil drove a guy a few blocks close to Lamar, whom got off and gave
him a transfer.
She would not know details.
Mr. BALL - Now, had the bus gone as far as Lamar Street, when Oswald got off?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes. No; I think before we got to Lamar Street.
Mr. BALL - How far?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well---
Mr. BALL - Close to Lamar?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes, close.
Mr. BALL - How close?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, I couldn't say.
Mr. BALL - Within a half block, or block?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No; within a block.
Mr. BALL - About a block from Lamar, you think?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Uh-huh.
Mr. BALL - It was approaching Lamar, wasn't it?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Uh-huh.
Interesting that the lot at 621 N. Marsalis ended up in Bill Knox's hands.
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/local-politics/20110628-john-wiley-price-bought-land-from-county_s-most-active-bail-bond-lawyer-while-serving-on-oversight-board.ece
What did Porter do?
Mr. BALL - When did you first notify the police that you believe you'd seen Oswald?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - When I got home, first thing I did I went next door and told
them the President had been shot, and he said, "Why, he has got killed."
Known telephone number of Ruby's / Al Schroll at 511 N. Marsalis is close to Mary's
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=521253
March/April 1962 Ruby and George Senator have been living at the Carousel Club
since November 1961. They move to 500 South Marsalis apartment, and Senator
stays there with Ruby until leaving in August 1962. Senator says that he worked
at the Carousel as a doorman from March until August 1962 Vol. 14, p. 188.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo/jfk9/hscv9g.htm
Other neighbors of Mary:
Paul M. Knight, Sr. 723 N. Marsalis
Elbert Maurice "Monk" Baker (DPD)
500 N. Marsalis
February 6, 2015 at 11:30 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
I think this thread has a reached a threshold where pinning is warranted.
The effort and results from Ed and Lee are outstanding.
Notwithstanding that others before us and beside us have contributed to shredding
the official case, the work done by ROKCERs stands alone at the forefront of
that body of work.
We have to get it to a wider audience. Pinning threads like this helps, however little
that may be. It is through our projects that we can make much bigger pushes.
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
As a famous football coach used to say..."played good... done fine"
And yes... it should be safe to say that the Porter Bledsoe call... which, unless I've
totally lost my way with this after several years worth of discussions on it (possible!),
was really just to relay his mother's run in with Milton Jones.
Prior to that, they had the station wagon as the only lead to the "escape".
February 6, 2015 at 4:48 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
In other words, it is before 12:45
February 6, 2015 at 5:04 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
John Mooney
Member
Posts: 48
If he ran the route twice (and it now seems likely), that could explain why more than
two transfers were issued from the ticket book. 004452 and 004453 first run... 004454
to 004458 second run.
I still contend they took the one off the top and called it Oswald's.
February 6, 2015 at 6:06 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
The moral of the story is never give up looking at these pieces of evidence.
They hold many secrets and I'm sure there's more to find.
Thanks for reviving this topic, Ed.
February 6, 2015 at 7:01 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Greg at February 6, 2015 at 4:48 PM
As a famous football coach used to say..."played good... done fine"
And yes... it should be safe to say that the Porter Bledsoe call... which,
unless I've totally lost my way with this after several years worth of discussions on
it (possible!), was really just to relay his mother's run in with Milton Jones.
Prior to that, they had the station wagon as the only lead to the "escape".
Thanks Greg!
YES! Reporting Milton Jones whom Mary mistook or mis-something for LHO a supposed
former tenant.
Yes can't have accomplices driving LHO away from a murder.
...although someone did drive LHO to the murder scene...
Another thing that bugged me was Cecil saying in the video that it was the DPD that
figured out the transfer was from him and his book of transfers...wouldn't Cecil be the
one to figure that out.
Seems he is laying any blame for such an id of the transfer being his and Oswalds is
solely a matter for the Police to determine.
"Police Identified The Transfer As The One um.., That They Got On Oswald When
He Was Arrested"
Cecil is saying the transfer he gave to the Muphy St rider is the one they got on Oswald
when he was arrested.
Not that they told him they took it from LHO a couple hours ago in the holding room
just before his last showup.
Dallas bus fare 23 cents for three mile radius of downtown
You can add a zone for 5 cents.
There is also a "shoppers bus" just downtown for 5 cents. (6 cents in summer)
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1168.pdf
Wish I could find those old route maps? I found them on a long nights search but
never bookmarked the tab. Don't know what the heck it was I was searching for
when I found them. They were Dallas bus routes showing all the routes listed on
the transfer and more!
They are large maps that you have to scroll down to follow the bus run.
Seem like they were able to be sized smaller but they had to load each time you
adjusted them.... very antiquated map display I'd say from the 1980's
They were old 60's or even '63 route maps.
They showed all the Named routes which did not include Munger. lol
Ramona, Lakewood, Elmwood, Vickery, Beckley, etc.
Could be helpful. Basically just showed routes by name, what the paired routes
were: ie Lakewood Marsalis or the reverse routes and route numbers.
February 6, 2015 at 7:41 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 6, 2015 at 7:01 PM
The moral of the story is never give up looking at these pieces of evidence.
They hold many secrets and I'm sure there's more to find.
Thanks for reviving this topic, Ed.
Thanks Lee!
Good catch on the exhibits.
I agree with our assesment of Cecil's statements, there are more to be gleened
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they stopped me right by the city hall there when I
come by there and they wanted me to come in, they wanted to ask me some
questions. And I don't know what it was about or anything until I got in there
and they told me what happened.
Mr. BALL - What did they tell you?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they told me that they had a transfer that I had issued
that was cut for Lamar Street at 1 o'clock, and they wanted to know if I knew
anything about it. And I, after I looked at the transfer and my punch, said yes,
that is the transfer I issued because it had my punch mark on it.
Hmmm,
How the heck would they know that, did the DPD run the transfer down to the
Dallas Transit Office between 4:05 and 6:15 and get Snider, Routt, Cook to compare
the punch and then give them Cecils name and next route. Then they go back to
DPD tell Wells whom has Dhority run out and grab Cecil?
Please explain timeline of the DPD figuring out transfer FOR Cecil , to me,....anyone?
I'm serious how did that part work officially?
Mr. BALL. After your dispatcher checked you in what time did you leave that corner of
St. Paul and Elm?
Mr. MCWATTERS. Well, the best I can remember I don’t recall even picking up a passenger
there. I think I discharged one lady passenger there on that, to the best I can recall,
because I remember that I had, when I crossed Field Street, I think I had five passengers
on my bus.
As you've pointed out this was Meagher's turning point where she knew Cecil did not
have Mary Bledsoe on his bus. At least for the earlier run as we now know he made
another run through town that day and at that time things would be roped off,
conversations would be different, etc as she describes.
She took the later run!!!!
She did take Cecil's bus, but later on, when she heard and saw what she witnessed out the
bus window turning on Houston, mixed with TV and news reports even later. She would
have boarded at 2:36pm at St. Paul and Elm. and been near TSBD by 2:50
What would have been at Houston and Elm at 2:50+????
photographer William Allen. This image shows Dallas Police officers on the north east corner
of the Texas School Book Depository on November 22, 1963. Police officers have
used rope and vehicles to separate the crowd from the building.
http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184805/
12:51, 190 (Sergeant S.Q. Beliah), We need some ropes here at Main and Houston.
We are getting a terrific crowd.
Dispatcher We are going to send a Fire Department Rescue Unit with a lot of rope
to that location, 12:54 p.m.
Mrs. BLEDSOE - "Oh, it was awful in the city, and then they had roped off that around
where the President was killed, shot, and we were the first car that come around
there, and then all of us were talking about the man, and we were looking up to see
where he was shot and looking---and then they had one man and taking him
already got him in jail, and we got----"Well, I am glad they found him."
This is around 2:50 guaranteed!!
Now wouldn't a old lady like Mary have a shoppers transfer redeemed in a store for
a free return ride? A ride she would take free on Marsalis bus at 2:36pm.
February 6, 2015 at 9:42 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
I have a niggle. Might be nothing more than a genuine error made based upon the
fallibility of human memory but it could be something quite different...
...because I've just re-read Roy Milton Jones' FBI statement and he states the bus
he was on that afternoon "...arrived at approximately 12:10PM or 12:15PM."
McWatters bus allegedly arrived at Milton Jones' bus stop outside the Capri
Theater at 12:36PM. That's a big time difference when waiting for a bus.
There was a bus due at the same stop just before 12:10PM that day which
would get to Houston & Elm prior to 12:15PM (the spot where McWatters originally
said Jones got on the bus!!!!!
Somewhat interesting.
Did McWatters bus initially get stopped on Elm Street because of the shooting
or simply because of the parade itself? Was he really driving the 12:40PM LAMAR
to MARSALIS BUS or what are the chances he was driving the 12:10PM
LAMAR to MARSALIS bus?
If it's the second one what does that do to our new narrative? Does it stay
the same or does it change anything? Pre-stamped transfers?
February 6, 2015 at 9:59 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Okay, slight change of direction.
Hypothetical scenario #1:
Roy Milton Jones gets on the 12:10PM LAMAR to MARSALIS bus at HAWKINS & ELM
or St. PAUL & ELM. The bus gets jammed in traffic as it slowly descends ELM St because
€it has been blocked for the parade. JONES gets off the bus 10 minutes later, realizing
the Presidential PARADE is taking place, the bus is going nowhere and he decides to
see it. He asks for a TRANSFER and he receives one with a LAKEWOOD punch cut to
the time of 12:30. and watches the parade. This is why he knew the President had been
shot in the temple and it is from JONES that McWatters later finds out the President
had been shot. Remember what McWATTERS said to the elderly lady (written in his
earliest affidavit) that if "she did not believe me to ask the man behind her that
he [Jones] had told me [McWatters] the President had been shot in the temple."
This giveaway line would change dramatically during McWatters WC testimony.
Once the parade and the shooting is over, rumours are circulating through the crowd,
MILTON JONES heads back to ELM St. and sees CECIL McWATTERS bus. He gets on
just before HOUSTON street (as per McWatters' same-day affidavit) and tells him
about the President being shot in the head.
Somehow the DPD department found Roy Milton Jones either Friday night or Saturday
and secured that transfer. Not difficult if he was a regular on the MARSALIS BUS
and McWatters remembered where he dropped him off (BROWNLEE on Marsalis).
Sherlock Holmes not required for this one.
Once the DPD has custody of the TRANSFER the quickly and easily change it from
a 12:30 TRANSFER to a 1:00PM transfer.
With this new frame read McWatters testimony and see if it enlightens any of it.
February 6, 2015 at 10:53 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Addendum to Scenario #1:
McWatters was kept at City Hall until after midnight on 11/22 while the DPD went
and secured Roy Milton Jones and the transfer.
We can see that when he was being interviewed McWatters was telling
Detective C. N. Dhority that he had let the guy off on Marsalis because
it is in his hadnwritten affidavit BUT IS CROSSED OUT:
February 6, 2015 at 10:57 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Scenario #1 Variation.
McWatters was driving the 12:10PM bus that Jones was on, before JONES quickly
departed asking for a transfer. Twenty minutes later he got back on the same
bus after the parade/shooting because the bus was sat in the same spot
(or had moved a block or two) for at least 20 minutes.
With this scenario variation the Lee Harvey Oswald character IS ALL Roy Milton Jones.
JONES got on the bus. Stayed on the bus for a few blocks. Asked for a transfer
and got off the bus. But the difference is JONES reboarded the exact same
bus after the parade.
McWatters himself said he was caught in traffic on Elm Street for 15-20 minutes
but this delay was always framed around the aftermath of the shooting when
the reality was he was possibly caught in the traffic for 15-20 minutes by the parade.
February 6, 2015 at 11:08 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
She's Got a Ticket To Ride... but she don't care.
Could be Cecil mentioned something to another passenger at 2:50, which Mary
heard as Cecil drove a guy a few blocks close to Lamar, whom got off and gave
him a transfer.
She would not know details.
Mr. BALL - Now, had the bus gone as far as Lamar Street, when Oswald got off?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes. No; I think before we got to Lamar Street.
Mr. BALL - How far?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well---
Mr. BALL - Close to Lamar?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes, close.
Mr. BALL - How close?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, I couldn't say.
Mr. BALL - Within a half block, or block?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No; within a block.
Mr. BALL - About a block from Lamar, you think?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Uh-huh.
Mr. BALL - It was approaching Lamar, wasn't it?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Uh-huh.
Interesting that the lot at 621 N. Marsalis ended up in Bill Knox's hands.
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/local-politics/20110628-john-wiley-price-bought-land-from-county_s-most-active-bail-bond-lawyer-while-serving-on-oversight-board.ece
What did Porter do?
Mr. BALL - When did you first notify the police that you believe you'd seen Oswald?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - When I got home, first thing I did I went next door and told
them the President had been shot, and he said, "Why, he has got killed."
Known telephone number of Ruby's / Al Schroll at 511 N. Marsalis is close to Mary's
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=521253
March/April 1962 Ruby and George Senator have been living at the Carousel Club
since November 1961. They move to 500 South Marsalis apartment, and Senator
stays there with Ruby until leaving in August 1962. Senator says that he worked
at the Carousel as a doorman from March until August 1962 Vol. 14, p. 188.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo/jfk9/hscv9g.htm
Other neighbors of Mary:
Paul M. Knight, Sr. 723 N. Marsalis
Elbert Maurice "Monk" Baker (DPD)
500 N. Marsalis
February 6, 2015 at 11:30 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
I think this thread has a reached a threshold where pinning is warranted.
The effort and results from Ed and Lee are outstanding.
Notwithstanding that others before us and beside us have contributed to shredding
the official case, the work done by ROKCERs stands alone at the forefront of
that body of work.
We have to get it to a wider audience. Pinning threads like this helps, however little
that may be. It is through our projects that we can make much bigger pushes.
- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Tue 16 Aug 2016, 5:57 pm
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 6, 2015 at 9:59 PM
I have a niggle. Might be nothing more than a genuine error made based upon
the fallibility of human memory but it could be something quite different...
...because I've just re-read Roy Milton Jones' FBI statement and he states the bus
he was on that afternoon "...arrived at approximately 12:10PM or 12:15PM."
McWatters bus allegedly arrived at Milton Jones' bus stop outside the Capri Theater
at 12:36PM. That's a big time difference when waiting for a bus. There was a bus due
at the same stop just before 12:10PM that day which would get to Houston & Elm
prior to 12:15PM (the spot where McWatters originally said Jones got on the bus!!!!!
Somewhat interesting.
Did McWatters bus initially get stopped on Elm Street because of the shooting or
simply because of the parade itself? Was he really driving the 12:40PM LAMAR to
MARSALIS BUS or what are the chances he was driving the 12:10PM LAMAR
to MARSALIS bus?
If it's the second one what does that do to our new narrative? Does it stay
the same or does it change anything? Pre-stamped transfers?
Good show Lee!!
Lets see what I can offer.
Jones got to the theater and he was waiting for the bus.
He said about 12:15 Cecil showed up.
But Cecil would wait here as usual if early.
He would KILL A MINUTE until about 12:35 and drive the half-block to St.Paul
and Elm where the bus dispatcher was timing him.
Mr. BALL - Were you ahead of your schedule?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I stopped about a block before now, just a block before
we get to St. Paul, there is a big theater there, and it has all loading zones, no
parking there and a lot of times if we are a minute or two ahead of our schedule
when we pull in in front of this theater before we get there in time, in other words,
we kill a minute.
Mr. BALL - What did you do this day?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I was a little ahead of my schedule and I killed about a minute,
I guess, before I went to cross St. Paul Street.
Mr. BALL - After your dispatcher checked you in what time did you leave that corner of
St. Paul and Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, the best I can remember I don't recall even picking up a passenger
there. I think I discharged one lady passenger there on that, to the best I can recall,
because I remember that I had, when I crossed Field Street, I think I had five
passengers on my bus.
Mr. BALL - Well then, back to *the question, what time did you leave that day, leave
Elm and St. Paul?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I would have to say I left there around, in other words, 12:36
because I know I was on good time when I come in there.
Cecil is early that afternoon, I would imagine most BUS RIDERS had already made their
way to parade route areas or downtown, and most shoppers would too. So mostly
empty stops along the inbound. Quick stops. Five passengers perhaps inbound.
He kills time at the Theater with the other early drivers if they are at the theater too
'killing a minute.'
He would need to be back on the bus and heading to St Paul by 12:35. But we don't
know whom the dispatcher was and if he marked up Cecil for being early or late.
Evidence submitted, On Time.
Passengers would sit and wait.
Passengers would be able to board but would not need to pay fare to Cecil, in his
presence, but the money better be in the receptacle if you boarded and driver was off the
bus. He can see number of passengers whom boarded and your two dimes and three
pennies would be proof of payment.
If your Milton Jones and the bus is empty of even a driver you could enter the bus,
pay the fare and take a seat. driver would board check the receptacle for the right
amount of change and let it drop into the collection bin and pull onto Elm from the
theater toward St.Paul and the waiting dispatcher.
Mr. BALL - Do you think he did anything, did he write anything up on you on that day?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; the guy that we have down there now, if you are ahead of
schedule he will come out, in other words, because he stands on the corner all the time,
and if you are a minute or two ahead of your schedule he will come out and if
nothing else, converse with you for a minute or two to see that you leave it on time
and very seldom, I mean, if ever--of course, a report goes in on you, it goes
against your record.
Mr. BALL - In other words, if he did make a record it would be by way of a reprimand to you?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Could Milton's times be off by 10 minutes. Yes it is likely.
Could Elmer S. Blackmon be this dispatcher? https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11640&relPageId=222
Blackmon clan deserves a whole thread. Thanks to Kimbrough!
Anyways ...Milton would get on Cecils parked bus....and wait.
Cecil could take a smoke break or use a restroom nearby, chat it up with the
other drivers for a bit.
What did Jones say?
"He said that upon entering the bus he sat in the first seat, facing forward on
the curb side of the bus and was alone."
No one, not even the driver? He was alone? No other passengers on the bus or
was he alone in his seat?
To me he is ALONE on a parked bus.
Cecil after his break would drive to St.Paul and then about four blocks from
Houston get stopped completely in traffic.
Cecil is asked:
Mr. BALL - Had you heard any sirens before you got to St. Paul and Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
He is not asked when and where he did hear sirens...thanks Ball.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
As I left Field Street, I pulled out into the, in other words, the first lane of
traffic and traffic was beginning to back up then; in other words, it was blocked
further down the street, and after I pulled out in it for a short distance there I
come to a complete stop, and when I did, someone come up and beat on the
door of the bus, and that is about even with Griffin Street.
In other words, it is a street that dead ends into Elm Street which there is no
bus stop at this street, because I stopped across Field Street in the middle of
the intersection and it is just a short distance onto Griffin Street, and that is
when someone, a man, came up and knocked on the door of the bus, and I
opened the door of the bus and he got on.
Mr. BALL - You were beyond Field and before you got to Griffin?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right. It was along about even with Griffin Street before
I was stopped in the traffic.
Mr. BALL - And that is about seven or eight blocks from the Texas Book
Depository Building, isn't it?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. It would be seven, I would say that is seven, it
would be about seven blocks.
Lee is correct, this stoppage is due to the motorcade coming through, and before
12:30 the lanes on Elm would be stopped.
The whole motorcade, press buses, etc would go through Houston intersection
after the shots were fired.
For Cecil traffic would begin to back up and by 12:36 he would be pulling out
into Elm street traffic which has been stopped for several minutes pre-and -post
motorcade. Some of this traffic was stopped previously at Harwood and Elm till
the motorcade went by. It would be piled up again down Elm street before Houston.
Besides that the WC timing is suspect to walk seven blocks after 12:35
(WC used 3 minutes after assassination? oy vey Vickie Adams and Baker)
and be where and when Cecil would need to be at that juncture in his
trip/schedule to pick up Oswald.
7 blocks in less than five minutes. WC used 6 1/2 averaged minutes for
the seven block 'walk'.
I see DPD directing traffic, Barnett, Smith and Smith? Intersection looks
pretty messed up....
The intersection East of Elm and Houston was vehicle free.
No cars waiting behind the parade watchers strung across the Elm St. intersection.
Did DPD stop traffic before Houston on Elm? Its just odd to to see no
vehicles behind the people! Seems like they could stop traffic from coming across Record.
Food for thought.
So it is for both reasons of the Parade and Shooting Cecil would be tied up in
traffic...and at Houston and Elm the Parade and Shooting were synonymous.
I don't see how we can put Jones on an earlier bus and it be Cecil's 1213 also.
Too much doesn't fit.
Posting this so its not lost by bad keystroke or power outage and I will
continue reply.
Question:
In Cecil's showup did they have each man step forward and say "Transfer Please"????
February 7, 2015 at 2:50 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 6, 2015 at 10:57 PM
Addendum to Scenario #1:
McWatters was kept at City Hall until after midnight on 11/22 while the
DPD went and secured Roy Milton Jones and the transfer.
We can see that when he was being interviewed McWatters was telling
Detective C. N. Dhority that he had let the guy off on Marsalis because it is
in his hadnwritten affidavit BUT IS CROSSED OUT:
WHY IS 004459 crossed out?
February 7, 2015 at 2:51 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
Cecil is early that afternoon, I would imagine most BUS RIDERS had already made
their way to parade route areas or downtown, and most shoppers would too.
So mostly empty stops along the inbound. Quick stops. Five passengers perhaps inbound.
Milton Jones sez about 15 passengers... after reading Jones' again...
nothing seems to match up.
Is the female Jones has leaving by the back door the same lady that McWatters
has getting a transfer on her way out? Sure sounds like cos Jones has his "Oswald"
leaving just after her via the front door. So if it's the same lady, how does that work?
Did she go up to McWatters, get a transfer then ask him to open the back ddor for her?
And what of Jones' claims that two cops came on board and questioned everyone?
The word "police" is mentioned 26 times in McWatters' testimony, yet not once in
reference to any getting on board and questioning people.
Going through McWatters' testimony another thing jumped out - and Lee has alluded
to it already - it is bleedingly and agonisingly obvious that Cooper doesn't believe there
was another man on that bus - not a word of it. Which means either both McWatters
and Jones are lying, or (more likely?) everything that is stated by Bledsoe, McWatters
and Jones more or less happened, but not on the same trip? The impression I'm starting
to get is similar the lunchroom encounter fiasco where real events have been merged
to form a brand new, but totally fanricated event.
Or something like that.
February 7, 2015 at 5:07 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 6, 2015 at 11:08 PM
Scenario #1 Variation.
McWatters was driving the 12:10PM bus that Jones was on, before JONES quickly
departed asking for a transfer. Twenty minutes later he got back on the same bus
after the parade/shooting because the bus was sat in the same spot
(or had moved a block or two) for at least 20 minutes.
With this scenario variation the Lee Harvey Oswald character IS ALL Roy Milton Jones.
JONES got on the bus. Stayed on the bus for a few blocks.
Asked for a transfer and got off the bus.
But the difference is JONES re-boarded the exact same bus after the parade.
McWatters himself said he was caught in traffic on Elm Street for 15-20
minutes but this delay was always framed around the aftermath of the shooting
when the reality was he was possibly caught in the traffic for 15-20
minutes by the parade.
In this scenario Cecil would have possesion of the transfer he gave to Jones
and Jones gave back to cecil. (in pristine condition)
Cecil and that transfer would be pretty familiar with each other by then.
We do not know from evidence presented what would happen with a transfer
given to a driver.
He should logically keep it and turn it in to the office, perhaps with
that days/weeks timesheet.
I think he would have to turn it in sooner than later, his supervisor needing
the transfers if there were a complaint called in. I think at end of run/s @ 3:30ish.
Question: Could officers have gotten a transfer from the shirt LHO changed out
of at time of Beckley search at 3pm? (If LHO did change shirts his transfer could
be there at Beckley, in the drawer in the shirt pocket just as LHO said, and would
back up LHO's story of a bus ride home and changed clothes)
At 2:40 PM, W.E. Potts, B.L. Senkel and Lt. E.L. Cunningham were dispatched to
1026 N. Beckley. Potts wrote in his after-action report (Box 2, Folder# 9, Item# 32)
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm that after he finished taking some affidavits,
Fritz dispatched them to the Beckely St address at 2:40 and t
hey arrived at Beckley at 3:00PM.
Detective B.L. Senkel also said in his after action report
(Dallas Police Archives Box 3, Folder# 12, Item#1) that they arrived
at 1026 N. Beckley at 3:00PM.
Anyways,,,,the transfer would be given to a driver and logically turned in
by the driver at the Transit office afterward.
But if Jones was on Cecils bus for the 12:40 Marsalis run, that run was
'stopped about 4 blocks from Houston' according to Jones.
It was completely stopped by traffic backed up in this area.
“I remember the night before and the morning too, I asked my dad if we could
go downtown to the Triple Underpass because we could walk out on the tracks
and watch the motorcade go right under us,” Siddons said. “… My dad said no
because the traffic would be heavy, and he didn’t know if he could get me back
to school in time. https://www.liberty.edu/champion/2013/11/looking-back-on-jfk/
We know James Tague was stopped from heading the opposite direction.
"It was an accident I was there, it was un-planned, I just happened to get
stopped in traffic."
The spot where Jones says is the stoppage, Four Blocks is repeated by Cecil.
Mr. McWATTERS - Between Poydras and Lamar, in other words, because I stayed
stopped there for, I guess oh, 3 or 4 minutes anyway before I made any progress
at that one stop right there and that is where the gentleman got off the bus. In fact,
I was talking to the man, the man that come out of the car; in other words, he just
stepped up in the door of the bus, and was telling me that what he had heard over his
radio and that is when the lady who was standing there decided she would walk and
when the other gentleman decided he would also get off at that point.
Mr. BALL - At that point.
What course did you take after that?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I still was going west, in other words, in the same direction,
going west, in other words, towards Houston Street. In other words, I went there
before I changed my course which was about, I would say, three or four blocks.
But eventually Cecil is able to get through the last couple blocks.
....When I got to Houston Street, in other words, I turned to the left, which
would be south--
Mr. BALL - You went by the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; I turned at the corner of Elm Street and Houston
which this book store is on the opposite corner from where I changed course there.
Mr. BALL - Was traffic still heavy along there?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; the traffic was still tied up, but the police, they opened
up a lane there, they had so many buses and everything that was tied up, they opened
up, moved traffic around that they run quite a few of these buses through there.
In other words, from two blocks on this side of where the incident happened they had,
in other words, they was turning all the traffic to the right and to the left, in other
words, north and south.
Mr. BALL - You went on down to Houston viaduct then?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, I turned after they finally let--they weren't letting any cars
through at that time but they just run a bunch of those buses through there.
So not only were other buses, which could be transfered to but why, were also tied
up there. Beckley bus should be one of those 'buses.'
But traffic was being diverted or detoured off Elm St. before Record.
Concerning Lee's question of CE NUMBER Items used for Mcwatters testimony and
that no items were maked as being a Mcwatter's Exhibit is odd seing he brought
in the "bus schedule" :
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/62-109060/62-109060%20Section%2050/62-109060-50B.pdf
These items were to be made available for the Cab driver and Bus drivers testimony!
Why was Cecil not shown item number 4., the receipt or 004451?
On the face of things it seems as Jones story and Cecils make sense a man and a
woman got transfers when the bus was
February 7, 2015 at 5:07 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 5, 2015 at 9:12 AM
Bus numbers are printed on the transfer next to the bus route. #30 is the
Marsalis bus and #23 is the Lakewood bus.
I know Ed recently got his diploma concerning this
but I'm still confused as fuck.
It's usually procedural stuff like this, cuturally different to my own experiences,
that screws with my brain.
And I go back to my question; if I boarded the #30 bus at LAMAR & ELM why the
hell would I be given a transfer suggesting I'd been on the #23 bus (LAKEWOOD)
when I hadn't?
Answer:
When the bus left Anita and Cambria it was showing a sign MARSALIS 30
The bus had transfers available, they were punched PM and LAKEWOOD.
Passengers whom asked for a transfer would be torn a transfer from the top of
the Lakewood booklet.
Passengers on that particular bus whom asked for a transfer anywhere downtown
would get a LAKEWOOD transfer.
Passengers onboard after Pentagon and Marsalis were now on the Lakewood 23 bus.
Transfers asked for by passengers would now be from a different booklet, switched
over by the driver, punched MARSALIS.
February 7, 2015 at 5:29 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
John Mooney
Member
Posts: 48
"Passengers onboard after Pentagon and Marsalis were now on the Lakewood 23 bus.
Transfers asked for by passengers would now be from a different booklet,
switched over by the driver, punched MARSALIS. "
I don't think transfer would normally be handed out on that route after Lamar.
The idea of transfers is that you change bus in central Dallas... in and out...
like the spokes of a wheel.
That's why the transfer cutter was set in advance to 1.00pm, Lamaar was the
changing point, you had 15 mins to continue your journey on another bus
(presumably nearby in the central hub).,
February 7, 2015 at 6:59 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Greg at February 7, 2015 at 5:07 PM
Cecil is early that afternoon, I would imagine most BUS RIDERS had already
made their way to parade route areas or downtown, and most shoppers would too.
So mostly empty stops along the inbound. Quick stops.
Five passengers perhaps inbound.
Milton Jones sez about 15 passengers... after reading Jones' again...
nothing seems to match up.
Is the female Jones has leaving by the back door the same lady that McWatters
has getting a transfer on her way out? Sure sounds like cos Jones has his "Oswald"
leaving just after her via the front door. So if it's the same lady, how does that work?
Did she go up to McWatters, get a transfer then ask him to open the back door for her?
And what of Jones' claims that two cops came on board and questioned everyone?
The word "police" is mentioned 26 times in McWatters' testimony, yet not once in
reference to any getting on board and questioning people.
Going through McWatters' testimony another thing jumped out - and Lee has
alluded to it already - it is bleedingly and agonizingly obvious that Cooper doesn't
believe there was another man on that bus - not a word of it. Which means either
both McWatters and Jones are lying, or (more likely?) everything that is stated by
Bledsoe, McWatters and Jones more or less happened, but not on the same trip?
The impression I'm starting to get is similar the lunchroom encounter fiasco where
real events have been merged to form a brand new, but totally fabricated event.
Or something like that.
Jones' 15 would be outbound passengers.
Jones was alone when he got on. Whatever that means. He was not with anyone?
Or no other person was on the parked bus? Answer that...
Jones and Cecil both have the two passengers whom board at the same time
get off at the same time.
Is that there any other reason given than to re-board Cecil's bus that the
Suitcase Lady, asks for or is given, a transfer by Cecil. Same with the man.
What other use could it serve? reduce the number of transfers in his book?
Hmmm. Could Jones be right and the Lady got off and only the man got a transfer,
....or the man got off the rear. and the Lady whom had to drag on her suitcase
would not go towards the back of the bus?
I think she would have been very close to the front if their was room available
there with 15 others.
She was a Blonde with Baggage.
Mr. McWATTERS - "The best I can recall I had two or three or four elderly women,
the best I can remember on the bus when I left town,..."
They could be looking for Givens if they did board the bus.
Why no other claims of being TSA'd by DPD on 11/22 by some
fifteen other passengers? (TSA'd = frisked)
I don't think it happened that way no matter what is in the FBI
report of what Jones said.
Jones' claims of two frisky policemen is at odds with everything.
No other reports of buses being searched by media. No witnesses
to searches telling their story of 11/22.
Maybe we should ask Hugh!!
“Oswald caught a city bus here,” Hugh Aynesworth is telling his visitor as the two of
them cross Griffin Street on their way down Elm. “He only rode it a few blocks and
then got tied up in the traffic jam around Dealey Plaza.”
“I wonder why he took a bus back toward the School Book Depository?” the visitor
asks. “It seems he would want to go the other way.”
“Yeah, it does,” Aynesworth says, as the two proceed down Elm, jostled by the
pre-Christmas crowds on their way to Sangers and Neimans and Brooks Brothers.
It is a bitterly cold day, but Aynesworth seems oblivious to it. “But, ” he adds,
with a soft smile, “That‘s what he did. He got off the bus here”—the two cross
the corner of Elm and Lamar—“and ran over to the Greyhound Bus Station,
where he caught a cab.”
"Aynesworth should know. He broke the story of Oswald’s escape route,"
Senator COOPER - Was the passenger that got on near Murphy Street the
same passenger that you later have testified about who told you that the
President had been shot in the temple?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they told me later that it was, but at the time they didn't tell me.
Senator COOPER - Who didn't tell you?
Mr. McWATTERS - The police didn't.
The police needed to tell Cecil that his passenger, whom must have had a transfer,
was the same one whom said the president was shot in the temple. Sounds like Police
had Cecil on an accessory after the fact charge if he didn't help out.
Besides if it was Oswald how would he know JFK was shot in the temple? Was he also
shooting from the knoll?
Could he learn this from Reed or other workers before his seven block dash?.,,,
if it was LHO whom was on a bus and said this.
. A follow-up question asked: “Can you say where the bullet entered his head, Mac?”
To this Kilduff replied: “It is my understanding that it entered in the temple, the right
temple.” Later that day, Chet Huntley repeated this: “President Kennedy, we are now
informed, was shot in the right temple'It was a simple matter of a bullet right through /
the head,' said Dr. George Burkley, the White House medical officer."
22/63, 1:47 p.m. CST; (See JFK: The Medical Evidence Reference, by
Vincent Palamara, p. 44.)
This is following a UPI wire service story at 1:47 cst. stating the same.
Heck the first national news bulletin of the 'shooting' came over the ABC Radio Network
at 12:36 pm CST/1:36 pm EST.
UPI had a 12:38 report.
http://smallnotes.library.virginia.edu/2013/11/20/this-just-in-upi-wire/
It would be a long time to wait in traffic on a bus for news to
announce the Temple Shot at 12:47
this would work for Cecil, and the man in the car would hear the
radio news and tell Cecil and thusly Jones.
Of course Cooper is the one whom sees through all of the loose talk and
rumor mongering and wants facts.
Senator COOPER - Yes. The man to whom you have just referred as getting
on the bus near Murphy Street.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Senator COOPER - Is he the same man who told you that the President
had been shot in the temple?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Senator COOPER - Who told you that?
Mr. McWATTERS - A man in an automobile in front of me, in other words,
that was sitting in a car come back and told me.
Senator COOPER - Told you what?
Mr. McWATTERS - That the President had been shot, that he had heard over his
radio in his car that the President had been shot.
Senator COOPER - I think you have testified that someone, some passenger on the bus,
in response to a question that you had asked, "I wonder where they shot the President"
said, "They shot him in the temple."
Mr. McWATTERS - Oh, that was now, that was after we had done, that is when I turned
on Houston Street, the conversation with the teenage boy.
Senator COOPER - It was the teenage boy who told you that?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; it was the teenage boy, sitting on his right side of the side
seat there, the one that I conversationed with about the President being shot in the
head or the temple, I don't remember, but the teenage boy was the one. That was
after the man that already got off that had boarded my bus up around Griffin there.
But Jones doesn't know anything about the president being shot in the Temple. No
recollection at all of the Temple Shot.
Then we get this gem!!
Mr. BALL - We have got--we have this diagram that you have already drawn of the bus
which has several initials on it. Could you tell me where on the bus this lady sat who told
the teenager it was no grinning matter?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, now, that is, in other words, I don't think at that time now this
teenager was still on the bus near, but I had a couple of more passengers on there, I believe
I had two women on there, but I can't recall just, when I picked her up where she sat down
on the bus.
Mr. BALL - Do you remember you said to the woman, "Look at that man behind you?"
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, she was standing up here at the fare, paying fare.
Mr. BALL - And the teenager was where?
Mr. McWATTERS - He was sitting right here.
Mr. BALL - At the place "O", is that right?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, at the place "O".
Mr. BALL - I see--
Mr. McWATTERS - That is where the conversation was going on.
A bit of steering by Ball to get the teenager back on the bus for the Lady, just
hopping on and paying her fare, to have this conversation!
Yes Greg The BUS is one PaRt TwiLiGHt ZoNe one part Disney!
February 7, 2015 at 9:10 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
[color=#333366]John Mooney at February 7, 2015 at 6:59 PM
"Passengers onboard after Pentagon and Marsalis were now on the Lakewood 23 bus.
Transfers asked for by passengers would now be from a different booklet, switched
over by the driver, punched MARSALIS. " I don't think transfer would normally be
handed out on that route after Lamar. The idea of transfers is that you change bus
in central Dallas... in and out... like the spokes of a wheel.
That's why the transfer cutter was set in advance to 1.00pm, Lamaar was the
changing point, you had 15 mins to continue your journey on another bus
(presumably nearby in the central hub).,
Not entirely true,
You could transfer at Jefferson and Marsalis with the 004459 transfer.
Transfer point 7 I believe on the list.
Cecil only took two booklets.
They changed at the end of the run.
Not in the middle. Not dowtown.
At the end of the runs, farthest points, on the maps with arrows! At Anita and at
Pentagon were where the changes occured.
February 7, 2015 at 9:23 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 5, 2015 at 4:21 AM
Terry Martin at February 5, 2015 at 3:07 AM
Not really, although it would be easier to follow if I used a map.
The only confusion I found was in the middle of the second paragraph "...
Market and Elm and Record and Elm." This should have ended the description of the
downtown stops and started another paragraph with
"This bus then turns south on Houston..."
At the end it returns to its starting point at Main and Lamar
and starts over from the top.
At least that how it seems to me. (a frequent over-looker of the obvious)
Maybe I've been at this too long, Terry. The amount of time we have to spend to
work out how a bleedin' transfer works and how it was cut is something new researchers
should take into account before letting this case suck them in.
Are we saying this bus had three separate routes?
Route One - LAMAR STREET & MAIN STREET to CAMBRIA & ANITA -
Route ends and bus starts route two
Route Two - CAMBRIA & ANITA to PENTAGON & MARSALIS Route ends
and bus starts route three
Route Three - PENTAGON & MARSALIS to LAMAR STREET End of route three
and begins route one again
Route, run, potato, potahto, Tomato, tomahto, Let's call the whole thing off.
Yes Route had an AM run, route one.
and two PM routes, route 2 and 3 by your submission.
Transfers changed at end of route, start of route two. Signs change.
If not already a Marsalis 30 Bus
Transfers change again at start of route three. Signs change to lakewood 23 bus.
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 6, 2015 at 9:59 PM
I have a niggle. Might be nothing more than a genuine error made based upon
the fallibility of human memory but it could be something quite different...
...because I've just re-read Roy Milton Jones' FBI statement and he states the bus
he was on that afternoon "...arrived at approximately 12:10PM or 12:15PM."
McWatters bus allegedly arrived at Milton Jones' bus stop outside the Capri Theater
at 12:36PM. That's a big time difference when waiting for a bus. There was a bus due
at the same stop just before 12:10PM that day which would get to Houston & Elm
prior to 12:15PM (the spot where McWatters originally said Jones got on the bus!!!!!
Somewhat interesting.
Did McWatters bus initially get stopped on Elm Street because of the shooting or
simply because of the parade itself? Was he really driving the 12:40PM LAMAR to
MARSALIS BUS or what are the chances he was driving the 12:10PM LAMAR
to MARSALIS bus?
If it's the second one what does that do to our new narrative? Does it stay
the same or does it change anything? Pre-stamped transfers?
Good show Lee!!
Lets see what I can offer.
Jones got to the theater and he was waiting for the bus.
He said about 12:15 Cecil showed up.
But Cecil would wait here as usual if early.
He would KILL A MINUTE until about 12:35 and drive the half-block to St.Paul
and Elm where the bus dispatcher was timing him.
Mr. BALL - Were you ahead of your schedule?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I stopped about a block before now, just a block before
we get to St. Paul, there is a big theater there, and it has all loading zones, no
parking there and a lot of times if we are a minute or two ahead of our schedule
when we pull in in front of this theater before we get there in time, in other words,
we kill a minute.
Mr. BALL - What did you do this day?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I was a little ahead of my schedule and I killed about a minute,
I guess, before I went to cross St. Paul Street.
Mr. BALL - After your dispatcher checked you in what time did you leave that corner of
St. Paul and Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, the best I can remember I don't recall even picking up a passenger
there. I think I discharged one lady passenger there on that, to the best I can recall,
because I remember that I had, when I crossed Field Street, I think I had five
passengers on my bus.
Mr. BALL - Well then, back to *the question, what time did you leave that day, leave
Elm and St. Paul?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I would have to say I left there around, in other words, 12:36
because I know I was on good time when I come in there.
Cecil is early that afternoon, I would imagine most BUS RIDERS had already made their
way to parade route areas or downtown, and most shoppers would too. So mostly
empty stops along the inbound. Quick stops. Five passengers perhaps inbound.
He kills time at the Theater with the other early drivers if they are at the theater too
'killing a minute.'
He would need to be back on the bus and heading to St Paul by 12:35. But we don't
know whom the dispatcher was and if he marked up Cecil for being early or late.
Evidence submitted, On Time.
Passengers would sit and wait.
Passengers would be able to board but would not need to pay fare to Cecil, in his
presence, but the money better be in the receptacle if you boarded and driver was off the
bus. He can see number of passengers whom boarded and your two dimes and three
pennies would be proof of payment.
If your Milton Jones and the bus is empty of even a driver you could enter the bus,
pay the fare and take a seat. driver would board check the receptacle for the right
amount of change and let it drop into the collection bin and pull onto Elm from the
theater toward St.Paul and the waiting dispatcher.
Mr. BALL - Do you think he did anything, did he write anything up on you on that day?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; the guy that we have down there now, if you are ahead of
schedule he will come out, in other words, because he stands on the corner all the time,
and if you are a minute or two ahead of your schedule he will come out and if
nothing else, converse with you for a minute or two to see that you leave it on time
and very seldom, I mean, if ever--of course, a report goes in on you, it goes
against your record.
Mr. BALL - In other words, if he did make a record it would be by way of a reprimand to you?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Could Milton's times be off by 10 minutes. Yes it is likely.
Could Elmer S. Blackmon be this dispatcher? https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11640&relPageId=222
Blackmon clan deserves a whole thread. Thanks to Kimbrough!
Anyways ...Milton would get on Cecils parked bus....and wait.
Cecil could take a smoke break or use a restroom nearby, chat it up with the
other drivers for a bit.
What did Jones say?
"He said that upon entering the bus he sat in the first seat, facing forward on
the curb side of the bus and was alone."
No one, not even the driver? He was alone? No other passengers on the bus or
was he alone in his seat?
To me he is ALONE on a parked bus.
Cecil after his break would drive to St.Paul and then about four blocks from
Houston get stopped completely in traffic.
Cecil is asked:
Mr. BALL - Had you heard any sirens before you got to St. Paul and Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
He is not asked when and where he did hear sirens...thanks Ball.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
As I left Field Street, I pulled out into the, in other words, the first lane of
traffic and traffic was beginning to back up then; in other words, it was blocked
further down the street, and after I pulled out in it for a short distance there I
come to a complete stop, and when I did, someone come up and beat on the
door of the bus, and that is about even with Griffin Street.
In other words, it is a street that dead ends into Elm Street which there is no
bus stop at this street, because I stopped across Field Street in the middle of
the intersection and it is just a short distance onto Griffin Street, and that is
when someone, a man, came up and knocked on the door of the bus, and I
opened the door of the bus and he got on.
Mr. BALL - You were beyond Field and before you got to Griffin?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right. It was along about even with Griffin Street before
I was stopped in the traffic.
Mr. BALL - And that is about seven or eight blocks from the Texas Book
Depository Building, isn't it?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. It would be seven, I would say that is seven, it
would be about seven blocks.
Lee is correct, this stoppage is due to the motorcade coming through, and before
12:30 the lanes on Elm would be stopped.
The whole motorcade, press buses, etc would go through Houston intersection
after the shots were fired.
For Cecil traffic would begin to back up and by 12:36 he would be pulling out
into Elm street traffic which has been stopped for several minutes pre-and -post
motorcade. Some of this traffic was stopped previously at Harwood and Elm till
the motorcade went by. It would be piled up again down Elm street before Houston.
Besides that the WC timing is suspect to walk seven blocks after 12:35
(WC used 3 minutes after assassination? oy vey Vickie Adams and Baker)
and be where and when Cecil would need to be at that juncture in his
trip/schedule to pick up Oswald.
7 blocks in less than five minutes. WC used 6 1/2 averaged minutes for
the seven block 'walk'.
I see DPD directing traffic, Barnett, Smith and Smith? Intersection looks
pretty messed up....
The intersection East of Elm and Houston was vehicle free.
No cars waiting behind the parade watchers strung across the Elm St. intersection.
Did DPD stop traffic before Houston on Elm? Its just odd to to see no
vehicles behind the people! Seems like they could stop traffic from coming across Record.
Food for thought.
So it is for both reasons of the Parade and Shooting Cecil would be tied up in
traffic...and at Houston and Elm the Parade and Shooting were synonymous.
I don't see how we can put Jones on an earlier bus and it be Cecil's 1213 also.
Too much doesn't fit.
Posting this so its not lost by bad keystroke or power outage and I will
continue reply.
Question:
In Cecil's showup did they have each man step forward and say "Transfer Please"????
February 7, 2015 at 2:50 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 6, 2015 at 10:57 PM
Addendum to Scenario #1:
McWatters was kept at City Hall until after midnight on 11/22 while the
DPD went and secured Roy Milton Jones and the transfer.
We can see that when he was being interviewed McWatters was telling
Detective C. N. Dhority that he had let the guy off on Marsalis because it is
in his hadnwritten affidavit BUT IS CROSSED OUT:
WHY IS 004459 crossed out?
February 7, 2015 at 2:51 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
Cecil is early that afternoon, I would imagine most BUS RIDERS had already made
their way to parade route areas or downtown, and most shoppers would too.
So mostly empty stops along the inbound. Quick stops. Five passengers perhaps inbound.
Milton Jones sez about 15 passengers... after reading Jones' again...
nothing seems to match up.
Is the female Jones has leaving by the back door the same lady that McWatters
has getting a transfer on her way out? Sure sounds like cos Jones has his "Oswald"
leaving just after her via the front door. So if it's the same lady, how does that work?
Did she go up to McWatters, get a transfer then ask him to open the back ddor for her?
And what of Jones' claims that two cops came on board and questioned everyone?
The word "police" is mentioned 26 times in McWatters' testimony, yet not once in
reference to any getting on board and questioning people.
Going through McWatters' testimony another thing jumped out - and Lee has alluded
to it already - it is bleedingly and agonisingly obvious that Cooper doesn't believe there
was another man on that bus - not a word of it. Which means either both McWatters
and Jones are lying, or (more likely?) everything that is stated by Bledsoe, McWatters
and Jones more or less happened, but not on the same trip? The impression I'm starting
to get is similar the lunchroom encounter fiasco where real events have been merged
to form a brand new, but totally fanricated event.
Or something like that.
February 7, 2015 at 5:07 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 6, 2015 at 11:08 PM
Scenario #1 Variation.
McWatters was driving the 12:10PM bus that Jones was on, before JONES quickly
departed asking for a transfer. Twenty minutes later he got back on the same bus
after the parade/shooting because the bus was sat in the same spot
(or had moved a block or two) for at least 20 minutes.
With this scenario variation the Lee Harvey Oswald character IS ALL Roy Milton Jones.
JONES got on the bus. Stayed on the bus for a few blocks.
Asked for a transfer and got off the bus.
But the difference is JONES re-boarded the exact same bus after the parade.
McWatters himself said he was caught in traffic on Elm Street for 15-20
minutes but this delay was always framed around the aftermath of the shooting
when the reality was he was possibly caught in the traffic for 15-20
minutes by the parade.
In this scenario Cecil would have possesion of the transfer he gave to Jones
and Jones gave back to cecil. (in pristine condition)
Cecil and that transfer would be pretty familiar with each other by then.
We do not know from evidence presented what would happen with a transfer
given to a driver.
He should logically keep it and turn it in to the office, perhaps with
that days/weeks timesheet.
I think he would have to turn it in sooner than later, his supervisor needing
the transfers if there were a complaint called in. I think at end of run/s @ 3:30ish.
Question: Could officers have gotten a transfer from the shirt LHO changed out
of at time of Beckley search at 3pm? (If LHO did change shirts his transfer could
be there at Beckley, in the drawer in the shirt pocket just as LHO said, and would
back up LHO's story of a bus ride home and changed clothes)
At 2:40 PM, W.E. Potts, B.L. Senkel and Lt. E.L. Cunningham were dispatched to
1026 N. Beckley. Potts wrote in his after-action report (Box 2, Folder# 9, Item# 32)
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm that after he finished taking some affidavits,
Fritz dispatched them to the Beckely St address at 2:40 and t
hey arrived at Beckley at 3:00PM.
Detective B.L. Senkel also said in his after action report
(Dallas Police Archives Box 3, Folder# 12, Item#1) that they arrived
at 1026 N. Beckley at 3:00PM.
Anyways,,,,the transfer would be given to a driver and logically turned in
by the driver at the Transit office afterward.
But if Jones was on Cecils bus for the 12:40 Marsalis run, that run was
'stopped about 4 blocks from Houston' according to Jones.
It was completely stopped by traffic backed up in this area.
“I remember the night before and the morning too, I asked my dad if we could
go downtown to the Triple Underpass because we could walk out on the tracks
and watch the motorcade go right under us,” Siddons said. “… My dad said no
because the traffic would be heavy, and he didn’t know if he could get me back
to school in time. https://www.liberty.edu/champion/2013/11/looking-back-on-jfk/
We know James Tague was stopped from heading the opposite direction.
"It was an accident I was there, it was un-planned, I just happened to get
stopped in traffic."
The spot where Jones says is the stoppage, Four Blocks is repeated by Cecil.
Mr. McWATTERS - Between Poydras and Lamar, in other words, because I stayed
stopped there for, I guess oh, 3 or 4 minutes anyway before I made any progress
at that one stop right there and that is where the gentleman got off the bus. In fact,
I was talking to the man, the man that come out of the car; in other words, he just
stepped up in the door of the bus, and was telling me that what he had heard over his
radio and that is when the lady who was standing there decided she would walk and
when the other gentleman decided he would also get off at that point.
Mr. BALL - At that point.
What course did you take after that?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I still was going west, in other words, in the same direction,
going west, in other words, towards Houston Street. In other words, I went there
before I changed my course which was about, I would say, three or four blocks.
But eventually Cecil is able to get through the last couple blocks.
....When I got to Houston Street, in other words, I turned to the left, which
would be south--
Mr. BALL - You went by the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; I turned at the corner of Elm Street and Houston
which this book store is on the opposite corner from where I changed course there.
Mr. BALL - Was traffic still heavy along there?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; the traffic was still tied up, but the police, they opened
up a lane there, they had so many buses and everything that was tied up, they opened
up, moved traffic around that they run quite a few of these buses through there.
In other words, from two blocks on this side of where the incident happened they had,
in other words, they was turning all the traffic to the right and to the left, in other
words, north and south.
Mr. BALL - You went on down to Houston viaduct then?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, I turned after they finally let--they weren't letting any cars
through at that time but they just run a bunch of those buses through there.
So not only were other buses, which could be transfered to but why, were also tied
up there. Beckley bus should be one of those 'buses.'
But traffic was being diverted or detoured off Elm St. before Record.
Concerning Lee's question of CE NUMBER Items used for Mcwatters testimony and
that no items were maked as being a Mcwatter's Exhibit is odd seing he brought
in the "bus schedule" :
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/62-109060/62-109060%20Section%2050/62-109060-50B.pdf
These items were to be made available for the Cab driver and Bus drivers testimony!
Why was Cecil not shown item number 4., the receipt or 004451?
On the face of things it seems as Jones story and Cecils make sense a man and a
woman got transfers when the bus was
February 7, 2015 at 5:07 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 5, 2015 at 9:12 AM
Bus numbers are printed on the transfer next to the bus route. #30 is the
Marsalis bus and #23 is the Lakewood bus.
I know Ed recently got his diploma concerning this
but I'm still confused as fuck.
It's usually procedural stuff like this, cuturally different to my own experiences,
that screws with my brain.
And I go back to my question; if I boarded the #30 bus at LAMAR & ELM why the
hell would I be given a transfer suggesting I'd been on the #23 bus (LAKEWOOD)
when I hadn't?
Answer:
When the bus left Anita and Cambria it was showing a sign MARSALIS 30
The bus had transfers available, they were punched PM and LAKEWOOD.
Passengers whom asked for a transfer would be torn a transfer from the top of
the Lakewood booklet.
Passengers on that particular bus whom asked for a transfer anywhere downtown
would get a LAKEWOOD transfer.
Passengers onboard after Pentagon and Marsalis were now on the Lakewood 23 bus.
Transfers asked for by passengers would now be from a different booklet, switched
over by the driver, punched MARSALIS.
February 7, 2015 at 5:29 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
John Mooney
Member
Posts: 48
"Passengers onboard after Pentagon and Marsalis were now on the Lakewood 23 bus.
Transfers asked for by passengers would now be from a different booklet,
switched over by the driver, punched MARSALIS. "
I don't think transfer would normally be handed out on that route after Lamar.
The idea of transfers is that you change bus in central Dallas... in and out...
like the spokes of a wheel.
That's why the transfer cutter was set in advance to 1.00pm, Lamaar was the
changing point, you had 15 mins to continue your journey on another bus
(presumably nearby in the central hub).,
February 7, 2015 at 6:59 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Greg at February 7, 2015 at 5:07 PM
Cecil is early that afternoon, I would imagine most BUS RIDERS had already
made their way to parade route areas or downtown, and most shoppers would too.
So mostly empty stops along the inbound. Quick stops.
Five passengers perhaps inbound.
Milton Jones sez about 15 passengers... after reading Jones' again...
nothing seems to match up.
Is the female Jones has leaving by the back door the same lady that McWatters
has getting a transfer on her way out? Sure sounds like cos Jones has his "Oswald"
leaving just after her via the front door. So if it's the same lady, how does that work?
Did she go up to McWatters, get a transfer then ask him to open the back door for her?
And what of Jones' claims that two cops came on board and questioned everyone?
The word "police" is mentioned 26 times in McWatters' testimony, yet not once in
reference to any getting on board and questioning people.
Going through McWatters' testimony another thing jumped out - and Lee has
alluded to it already - it is bleedingly and agonizingly obvious that Cooper doesn't
believe there was another man on that bus - not a word of it. Which means either
both McWatters and Jones are lying, or (more likely?) everything that is stated by
Bledsoe, McWatters and Jones more or less happened, but not on the same trip?
The impression I'm starting to get is similar the lunchroom encounter fiasco where
real events have been merged to form a brand new, but totally fabricated event.
Or something like that.
Jones' 15 would be outbound passengers.
Jones was alone when he got on. Whatever that means. He was not with anyone?
Or no other person was on the parked bus? Answer that...
Jones and Cecil both have the two passengers whom board at the same time
get off at the same time.
Is that there any other reason given than to re-board Cecil's bus that the
Suitcase Lady, asks for or is given, a transfer by Cecil. Same with the man.
What other use could it serve? reduce the number of transfers in his book?
Hmmm. Could Jones be right and the Lady got off and only the man got a transfer,
....or the man got off the rear. and the Lady whom had to drag on her suitcase
would not go towards the back of the bus?
I think she would have been very close to the front if their was room available
there with 15 others.
She was a Blonde with Baggage.
Mr. McWATTERS - "The best I can recall I had two or three or four elderly women,
the best I can remember on the bus when I left town,..."
They could be looking for Givens if they did board the bus.
Why no other claims of being TSA'd by DPD on 11/22 by some
fifteen other passengers? (TSA'd = frisked)
I don't think it happened that way no matter what is in the FBI
report of what Jones said.
Jones' claims of two frisky policemen is at odds with everything.
No other reports of buses being searched by media. No witnesses
to searches telling their story of 11/22.
Maybe we should ask Hugh!!
“Oswald caught a city bus here,” Hugh Aynesworth is telling his visitor as the two of
them cross Griffin Street on their way down Elm. “He only rode it a few blocks and
then got tied up in the traffic jam around Dealey Plaza.”
“I wonder why he took a bus back toward the School Book Depository?” the visitor
asks. “It seems he would want to go the other way.”
“Yeah, it does,” Aynesworth says, as the two proceed down Elm, jostled by the
pre-Christmas crowds on their way to Sangers and Neimans and Brooks Brothers.
It is a bitterly cold day, but Aynesworth seems oblivious to it. “But, ” he adds,
with a soft smile, “That‘s what he did. He got off the bus here”—the two cross
the corner of Elm and Lamar—“and ran over to the Greyhound Bus Station,
where he caught a cab.”
"Aynesworth should know. He broke the story of Oswald’s escape route,"
Senator COOPER - Was the passenger that got on near Murphy Street the
same passenger that you later have testified about who told you that the
President had been shot in the temple?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they told me later that it was, but at the time they didn't tell me.
Senator COOPER - Who didn't tell you?
Mr. McWATTERS - The police didn't.
The police needed to tell Cecil that his passenger, whom must have had a transfer,
was the same one whom said the president was shot in the temple. Sounds like Police
had Cecil on an accessory after the fact charge if he didn't help out.
Besides if it was Oswald how would he know JFK was shot in the temple? Was he also
shooting from the knoll?
Could he learn this from Reed or other workers before his seven block dash?.,,,
if it was LHO whom was on a bus and said this.
. A follow-up question asked: “Can you say where the bullet entered his head, Mac?”
To this Kilduff replied: “It is my understanding that it entered in the temple, the right
temple.” Later that day, Chet Huntley repeated this: “President Kennedy, we are now
informed, was shot in the right temple'It was a simple matter of a bullet right through /
the head,' said Dr. George Burkley, the White House medical officer."
22/63, 1:47 p.m. CST; (See JFK: The Medical Evidence Reference, by
Vincent Palamara, p. 44.)
This is following a UPI wire service story at 1:47 cst. stating the same.
Heck the first national news bulletin of the 'shooting' came over the ABC Radio Network
at 12:36 pm CST/1:36 pm EST.
UPI had a 12:38 report.
http://smallnotes.library.virginia.edu/2013/11/20/this-just-in-upi-wire/
It would be a long time to wait in traffic on a bus for news to
announce the Temple Shot at 12:47
this would work for Cecil, and the man in the car would hear the
radio news and tell Cecil and thusly Jones.
Of course Cooper is the one whom sees through all of the loose talk and
rumor mongering and wants facts.
Senator COOPER - Yes. The man to whom you have just referred as getting
on the bus near Murphy Street.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Senator COOPER - Is he the same man who told you that the President
had been shot in the temple?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Senator COOPER - Who told you that?
Mr. McWATTERS - A man in an automobile in front of me, in other words,
that was sitting in a car come back and told me.
Senator COOPER - Told you what?
Mr. McWATTERS - That the President had been shot, that he had heard over his
radio in his car that the President had been shot.
Senator COOPER - I think you have testified that someone, some passenger on the bus,
in response to a question that you had asked, "I wonder where they shot the President"
said, "They shot him in the temple."
Mr. McWATTERS - Oh, that was now, that was after we had done, that is when I turned
on Houston Street, the conversation with the teenage boy.
Senator COOPER - It was the teenage boy who told you that?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; it was the teenage boy, sitting on his right side of the side
seat there, the one that I conversationed with about the President being shot in the
head or the temple, I don't remember, but the teenage boy was the one. That was
after the man that already got off that had boarded my bus up around Griffin there.
But Jones doesn't know anything about the president being shot in the Temple. No
recollection at all of the Temple Shot.
Then we get this gem!!
Mr. BALL - We have got--we have this diagram that you have already drawn of the bus
which has several initials on it. Could you tell me where on the bus this lady sat who told
the teenager it was no grinning matter?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, now, that is, in other words, I don't think at that time now this
teenager was still on the bus near, but I had a couple of more passengers on there, I believe
I had two women on there, but I can't recall just, when I picked her up where she sat down
on the bus.
Mr. BALL - Do you remember you said to the woman, "Look at that man behind you?"
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, she was standing up here at the fare, paying fare.
Mr. BALL - And the teenager was where?
Mr. McWATTERS - He was sitting right here.
Mr. BALL - At the place "O", is that right?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, at the place "O".
Mr. BALL - I see--
Mr. McWATTERS - That is where the conversation was going on.
A bit of steering by Ball to get the teenager back on the bus for the Lady, just
hopping on and paying her fare, to have this conversation!
Yes Greg The BUS is one PaRt TwiLiGHt ZoNe one part Disney!
February 7, 2015 at 9:10 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
[color=#333366]John Mooney at February 7, 2015 at 6:59 PM
"Passengers onboard after Pentagon and Marsalis were now on the Lakewood 23 bus.
Transfers asked for by passengers would now be from a different booklet, switched
over by the driver, punched MARSALIS. " I don't think transfer would normally be
handed out on that route after Lamar. The idea of transfers is that you change bus
in central Dallas... in and out... like the spokes of a wheel.
That's why the transfer cutter was set in advance to 1.00pm, Lamaar was the
changing point, you had 15 mins to continue your journey on another bus
(presumably nearby in the central hub).,
Not entirely true,
You could transfer at Jefferson and Marsalis with the 004459 transfer.
Transfer point 7 I believe on the list.
Cecil only took two booklets.
They changed at the end of the run.
Not in the middle. Not dowtown.
At the end of the runs, farthest points, on the maps with arrows! At Anita and at
Pentagon were where the changes occured.
February 7, 2015 at 9:23 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 5, 2015 at 4:21 AM
Terry Martin at February 5, 2015 at 3:07 AM
Not really, although it would be easier to follow if I used a map.
The only confusion I found was in the middle of the second paragraph "...
Market and Elm and Record and Elm." This should have ended the description of the
downtown stops and started another paragraph with
"This bus then turns south on Houston..."
At the end it returns to its starting point at Main and Lamar
and starts over from the top.
At least that how it seems to me. (a frequent over-looker of the obvious)
Maybe I've been at this too long, Terry. The amount of time we have to spend to
work out how a bleedin' transfer works and how it was cut is something new researchers
should take into account before letting this case suck them in.
Are we saying this bus had three separate routes?
Route One - LAMAR STREET & MAIN STREET to CAMBRIA & ANITA -
Route ends and bus starts route two
Route Two - CAMBRIA & ANITA to PENTAGON & MARSALIS Route ends
and bus starts route three
Route Three - PENTAGON & MARSALIS to LAMAR STREET End of route three
and begins route one again
Route, run, potato, potahto, Tomato, tomahto, Let's call the whole thing off.
Yes Route had an AM run, route one.
and two PM routes, route 2 and 3 by your submission.
Transfers changed at end of route, start of route two. Signs change.
If not already a Marsalis 30 Bus
Transfers change again at start of route three. Signs change to lakewood 23 bus.
- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Tue 16 Aug 2016, 6:07 pm
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 5, 2015 at 8:48 AM
My main question is quite simple. Cecil McWatters, whilst driving down Elm Street
at 12:36pm on 11/22, was driving the #23 bus from LAKEWOOD to LAMAR. When he
got to LAMAR & ELM that bus would cease being the #23 LAKEWOOD to LAMAR bus
and would become the #30 LAMAR to MARSALIS bus.
So is it not convenient that it is at GRIFFIN & ELM that the man he alleges knocked
on his door and boarded the bus? GRIFFIN & ELM is ONE STOP before the bus number
would change from #23 to #30 at LAMAR & ELM.
This is why I would like to know if I boarded the #30 bus from LAMAR & ELM and
asked for a transfer upon departing would I STILL get a transfer punched LAKEWOOD
even though I haven't technically been on the LAKEWOOD bus? If the answer is YES,
I would still get a transfer punched LAKEWOOD, then we can move onto other things,
if the answer is NO, then what would be punched on the ticket if I boarded the #30 bus
at LAMAR & ELM and asked for a transfer if I got off at JEFFERSON BOULEVARD?
Thank you Lee for finding these maps/routes!
URL please!
Please give website address for these.
February 7, 2015 at 9:48 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Greg at February 7, 2015 at 5:07 PM
Cecil is early that afternoon, I would imagine most BUS RIDERS had already made
their way to parade route areas or downtown, and most shoppers would too. So mostly
empty stops along the inbound. Quick stops. Five passengers perhaps inbound.
Milton Jones sez about 15 passengers... after reading Jones' again...
nothing seems to match up.
Is the female Jones has leaving by the back door the same lady that McWatters
has getting a transfer on her way out? Sure sounds like cos Jones has his "Oswald"
leaving just after her via the front door. So if it's the same lady, how does that work?
Did she go up to McWatters, get a transfer then ask him to open the back ddor for her?
And what of Jones' claims that two cops came on board and questioned everyone?
The word "police" is mentioned 26 times in McWatters' testimony, yet not once in
reference to any getting on board and questioning people.
Going through McWatters' testimony another thing jumped out - and Lee has alluded
to it already - it is bleedingly and agonisingly obvious that Cooper doesn't believe there
was another man on that bus - not a word of it. Which means either both McWatters
and Jones are lying, or (more likely?) everything that is stated by Bledsoe, McWatters
and Jones more or less happened, but not on the same trip? The impression I'm
starting to get is similar the lunchroom encounter fiasco where real events have been
merged to form a brand new, but totally fanricated event.
Or something like that.
This is all falling into place for me, Greg, and it is what I love about collaborative
research. Something in short supply elsewhere.
What is self-explanatory, upon reading McWatters' testimony, is that Roy Milton Jones
and the "other man" who McWatters said boarded the bus are one and the same person.
Two men were made from one man and that one man WAS Roy Milton Jones.
No doubt about it.
There are slips throughout McWatters testimony, prior to Cooper taking over and
the wheels falling off the ID, that point blank tell us that poor old Cecil was
struggling to give the two different men different identities because they
were one and the same:
Mr. BALL - And a man got on. Was it the same man?
Mr. McWATTERS - That was the same man who got on the bus that I picked up,
in other words.
Mr. BALL - And the man you gave the transfer to?
Damn straight, Cecil. We know it was the "same man" because Roy Milton Jones
got off the bus and then got back on.
Mr. McWATTERS - The man I gave the transfer to when the woman--in other words,
when the man that got on Griffin Street there got off at the same place she did.
Mr. BALL - And he was only on the bus about 2 blocks?
Mr. McWATTERS - Two blocks was the only distance.
Mr. BALL - How long did it take you to go those 2 blocks?
Mr. McWATTERS - Now, he paid as far as from St. Paul Street. I made--there
wasn't any traffic holding me up whatsoever, I come on right down to where I
picked the man up there, in other words, about Field, and that is where the
traffic was starting to back up to.
Who paid from St. Paul? Roy Milton Jones paid from St. Paul
The whole testimony is a fraud. I went through it again last night and lost track
of the deception involved due to a completely separate character being created
out of Jones and how difficult is was for Cecil to keep up. Everything that Cecil
says the "other man" did is JONES.
McWatters was ID'ing JONES in the lineup that evening at City Hall because
there WAS NO OTHER MAN.
Mr. BALL - Let me ask you this, though. Did you tell them the man, the smaller man,
you saw in the lineup, did you tell them that you thought he was the man who
got off your bus and got the transfer or the man who was on the bus who
was the teenager who was grinning?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I really thought he was the man who was on the bus.
Mr. BALL - That stayed on the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - That stayed on the bus.
Mr. BALL - And you didn't think he was the man who got off the bus and to
whom you gave a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - At that time you didn't?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is why I say I pinpointed that transfer on that boy as
far as that is concerned. But at first, just like I say, I really thought from the
height and weight of the two men, I mean was just like I say, was both of them
were small. In the lineup they had, in other words, bigger men, in other words,
he was the smallest man at the lineup.
It's ALL horseshit. Other than the fact that Cecil was driving A bus that day we
cannot fucking believe anything that comes out of his mouth. Want to know the
depths of the lies that we are facing here? Want to know why no official time
schedules were placed into evidence during Cecil's testimony?
Mr. BALL - I don't quite understand that. Doesn't your p.m. start at after 12 o'clock?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, the way the transfers are there, did you notice how they was,
they run them until--see how 12:45 there, in other words, that is what they use that
up to a.m. in other words.
Mr. BALL - It is 12:45 a.m., it runs up to a.m.
Mr. McWATTERS - That is what they run it to a.m. In other words, after 12:45 or in
there, in other words, everything is punched p.m.
Mr. BALL - In other words, everything in the hour from 12 on is punched a.m.,
the day time, 12 to one is a.m., 12 to 12:45, for that hour, a transfer good in
that hour is punched a.m., is that right?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, it can be punched a.m. up to, just like 12:45.
Mr. BALL - And the next punch is 1 o'clock and that is p.m?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is p.m.; yes, sir. That is the way they have them.
So why did McWatters pre-punch?
Mr. McWATTERS - You mean why did I have it punched at 1 o'clock?
Mr. BALL - Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS - Because I punch it p.m. In other words, I have a punch, I am going
to Lakewood, I mean I am going Marsalis and I am going back Lakewood, so I just
take me two books of transfers. Instead of punching one of them a.m. and one p.m.
I just punched them p.m.
BULLSHIT. Look at the bus schedules I posted.
Both the 23 LAKEWOOD route and the 30 MARSALIS route had buses running until
1:30 AM. What the fuck is Cecil talking about that 12:00 PM was really 12:00 AM?
What time was a transfer punched if you wanted one in the early hours of the
morning having been on the 12:32AM bus and disembarked at LAMAR asking for a
transfer? Would they punch it PM?
This testimony is fiction. Beginning - middle - end. FICTION.
February 7, 2015 at 10:03 PM
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 5, 2015 at 8:48 AM
My main question is quite simple. Cecil McWatters, whilst driving down Elm Street
at 12:36pm on 11/22, was driving the #23 bus from LAKEWOOD to LAMAR. When he
got to LAMAR & ELM that bus would cease being the #23 LAKEWOOD to LAMAR bus
and would become the #30 LAMAR to MARSALIS bus.
So is it not convenient that it is at GRIFFIN & ELM that the man he alleges knocked
on his door and boarded the bus? GRIFFIN & ELM is ONE STOP before the bus number
would change from #23 to #30 at LAMAR & ELM.
This is why I would like to know if I boarded the #30 bus from LAMAR & ELM and
asked for a transfer upon departing would I STILL get a transfer punched LAKEWOOD
even though I haven't technically been on the LAKEWOOD bus? If the answer is YES,
I would still get a transfer punched LAKEWOOD, then we can move onto other things,
if the answer is NO, then what would be punched on the ticket if I boarded the #30 bus
at LAMAR & ELM and asked for a transfer if I got off at JEFFERSON BOULEVARD?
Thank you Lee for finding these maps/routes!
URL please!
Please give website address for these.
February 7, 2015 at 9:48 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Greg at February 7, 2015 at 5:07 PM
Cecil is early that afternoon, I would imagine most BUS RIDERS had already made
their way to parade route areas or downtown, and most shoppers would too. So mostly
empty stops along the inbound. Quick stops. Five passengers perhaps inbound.
Milton Jones sez about 15 passengers... after reading Jones' again...
nothing seems to match up.
Is the female Jones has leaving by the back door the same lady that McWatters
has getting a transfer on her way out? Sure sounds like cos Jones has his "Oswald"
leaving just after her via the front door. So if it's the same lady, how does that work?
Did she go up to McWatters, get a transfer then ask him to open the back ddor for her?
And what of Jones' claims that two cops came on board and questioned everyone?
The word "police" is mentioned 26 times in McWatters' testimony, yet not once in
reference to any getting on board and questioning people.
Going through McWatters' testimony another thing jumped out - and Lee has alluded
to it already - it is bleedingly and agonisingly obvious that Cooper doesn't believe there
was another man on that bus - not a word of it. Which means either both McWatters
and Jones are lying, or (more likely?) everything that is stated by Bledsoe, McWatters
and Jones more or less happened, but not on the same trip? The impression I'm
starting to get is similar the lunchroom encounter fiasco where real events have been
merged to form a brand new, but totally fanricated event.
Or something like that.
This is all falling into place for me, Greg, and it is what I love about collaborative
research. Something in short supply elsewhere.
What is self-explanatory, upon reading McWatters' testimony, is that Roy Milton Jones
and the "other man" who McWatters said boarded the bus are one and the same person.
Two men were made from one man and that one man WAS Roy Milton Jones.
No doubt about it.
There are slips throughout McWatters testimony, prior to Cooper taking over and
the wheels falling off the ID, that point blank tell us that poor old Cecil was
struggling to give the two different men different identities because they
were one and the same:
Mr. BALL - And a man got on. Was it the same man?
Mr. McWATTERS - That was the same man who got on the bus that I picked up,
in other words.
Mr. BALL - And the man you gave the transfer to?
Damn straight, Cecil. We know it was the "same man" because Roy Milton Jones
got off the bus and then got back on.
Mr. McWATTERS - The man I gave the transfer to when the woman--in other words,
when the man that got on Griffin Street there got off at the same place she did.
Mr. BALL - And he was only on the bus about 2 blocks?
Mr. McWATTERS - Two blocks was the only distance.
Mr. BALL - How long did it take you to go those 2 blocks?
Mr. McWATTERS - Now, he paid as far as from St. Paul Street. I made--there
wasn't any traffic holding me up whatsoever, I come on right down to where I
picked the man up there, in other words, about Field, and that is where the
traffic was starting to back up to.
Who paid from St. Paul? Roy Milton Jones paid from St. Paul
The whole testimony is a fraud. I went through it again last night and lost track
of the deception involved due to a completely separate character being created
out of Jones and how difficult is was for Cecil to keep up. Everything that Cecil
says the "other man" did is JONES.
McWatters was ID'ing JONES in the lineup that evening at City Hall because
there WAS NO OTHER MAN.
Mr. BALL - Let me ask you this, though. Did you tell them the man, the smaller man,
you saw in the lineup, did you tell them that you thought he was the man who
got off your bus and got the transfer or the man who was on the bus who
was the teenager who was grinning?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I really thought he was the man who was on the bus.
Mr. BALL - That stayed on the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - That stayed on the bus.
Mr. BALL - And you didn't think he was the man who got off the bus and to
whom you gave a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - At that time you didn't?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is why I say I pinpointed that transfer on that boy as
far as that is concerned. But at first, just like I say, I really thought from the
height and weight of the two men, I mean was just like I say, was both of them
were small. In the lineup they had, in other words, bigger men, in other words,
he was the smallest man at the lineup.
It's ALL horseshit. Other than the fact that Cecil was driving A bus that day we
cannot fucking believe anything that comes out of his mouth. Want to know the
depths of the lies that we are facing here? Want to know why no official time
schedules were placed into evidence during Cecil's testimony?
Mr. BALL - I don't quite understand that. Doesn't your p.m. start at after 12 o'clock?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, the way the transfers are there, did you notice how they was,
they run them until--see how 12:45 there, in other words, that is what they use that
up to a.m. in other words.
Mr. BALL - It is 12:45 a.m., it runs up to a.m.
Mr. McWATTERS - That is what they run it to a.m. In other words, after 12:45 or in
there, in other words, everything is punched p.m.
Mr. BALL - In other words, everything in the hour from 12 on is punched a.m.,
the day time, 12 to one is a.m., 12 to 12:45, for that hour, a transfer good in
that hour is punched a.m., is that right?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, it can be punched a.m. up to, just like 12:45.
Mr. BALL - And the next punch is 1 o'clock and that is p.m?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is p.m.; yes, sir. That is the way they have them.
So why did McWatters pre-punch?
Mr. McWATTERS - You mean why did I have it punched at 1 o'clock?
Mr. BALL - Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS - Because I punch it p.m. In other words, I have a punch, I am going
to Lakewood, I mean I am going Marsalis and I am going back Lakewood, so I just
take me two books of transfers. Instead of punching one of them a.m. and one p.m.
I just punched them p.m.
BULLSHIT. Look at the bus schedules I posted.
Both the 23 LAKEWOOD route and the 30 MARSALIS route had buses running until
1:30 AM. What the fuck is Cecil talking about that 12:00 PM was really 12:00 AM?
What time was a transfer punched if you wanted one in the early hours of the
morning having been on the 12:32AM bus and disembarked at LAMAR asking for a
transfer? Would they punch it PM?
This testimony is fiction. Beginning - middle - end. FICTION.
February 7, 2015 at 10:03 PM
- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Wed 17 Aug 2016, 1:02 pm
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
okay got em
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=364250
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
These routes also show the Marsalis Run 30
does a PM run at 12:10 and 12:40.
They are listed as PM even though the "company considers up to 12:45 am"
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
They're a combination of materials from John Armstrong's Baylor folders and Mary Ferrell, Ed.
Don't have URL's to hand. I have virtually every Armstrong folder on my hard drive in PDF
form and I grab documents from MFF for storage and that is where I got them from.
This is material I collected from my first foray into this topic.
I downloaded all of the Baylor folders years ago so someone could put them to good use -
- unlike John Armstrong.
I simply screen grab the document from my MacBook and turn it into a JPEG and
upload it to the site.
If I have a chance later I'll see if I can get some URL's.
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
The stuff about a bail bondsman earler rang a bell... and I was right.
With a bit of googling I found one of my posts in Lee;s Ed Forum thread.
---------------------------------------------------
What are the chances this is the same bail bondsman referenced earlier by Ed?
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
I find it hard to believe that Roy Milton Jones would get his bus mixed up.
He says he got on the bus at 12:10 or 12:15. That is the bus BEFORE McWatters bus.
The 12:10PM LAMAR bus. McWatters is the 12:40 PM LAMAR bus.
Thirty minutes difference. Not 5 minutes. Not 10 minutes.
Not 15 or 20 or 25. 30 minutes. A completely different bus -
- if we all honestly believe that McWatters was driving the 12:40 PM.
I'm not willing to accept he was driving the 12:40 PM bus at this point in time.
There is so much bullshit to cut through before I'm willing to accept that as fact.
I can see plenty of loose ends in the scenario I have proposed but there are about
90% less loose ends in my scenario that exist in the story Joseph Ball and
Cecil McWatters left us with.
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
LAMAR was the "General Transfer Point" for transferring buses DOWNTOWN.
However, as McWatters says, if we can believe a word he says, a
transfer would be accepted anywhere in the downtown section:
Mr. BALL - Can you transfer from your bus to the Beckley bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; sure can.
Mr. BALL - Any particular transfer point?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, there are particular transfer points,
but we don't question anybody within the downtown section with a transfer.
Mr. BALL - If you gave a transfer to your bus, then that transfer would be good on a
Beckley bus any place along Elm, wouldn't it?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right, it sure would.
Mr. BALL - Up to the place where you change courses?
Mr. McWATTERS - It would be accepted; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Your course is westerly on Elm, is identical with that of the
Beckley bus between St. Paul and Houston, isn't it?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.
Mr. BALL - And from that point you go south on Houston, and the
Beckley bus continues west on Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.
Mr. BALL - So that would be a normal transfer point, wouldn't it?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Houston and Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - That would be a transfer.
I'm sure there were other transfer points outside the downtown section and
I'm convinced there is a document on Mary Ferrell that details them.
I'll give a go trying to find it this evening.
EDIT:
From the bus schedule itself we can see that if you were on an early
ABRAMS bus from LAMAR there was a transfer point at ABRAMS &
RAVENDALS for the MOCKINGBIRD HILLS bus:
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
Was thinking before about the 12:45 being considered am... and how that might
actually make sense - but only if you bring it back to 12:15... because if for the
sake of convenience, you accept 12 noon as am... then if you give a transfer at
noon that is good for 15 minutes, it makes sense (I Think????) to perhaps extend
to your time stretch to 12:15.
Is it possible then that Cecil added the half hour to make it 12:45 because of the
half hour time difference you point out above? Does adding that half hour alleviate
the issue, or have sucked up too many paint fumes tofday? If I am confusing issues...
ignore... I really don't know... just the half hour thing jumped out at me since I
already had in mind about the 12:15 vs 12:45 issue...
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Mr. BALL - I don't quite understand that. Doesn't your p.m. start at after 12 o'clock?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, the way the transfers are there, did you notice how they was,
they run them until--see how 12:45 there, in other words, that is what they use that
up to a.m. in other words.
Mr. BALL - It is 12:45 a.m., it runs up to a.m.
Mr. McWATTERS - That is what they run it to a.m. In other words, after 12:45 or in
there, in other words, everything is punched p.m.
Mr. BALL - In other words, everything in the hour from 12 on is punched a.m., the day
time, 12 to one is a.m., 12 to 12:45, for that hour, a transfer good in that hour is punched
a.m., is that right?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, it can be punched a.m. up to, just like 12:45.
Mr. BALL - And the next punch is 1 o'clock and that is p.m?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is p.m.; yes, sir. That is the way they have them.
So why did McWatters pre-punch?
Because he alway dropped his transfers at Lamar at 12:40 or so.
He would give you an extra 5 minutes and save him from punching
individual tickets (pain in the arse)
So he punched the book PM handed you a transfer at Lamar Punched
PM and Lakewood after 12:40 and
called it good.
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
[/table]
Moderator
okay got em
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=364250
| February 7, 2015 at 10:03 PM | Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply |
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
These routes also show the Marsalis Run 30
does a PM run at 12:10 and 12:40.
They are listed as PM even though the "company considers up to 12:45 am"
| February 7, 2015 at 10:09 PM | Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply |
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Ed Ledoux at February 7, 2015 at 9:48 PM
Thank you Lee for finding these maps/routes!Lee Farley at February 5, 2015 at 8:48 AM
My main question is quite simple. Cecil McWatters, whilst driving down Elm Street at
12:36pm on 11/22, was driving the #23 bus from LAKEWOOD to LAMAR. When he got
to LAMAR & ELM that bus would cease being the #23 LAKEWOOD to LAMAR bus and
would become the #30 LAMAR to MARSALIS bus.
So is it not convenient that it is at GRIFFIN & ELM that the man he alleges knocked on
his door and boarded the bus? GRIFFIN & ELM is ONE STOP before the bus number
would change from #23 to #30 at LAMAR & ELM.
This is why I would like to know if I boarded the #30 bus from LAMAR & ELM and asked
for a transfer upon departing would I STILL get a transfer punched LAKEWOOD even
though I haven't technically been on the LAKEWOOD bus? If the answer is YES, I would
still get a transfer punched LAKEWOOD, then we can move onto other things, if the answer
is NO, then what would be punched on the ticket if I boarded the #30 bus at LAMAR & ELM
and asked for a transfer if I got off at JEFFERSON BOULEVARD?
URL please!
Please give website address for these.
They're a combination of materials from John Armstrong's Baylor folders and Mary Ferrell, Ed.
Don't have URL's to hand. I have virtually every Armstrong folder on my hard drive in PDF
form and I grab documents from MFF for storage and that is where I got them from.
This is material I collected from my first foray into this topic.
I downloaded all of the Baylor folders years ago so someone could put them to good use -
- unlike John Armstrong.
I simply screen grab the document from my MacBook and turn it into a JPEG and
upload it to the site.
If I have a chance later I'll see if I can get some URL's.
| February 7, 2015 at 10:18 PM | Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply |
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
The stuff about a bail bondsman earler rang a bell... and I was right.
With a bit of googling I found one of my posts in Lee;s Ed Forum thread.
EXCERPTS FROM: THE MAN WHO SAW TOO MUCH by William Broyles, Texas Monthly,
March, 1976
(Quote marks used where Aynesworth is being quoted)
"That's what he did. He got off the bus here... and ran over to the Greyhound Bus
Station where he caught a cab."Aynesworth should know. He broke the story of Oswald's
escape route.
The visitor is gripped by a vague growing doubt, the first stages of the incurable disease
called Conspiracy Fever, a disease which has inflicted the 80% of the American people
who do not believe Lee Harvey Oswald killed John Kennedy. The best cure for Conspiracy
Fever is Hugh Aynesworth
"...Assassins don't jump on buses. Oswald however, didn't know how to drive. He had only
three choices. One, someone could drive him away. That didn't check out. [What was
done to check it out, and who did it? No one as far as I can tell, but Aynesworth may
know better. GP]... The other choices were a bus or a cab. He took the first of those
two alternatives that came along. That happened to be a bus, which took him right
back to Dealey Plaza. So he jumped off and caught a cab. It may sound strange,
but it's what happened."
A pained expression came over Hugh Aynesworth's face as he spoke into his office
telephone. "Oh no, he's not going to go on the air with that, is he?"
He flicked an ash into an ashtray thoughtfully provided by a bail bondsman and
started leafing through the stacks and stacks of clippings and documents beneath
which one suspected, there lay a desk. "But didn't you tell him Mark Lane has been
passing that story around for ten years?" Aynesworth continued to search through
his desk while he held the receiver cradled with his shoulder.
"No. She's Oswald's landlady. Remember, she told the Commission she
saw him get on a bus the day of the assassination. A year or so later she
was saying she saw Oswald get into a Dallas police car - car 107. But he can't
go on the air with that, Jesus Christ. [Simply awesome. "The Best Cure" just conflated
Bledsoe and Roberts and threw his own spice into the mix for good measure.GP]...
Damn it, how long am I going to have to keep doing this" [debunk conspiracies-GP].
As the police and Aynesworth gingerly went down the aisle, a thin man leaped up,
pointed a pistol at the belly of Nick McDonald and pulled the trigger.
The gun clicked, failed to go off.
Aynsworth's list of firsts... begins with breaking the story on how the assassin
escaped from the scene. Aynesorth and Larry Grove painstakingly reconstructed
the route, resorting to every trick out of 'The Front Page' and a few of their own.
It wasn't easy. The FBI had told witnesses not to discuss what they had seen
with anyone. The break came when Aynesworth and Grove decided Oswald had
to have taken a taxi after he got off the bus at the corner of Lamar and Elm.
Groves and Aynesworth starting taking cabs, endless cabs. They'd pile in, give
some destination, and then begin loudly discussing "Old what's his name, the guy
who gave a ride to that little SOB who shot the President." If the driver didn't rise
to the bait, they'd pull him over, pay him and hail another cab. Grove says they
drove in enough cabs to drive to Mongolia. Eventually one cab driver looked over
his shoulder and said "Oh, you mean Louie." "Yeah, that's right Louie. By the way,
where's old Louie now?" "Ah, he's probably over at the Greyhound station in the line."
So over to the Greyhound station and, after some smooth persuading of Louie, the
escape route was nailed down" [Louie??? Was "William Whaley" such a difficult name
to remember? Reminds me of when Wade seemed to refer to him as Daryl Click...
did anyone else know that Aynesworth was the person who found William/Louie?
I sure didn't know-- GP]
Haven't time to read the rest, so that's all for now. The article can be
found in Google Books.
---------------------------------------------------
What are the chances this is the same bail bondsman referenced earlier by Ed?
| February 7, 2015 at 10:28 PM | Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply |
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
I find it hard to believe that Roy Milton Jones would get his bus mixed up.
He says he got on the bus at 12:10 or 12:15. That is the bus BEFORE McWatters bus.
The 12:10PM LAMAR bus. McWatters is the 12:40 PM LAMAR bus.
Thirty minutes difference. Not 5 minutes. Not 10 minutes.
Not 15 or 20 or 25. 30 minutes. A completely different bus -
- if we all honestly believe that McWatters was driving the 12:40 PM.
I'm not willing to accept he was driving the 12:40 PM bus at this point in time.
There is so much bullshit to cut through before I'm willing to accept that as fact.
I can see plenty of loose ends in the scenario I have proposed but there are about
90% less loose ends in my scenario that exist in the story Joseph Ball and
Cecil McWatters left us with.
| February 7, 2015 at 10:40 PM | Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply |
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
John Mooney at February 7, 2015 at 6:59 PM
"Passengers onboard after Pentagon and Marsalis were now on the Lakewood 23 bus.
Transfers asked for by passengers would now be from a different booklet,
switched over by the driver, punched MARSALIS. "
I don't think transfer would normally be handed out on that route after Lamar.
The idea of transfers is that you change bus in central Dallas... in and out...
like the spokes of a wheel.
That's why the transfer cutter was set in advance to 1.00pm, Lamaar was
the changing point, you had 15 mins to continue your journey on another
bus (presumably nearby in the central hub).,
LAMAR was the "General Transfer Point" for transferring buses DOWNTOWN.
However, as McWatters says, if we can believe a word he says, a
transfer would be accepted anywhere in the downtown section:
Mr. BALL - Can you transfer from your bus to the Beckley bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; sure can.
Mr. BALL - Any particular transfer point?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, there are particular transfer points,
but we don't question anybody within the downtown section with a transfer.
Mr. BALL - If you gave a transfer to your bus, then that transfer would be good on a
Beckley bus any place along Elm, wouldn't it?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right, it sure would.
Mr. BALL - Up to the place where you change courses?
Mr. McWATTERS - It would be accepted; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Your course is westerly on Elm, is identical with that of the
Beckley bus between St. Paul and Houston, isn't it?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.
Mr. BALL - And from that point you go south on Houston, and the
Beckley bus continues west on Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.
Mr. BALL - So that would be a normal transfer point, wouldn't it?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Houston and Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - That would be a transfer.
I'm sure there were other transfer points outside the downtown section and
I'm convinced there is a document on Mary Ferrell that details them.
I'll give a go trying to find it this evening.
EDIT:
From the bus schedule itself we can see that if you were on an early
ABRAMS bus from LAMAR there was a transfer point at ABRAMS &
RAVENDALS for the MOCKINGBIRD HILLS bus:
| February 7, 2015 at 10:46 PM | Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply |
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
Not 10 minutes. Not 15 or 20 or 25. 30 minutes.
Was thinking before about the 12:45 being considered am... and how that might
actually make sense - but only if you bring it back to 12:15... because if for the
sake of convenience, you accept 12 noon as am... then if you give a transfer at
noon that is good for 15 minutes, it makes sense (I Think????) to perhaps extend
to your time stretch to 12:15.
Is it possible then that Cecil added the half hour to make it 12:45 because of the
half hour time difference you point out above? Does adding that half hour alleviate
the issue, or have sucked up too many paint fumes tofday? If I am confusing issues...
ignore... I really don't know... just the half hour thing jumped out at me since I
already had in mind about the 12:15 vs 12:45 issue...
| February 7, 2015 at 10:58 PM | Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply |
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Mr. BALL - I don't quite understand that. Doesn't your p.m. start at after 12 o'clock?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, the way the transfers are there, did you notice how they was,
they run them until--see how 12:45 there, in other words, that is what they use that
up to a.m. in other words.
Mr. BALL - It is 12:45 a.m., it runs up to a.m.
Mr. McWATTERS - That is what they run it to a.m. In other words, after 12:45 or in
there, in other words, everything is punched p.m.
Mr. BALL - In other words, everything in the hour from 12 on is punched a.m., the day
time, 12 to one is a.m., 12 to 12:45, for that hour, a transfer good in that hour is punched
a.m., is that right?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, it can be punched a.m. up to, just like 12:45.
Mr. BALL - And the next punch is 1 o'clock and that is p.m?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is p.m.; yes, sir. That is the way they have them.
So why did McWatters pre-punch?
Because he alway dropped his transfers at Lamar at 12:40 or so.
He would give you an extra 5 minutes and save him from punching
individual tickets (pain in the arse)
So he punched the book PM handed you a transfer at Lamar Punched
PM and Lakewood after 12:40 and
called it good.
| February 7, 2015 at 11:00 PM | Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply |
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
| February 7, 2015 at 11:06 PM |
[/table]
- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Wed 17 Aug 2016, 2:31 pm
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Number 3 is important to understanding of transfers.
They only worked along the run punched, Marsalis 30 or lakewood trasfers would be good
at transfer points for 15 minutes (OR until next bus regardless of time punced) and as Cecil
says downtown just about anywhere
Number 7 asks what buses could one transfer to from Jefferson and Marsalis.
.
February 7, 2015 at 11:07 PM
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Close!!!!!
1 is really PM
The company must back adjust the transfer for a tear at 12:45
This transfer would need to be PM as rider would be boarding at 1PM on another bus....
OR the next bus, regardless of time torn.
and 12:15 12:30 are AM
Otherwise everything before 1 would be AM
Even 12:45
At Baylor I spotted Armstrongs "wrinkled transfer"
http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/34055/rec/258
004459 should have creases!
Another good day tater!
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Ed,
I don't believe for one second that Armstrong saw a wrinkled transfer.
He saw the same damn transfer that's in the photos we have. Perfect.
I don't believe a damn word that Armstrong says any more. He had the same
foundational information that I used when dismantling the bus ride story and he
buried it in his ludicrous Harvey & Lee narrative. He knew Oswald wasn't on that
bus and he knew that Mary Bledsoe wasn't on the bus when she says she was.
I have absolutely no doubts whatsoever that he knew. If he didn't, he's a bigger
idiot than we first imagined.
Rather than pursue it the way I (Greg and Duke) pursued it and how you are now
pursuing it, this clown decided that the information he had collected was better
served in chasing a fucking ghost. Just like the Warren Commission served to
give us information chasing a second ghost - a second Roy Milton Jones -
when there was ony one.
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
I get it now.
If 12:30 in the afternoon was punched PM then you could tear the ticket across the
1:00 o'clock section to get a later transfer out of the ticket. If 12:30 is punched AM
you can't tear across the 1:00 o'clock section and get a later transfer because it
would show 1:00 AM.
So, if I departed a LAKEWOOD bus at LAMAR at 12:30 in the early hours of the morning
and needed a transfer it would be punched PM.
Once again, Joseph Ball et al, FUCK YOU ALL for putting us through this.
So we can scratch out the possibility that this transfer was punched 12:30PM and made
into a 1:00PM transfer because it would have been a 12:30AM transfer had it been given
out before 1:00 PM.
Therefore, now that this is off the table as a possibility two options remain given the way
the evidence was handled.
1. Roy Milton Jones departed Cecil McWatters' bus to see what was going on when the
sirens started and was given a transfer punched 1:00PM he reboarded once he had found
out the President had been shot in the temple. Problem with this scenario is the time
JONES claimed he boarded the bus and also if this scenario were true there would be no
need to not take the booklets from McWatters bus because the transfer would
pan out sequentially.
2. The transfer 0044459 was taken from McWatters' transfer booklet at 6:00pm the
night of 11/22. Problem with this scenario. Nowt. It's the reason why they didn't
take the entire booklet and didn't go and retrieve the transfer receipts from Dallas
Transit because this transfer would not have panned out sequentially.
I'm still sat on the side of the fence where Milton Jones was originally on the 12:10PM
bus and then landed on McWatters bus.
Faroe Islander
Member
Posts: 96
If Lee never was on the bus was he then in Darryl Click´s taxicab ?
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
I don't know, FI.
I know he wasn't in William Whaley's taxi cab. Whaley's story is just
as bad as McWatters/Bledsoe's if not worse. It's certainly more transparent.
I did find an interesting tidbit of information related to the surname Click when
I was researching Marion Meharg. I still stand by this research and believe it is
still an important topic and needs to be tapped into further:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18406
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Are we saying Jones and perhaps Bledsoe and Perhaps suitcase lady got on the
12:10 Lamar bus?
Which then perhaps gets held up in Parade traffic only.... and if that bus doesn't
make it to Record St. before 12:30
then it is going to be stopped, as the motorcade approaches and leaves Dealey
Plaza, and not allowed across Record till some time afterward.
Transfers from such a bus could be torn 12:30 or 12:45.
12:30 AM transfers could be issued from a pre-punched book for this early run.
12:45 PM transfers would not be issued from an AM pre-punched booklet, but could
be from drivers PM pre-punched booklet.
If so they would need to use those transfers to board Cecils bus for the Jones Bledsoe
Suitcase Lady debacle to happen. Yes?
For suitcase lady, that ride would need to be short and she would exit with a transfer,
possibly to another bus, per Bledsoe.
An AM transfer does not match up with 004451 booklet of course because it was issued
by the 12:10 Lamar driver not Cecil.
those transfer punches would not match back up.
An PM transfer could match up with 004451 booklet if punches matched with punch on
the index list the supervisor had with Cecils punch and badge #, but we are NOT shown
this index master list of punch marks and drivers badge numbers...
The "bus schedule" that Cecil provides is more than a year old and does not have a place
on it that identifies Cecil as having made this document, no badge number, nothing on it
says that this was from Cecil other than he brought it in and said he had been doing
that particular run two years straight.
Could be why CE 378 is not a Mcwatter exhibit.
The 2:35 is supposed to be the number of hours he works. Not a time....
He starts at 12:11 and drives till 2:11.
Boldly it says - Turn Signs Marsalis At 2:11
Then he is at Paulus at 2:20
So I would assume reaching St Paul @ 2:35pm by not killing a minute. Then what?
Discharge all pasengers? Swap drivers? Keeps me thinking he did more than 2:35
worth of driving.
FORD Steps In,
Mr. McWATTERS - This is the inside, let's see, this is the driver right here. Here is your
cross seat right here. Here, about back here, is where the lady got off who was
sitting on this seat.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that with an "L"? L = Lady
who got off bus
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here is the first. Right here is where the man that was sitting,
got off, in this seat right here, I believe it is.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that "M" where the man who was sitting also
got off who got the transfer?M = Man got off & transfer
Representative FORD - And the teenager was sitting in what seat?
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that "0"? O =
Teenager/Jones
Representative FORD - Where was the man standing who came to the bus
and said the President had been shot?
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here.
Representative FORD - On the step?
Mr. McWATTERS - On the step. I guess, I presume this would be the second step there.
To the best of my recollection he stepped up on the first step.
Representative FORD - Mark that "P." P = Pres.ShotMan/Temple
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
12Am is the hour covering 12 to 1
But regarding a transfer, 12:45 is PM with 15 minutes till 1PM to use it.
Cecil said he just tore at 1pm
If it was punched 12:45 AM you would be wearing pajamas and sleepwalking cause
that is in the middle of the damn night. And no one is punching your transfer, 12:45AM,
you'd be at home in bed asleep and so would Cecil.
Not rushing to catch a 1am bus.
As Cecil pointed out:
"In other words, if you was to arrive there at, say, 12:50 or
in that vicinity, you always give the passenger the 15 minutes, in
other words, within the hour of the transfer."
He can't cut the transfer for 1:05
There is no 05 to tear it at.
He could adjust it to tear at 1:15.
This gives a rider whom got to Lamar and wanted a transfer at 12:50 full 15
minutes+ rather than at regular time of 12:40 (where 1 O' clock would be torn)
shorting a rider five minutes.
So to overcome shorting a customer Cecil would tear 1pm or LATER on his
transfers. If on time 12:40 at Lamar passengers would get 1pm transfers.
If Cecil is late at Lamar, 12:50 etc., passengers would get transfers cut to the next
minute selection of 15. or 1:15
But from the evidence we can say Cecil got to Lamar by 12:45
Mr. BALL - You let him on the bus, and he paid his fare, how much is that fare?
Mr. McWATTERS - It is 23 cents.
Mr. BALL - 23 cents, and you went about down almost to Poydras.
Mr. McWATTERS - Almost, between Poydras and Lamar.
So no matter where you got on, you paid your 23 cents...which would be the same
as paying from the starting point at St. Paul.
Just you get your full monies worth by starting at St. Paul vs getting on at Record.
Don't know if this makes the case for it being Milton weaker or forces another look
Another LOOK
Where did the OTHER MAN come from??
Senator COOPER - Did anyone tell you, either the police or the FBI or any other
officer or any other person, tell you at the time you made your first affidavit or later
that there was another man reported to have been on your bus and got off?
Mr. McWATTERS - I don't recall.
Hmmm. Selective amnesia?
Senator COOPER - Before you were asked to select a man in the lineup, did the
police or any officer identify any one of them as bearing the name of Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; they never stated anything.
Senator COOPER - Have you seen photographs of a man who is named in
those photographs as being Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS - Have I saw them?
Senator COOPER - Yes, sir.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Well, now, you have seen this young man, Milton Jones,
several times since then?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Now after having seen him several times since then,
and having seen these photographs of the man who is identified as Lee Oswald--
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Senator COOPER - Does Milton Jones look like Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they both, just like I say, about the same height,
and same build, and everything, as far as identifying looking at a man in the
face of course, I know him now, distinctly.
Senator COOPER - But at this time would you identify him as Lee Oswald from
the photographs you have seen of Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS - Right now?
Senator COOPER - Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS - No. At the time, I couldn't then, in other words,
even from the recalling of what I seen him then, I mean just to say that the
height and size of him, no, I wouldn't make the statement that I could now.
So Milton Jones never looked like Oswald other than size even from what Cecil
saw of Oswald in the lineup.
Transfer and envelope http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/34055/rec/258
The collection seems to have what Armstrong had reproduced at national archives,
and he did not get every route map, just the ones in question.
I swear I found them all somewhere. FWIW
I would bet the archives does have a full set somewhere.
Time for a Bledsoe quote:
Mr. BALL - Did she ask for a transfer?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes; she had the man give her one, because she caught
the bus before she got to the train station.
Mr. BALL - How do you know that?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, I saw her.
Mr. BALL - You saw her catch another bus?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - She got on when we did. She rode a block.
This makes sense now.
Bledsoe sees the lady with the suitcase get on.
She is seen getting a transfer. and exiting the bus.
She gets on another Bus. The 12:10 Lamar bus?
Bledsoe sees this.
The new bus is in Bledsoe's sight for one block. It turns, goes straight, went down
Lamar, etc. Bledsoe only sees it for a block.
Or lady rode on the Beckley us which was most likely infront of the Marsalis bus
(see Powell pics)
It would go a block and suitcase lady would have to get off or end up in Oak Cliff.
Or Am I hearing that Bledsoe got off Cecils bus when she did, and rode a block with her.
Or the lady was on Cecils bus for a block before being stopped in traffic per Bledsoe??
This is as hrd to figure out as the rent receipt:
Mr. JENNER - Now, you had a discussion, and you rented the room to him for
$7 for that week?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER - And he paid you then and there?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Uh-huh
Mr. JENNER - In cash?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes; and I gave him a receipt on this book.
Miss DOUTHIT - The only conversation you had with this Mrs.----with this Mr. Oswald
was when he came and rented the room and signed the register?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - And what I got out of him. That's all I could get.
Miss DOUTHIT - Now; did you get any information out of him after he signed the register?
Receipt my eye!!!!!!!!
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Number 3 is important to understanding of transfers.
They only worked along the run punched, Marsalis 30 or lakewood trasfers would be good
at transfer points for 15 minutes (OR until next bus regardless of time punced) and as Cecil
says downtown just about anywhere
Number 7 asks what buses could one transfer to from Jefferson and Marsalis.
February 7, 2015 at 11:07 PM
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
| February 7, 2015 at 11:30 PM | Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply |
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Greg at February 7, 2015 at 10:58 PM
Was thinking before about the 12:45 being considered am... and how that might actuallyNot 10 minutes. Not 15 or 20 or 25. 30 minutes.
make sense - but only if you bring it back to 12:15... because if for the sake of
convenience, you accept 12 noon as am... then if you give a transfer at noon that is
good for 15 minutes, it makes sense (I Think????) to perhaps extend to your time
stretch to 12:15.
Is it possible then that Cecil added the half hour to make it 12:45 because of the half
hour time difference you point out above? Does adding that half hour aleviate the issue,
or have sucked up too many paint fumes tofday? If I am confusing issues... ignore...
I really don't know... just the half hour thing jumped out at me since I already had in
mind about the 12:15 vs 12:45 issue...
Close!!!!!
1 is really PM
The company must back adjust the transfer for a tear at 12:45
This transfer would need to be PM as rider would be boarding at 1PM on another bus....
OR the next bus, regardless of time torn.
and 12:15 12:30 are AM
Otherwise everything before 1 would be AM
Even 12:45
At Baylor I spotted Armstrongs "wrinkled transfer"
http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/34055/rec/258
004459 should have creases!
Another good day tater!
| February 7, 2015 at 11:38 PM | Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply |
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Ed Ledoux at February 7, 2015 at 11:38 PM
Close!!!!!Greg at February 7, 2015 at 10:58 PM
Was thinking before about the 12:45 being considered am... and how that mightNot 10 minutes. Not 15 or 20 or 25. 30 minutes.
actually make sense - but only if you bring it back to 12:15... because if for the
sake of convenience, you accept 12 noon as am... then if you give a transfer at
noon that is good for 15 minutes, it makes sense (I Think????) to perhaps extend
to your time stretch to 12:15.
Is it possible then that Cecil added the half hour to make it 12:45 because of the
half hour time difference you point out above? Does adding that half hour alleviate
the issue, or have sucked up too many paint fumes tofday? If I am confusing issues...
ignore... I really don't know... just the half hour thing jumped out at me since I
already had in mind about the 12:15 vs 12:45 issue...
1 is really PM
The company must back adjust the transfer for a tear at 12:45
This transfer would need to be PM as rider would be boarding at 1PM on another
bus....OR the next bus, regardless of time torn.
and 12:15 12:30 are AM
Otherwise everything before 1 would be AM
Even 12:45
At Baylor I spotted Armstrongs "wrinkled transfer"
http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/34055/rec/258
004459 should have creases!
Another good day tater!
Ed,
I don't believe for one second that Armstrong saw a wrinkled transfer.
He saw the same damn transfer that's in the photos we have. Perfect.
I don't believe a damn word that Armstrong says any more. He had the same
foundational information that I used when dismantling the bus ride story and he
buried it in his ludicrous Harvey & Lee narrative. He knew Oswald wasn't on that
bus and he knew that Mary Bledsoe wasn't on the bus when she says she was.
I have absolutely no doubts whatsoever that he knew. If he didn't, he's a bigger
idiot than we first imagined.
Rather than pursue it the way I (Greg and Duke) pursued it and how you are now
pursuing it, this clown decided that the information he had collected was better
served in chasing a fucking ghost. Just like the Warren Commission served to
give us information chasing a second ghost - a second Roy Milton Jones -
when there was ony one.
| February 8, 2015 at 12:16 AM | Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply |
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Ed Ledoux at February 7, 2015 at 11:38 PM
Close!!!!!Greg at February 7, 2015 at 10:58 PM
Was thinking before about the 12:45 being considered am... and how that mightNot 10 minutes. Not 15 or 20 or 25. 30 minutes.
actually make sense - but only if you bring it back to 12:15... because if for the
sake of convenience, you accept 12 noon as am... then if you give a transfer at
noon that is good for 15 minutes, it makes sense (I Think????) to perhaps extend
to your time stretch to 12:15.
Is it possible then that Cecil added the half hour to make it 12:45 because of the half
hour time difference you point out above? Does adding that half hour alleviate the issue,
or have sucked up too many paint fumes tofday? If I am confusing issues... ignore...
I really don't know... just the half hour thing jumped out at me since I already had in
mind about the 12:15 vs 12:45 issue...
1 is really PM
The company must back adjust the transfer for a tear at 12:45
This transfer would need to be PM as rider would be boarding at 1PM on another
bus....OR the next bus, regardless of time torn.
and 12:15 12:30 are AM
Otherwise everything before 1 would be AM
Even 12:45
At Baylor I spotted Armstrongs "wrinkled transfer"
http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/34055/rec/258
004459 should have creases!
Another good day tater!
I get it now.
If 12:30 in the afternoon was punched PM then you could tear the ticket across the
1:00 o'clock section to get a later transfer out of the ticket. If 12:30 is punched AM
you can't tear across the 1:00 o'clock section and get a later transfer because it
would show 1:00 AM.
So, if I departed a LAKEWOOD bus at LAMAR at 12:30 in the early hours of the morning
and needed a transfer it would be punched PM.
Once again, Joseph Ball et al, FUCK YOU ALL for putting us through this.
So we can scratch out the possibility that this transfer was punched 12:30PM and made
into a 1:00PM transfer because it would have been a 12:30AM transfer had it been given
out before 1:00 PM.
Therefore, now that this is off the table as a possibility two options remain given the way
the evidence was handled.
1. Roy Milton Jones departed Cecil McWatters' bus to see what was going on when the
sirens started and was given a transfer punched 1:00PM he reboarded once he had found
out the President had been shot in the temple. Problem with this scenario is the time
JONES claimed he boarded the bus and also if this scenario were true there would be no
need to not take the booklets from McWatters bus because the transfer would
pan out sequentially.
2. The transfer 0044459 was taken from McWatters' transfer booklet at 6:00pm the
night of 11/22. Problem with this scenario. Nowt. It's the reason why they didn't
take the entire booklet and didn't go and retrieve the transfer receipts from Dallas
Transit because this transfer would not have panned out sequentially.
I'm still sat on the side of the fence where Milton Jones was originally on the 12:10PM
bus and then landed on McWatters bus.
| February 8, 2015 at 12:38 AM | Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply |
Faroe Islander
Member
Posts: 96
If Lee never was on the bus was he then in Darryl Click´s taxicab ?
| February 8, 2015 at 6:35 AM | Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply |
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Faroe Islander at February 8, 2015 at 6:35 AM
If Lee never was on the bus was he then in Darryl Click´s taxicab ?
I don't know, FI.
I know he wasn't in William Whaley's taxi cab. Whaley's story is just
as bad as McWatters/Bledsoe's if not worse. It's certainly more transparent.
I did find an interesting tidbit of information related to the surname Click when
I was researching Marion Meharg. I still stand by this research and believe it is
still an important topic and needs to be tapped into further:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18406
| February 8, 2015 at 6:58 AM | Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply |
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 7, 2015 at 10:40 PM
I find it hard to believe that Roy Milton Jones would get his bus mixed up.
He says he got on the bus at 12:10 or 12:15. That is the bus BEFORE McWatters bus.
The 12:10PM LAMAR bus. McWatters is the 12:40 PM LAMAR bus.
Thirty minutes difference. Not 5 minutes. Not 10 minutes. Not 15 or 20 or 25.
30 minutes. A completely different bus - - if we all honestly believe that McWatters
was driving the 12:40 PM. I'm not willing to accept he was driving the 12:40 PM bus
at this point in time.
There is so much bullshit to cut through before I'm willing to accept that as fact.
I can see plenty of loose ends in the scenario I have proposed but there are about
90% less loose ends in my scenario that exist in the story Joseph Ball and Cecil
McWatters left us with.
Are we saying Jones and perhaps Bledsoe and Perhaps suitcase lady got on the
12:10 Lamar bus?
Which then perhaps gets held up in Parade traffic only.... and if that bus doesn't
make it to Record St. before 12:30
then it is going to be stopped, as the motorcade approaches and leaves Dealey
Plaza, and not allowed across Record till some time afterward.
Transfers from such a bus could be torn 12:30 or 12:45.
12:30 AM transfers could be issued from a pre-punched book for this early run.
12:45 PM transfers would not be issued from an AM pre-punched booklet, but could
be from drivers PM pre-punched booklet.
If so they would need to use those transfers to board Cecils bus for the Jones Bledsoe
Suitcase Lady debacle to happen. Yes?
For suitcase lady, that ride would need to be short and she would exit with a transfer,
possibly to another bus, per Bledsoe.
An AM transfer does not match up with 004451 booklet of course because it was issued
by the 12:10 Lamar driver not Cecil.
those transfer punches would not match back up.
An PM transfer could match up with 004451 booklet if punches matched with punch on
the index list the supervisor had with Cecils punch and badge #, but we are NOT shown
this index master list of punch marks and drivers badge numbers...
The "bus schedule" that Cecil provides is more than a year old and does not have a place
on it that identifies Cecil as having made this document, no badge number, nothing on it
says that this was from Cecil other than he brought it in and said he had been doing
that particular run two years straight.
Could be why CE 378 is not a Mcwatter exhibit.
The 2:35 is supposed to be the number of hours he works. Not a time....
He starts at 12:11 and drives till 2:11.
Boldly it says - Turn Signs Marsalis At 2:11
Then he is at Paulus at 2:20
So I would assume reaching St Paul @ 2:35pm by not killing a minute. Then what?
Discharge all pasengers? Swap drivers? Keeps me thinking he did more than 2:35
worth of driving.
FORD Steps In,
Mr. McWATTERS - This is the inside, let's see, this is the driver right here. Here is your
cross seat right here. Here, about back here, is where the lady got off who was
sitting on this seat.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that with an "L"? L = Lady
who got off bus
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here is the first. Right here is where the man that was sitting,
got off, in this seat right here, I believe it is.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that "M" where the man who was sitting also
got off who got the transfer?M = Man got off & transfer
Representative FORD - And the teenager was sitting in what seat?
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that "0"? O =
Teenager/Jones
Representative FORD - Where was the man standing who came to the bus
and said the President had been shot?
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here.
Representative FORD - On the step?
Mr. McWATTERS - On the step. I guess, I presume this would be the second step there.
To the best of my recollection he stepped up on the first step.
Representative FORD - Mark that "P." P = Pres.ShotMan/Temple
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
12Am is the hour covering 12 to 1
But regarding a transfer, 12:45 is PM with 15 minutes till 1PM to use it.
Cecil said he just tore at 1pm
If it was punched 12:45 AM you would be wearing pajamas and sleepwalking cause
that is in the middle of the damn night. And no one is punching your transfer, 12:45AM,
you'd be at home in bed asleep and so would Cecil.
Not rushing to catch a 1am bus.
As Cecil pointed out:
"In other words, if you was to arrive there at, say, 12:50 or
in that vicinity, you always give the passenger the 15 minutes, in
other words, within the hour of the transfer."
He can't cut the transfer for 1:05
There is no 05 to tear it at.
He could adjust it to tear at 1:15.
This gives a rider whom got to Lamar and wanted a transfer at 12:50 full 15
minutes+ rather than at regular time of 12:40 (where 1 O' clock would be torn)
shorting a rider five minutes.
So to overcome shorting a customer Cecil would tear 1pm or LATER on his
transfers. If on time 12:40 at Lamar passengers would get 1pm transfers.
If Cecil is late at Lamar, 12:50 etc., passengers would get transfers cut to the next
minute selection of 15. or 1:15
But from the evidence we can say Cecil got to Lamar by 12:45
Mr. BALL - You let him on the bus, and he paid his fare, how much is that fare?
Mr. McWATTERS - It is 23 cents.
Mr. BALL - 23 cents, and you went about down almost to Poydras.
Mr. McWATTERS - Almost, between Poydras and Lamar.
So no matter where you got on, you paid your 23 cents...which would be the same
as paying from the starting point at St. Paul.
Just you get your full monies worth by starting at St. Paul vs getting on at Record.
Don't know if this makes the case for it being Milton weaker or forces another look
Another LOOK
Where did the OTHER MAN come from??
Senator COOPER - Did anyone tell you, either the police or the FBI or any other
officer or any other person, tell you at the time you made your first affidavit or later
that there was another man reported to have been on your bus and got off?
Mr. McWATTERS - I don't recall.
Hmmm. Selective amnesia?
Senator COOPER - Before you were asked to select a man in the lineup, did the
police or any officer identify any one of them as bearing the name of Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; they never stated anything.
Senator COOPER - Have you seen photographs of a man who is named in
those photographs as being Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS - Have I saw them?
Senator COOPER - Yes, sir.
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Well, now, you have seen this young man, Milton Jones,
several times since then?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Now after having seen him several times since then,
and having seen these photographs of the man who is identified as Lee Oswald--
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Senator COOPER - Does Milton Jones look like Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they both, just like I say, about the same height,
and same build, and everything, as far as identifying looking at a man in the
face of course, I know him now, distinctly.
Senator COOPER - But at this time would you identify him as Lee Oswald from
the photographs you have seen of Lee Oswald?
Mr. McWATTERS - Right now?
Senator COOPER - Yes.
Mr. McWATTERS - No. At the time, I couldn't then, in other words,
even from the recalling of what I seen him then, I mean just to say that the
height and size of him, no, I wouldn't make the statement that I could now.
So Milton Jones never looked like Oswald other than size even from what Cecil
saw of Oswald in the lineup.
Transfer and envelope http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/34055/rec/258
The collection seems to have what Armstrong had reproduced at national archives,
and he did not get every route map, just the ones in question.
I swear I found them all somewhere. FWIW
I would bet the archives does have a full set somewhere.
Time for a Bledsoe quote:
Mr. BALL - Did she ask for a transfer?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes; she had the man give her one, because she caught
the bus before she got to the train station.
Mr. BALL - How do you know that?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, I saw her.
Mr. BALL - You saw her catch another bus?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - She got on when we did. She rode a block.
This makes sense now.
Bledsoe sees the lady with the suitcase get on.
She is seen getting a transfer. and exiting the bus.
She gets on another Bus. The 12:10 Lamar bus?
Bledsoe sees this.
The new bus is in Bledsoe's sight for one block. It turns, goes straight, went down
Lamar, etc. Bledsoe only sees it for a block.
Or lady rode on the Beckley us which was most likely infront of the Marsalis bus
(see Powell pics)
It would go a block and suitcase lady would have to get off or end up in Oak Cliff.
Or Am I hearing that Bledsoe got off Cecils bus when she did, and rode a block with her.
Or the lady was on Cecils bus for a block before being stopped in traffic per Bledsoe??
This is as hrd to figure out as the rent receipt:
Mr. JENNER - Now, you had a discussion, and you rented the room to him for
$7 for that week?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER - And he paid you then and there?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Uh-huh
Mr. JENNER - In cash?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes; and I gave him a receipt on this book.
Miss DOUTHIT - The only conversation you had with this Mrs.----with this Mr. Oswald
was when he came and rented the room and signed the register?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - And what I got out of him. That's all I could get.
Miss DOUTHIT - Now; did you get any information out of him after he signed the register?
Receipt my eye!!!!!!!!
- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Wed 17 Aug 2016, 2:57 pm
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Not 10 minutes. Not 15 or 20 or 25. 30 minutes.
Was thinking before about the 12:45 being considered am... and how that might actually make sense - but only if you bring it back to 12:15... because if for the sake of convenience, you accept 12 noon as am... then if you give a transfer at noon that is good for 15 minutes, it makes sense (I Think????) to perhaps extend to your time stretch to 12:15.
Is it possible then that Cecil added the half hour to make it 12:45 because of the half hour time difference you point out above? Does adding that half hour alleviate the issue, or have sucked up too many paint fumes tofday? If I am confusing issues... ignore... I really don't know... just the half hour thing jumped out at me since I already had in mind about the 12:15 vs 12:45 issue...
Close!!!!!
1 is really PM
The company must back adjust the transfer for a tear at 12:45
This transfer would need to be PM as rider would be boarding at 1PM on another bus....OR the next bus, regardless of time torn.
and 12:15 12:30 are AM
Otherwise everything before 1 would be AM
Even 12:45
At Baylor I spotted Armstrongs "wrinkled transfer"
http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/34055/rec/258
004459 should have creases!
Another good day tater!
Ed,
I don't believe for one second that Armstrong saw a wrinkled transfer. He saw the same damn transfer that's in the photos we have. Perfect.
I don't believe a damn word that Armstrong says any more. He had the same foundational information that I used when dismantling the bus ride story and he buried it in his ludicrous Harvey & Lee narrative. He knew Oswald wasn't on that bus and he knew that Mary Bledsoe wasn't on the bus when she says she was. I have absolutley no doubts whatsoever that he knew. If he didn't, he's a bigger idiot than we first imagined.
Rather than pursue it the way I (Greg and Duke) pursued it and how you are now pursuing it, this clown decided that the information he had collected was better served in chasing a fucking ghost. Just like the Warren Commission served to give us information chasing a second ghost - a second Roy Milton Jones - when there was ony one.
Correct, Armstrong saw the document which says the Archivist said it, 004459 had creases from folding.
He never saw a wrinkled transfer.
He thought he did. Which is odd. Unlike myself whom did see a wrinkled transfer but it was a History Channel fraud.
Where is original of 004451 though.
It was prepared to show the bus and cab drivers for their testimony.
It was never introduced.
Nothing odd there, Warren Commission business as usual
February 8, 2015 at 1:04 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
FORD Steps In,
Mr. McWATTERS - This is the inside, let's see, this is the driver right here. Here is your cross seat right here. Here, about back here, is where the lady got off who was sitting on this seat.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that with an "L"? L = Lady who got off bus
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here is the first. Right here is where the man that was sitting, got off, in this seat right here, I believe it is.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that "M" where the man who was sitting also got off who got the transfer?M = Man got off & transfer
Representative FORD - And the teenager was sitting in what seat?
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that "0"? O = Teenager/Jones
Representative FORD - Where was the man standing who came to the bus and said the President had been shot?
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here.
Representative FORD - On the step?
Mr. McWATTERS - On the step. I guess, I presume this would be the second step there. To the best of my recollection he stepped up on the first step.
Representative FORD - Mark that "P." P = Pres.ShotMan/Temple
Ford steps in
and he steps right out
he does the hokey-pokey
and he shakes it all about.
The designations are not in alpha order (there is no "n")
So... we can see "L" stands for Lady
"M" stands for (unidentified) Man
"P" stands for (unidentified) Person with news on President
Therefore... in Fordspeak... "O" cannot stand for "Teenager/Jones". Ford is surely saying that this is Oswald?
February 8, 2015 at 1:20 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 8, 2015 at 12:38 AM
Ed Ledoux at February 7, 2015 at 11:38 PM
Greg at February 7, 2015 at 10:58 PM
Not 10 minutes. Not 15 or 20 or 25. 30 minutes.
Was thinking before about the 12:45 being considered am... and how that might actually make sense - but only if you bring it back to 12:15... because if for the sake of convenience, you accept 12 noon as am... then if you give a transfer at noon that is good for 15 minutes, it makes sense (I Think????) to perhaps extend to your time stretch to 12:15.
Is it possible then that Cecil added the half hour to make it 12:45 because of the half hour time difference you point out above? Does adding that half hour aleviate the issue, or have sucked up too many paint fumes tofday? If I am confusing issues... ignore... I really don't know... just the half hour thing jumped out at me since I already had in mind about the 12:15 vs 12:45 issue...
Close!!!!!
1 is really PM
The company must back adjust the transfer for a tear at 12:45
This transfer would need to be PM as rider would be boarding at 1PM on another bus....OR the next bus, regardless of time torn.
and 12:15 12:30 are AM
Otherwise everything before 1 would be AM
Even 12:45
At Baylor I spotted Armstrongs "wrinkled transfer"
http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/34055/rec/258
004459 should have creases!
Another good day tater!
I get it now.
If 12:30 in the afternoon was punched PM then you could tear the ticket across the 1:00 o'clock section to get a later transfer out of the ticket. If 12:30 is punched AM you can't tear across the 1:00 o'clock section and get a later transfer because it would show 1:00 AM.
So, if I departed a LAKEWOOD bus at LAMAR at 12:30 in the early hours of the morning and needed a transfer it would be punched PM.
Once again, Joseph Ball et al, FUCK YOU ALL for putting us through this.
So we can scratch out the possibility that this transfer was punched 12:30PM and made into a 1:00PM transfer because it would have been a 12:30AM transfer had it been given out before 1:00 PM.
Therefore, now that this is off the table as a possibility two options remain given the way the evidence was handled.
1. Roy Milton Jones departed Cecil McWatters' bus to see what was going on when the sirens started and was given a transfer punched 1:00PM he reboarded once he had found out the President had been shot in the temple. Problem with this scenario is the time JONES claimed he boarded the bus and also if this scenario were true there would be no need to not take the booklets from McWatters bus because the transfer would pan out sequentially.
2. The transfer 0044459 was taken from McWatters' transfer booklet at 6:00pm the night of 11/22. Problem with this scenario. Nowt. It's the reason why they didn't take the entire booklet and didn't go and retrieve the transfer receipts from Dallas Transit because this transfer would not have panned out sequentially.
I'm still sat on the side of the fence where Milton Jones was originally on the 12:10PM bus and then landed on McWatters bus.
Yes Milton gets on the 12:10 which get stuck before Houston or Record. The shooting happens.
Milton Jones wants to go see the comotion gets a transfer from the 12:10 bus at 12:30, punched as such, and runs down Elm a block to watch.
The 12:10 in the left lane gets through traffic, and is able to turn and is gone down Houston a bit after 12:30pm.
Milton seeing the traffic moving runs back down Elm, the 12:10 bus is gone, but he sees the 12:40 bus.
Milton runs up bangs on the door, not wanting to miss that bus, and gives the driver (Cecil) the transfer.
Sits in the first row of front facing seats. yada yada
Problem: Should be an AM punched transfer. from the 12:10 bus.
Solution: Milton steps off 12:10 bus forgetting to ask for a transfer. Bus takes off and Milton runs back and catches 12:40.
Problem: Milton mentions nothing of the sort. Driver says man got on mid block at Murphy. Even if Man and Milton are the same, the man exits and Milton rides to Marsalis for the laughing scenario.
More general Problems:
Transfer 004459 is PM, it was never dusted or chemically processed for fingerprints.
We only have Sims word he found the transfer in LHO's pocket.
We don't have evidence of Sims prints on the transfer to verify such. We do have a sworn statement, initials on the back, and testimony.
Odd that it was carefully placed in a evidence envelope flown to DC, given a lab number, but was only photographed by the exhibits section of the FBI and no "lab" work was done.
Therefore there is really only circumstantial evidence it is found on LHO or that LHO placed that transfer in that shirt pocket.
Sims and Boyd alone in the holding room search LHO.
Boyd doesn't know where Sims found the transfer on LHO.
Boyd was busy finding bullets in a pocket previously searched at the theater. oy vey
February 8, 2015 at 2:16 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Ed Ledoux at February 8, 2015 at 11:53 AM
Now recall the testimony I put up from Cecil about the Lady standing and paying her fare when she got on.
While she was paying Cecil said that is where the conversation about the shooting/laughing took place.
M would have gotten off asking for a transfer while L was boarding and paying , she may too have asked for a transfer then
The conversation happens next.
It is Cecil, O and L at this time having a "laugh". No M and no P.
P can not have had a conversation about the shooting with Cecil and O while L was on board seated in a seat.
L should not be on the bus yet. L should board across Marsalis Bridge and then hear the Laughing Conversation.
Ford is using this diagram as a SNAPSHOT in time.
Representative FORD - Now, after the man who was standing at "P" said the President was shot, what did the lady do who was sitting in "L"?
Ford has LMOP all on the bus at the same time
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, the lady, she had a suitcase sitting right there beside me and she left. When the lady got up and said she would like to get off the bus, and that she was going to walk to the Union Station and asked me if I would give her a transfer in case that I caught up with her, and asked me if I would pick her up.
Representative FORD - You gave her a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - What happened?
Mr. McWATTERS - She got off and by the time when she was talking to me that is when he got up, this gentleman here in the seat got up, at seat "M" got off. In other words, the door was never closed of the bus from the time the gentleman stepped up in the door of that there, in other words, when he said what he did, and got on back in his car, in other words, the lady got off, and the man got off, too, both at the same stop.In other words, the bus hadn't moved at that stop.
REAAALLLLYYY!!
Ford has the P guy telling Cecil and the L lady about the shooting!!!
Cecil was supposed to be telling the lady about it. (Bledsoe whom is not on the bus)
L is getting off with a suitcase not hanging around for the Cecil and Milton show.
Although L would be standing to get off she may have not heard P or was distracted by her suitcase, it safe to say anything said to Cecil from spot P should be heard by both L and Cecil equally. Was P whispering to Cecil so as not to upset passengers?
This diagram and story would work if L gets off after P says the presidents been shot, and M also exits, the bus with just O stays on for drive across Marsalis Bridge and pick up of Bledsoe, where O and Cecil have a laugh while Bledsoe pays her fare. Back to our
Armstongs notes has Cecil saying P came up and told him the presidents been shot after he crossed Marsalis.
and she would be doing a transaction, getting a transfer (not paying)
Mr. BALL - Tell me when you issued it, on what run?
Mr. McWATTERS - I issued it on Marsalis and Munger line at I would say, around to the best of my knowledge it would be around 12:40 or somewheres in that vicinity on November 22.
So options are 12:45 PM transfer being retorn to show 1 0'clock pm (which is why drivers just skip to 1pm)
A 1pm transfer from the 12:40 Lamar bus
A really late 12:10 Lamar bus, with AM transfers, driver may have a PM book, and issues a 12:45 - 1PM transfer, or that driver is new and tears off, and then punches every transfer from a book individually (rookie)
Although in Cecils famous video the transfers were not punched at all. A faulty demonstration or whistle blower?
Okay back to our diagram!!
Mrs. BLEDSOE - And I first got off at Neiman's and I---the parade didn't come on, and I kept walking on up, and walked in front of Titche's over on that side there, and I saw the parade there. He passed--I saw the President, oh, I was happy I got to see him. And--so then I got on across and went over to the Athletic Club, and caught the bus. Athletic Club closed in '54, and moved but in '63 the building housed Mr. Mc Lean, a hair expert of Jack Ruby's, at 1805 Elm at St.Paul.
Mr. BALL - What bus did you catch?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, I don't remember whether it was the Marsalis or the Romana. Ramona bus at Lamar would be 12:30. That bus is very close to Cecil's in Time And Route.
Mr. BALL - Both go by your house, do they? What was the last one?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - The Marsalis.
Mr. BALL - What was the second name?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Romana.
Mr. BALL - And both go west on Elm?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Right--so, I got on the bus, and while it was awfully crowded there----
Mr. BALL - You mean crowded on the bus?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No; outside.
Mr. BALL - Were there many people on the bus?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No.
Mr. BALL - How many people on the bus?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Oh, about 10.
Mr. BALL - And what was the location on Elm where you boarded this bus?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - At the Athletic Club.
Mr. BALL - What cross street is that, do you remember?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - St. Paul.
Mr. BALL - St. Paul? You got on at St. Paul? St. Paul and Elm?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Uh-huh.
Mr. BALL - And the bus was going in what direction?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - West.
Mr. BALL - All right, now, tell me what happened?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - And, after we got past Akard, at Murphy---I figured it out. Let's see. I don't know for sure. Oswald got on. He looks like a maniac. His sleeve was out here [indicating]. His shirt was undone.
Mr. BALL - You are indicating a sleeve of a shirt?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.
Mr. BALL - It was unraveled?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Was a hole in it, hole, and he was dirty, and I didn't look at him. I didn't want to know 1 even seen him, and I just looked off, and then about that time the motorman said the President had been shot, and I sit--when I go to town I sit this way on the bus. The motorman is right there [indicating], and I sit right there so that I can get off. She is saying what Cecil said, that she got on was paying her fare (Standing)
Mr. BALL - You mean--where do you sit with reference to the motorman, one seat or two seats behind him?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - I don't--the motorman is here, and I sit across in the seat across the way.
Mr. BALL - Now, on this day when you boarded the bus, is that the seat you took?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - I always did.
Mr. BALL - Would that be the first seat on the right-hand side?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.
Mr. BALL - First seat on the bus?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well----
Miss DOUTHIT - Side seat.
Mr. BALL - Oh, it is a side seat? Was that side seat so that you were facing the motorman?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Uh-huh.
Mr. BALL - When Oswald got on, you then weren't facing him, were you?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No; but I saw that it was him.
Mr. BALL - How close did he pass to you as he boarded the bus?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Just in front of me. Just like this [indicating].
Mr. BALL - Just a matter of a foot or two?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Uh-huh.
Mr. BALL - When he got on the bus, did he say anything to the motorman?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Oh, the motorman? I think--I don't know. I don't know.
Mr. BALL - Where did he sit?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - He sat about halfway back down.
Mr. BALL - On what side?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - On the same side I was on.
Mr. BALL - Same side
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No, sir.
OKAY WHERE IS THE DIAGRAM, THE ONE ABOVE, THE ONE SHE COULD HAVE SHOWN WITH A LETTER LIKE N WHERE SHE WAS, AND ANOTHER LETTER FOR HER OSWALD PERHAPS Q....
BALL FORGOT HE COULD USE IT?
DIAGRAM IS TOO CONFUSING FOR BLEDSOE OR BALL?
Douthit refused to admit any Bledsoe exhibits?....sound familiar? Mrs. Paine and her should join a Calendar Club!!
February 8, 2015 at 4:27 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Greg at February 8, 2015 at 1:20 PM
FORD Steps In,
Mr. McWATTERS - This is the inside, let's see, this is the driver right here. Here is your cross seat right here. Here, about back here, is where the lady got off who was sitting on this seat.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that with an "L"? L = Lady who got off bus
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here is the first. Right here is where the man that was sitting, got off, in this seat right here, I believe it is.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that "M" where the man who was sitting also got off who got the transfer?M = Man got off & transfer
Representative FORD - And the teenager was sitting in what seat?
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that "0"? O = Teenager/Jones
Representative FORD - Where was the man standing who came to the bus and said the President had been shot?
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here.
Representative FORD - On the step?
Mr. McWATTERS - On the step. I guess, I presume this would be the second step there. To the best of my recollection he stepped up on the first step.
Representative FORD - Mark that "P." P = Pres.ShotMan/Temple
Ford steps in
and he steps right out
he does the hokey-pokey
and he shakes it all about.
The designations are not in alpha order (there is no "n")
So... we can see "L" stands for Lady
"M" stands for (unidentified) Man
"P" stands for (unidentified) Person with news on President
Therefore... in Fordspeak... "O" cannot stand for "Teenager/Jones". Ford is surely saying that this is Oswald?
I wondered what Ford was trying to spell...Didn't think he was cheer leading....Gimme An O!
O for Oswald would be logical.
Okay let me re-do this part.
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Was a hole in it, hole, and he was dirty, and I didn't look at him. I didn't want to know I even seen him, and I just looked off, and then about that time the motorman said the President had been shot, and I sit--when I go to town I sit this way on the bus. The motorman is right there [indicating], and I sit right there so that I can get off.
She is saying that Cecil said the president has been shot as O or Oswald is getting on, and that it sounds like she is remembering she got on was paying her fare (Standing) and then sat (sit) down, explaining why she 'sit' there after she heard the President had been shot, so she could off quickly, and run to the neighbors to tell them.
Mr. BALL - Do you remember anyone knocking on the door, and as a result, the motorman opened the front door?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No.
Mr. BALL - Would that be the first seat on the right-hand side?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.
She is right next to the door! Unless she is across the bridge when she gets on and is not there for the door knocking episode.
Oy Vey.
Mr. BALL - Is there a bus stop near your home?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Right in front of the house.
February 8, 2015 at 5:05 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
The other option was the one Lee or Greg pointed out way back when, that the suitcase lady was the Marsalis Bridge lady whom was crossing the street with a package.
Mr. BALL - You went on over to Houston Viaduct into the Oak Cliff section, didn't you?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; to the Oak Cliff section.
Mr. BALL - And there was some conversation occurred on that bus that you told the FBI officers about?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Tell us what that was?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, there was a teenage boy, I would say 17 or 18 years of age who was sitting to my right on the first cross seat and me and him had, we had conversationed a little while we was tied up in the traffic, you know, of the fact of we wondered where all, what all the excitement was due to the fact of the sirens and others, and after I turned on Houston Street I said to him and I made the remark, I wonder where the President was shot, and I believe he made the remark that it was probably in the head if he was in a convertible or something to that effect. I don't remember just exactly the way we worded it or what it was, but it was a conversation about the President, in other words, to where he was shot. In other words, and he made the remark or something, he was probably shot in the head, if he was sitting in a convertible or to that effect. I really don't know just exactly at that time. Just like I say I never thought anything about it.
Mr. BALL - Didn't some lady say something?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, yes, sir.
Now, as we got on out on Marsalis, along about it was either Edgemont or Vermont, I believe it was Vermont Street, there was a lady who was fixing to cross the intersection and I stopped and asked her if she was going to catch the bus into town from the opposite direction, and she said that she was and I told her that we was off schedule,
He saw the 12:10 had gone by him already
that the other bus had done went into town, and I asked her did she care to just ride on to the end of the line and come back and she wouldn't have to stand there and wait, and she was getting on, and I asked her had she heard the news of the President being shot, at the time that was all I knew about it, and she said, "No, what are you--you are just kidding me."
I said, "No, I really am not kidding you." I said, "It is the truth from all the reliable sources that we have come in contact with," and this teenage boy sitting on the side, I said "Well, now, if you think I am kidding you," I said, "Ask this gentleman sitting over here," and he kind of, I don't know whether it was a grinning or smile or whatever expression it was, and she said, "I know you are kidding now, because he laughed or grinned or made some remark to that effect."
And I just told her no it wasn't no kidding matter, but that was part of the conversation that was said at that time.
Conversation takes place with a woman boarding a bus whom was crossing the street about Vermont whom must have had a suitcase, meaning she was catching a bus/cab, or she empty handed walked across to the stop inbound when Cecil spoke to her probably from his bus window. This is too far down Marsalis to be near Bledsoes residence. Not Bledsoe.
But it is about 12 blocks farther down the run to BrownleeSt., where Milton would exit the bus.
So Milton the Vermont lady and Cecil have a Laugh. Only way Mary Bledsoe would know is if she missed her drop off or was inbound from her house and the stop right outside, she too would ride to the end of the line and come back.
Where does that leave us, was Mary downtown, did she ride a bus, did she ride a 12:30 Ramona, or a 12:40 Marsalis?
If the Ramona, how did she know about the laughing boy, I realized the DPD told her about the transfer, but did she learn everything about Cecils bus trip through the DPD "questioning" ? Good question. Was Douthit there? j/k
What makes sense is Cecil in his first day statement after 6:30pm, he said he picked up a man about a block from Houston and went out Marsalis where he picked up a woman, had a conversation where man aka Milton grins, to which she says its not a grinning matter which Cecil would parrot back.
http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338154/m1/1/
It says transfer 004459 is from his bus, and has his punch, but mentions nothing about whom if anyone he gave that or any transfers to.
And it does say shot in the TEMPLE.
Mary in her first day affidavit said : http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339150/m1/1/?q=mary%20bledsoe
That the bus she rode made a stop at Murphy street. The Man / Oswald got on rode two three blocks.
By connecting the broken english I read, 'During the time the bus was stopped someone made statement the president had been shot. While stopped in heavy traffic the Man/Oswald gets off.
She knows him because he lived at her house.
Not that he rented a room, or was a renter, room mate or tenant, but lived at my house.
But she just happens to know those dates for those two weeks he "lived" at her house so perfectly its as if she had her calendar there to show Patsy Collins.
http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339150/m1/1/?q=mary%20bledsoe
February 8, 2015 at 6:59 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
John Mooney
Member
Posts: 48
Is this the worst getaway in history?
Walk seven blocks observing the commotion, the road blocks, the stopped traffic... and get on a stopped bus heading back into all that.
He was never on that bus.
February 8, 2015 at 7:16 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
The other option was the one Lee or Greg pointed out way back when,
Not this little black duck, Ed. I haven't contributed anything but my own beffuddlement, mixed with awe for the rest of you.
that the suitcase lady was the Marsalis Bridge lady whom was crossing the street with a package.
I don't suppose she was on her way to Randle residence by any chance?
February 8, 2015 at 8:04 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
John Mooney at February 8, 2015 at 7:16 PM
Is this the worst getaway in history?
Walk seven blocks observing the commotion, the road blocks, the stopped traffic... and get on a stopped bus heading back into all that.
He was never on that bus.
A fine line between madness and genius... who would suspect someone on a bus driving into the eye of the storm?
But otherwsie yer right, John. No way no how on that bus.
February 8, 2015 at 8:06 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
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Posts: 1104
http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340552/m1/1/?q=mcwatters
In the hand written affidavit, Lee pointed out, Mcwatters had down as Marsalis for drop off of Man / Milton M.
"...but I believe I let him of at Marsalis..."
Here he is unsure but remembers letting someone off there. If not the man who?
Is it Marsalis and Houston Viaduct area? or ON Marsalis he would have made a stop.
But the man is Milton, so he scratches out Marsalis, and would not know Milton lived on Brownlee till next ride with Milton.
Bledsoe must be on the Ramona bus.
Why is she not asked where she got off?
We know she rode a bus downtown, right?
Mr. BALL - The 22d of November the President came to Dallas.
Mrs. BLEDSOE - And I first got off at Neiman's
Sounds to me like she would have gotten a SHOPPERS TRANSFER!!!
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Not 10 minutes. Not 15 or 20 or 25. 30 minutes.
Was thinking before about the 12:45 being considered am... and how that might actually make sense - but only if you bring it back to 12:15... because if for the sake of convenience, you accept 12 noon as am... then if you give a transfer at noon that is good for 15 minutes, it makes sense (I Think????) to perhaps extend to your time stretch to 12:15.
Is it possible then that Cecil added the half hour to make it 12:45 because of the half hour time difference you point out above? Does adding that half hour alleviate the issue, or have sucked up too many paint fumes tofday? If I am confusing issues... ignore... I really don't know... just the half hour thing jumped out at me since I already had in mind about the 12:15 vs 12:45 issue...
Close!!!!!
1 is really PM
The company must back adjust the transfer for a tear at 12:45
This transfer would need to be PM as rider would be boarding at 1PM on another bus....OR the next bus, regardless of time torn.
and 12:15 12:30 are AM
Otherwise everything before 1 would be AM
Even 12:45
At Baylor I spotted Armstrongs "wrinkled transfer"
http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/34055/rec/258
004459 should have creases!
Another good day tater!
Ed,
I don't believe for one second that Armstrong saw a wrinkled transfer. He saw the same damn transfer that's in the photos we have. Perfect.
I don't believe a damn word that Armstrong says any more. He had the same foundational information that I used when dismantling the bus ride story and he buried it in his ludicrous Harvey & Lee narrative. He knew Oswald wasn't on that bus and he knew that Mary Bledsoe wasn't on the bus when she says she was. I have absolutley no doubts whatsoever that he knew. If he didn't, he's a bigger idiot than we first imagined.
Rather than pursue it the way I (Greg and Duke) pursued it and how you are now pursuing it, this clown decided that the information he had collected was better served in chasing a fucking ghost. Just like the Warren Commission served to give us information chasing a second ghost - a second Roy Milton Jones - when there was ony one.
Correct, Armstrong saw the document which says the Archivist said it, 004459 had creases from folding.
He never saw a wrinkled transfer.
He thought he did. Which is odd. Unlike myself whom did see a wrinkled transfer but it was a History Channel fraud.
Where is original of 004451 though.
It was prepared to show the bus and cab drivers for their testimony.
It was never introduced.
Nothing odd there, Warren Commission business as usual
February 8, 2015 at 1:04 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
FORD Steps In,
Mr. McWATTERS - This is the inside, let's see, this is the driver right here. Here is your cross seat right here. Here, about back here, is where the lady got off who was sitting on this seat.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that with an "L"? L = Lady who got off bus
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here is the first. Right here is where the man that was sitting, got off, in this seat right here, I believe it is.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that "M" where the man who was sitting also got off who got the transfer?M = Man got off & transfer
Representative FORD - And the teenager was sitting in what seat?
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that "0"? O = Teenager/Jones
Representative FORD - Where was the man standing who came to the bus and said the President had been shot?
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here.
Representative FORD - On the step?
Mr. McWATTERS - On the step. I guess, I presume this would be the second step there. To the best of my recollection he stepped up on the first step.
Representative FORD - Mark that "P." P = Pres.ShotMan/Temple
Ford steps in
and he steps right out
he does the hokey-pokey
and he shakes it all about.
The designations are not in alpha order (there is no "n")
So... we can see "L" stands for Lady
"M" stands for (unidentified) Man
"P" stands for (unidentified) Person with news on President
Therefore... in Fordspeak... "O" cannot stand for "Teenager/Jones". Ford is surely saying that this is Oswald?
February 8, 2015 at 1:20 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 8, 2015 at 12:38 AM
Ed Ledoux at February 7, 2015 at 11:38 PM
Greg at February 7, 2015 at 10:58 PM
Not 10 minutes. Not 15 or 20 or 25. 30 minutes.
Was thinking before about the 12:45 being considered am... and how that might actually make sense - but only if you bring it back to 12:15... because if for the sake of convenience, you accept 12 noon as am... then if you give a transfer at noon that is good for 15 minutes, it makes sense (I Think????) to perhaps extend to your time stretch to 12:15.
Is it possible then that Cecil added the half hour to make it 12:45 because of the half hour time difference you point out above? Does adding that half hour aleviate the issue, or have sucked up too many paint fumes tofday? If I am confusing issues... ignore... I really don't know... just the half hour thing jumped out at me since I already had in mind about the 12:15 vs 12:45 issue...
Close!!!!!
1 is really PM
The company must back adjust the transfer for a tear at 12:45
This transfer would need to be PM as rider would be boarding at 1PM on another bus....OR the next bus, regardless of time torn.
and 12:15 12:30 are AM
Otherwise everything before 1 would be AM
Even 12:45
At Baylor I spotted Armstrongs "wrinkled transfer"
http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/34055/rec/258
004459 should have creases!
Another good day tater!
I get it now.
If 12:30 in the afternoon was punched PM then you could tear the ticket across the 1:00 o'clock section to get a later transfer out of the ticket. If 12:30 is punched AM you can't tear across the 1:00 o'clock section and get a later transfer because it would show 1:00 AM.
So, if I departed a LAKEWOOD bus at LAMAR at 12:30 in the early hours of the morning and needed a transfer it would be punched PM.
Once again, Joseph Ball et al, FUCK YOU ALL for putting us through this.
So we can scratch out the possibility that this transfer was punched 12:30PM and made into a 1:00PM transfer because it would have been a 12:30AM transfer had it been given out before 1:00 PM.
Therefore, now that this is off the table as a possibility two options remain given the way the evidence was handled.
1. Roy Milton Jones departed Cecil McWatters' bus to see what was going on when the sirens started and was given a transfer punched 1:00PM he reboarded once he had found out the President had been shot in the temple. Problem with this scenario is the time JONES claimed he boarded the bus and also if this scenario were true there would be no need to not take the booklets from McWatters bus because the transfer would pan out sequentially.
2. The transfer 0044459 was taken from McWatters' transfer booklet at 6:00pm the night of 11/22. Problem with this scenario. Nowt. It's the reason why they didn't take the entire booklet and didn't go and retrieve the transfer receipts from Dallas Transit because this transfer would not have panned out sequentially.
I'm still sat on the side of the fence where Milton Jones was originally on the 12:10PM bus and then landed on McWatters bus.
Yes Milton gets on the 12:10 which get stuck before Houston or Record. The shooting happens.
Milton Jones wants to go see the comotion gets a transfer from the 12:10 bus at 12:30, punched as such, and runs down Elm a block to watch.
The 12:10 in the left lane gets through traffic, and is able to turn and is gone down Houston a bit after 12:30pm.
Milton seeing the traffic moving runs back down Elm, the 12:10 bus is gone, but he sees the 12:40 bus.
Milton runs up bangs on the door, not wanting to miss that bus, and gives the driver (Cecil) the transfer.
Sits in the first row of front facing seats. yada yada
Problem: Should be an AM punched transfer. from the 12:10 bus.
Solution: Milton steps off 12:10 bus forgetting to ask for a transfer. Bus takes off and Milton runs back and catches 12:40.
Problem: Milton mentions nothing of the sort. Driver says man got on mid block at Murphy. Even if Man and Milton are the same, the man exits and Milton rides to Marsalis for the laughing scenario.
More general Problems:
Transfer 004459 is PM, it was never dusted or chemically processed for fingerprints.
We only have Sims word he found the transfer in LHO's pocket.
We don't have evidence of Sims prints on the transfer to verify such. We do have a sworn statement, initials on the back, and testimony.
Odd that it was carefully placed in a evidence envelope flown to DC, given a lab number, but was only photographed by the exhibits section of the FBI and no "lab" work was done.
Therefore there is really only circumstantial evidence it is found on LHO or that LHO placed that transfer in that shirt pocket.
Sims and Boyd alone in the holding room search LHO.
Boyd doesn't know where Sims found the transfer on LHO.
Boyd was busy finding bullets in a pocket previously searched at the theater. oy vey
February 8, 2015 at 2:16 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Ed Ledoux at February 8, 2015 at 11:53 AM
Now recall the testimony I put up from Cecil about the Lady standing and paying her fare when she got on.
While she was paying Cecil said that is where the conversation about the shooting/laughing took place.
M would have gotten off asking for a transfer while L was boarding and paying , she may too have asked for a transfer then
The conversation happens next.
It is Cecil, O and L at this time having a "laugh". No M and no P.
P can not have had a conversation about the shooting with Cecil and O while L was on board seated in a seat.
L should not be on the bus yet. L should board across Marsalis Bridge and then hear the Laughing Conversation.
Ford is using this diagram as a SNAPSHOT in time.
Representative FORD - Now, after the man who was standing at "P" said the President was shot, what did the lady do who was sitting in "L"?
Ford has LMOP all on the bus at the same time
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, the lady, she had a suitcase sitting right there beside me and she left. When the lady got up and said she would like to get off the bus, and that she was going to walk to the Union Station and asked me if I would give her a transfer in case that I caught up with her, and asked me if I would pick her up.
Representative FORD - You gave her a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - What happened?
Mr. McWATTERS - She got off and by the time when she was talking to me that is when he got up, this gentleman here in the seat got up, at seat "M" got off. In other words, the door was never closed of the bus from the time the gentleman stepped up in the door of that there, in other words, when he said what he did, and got on back in his car, in other words, the lady got off, and the man got off, too, both at the same stop.In other words, the bus hadn't moved at that stop.
REAAALLLLYYY!!
Ford has the P guy telling Cecil and the L lady about the shooting!!!
Cecil was supposed to be telling the lady about it. (Bledsoe whom is not on the bus)
L is getting off with a suitcase not hanging around for the Cecil and Milton show.
Although L would be standing to get off she may have not heard P or was distracted by her suitcase, it safe to say anything said to Cecil from spot P should be heard by both L and Cecil equally. Was P whispering to Cecil so as not to upset passengers?
This diagram and story would work if L gets off after P says the presidents been shot, and M also exits, the bus with just O stays on for drive across Marsalis Bridge and pick up of Bledsoe, where O and Cecil have a laugh while Bledsoe pays her fare. Back to our
Armstongs notes has Cecil saying P came up and told him the presidents been shot after he crossed Marsalis.
and she would be doing a transaction, getting a transfer (not paying)
Mr. BALL - Tell me when you issued it, on what run?
Mr. McWATTERS - I issued it on Marsalis and Munger line at I would say, around to the best of my knowledge it would be around 12:40 or somewheres in that vicinity on November 22.
So options are 12:45 PM transfer being retorn to show 1 0'clock pm (which is why drivers just skip to 1pm)
A 1pm transfer from the 12:40 Lamar bus
A really late 12:10 Lamar bus, with AM transfers, driver may have a PM book, and issues a 12:45 - 1PM transfer, or that driver is new and tears off, and then punches every transfer from a book individually (rookie)
Although in Cecils famous video the transfers were not punched at all. A faulty demonstration or whistle blower?
Okay back to our diagram!!
Mrs. BLEDSOE - And I first got off at Neiman's and I---the parade didn't come on, and I kept walking on up, and walked in front of Titche's over on that side there, and I saw the parade there. He passed--I saw the President, oh, I was happy I got to see him. And--so then I got on across and went over to the Athletic Club, and caught the bus. Athletic Club closed in '54, and moved but in '63 the building housed Mr. Mc Lean, a hair expert of Jack Ruby's, at 1805 Elm at St.Paul.
Mr. BALL - What bus did you catch?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, I don't remember whether it was the Marsalis or the Romana. Ramona bus at Lamar would be 12:30. That bus is very close to Cecil's in Time And Route.
Mr. BALL - Both go by your house, do they? What was the last one?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - The Marsalis.
Mr. BALL - What was the second name?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Romana.
Mr. BALL - And both go west on Elm?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Right--so, I got on the bus, and while it was awfully crowded there----
Mr. BALL - You mean crowded on the bus?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No; outside.
Mr. BALL - Were there many people on the bus?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No.
Mr. BALL - How many people on the bus?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Oh, about 10.
Mr. BALL - And what was the location on Elm where you boarded this bus?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - At the Athletic Club.
Mr. BALL - What cross street is that, do you remember?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - St. Paul.
Mr. BALL - St. Paul? You got on at St. Paul? St. Paul and Elm?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Uh-huh.
Mr. BALL - And the bus was going in what direction?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - West.
Mr. BALL - All right, now, tell me what happened?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - And, after we got past Akard, at Murphy---I figured it out. Let's see. I don't know for sure. Oswald got on. He looks like a maniac. His sleeve was out here [indicating]. His shirt was undone.
Mr. BALL - You are indicating a sleeve of a shirt?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.
Mr. BALL - It was unraveled?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Was a hole in it, hole, and he was dirty, and I didn't look at him. I didn't want to know 1 even seen him, and I just looked off, and then about that time the motorman said the President had been shot, and I sit--when I go to town I sit this way on the bus. The motorman is right there [indicating], and I sit right there so that I can get off. She is saying what Cecil said, that she got on was paying her fare (Standing)
Mr. BALL - You mean--where do you sit with reference to the motorman, one seat or two seats behind him?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - I don't--the motorman is here, and I sit across in the seat across the way.
Mr. BALL - Now, on this day when you boarded the bus, is that the seat you took?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - I always did.
Mr. BALL - Would that be the first seat on the right-hand side?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.
Mr. BALL - First seat on the bus?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well----
Miss DOUTHIT - Side seat.
Mr. BALL - Oh, it is a side seat? Was that side seat so that you were facing the motorman?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Uh-huh.
Mr. BALL - When Oswald got on, you then weren't facing him, were you?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No; but I saw that it was him.
Mr. BALL - How close did he pass to you as he boarded the bus?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Just in front of me. Just like this [indicating].
Mr. BALL - Just a matter of a foot or two?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Uh-huh.
Mr. BALL - When he got on the bus, did he say anything to the motorman?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Oh, the motorman? I think--I don't know. I don't know.
Mr. BALL - Where did he sit?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - He sat about halfway back down.
Mr. BALL - On what side?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - On the same side I was on.
Mr. BALL - Same side
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No, sir.
OKAY WHERE IS THE DIAGRAM, THE ONE ABOVE, THE ONE SHE COULD HAVE SHOWN WITH A LETTER LIKE N WHERE SHE WAS, AND ANOTHER LETTER FOR HER OSWALD PERHAPS Q....
BALL FORGOT HE COULD USE IT?
DIAGRAM IS TOO CONFUSING FOR BLEDSOE OR BALL?
Douthit refused to admit any Bledsoe exhibits?....sound familiar? Mrs. Paine and her should join a Calendar Club!!
February 8, 2015 at 4:27 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Greg at February 8, 2015 at 1:20 PM
FORD Steps In,
Mr. McWATTERS - This is the inside, let's see, this is the driver right here. Here is your cross seat right here. Here, about back here, is where the lady got off who was sitting on this seat.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that with an "L"? L = Lady who got off bus
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here is the first. Right here is where the man that was sitting, got off, in this seat right here, I believe it is.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that "M" where the man who was sitting also got off who got the transfer?M = Man got off & transfer
Representative FORD - And the teenager was sitting in what seat?
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that "0"? O = Teenager/Jones
Representative FORD - Where was the man standing who came to the bus and said the President had been shot?
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here.
Representative FORD - On the step?
Mr. McWATTERS - On the step. I guess, I presume this would be the second step there. To the best of my recollection he stepped up on the first step.
Representative FORD - Mark that "P." P = Pres.ShotMan/Temple
Ford steps in
and he steps right out
he does the hokey-pokey
and he shakes it all about.
The designations are not in alpha order (there is no "n")
So... we can see "L" stands for Lady
"M" stands for (unidentified) Man
"P" stands for (unidentified) Person with news on President
Therefore... in Fordspeak... "O" cannot stand for "Teenager/Jones". Ford is surely saying that this is Oswald?
I wondered what Ford was trying to spell...Didn't think he was cheer leading....Gimme An O!
O for Oswald would be logical.
Okay let me re-do this part.
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Was a hole in it, hole, and he was dirty, and I didn't look at him. I didn't want to know I even seen him, and I just looked off, and then about that time the motorman said the President had been shot, and I sit--when I go to town I sit this way on the bus. The motorman is right there [indicating], and I sit right there so that I can get off.
She is saying that Cecil said the president has been shot as O or Oswald is getting on, and that it sounds like she is remembering she got on was paying her fare (Standing) and then sat (sit) down, explaining why she 'sit' there after she heard the President had been shot, so she could off quickly, and run to the neighbors to tell them.
Mr. BALL - Do you remember anyone knocking on the door, and as a result, the motorman opened the front door?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No.
Mr. BALL - Would that be the first seat on the right-hand side?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.
She is right next to the door! Unless she is across the bridge when she gets on and is not there for the door knocking episode.
Oy Vey.
Mr. BALL - Is there a bus stop near your home?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Right in front of the house.
February 8, 2015 at 5:05 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
The other option was the one Lee or Greg pointed out way back when, that the suitcase lady was the Marsalis Bridge lady whom was crossing the street with a package.
Mr. BALL - You went on over to Houston Viaduct into the Oak Cliff section, didn't you?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; to the Oak Cliff section.
Mr. BALL - And there was some conversation occurred on that bus that you told the FBI officers about?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Tell us what that was?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, there was a teenage boy, I would say 17 or 18 years of age who was sitting to my right on the first cross seat and me and him had, we had conversationed a little while we was tied up in the traffic, you know, of the fact of we wondered where all, what all the excitement was due to the fact of the sirens and others, and after I turned on Houston Street I said to him and I made the remark, I wonder where the President was shot, and I believe he made the remark that it was probably in the head if he was in a convertible or something to that effect. I don't remember just exactly the way we worded it or what it was, but it was a conversation about the President, in other words, to where he was shot. In other words, and he made the remark or something, he was probably shot in the head, if he was sitting in a convertible or to that effect. I really don't know just exactly at that time. Just like I say I never thought anything about it.
Mr. BALL - Didn't some lady say something?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, yes, sir.
Now, as we got on out on Marsalis, along about it was either Edgemont or Vermont, I believe it was Vermont Street, there was a lady who was fixing to cross the intersection and I stopped and asked her if she was going to catch the bus into town from the opposite direction, and she said that she was and I told her that we was off schedule,
He saw the 12:10 had gone by him already
that the other bus had done went into town, and I asked her did she care to just ride on to the end of the line and come back and she wouldn't have to stand there and wait, and she was getting on, and I asked her had she heard the news of the President being shot, at the time that was all I knew about it, and she said, "No, what are you--you are just kidding me."
I said, "No, I really am not kidding you." I said, "It is the truth from all the reliable sources that we have come in contact with," and this teenage boy sitting on the side, I said "Well, now, if you think I am kidding you," I said, "Ask this gentleman sitting over here," and he kind of, I don't know whether it was a grinning or smile or whatever expression it was, and she said, "I know you are kidding now, because he laughed or grinned or made some remark to that effect."
And I just told her no it wasn't no kidding matter, but that was part of the conversation that was said at that time.
Conversation takes place with a woman boarding a bus whom was crossing the street about Vermont whom must have had a suitcase, meaning she was catching a bus/cab, or she empty handed walked across to the stop inbound when Cecil spoke to her probably from his bus window. This is too far down Marsalis to be near Bledsoes residence. Not Bledsoe.
But it is about 12 blocks farther down the run to BrownleeSt., where Milton would exit the bus.
So Milton the Vermont lady and Cecil have a Laugh. Only way Mary Bledsoe would know is if she missed her drop off or was inbound from her house and the stop right outside, she too would ride to the end of the line and come back.
Where does that leave us, was Mary downtown, did she ride a bus, did she ride a 12:30 Ramona, or a 12:40 Marsalis?
If the Ramona, how did she know about the laughing boy, I realized the DPD told her about the transfer, but did she learn everything about Cecils bus trip through the DPD "questioning" ? Good question. Was Douthit there?
j/kWhat makes sense is Cecil in his first day statement after 6:30pm, he said he picked up a man about a block from Houston and went out Marsalis where he picked up a woman, had a conversation where man aka Milton grins, to which she says its not a grinning matter which Cecil would parrot back.
http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338154/m1/1/
It says transfer 004459 is from his bus, and has his punch, but mentions nothing about whom if anyone he gave that or any transfers to.
And it does say shot in the TEMPLE.
Mary in her first day affidavit said : http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339150/m1/1/?q=mary%20bledsoe
That the bus she rode made a stop at Murphy street. The Man / Oswald got on rode two three blocks.
By connecting the broken english I read, 'During the time the bus was stopped someone made statement the president had been shot. While stopped in heavy traffic the Man/Oswald gets off.
She knows him because he lived at her house.
Not that he rented a room, or was a renter, room mate or tenant, but lived at my house.
But she just happens to know those dates for those two weeks he "lived" at her house so perfectly its as if she had her calendar there to show Patsy Collins.
http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339150/m1/1/?q=mary%20bledsoe
February 8, 2015 at 6:59 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
John Mooney
Member
Posts: 48
Is this the worst getaway in history?
Walk seven blocks observing the commotion, the road blocks, the stopped traffic... and get on a stopped bus heading back into all that.
He was never on that bus.
February 8, 2015 at 7:16 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
The other option was the one Lee or Greg pointed out way back when,
Not this little black duck, Ed. I haven't contributed anything but my own beffuddlement, mixed with awe for the rest of you.
that the suitcase lady was the Marsalis Bridge lady whom was crossing the street with a package.
I don't suppose she was on her way to Randle residence by any chance?
February 8, 2015 at 8:04 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
John Mooney at February 8, 2015 at 7:16 PM
Is this the worst getaway in history?
Walk seven blocks observing the commotion, the road blocks, the stopped traffic... and get on a stopped bus heading back into all that.
He was never on that bus.
A fine line between madness and genius... who would suspect someone on a bus driving into the eye of the storm?
But otherwsie yer right, John. No way no how on that bus.
February 8, 2015 at 8:06 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340552/m1/1/?q=mcwatters
In the hand written affidavit, Lee pointed out, Mcwatters had down as Marsalis for drop off of Man / Milton M.
Here he is unsure but remembers letting someone off there. If not the man who?
Is it Marsalis and Houston Viaduct area? or ON Marsalis he would have made a stop.
But the man is Milton, so he scratches out Marsalis, and would not know Milton lived on Brownlee till next ride with Milton.
Bledsoe must be on the Ramona bus.
Why is she not asked where she got off?
We know she rode a bus downtown, right?
Mr. BALL - The 22d of November the President came to Dallas.
Mrs. BLEDSOE - And I first got off at Neiman's
Sounds to me like she would have gotten a SHOPPERS TRANSFER!!!
- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Wed 17 Aug 2016, 3:09 pm
Ed Ledoux,
Bravo!
Well this blows Myers idea out of the water that LHO was in a hurry to catch a bus on Jefferson from his rooming house at 1:15.
For Myers theories to work he needs LHO in the cab and at Beckley by 1:00.
We can see there is no cab ride taken.
We can see the bus LHO was supposed to be on, brought him five blocks from that rooming house...so he would need to walk the ten blocks there and back, plus the extra distance to Ewing/ Jefferson of 5-6 blocks.
...which is 13+ minute walk plus 4 minutes to change clothes. Or 17 + minutes
LHO if he had a transfer, had till 1:40 to be at either Ewing or Ninth and Jefferson to catch the Lancaster Bus 55.
This is why we need all those maps, we don't have the Second and Lago route schedule yet.
21) Would this mean though that his the transfer would be punched by the Second and Lago driver in the RETRANSFER section?
If not we are clear to proceed.
Why catch a Second and Lago bus? Walking seems easier.
It is just two blocks walk from Jefferson/Marsalis to Ewing/Jefferson.The transfer would not be marked retransfer.
Transfer could be as we see it today, even if it was used to board Lancaster 55 bus.
Okay Mr. Farley please come up with the Lancaster 55 route. :-) I looked and wasn't finding it.
February 8, 2015 at 8:42 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Ed,
These are the best quality document I can find online at the moment. The Dallas Transit City map is as much use as a chocolate teapot so if we want a copy that we can read we're gonna have to get in touch with NARA. I hope you can make out the Lancaster map. It is from Roger Warner's Secret Service report of June 1964 CD1128:
Bravo!
Well this blows Myers idea out of the water that LHO was in a hurry to catch a bus on Jefferson from his rooming house at 1:15.
For Myers theories to work he needs LHO in the cab and at Beckley by 1:00.
We can see there is no cab ride taken.
We can see the bus LHO was supposed to be on, brought him five blocks from that rooming house...so he would need to walk the ten blocks there and back, plus the extra distance to Ewing/ Jefferson of 5-6 blocks.
...which is 13+ minute walk plus 4 minutes to change clothes. Or 17 + minutes
LHO if he had a transfer, had till 1:40 to be at either Ewing or Ninth and Jefferson to catch the Lancaster Bus 55.
This is why we need all those maps, we don't have the Second and Lago route schedule yet.
21) Would this mean though that his the transfer would be punched by the Second and Lago driver in the RETRANSFER section?
If not we are clear to proceed.
Why catch a Second and Lago bus? Walking seems easier.
It is just two blocks walk from Jefferson/Marsalis to Ewing/Jefferson.The transfer would not be marked retransfer.
Transfer could be as we see it today, even if it was used to board Lancaster 55 bus.
Okay Mr. Farley please come up with the Lancaster 55 route. :-) I looked and wasn't finding it.
February 8, 2015 at 8:42 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Ed,
These are the best quality document I can find online at the moment. The Dallas Transit City map is as much use as a chocolate teapot so if we want a copy that we can read we're gonna have to get in touch with NARA. I hope you can make out the Lancaster map. It is from Roger Warner's Secret Service report of June 1964 CD1128:
- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Wed 17 Aug 2016, 4:23 pm
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Thanks Lee! Routes should be published in a section of Dallas Morning News, etc. especially route changes.
This Lancaster Run 55 is a good one. Lancaster has Jefferson, Ewing, Veterans Hospital, Ledbetter and Bonnieview among its stops. Last two during rush hour only, still they are a few blocks away from end of line on Kingsley. It is a 12:30 Field and Main bus.
It would be held up for parade, motorcade traffic.Like this Dallas Transit Bus on Main at Evray going East.
Or this one on Evray at Main
Or these stopped on the street.
This shows old/new at Harwood and Elm. Note Titches on Left, Majestic Theater on Right
February 9, 2015 at 6:02 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Karen West Waldrop · Mustang, Oklahoma; My parents owned the two apt buildings at the corner of 8th & Marsalis from 1960-1966. I remember Owens Store was across the street where we kids would sell our Coke bottles. I had two younger sisters. All three of us had long hair, and we skated all over the neighborhood! · April 8, 2014 at 7:22pm
30 Marsalis Bus
February 9, 2015 at 6:04 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
I believe the first bus is bus 1213 not the one with the arrow.
The first bus is ready for its turn on Houston the arrowed bus is getting ready to pull into the stop at Elm and Houston. The first bus is 1213 the arrowed bus is Beckley 22. Cecil was right. He was likely first bus through, but turned on Houston.
A blow up of original of bus facing camera would be key to answering this.
http://www.leeharveyoswald.nl/bus1.jpg
Inside a Dallas bus 1956
Segregated Bus in Texas Despite a court ruling on desegregating buses, white and blacks continue to be divided by their own choice. April 25, 1956 Dallas, Texas, USA
Lee,
If that Chocolate teapt idea works out let me know, mmm tea and desert!
February 9, 2015 at 6:57 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Three (3) 1949 Dallas Rail and Terminal (Transit) transfer
Punched AM and 53 Fruitdale
Shows 55 was Lake H'lands
February 9, 2015 at 8:07 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
I see no Bus near Elm and Houston intersection.
I see no traffic behind the crowd.
Did DPD divert traffic at Elm and Record.
Towner footage of Elm and Houston.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmeaYWr3qZk
Traffic held at or before Elm and Houston
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCQewH2IpkY
No traffic in Z film, but what looks like a car possibly a DPD car behind three parade goers standing across Elm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4L1CVX0FnA
My old neighbor had this footage for years in his closet! A bus is seen on Main at Market.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0Hl5bZQDbI
February 9, 2015 at 9:10 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
I've wondered what advertisements old 433 had on her that day?
The bus (Dallas Transit # 433 pictured) is a White Motor Company Model for Dallas Ry & Terminal #'s 401-454 were 1144-D-2 (DW meaning Diesel Equipped/102 inches wide) dating to 1952 and was equipped with a Cummins Diesel engine tied to a White built 'Hydro-Torque' automatic transmission.
The 1100 series White came through with a standard fresh air intake over the destination sign much like GM's ThermoMatic but, in the case of Dallas, you'll note that on #433, and however many others of its ilk, the intake was blocked when the company installed their own 'after market' air conditioners - White never produced an air conditioner.
http://forum.bustalk.info/viewtopic.php?t=3538&sid=cf938e9abc6dcbf6b33e2779be871b17
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Thanks Lee! Routes should be published in a section of Dallas Morning News, etc. especially route changes.
This Lancaster Run 55 is a good one. Lancaster has Jefferson, Ewing, Veterans Hospital, Ledbetter and Bonnieview among its stops. Last two during rush hour only, still they are a few blocks away from end of line on Kingsley. It is a 12:30 Field and Main bus.
It would be held up for parade, motorcade traffic.Like this Dallas Transit Bus on Main at Evray going East.
Or this one on Evray at Main
Or these stopped on the street.
This shows old/new at Harwood and Elm. Note Titches on Left, Majestic Theater on Right
February 9, 2015 at 6:02 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Karen West Waldrop · Mustang, Oklahoma; My parents owned the two apt buildings at the corner of 8th & Marsalis from 1960-1966. I remember Owens Store was across the street where we kids would sell our Coke bottles. I had two younger sisters. All three of us had long hair, and we skated all over the neighborhood! · April 8, 2014 at 7:22pm
30 Marsalis Bus
February 9, 2015 at 6:04 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
I believe the first bus is bus 1213 not the one with the arrow.
The first bus is ready for its turn on Houston the arrowed bus is getting ready to pull into the stop at Elm and Houston. The first bus is 1213 the arrowed bus is Beckley 22. Cecil was right. He was likely first bus through, but turned on Houston.
A blow up of original of bus facing camera would be key to answering this.
http://www.leeharveyoswald.nl/bus1.jpg
Inside a Dallas bus 1956
Segregated Bus in Texas Despite a court ruling on desegregating buses, white and blacks continue to be divided by their own choice. April 25, 1956 Dallas, Texas, USA
Lee,
If that Chocolate teapt idea works out let me know, mmm tea and desert!
February 9, 2015 at 6:57 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Three (3) 1949 Dallas Rail and Terminal (Transit) transfer
Punched AM and 53 Fruitdale
Shows 55 was Lake H'lands
February 9, 2015 at 8:07 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
I see no Bus near Elm and Houston intersection.
I see no traffic behind the crowd.
Did DPD divert traffic at Elm and Record.
Towner footage of Elm and Houston.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmeaYWr3qZk
Traffic held at or before Elm and Houston
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCQewH2IpkY
No traffic in Z film, but what looks like a car possibly a DPD car behind three parade goers standing across Elm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4L1CVX0FnA
My old neighbor had this footage for years in his closet! A bus is seen on Main at Market.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0Hl5bZQDbI
February 9, 2015 at 9:10 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
I've wondered what advertisements old 433 had on her that day?
The bus (Dallas Transit # 433 pictured) is a White Motor Company Model for Dallas Ry & Terminal #'s 401-454 were 1144-D-2 (DW meaning Diesel Equipped/102 inches wide) dating to 1952 and was equipped with a Cummins Diesel engine tied to a White built 'Hydro-Torque' automatic transmission.
The 1100 series White came through with a standard fresh air intake over the destination sign much like GM's ThermoMatic but, in the case of Dallas, you'll note that on #433, and however many others of its ilk, the intake was blocked when the company installed their own 'after market' air conditioners - White never produced an air conditioner.
http://forum.bustalk.info/viewtopic.php?t=3538&sid=cf938e9abc6dcbf6b33e2779be871b17
- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Wed 17 Aug 2016, 4:35 pm
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
DID YOU RIDE THIS BUS NOVEMBER 22 1963?
433 had a distinctive aftermarket AC bent sheet metal ducting cowl - kinda homemade look where it meets the ac unit.
February 9, 2015 at 10:04 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Ed Ledoux at February 9, 2015 at 6:57 PM
http://gallery.bustalk.info/albums/userpics/10001/mid_DallasRy_T1066onRt24ScanColl.jpg
I believe the first bus is bus 1213 not the one with the arrow.
The first bus is ready for its turn on Houston the arrowed bus is getting ready to pull into the stop at Elm and Houston. The first bus is 1213 the arrowed bus is Beckley 22. Cecil was right. He was likely first bus through, but turned on Houston.
A blow up of original of bus facing camera would be key to answering this.
http://www.leeharveyoswald.nl/bus1.jpg
Inside a Dallas bus 1956
Segregated Bus in Texas Despite a court ruling on desegregating buses, white and blacks continue to be divided by their own choice. April 25, 1956 Dallas, Texas, USA
Lee,
If that Chocolate teapt idea works out let me know, mmm tea and desert!
I'd like to know why S.L. Reed felt it necessary to take this photo of two buses on Elm St. before hot footing it over to Jefferson and photograph the arrest from outside the Theater.
The photograph above with the arrow first appeared in Groden's book The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald in 1995 and I'm a bit perplexed as to how Groden came to the conclusion that the bus in the photograph is what he claims it is. What information did he have that allowed to make the claim that this is Cecil McWatters bus?
I'm positive if the negative is available and a high definition scan is made of the below S. L. Reed photo we could easily be able to see what bus is waiting in traffic on Elm. This bus is just approaching the LAMAR St. junction.
P.S. I'm just reading through Groden's narrative accompanying these photos. Jeezus, the man is so full of shit it's unbelievable. According to Groden, Cecil McWatters identified Lee Oswald in a lineup the night of 11/22. Not by any stretch of the imagination did McWatters identify Lee Oswald.
February 9, 2015 at 11:45 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
Groden's surprise "witness" exposed him as absolutely full of shit. He, Lifton, White and a slew of others sucked the the living daylights out of this case and are part of the reason it's dragged on this long.
Just take this thread alone... what would the case look like now if you and Ed had been on the HSCA?
February 10, 2015 at 7:10 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Greg at February 10, 2015 at 7:10 AM
Groden's surprise "witness" exposed him as absolutely full of shit. He, Lifton, White and a slew of others sucked the the living daylights out of this case and are part of the reason it's dragged on this long.
Just take this thread alone... what would the case look like now if you and Ed had been on the HSCA?
Yep! Groden is not all he wants everyone to think he is.
Me on the HSCA? Doubt I'd have lasted long, Greg. I'd have been taken out by a black dog man firing an ice dart up my arse.
February 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
Lee Farley at February 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM
Greg at February 10, 2015 at 7:10 AM
Groden's surprise "witness" exposed him as absolutely full of shit. He, Lifton, White and a slew of others sucked the the living daylights out of this case and are part of the reason it's dragged on this long.
Just take this thread alone... what would the case look like now if you and Ed had been on the HSCA?
Yep! Groden is not all he wants everyone to think he is.
Me on the HSCA? Doubt I'd have lasted long, Greg. I'd have been taken out by a black dog man firing an ice dart up my arse.
Yes, but just think. You could have had posthumous fame via being added to Charnin's msyterious deaths list! You know elvis was recently added, don't you? After it was discovered he was having it off with Judy... our very own Ms Vegas found the photographic evidence https://www.facebook.com/groups/827830333924181/915323625174851/?comment_id=917679008272646&ref=notif¬if_t=like
February 10, 2015 at 9:28 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Paul Francisco Paso
Administrator
Posts: 729
Greg at February 10, 2015 at 9:28 AM
Lee Farley at February 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM
Greg at February 10, 2015 at 7:10 AM
Groden's surprise "witness" exposed him as absolutely full of shit. He, Lifton, White and a slew of others sucked the the living daylights out of this case and are part of the reason it's dragged on this long.
Just take this thread alone... what would the case look like now if you and Ed had been on the HSCA?
Yep! Groden is not all he wants everyone to think he is.
Me on the HSCA? Doubt I'd have lasted long, Greg. I'd have been taken out by a black dog man firing an ice dart up my arse.
Yes, but just think. You could have had posthumous fame via being added to Charnin's msyterious deaths list! You know elvis was recently added, don't you? After it was discovered he was having it off with Judy... our very own Ms Vegas found the photographic evidence https://www.facebook.com/groups/827830333924181/915323625174851/?comment_id=917679008272646&ref=notif¬if_t=like
Its good to see A J Weberman still around. He is good value. Let him trowel through JVB's trash and see what he comes up with.
February 10, 2015 at 10:06 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Speaking of trolling...I mean Trolleying here is '64 Trolley Map.
Here is the 34 Vickery bus circa 1952.
Note the poster on the pole!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.trolleybuses.net/dal/htm/usa_h_dal_misc_ad_ob_maintainstrolleycoaches_195209_bt.htm
So bus riders like Oswald would know what Ruby had going on that week.
February 10, 2015 at 4:24 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
Ed, I think you'll find that's a poster advertizing the musical, Carousel! I don't think the Carousel Club even existed in '52 by that name.
Although you're on such a roll, I wouldn't be surprised to be wrong about this...
February 10, 2015 at 5:52 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 9, 2015 at 11:45 PM
Ed Ledoux at February 9, 2015 at 6:57 PM
http://gallery.bustalk.info/albums/userpics/10001/mid_DallasRy_T1066onRt24ScanColl.jpg
I believe the first bus is bus 1213 not the one with the arrow.
The first bus is ready for its turn on Houston the arrowed bus is getting ready to pull into the stop at Elm and Houston. The first bus is 1213 the arrowed bus is Beckley 22. Cecil was right. He was likely first bus through, but turned on Houston.
A blow up of original of bus facing camera would be key to answering this.
http://www.leeharveyoswald.nl/bus1.jpg
Inside a Dallas bus 1956
Segregated Bus in Texas Despite a court ruling on desegregating buses, white and blacks continue to be divided by their own choice. April 25, 1956 Dallas, Texas, USA
Lee,
If that Chocolate teapt idea works out let me know, mmm tea and desert!
I'd like to know why S.L. Reed felt it necessary to take this photo of two buses on Elm St. before hot footing it over to Jefferson and photograph the arrest from outside the Theater.
The photograph above with the arrow first appeared in Groden's book The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald in 1995 and I'm a bit perplexed as to how Groden came to the conclusion that the bus in the photograph is what he claims it is. What information did he have that allowed to make the claim that this is Cecil McWatters bus?
I'm positive if the negative is available and a high definition scan is made of the below S. L. Reed photo we could easily be able to see what bus is waiting in traffic on Elm. This bus is just approaching the LAMAR St. junction.
P.S. I'm just reading through Groden's narrative accompanying these photos. Jeezus, the man is so full of shit it's unbelievable. According to Groden, Cecil McWatters identified Lee Oswald in a lineup the night of 11/22. Not by any stretch of the imagination did McWatters identify Lee Oswald.
It is simple Lee. Someone was seen by Stuart, he followed the person away from TSBD, that person tried to ditch Stuart and hopped a bus, maybe one driven by Cecil Joffrey MaWatters so he takes photos like a good spy.
Didn't Stuart claim a photo was missing an the FBI didn't give it back. Maybe a bus close up.
Born: Cecil Joffrey McWatters March 29, 1918 in Texas, USA
Died: February 5, 1995 (age 76) in Dallas, Texas, USA
SSN:429-48-0651 State of SSN Issue: Arkansas
Cecil was 45 and been working for DTC for 18 years in '63
Didn't they retire after twenty years back then?
Cecil is "quoted" in Red Roses From Texas, fwiw, As saying it was 12:40 as he was kept looking at his watch all the time, being late on schedule. Oswald boarded sat in the middle of the car and their were two other passengers.
(One had to be train/suitcase lady. The other would be Milton. Wait I thought Oswald was Milton...)
When a car got stopped in front and driver tapped on the window and told Cecil the president has been shot is when the lady gets off and Oswald does too and says Gimme A Transfer.
Rather rude, I thought it was "Transfer please"
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/R%20Disk/Red%20Roses%20From%20Texas/Item%2001.pdf
Where all the interviews are from!! CBS News, Eddie Barker and the gang did a bang up job.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VylXqBuhTQ0
about 1:00 into it.....
Whaley is at the Greyhound bus station on Lamar and Jackson....hey there is a bus major bus stop there!!
Then at 1:16 mark we hear Dan Rather say "hunters were closing in (on LHO), police cars were everywhere" , just then a Dallas Transit Bus drives by on Jefferson! Classic. Using 23 cents or his transfer he could have gotten away! Like he just did from the depository! Haha
This stuff is golden!
Oh,
I have a candidate for a bus rider:
Mr. WORRELL - Well, I got up about, well, I got up at my usual time, about 6:30. I was going to go to school that day but I decided to go see the President and my mother left about 7:30, and my sister left about a quarter of 8. I left about 8, and hitchhiked down to Love Field and got there. It took me quite a while to get there, about 9, and just messed around there until the President come in, whatever time that was. And then I didn't get to see him good at all. So I caught a bus and went over, went downtown and I just, I don't know, happened to pick that place at the Depository, and I stood at the corner of Elm and Houston.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you leave Love Field before the President did?
Mr. WORRELL - Oh, yes.
Mr. SPECTER - Why did you happen to leave Love Field before he left?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, so I could see him better.
Mr. SPECTER - Couldn't you get a good view of him a Love Field?
Mr. WORRELL - No, I just saw him get off the plane and I figured that I wasn't going to see him good so I was going to get a better place to see him.
Mr. SPECTER - How did you travel from Love Field to Elm and Houston?
Mr. WORRELL - Bus. No, no; I just traveled so far on the bus. I went down to Elm, and took a buds from there. I went down as far as, I don't know where that bus stops, anyway, I got close to there and I walked the rest of the way.
Mr. SPECTER - What time, to the best of your recollection, did you arrive at the intersection of Elm and Houston?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, about 10, 10:30, 10:45, something around there. There weren't many people standing around there then.
Mr. SPECTER - Well about how long before the Presidential motorcade came to Elm and Houston did you get there?
Mr. WORRELL - An hour; an hour and a half.
WOW,,,,
if you throw out Worrell' ludicrous times you could put him on the bus!
Imagine Bledsoe seeing this Twenty-year-old high school dropout. I wonder if he always wore glasses or he forgot them that day and thus couldn't see far away, ie needed to get close to parade.
He is an avis bus rider. http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0436-001.gif
He is also an avid bullshitter. He had to go home by bus and see what happened on TV most likely.
Worrell along with Jackson in the press car, and Dan Rather, suffer from Brian Williams syndrome.
Wanting to inject oneself into a story because to do so is okay as long as your adding to the story.
Worrell added the person coming from the back door and like Jackson the rifle.
Only Worrell saw a rifle sticking out far enough so you can look up from below on the sidewalk and see the barrel and some of the stock sticking out beyond the brickwork...oy vey
These folks whom mis-remember, whom injected themselves, forget the diminutive size of that rifle. It would not protrude from the window as such is claimed.
Even in the Shanneyfelt recreation photo, the rifle is not protruding.
If seated and with two boxes in front of him the short armed 'sniper' would have to wave the gun out the window with one arm extended to get it 'out the window'. Then why didn't the boy's on Five see it protruding?
Most excellent video with 6th floor torn up still, and other goodies!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExsNj9H7LbA
Video makes me think LHO took a cab to Neely Street, went into 214, got his "pistol", a loaner from a friend, and in the hiding spot was James Jackson's pay stub which got mixed with his fake wallet, papers, communist manifesto, etc. Haha
He then goes to movies. Where cop says "Here He Is", while others are being frisked in the front rows.
Stuart L Reed heard a cop state out front of the theater that the suspect 'killed the president',.
Any ways
Video shows man sitting and firing from behind two boxes would not have 38" weapon protrude from window of that building.
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir, I looked up and saw the rifle, but I would say about 6 inches of it. HOGWASH
Mr. WORRELL - I went east.
Mr. SPECTER - You went in an easterly direction how many blocks down Pacific?
Mr. WORRELL - I went down to Market and from Market I went on Ross.
Mr. SPECTER - You went left on Market down to Ross, and then?
Mr. WORRELL - From Ross I went all the way to Ervay.
Mr. SPECTER - Where were you heading for at the time?
Mr. WORRELL - For the bus stop near my mother's office. And I rode the bus from there out to the school and hitchhiked the rest of the way to Farmer's Branch.
Okay he rode from Evray and Ross to Thomas Jefferson High School.
That is far enough away from his home he could hitchhike.
Why not just blend in with other students and take the school bus home? He was still enrolled.
Again the sense of reason Cooper asks the question that got Worrell to slip up. Remember he never saw more than the tip of the gun a few inches.
Senator COOPER - You stated that, I believe, you looked up after you had heard the first report?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - You looked up and saw the barrel of a rifle, and then the rifle fired. What made you know that it fired?
Mr. WORRELL - Pardon?
Senator COOPER - How did you know it was fired when you were looking at it?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, I saw what you might call a little flame and smoke.
Senator COOPER - You saw something that came out of the barrel?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Were you looking at it when you heard the third report?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir, looking at it, turning around and started to run.
Senator COOPER - Did you see anything then?
Mr. WORRELL - Same thing, a little flash of fire and then smoke. I didn't see it on the fourth one.
Senator COOPER - Did you only look at the car in which the President was riding one time when you saw him slump?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Did you look back at the President's car then?
Mr. WORRELL - No, sir. I didn't do that because, I mean I didn't know if there was one or more guns, because I wondered why if it was in such rapid succession being a bolt action, I found out later, and I didn't know what was coming off, so I was running to the back of the building because I figured that would be the safest place.
So he slips and says the reason he ran was that fast firing bolt action he did not know was a bolt action till later but still ran beacause of how fast that bolt action was firing, directly over his head.
"What was coming off" is odd to say, ...what was going on... would be correct today, did America somehow flip this saying around post '63?
Reed and his theater pics cement the fact LHO's shirt was so mangled that the pristine transfer could never had survived this gauntlet.
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1480455024
No way Jose!
Which bus? Helen Markham 1:12 Patton and Jefferson bus, Hmmm.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=762993
February 11, 2015 at 4:46 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Beowulf
Member
Posts: 179 Wait, was Markham waiting for McWatters' bus, a later bus on same route, or a bus on a separate route (Beckley, say)? How far was the bus stop from Tippit crime scene? I wonder if bus company was first approached by cops to find Tippit witnesses (the driver himself or anyone he picked up or dropped off near crime scene).
--
February 11, 2015 at 5:41 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
February 11, 2015 at 6:28 AM
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
I know you can never make assumptions concerning other people's behaviours that you may believe to be odd but Helen could have shaven 30 seconds off that walk by heading down South Crawford Street toward Jefferson rather that the route she took down Patton.
Moderator
Posts: 1104
DID YOU RIDE THIS BUS NOVEMBER 22 1963?
433 had a distinctive aftermarket AC bent sheet metal ducting cowl - kinda homemade look where it meets the ac unit.
February 9, 2015 at 10:04 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Ed Ledoux at February 9, 2015 at 6:57 PM
http://gallery.bustalk.info/albums/userpics/10001/mid_DallasRy_T1066onRt24ScanColl.jpg
I believe the first bus is bus 1213 not the one with the arrow.
The first bus is ready for its turn on Houston the arrowed bus is getting ready to pull into the stop at Elm and Houston. The first bus is 1213 the arrowed bus is Beckley 22. Cecil was right. He was likely first bus through, but turned on Houston.
A blow up of original of bus facing camera would be key to answering this.
http://www.leeharveyoswald.nl/bus1.jpg
Inside a Dallas bus 1956
Segregated Bus in Texas Despite a court ruling on desegregating buses, white and blacks continue to be divided by their own choice. April 25, 1956 Dallas, Texas, USA
Lee,
If that Chocolate teapt idea works out let me know, mmm tea and desert!
I'd like to know why S.L. Reed felt it necessary to take this photo of two buses on Elm St. before hot footing it over to Jefferson and photograph the arrest from outside the Theater.
The photograph above with the arrow first appeared in Groden's book The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald in 1995 and I'm a bit perplexed as to how Groden came to the conclusion that the bus in the photograph is what he claims it is. What information did he have that allowed to make the claim that this is Cecil McWatters bus?
I'm positive if the negative is available and a high definition scan is made of the below S. L. Reed photo we could easily be able to see what bus is waiting in traffic on Elm. This bus is just approaching the LAMAR St. junction.
P.S. I'm just reading through Groden's narrative accompanying these photos. Jeezus, the man is so full of shit it's unbelievable. According to Groden, Cecil McWatters identified Lee Oswald in a lineup the night of 11/22. Not by any stretch of the imagination did McWatters identify Lee Oswald.
February 9, 2015 at 11:45 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
Groden's surprise "witness" exposed him as absolutely full of shit. He, Lifton, White and a slew of others sucked the the living daylights out of this case and are part of the reason it's dragged on this long.
Just take this thread alone... what would the case look like now if you and Ed had been on the HSCA?
February 10, 2015 at 7:10 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
Greg at February 10, 2015 at 7:10 AM
Groden's surprise "witness" exposed him as absolutely full of shit. He, Lifton, White and a slew of others sucked the the living daylights out of this case and are part of the reason it's dragged on this long.
Just take this thread alone... what would the case look like now if you and Ed had been on the HSCA?
Yep! Groden is not all he wants everyone to think he is.
Me on the HSCA? Doubt I'd have lasted long, Greg. I'd have been taken out by a black dog man firing an ice dart up my arse.
February 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
Lee Farley at February 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM
Greg at February 10, 2015 at 7:10 AM
Groden's surprise "witness" exposed him as absolutely full of shit. He, Lifton, White and a slew of others sucked the the living daylights out of this case and are part of the reason it's dragged on this long.
Just take this thread alone... what would the case look like now if you and Ed had been on the HSCA?
Yep! Groden is not all he wants everyone to think he is.
Me on the HSCA? Doubt I'd have lasted long, Greg. I'd have been taken out by a black dog man firing an ice dart up my arse.
Yes, but just think. You could have had posthumous fame via being added to Charnin's msyterious deaths list! You know elvis was recently added, don't you? After it was discovered he was having it off with Judy... our very own Ms Vegas found the photographic evidence https://www.facebook.com/groups/827830333924181/915323625174851/?comment_id=917679008272646&ref=notif¬if_t=like
February 10, 2015 at 9:28 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Paul Francisco Paso
Administrator
Posts: 729
Greg at February 10, 2015 at 9:28 AM
Lee Farley at February 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM
Greg at February 10, 2015 at 7:10 AM
Groden's surprise "witness" exposed him as absolutely full of shit. He, Lifton, White and a slew of others sucked the the living daylights out of this case and are part of the reason it's dragged on this long.
Just take this thread alone... what would the case look like now if you and Ed had been on the HSCA?
Yep! Groden is not all he wants everyone to think he is.
Me on the HSCA? Doubt I'd have lasted long, Greg. I'd have been taken out by a black dog man firing an ice dart up my arse.
Yes, but just think. You could have had posthumous fame via being added to Charnin's msyterious deaths list! You know elvis was recently added, don't you? After it was discovered he was having it off with Judy... our very own Ms Vegas found the photographic evidence https://www.facebook.com/groups/827830333924181/915323625174851/?comment_id=917679008272646&ref=notif¬if_t=like
Its good to see A J Weberman still around. He is good value. Let him trowel through JVB's trash and see what he comes up with.
February 10, 2015 at 10:06 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Speaking of trolling...I mean Trolleying here is '64 Trolley Map.
Here is the 34 Vickery bus circa 1952.
Note the poster on the pole!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.trolleybuses.net/dal/htm/usa_h_dal_misc_ad_ob_maintainstrolleycoaches_195209_bt.htm
So bus riders like Oswald would know what Ruby had going on that week.
February 10, 2015 at 4:24 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048
Ed, I think you'll find that's a poster advertizing the musical, Carousel! I don't think the Carousel Club even existed in '52 by that name.
Although you're on such a roll, I wouldn't be surprised to be wrong about this...
February 10, 2015 at 5:52 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Lee Farley at February 9, 2015 at 11:45 PM
Ed Ledoux at February 9, 2015 at 6:57 PM
http://gallery.bustalk.info/albums/userpics/10001/mid_DallasRy_T1066onRt24ScanColl.jpg
I believe the first bus is bus 1213 not the one with the arrow.
The first bus is ready for its turn on Houston the arrowed bus is getting ready to pull into the stop at Elm and Houston. The first bus is 1213 the arrowed bus is Beckley 22. Cecil was right. He was likely first bus through, but turned on Houston.
A blow up of original of bus facing camera would be key to answering this.
http://www.leeharveyoswald.nl/bus1.jpg
Inside a Dallas bus 1956
Segregated Bus in Texas Despite a court ruling on desegregating buses, white and blacks continue to be divided by their own choice. April 25, 1956 Dallas, Texas, USA
Lee,
If that Chocolate teapt idea works out let me know, mmm tea and desert!
I'd like to know why S.L. Reed felt it necessary to take this photo of two buses on Elm St. before hot footing it over to Jefferson and photograph the arrest from outside the Theater.
The photograph above with the arrow first appeared in Groden's book The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald in 1995 and I'm a bit perplexed as to how Groden came to the conclusion that the bus in the photograph is what he claims it is. What information did he have that allowed to make the claim that this is Cecil McWatters bus?
I'm positive if the negative is available and a high definition scan is made of the below S. L. Reed photo we could easily be able to see what bus is waiting in traffic on Elm. This bus is just approaching the LAMAR St. junction.
P.S. I'm just reading through Groden's narrative accompanying these photos. Jeezus, the man is so full of shit it's unbelievable. According to Groden, Cecil McWatters identified Lee Oswald in a lineup the night of 11/22. Not by any stretch of the imagination did McWatters identify Lee Oswald.
It is simple Lee. Someone was seen by Stuart, he followed the person away from TSBD, that person tried to ditch Stuart and hopped a bus, maybe one driven by Cecil Joffrey MaWatters so he takes photos like a good spy.
Didn't Stuart claim a photo was missing an the FBI didn't give it back. Maybe a bus close up.
Born: Cecil Joffrey McWatters March 29, 1918 in Texas, USA
Died: February 5, 1995 (age 76) in Dallas, Texas, USA
SSN:429-48-0651 State of SSN Issue: Arkansas
Cecil was 45 and been working for DTC for 18 years in '63
Didn't they retire after twenty years back then?
Cecil is "quoted" in Red Roses From Texas, fwiw, As saying it was 12:40 as he was kept looking at his watch all the time, being late on schedule. Oswald boarded sat in the middle of the car and their were two other passengers.
(One had to be train/suitcase lady. The other would be Milton. Wait I thought Oswald was Milton...)
When a car got stopped in front and driver tapped on the window and told Cecil the president has been shot is when the lady gets off and Oswald does too and says Gimme A Transfer.
Rather rude, I thought it was "Transfer please"
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/R%20Disk/Red%20Roses%20From%20Texas/Item%2001.pdf
Where all the interviews are from!! CBS News, Eddie Barker and the gang did a bang up job.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VylXqBuhTQ0
about 1:00 into it.....
Whaley is at the Greyhound bus station on Lamar and Jackson....hey there is a bus major bus stop there!!
Then at 1:16 mark we hear Dan Rather say "hunters were closing in (on LHO), police cars were everywhere" , just then a Dallas Transit Bus drives by on Jefferson! Classic.
Using 23 cents or his transfer he could have gotten away! Like he just did from the depository! HahaThis stuff is golden!
Oh,
I have a candidate for a bus rider:
Mr. WORRELL - Well, I got up about, well, I got up at my usual time, about 6:30. I was going to go to school that day but I decided to go see the President and my mother left about 7:30, and my sister left about a quarter of 8. I left about 8, and hitchhiked down to Love Field and got there. It took me quite a while to get there, about 9, and just messed around there until the President come in, whatever time that was. And then I didn't get to see him good at all. So I caught a bus and went over, went downtown and I just, I don't know, happened to pick that place at the Depository, and I stood at the corner of Elm and Houston.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you leave Love Field before the President did?
Mr. WORRELL - Oh, yes.
Mr. SPECTER - Why did you happen to leave Love Field before he left?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, so I could see him better.
Mr. SPECTER - Couldn't you get a good view of him a Love Field?
Mr. WORRELL - No, I just saw him get off the plane and I figured that I wasn't going to see him good so I was going to get a better place to see him.
Mr. SPECTER - How did you travel from Love Field to Elm and Houston?
Mr. WORRELL - Bus. No, no; I just traveled so far on the bus. I went down to Elm, and took a buds from there. I went down as far as, I don't know where that bus stops, anyway, I got close to there and I walked the rest of the way.
Mr. SPECTER - What time, to the best of your recollection, did you arrive at the intersection of Elm and Houston?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, about 10, 10:30, 10:45, something around there. There weren't many people standing around there then.
Mr. SPECTER - Well about how long before the Presidential motorcade came to Elm and Houston did you get there?
Mr. WORRELL - An hour; an hour and a half.
WOW,,,,
if you throw out Worrell' ludicrous times you could put him on the bus!
Imagine Bledsoe seeing this Twenty-year-old high school dropout. I wonder if he always wore glasses or he forgot them that day and thus couldn't see far away, ie needed to get close to parade.
He is an avis bus rider. http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0436-001.gif
He is also an avid bullshitter. He had to go home by bus and see what happened on TV most likely.
Worrell along with Jackson in the press car, and Dan Rather, suffer from Brian Williams syndrome.
Wanting to inject oneself into a story because to do so is okay as long as your adding to the story.
Worrell added the person coming from the back door and like Jackson the rifle.
Only Worrell saw a rifle sticking out far enough so you can look up from below on the sidewalk and see the barrel and some of the stock sticking out beyond the brickwork...oy vey
These folks whom mis-remember, whom injected themselves, forget the diminutive size of that rifle. It would not protrude from the window as such is claimed.
Even in the Shanneyfelt recreation photo, the rifle is not protruding.
If seated and with two boxes in front of him the short armed 'sniper' would have to wave the gun out the window with one arm extended to get it 'out the window'. Then why didn't the boy's on Five see it protruding?
Most excellent video with 6th floor torn up still, and other goodies!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExsNj9H7LbA
Video makes me think LHO took a cab to Neely Street, went into 214, got his "pistol", a loaner from a friend, and in the hiding spot was James Jackson's pay stub which got mixed with his fake wallet, papers, communist manifesto, etc. Haha
He then goes to movies. Where cop says "Here He Is", while others are being frisked in the front rows.
Stuart L Reed heard a cop state out front of the theater that the suspect 'killed the president',.
Any ways
Video shows man sitting and firing from behind two boxes would not have 38" weapon protrude from window of that building.
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir, I looked up and saw the rifle, but I would say about 6 inches of it. HOGWASH
Mr. WORRELL - I went east.
Mr. SPECTER - You went in an easterly direction how many blocks down Pacific?
Mr. WORRELL - I went down to Market and from Market I went on Ross.
Mr. SPECTER - You went left on Market down to Ross, and then?
Mr. WORRELL - From Ross I went all the way to Ervay.
Mr. SPECTER - Where were you heading for at the time?
Mr. WORRELL - For the bus stop near my mother's office. And I rode the bus from there out to the school and hitchhiked the rest of the way to Farmer's Branch.
Okay he rode from Evray and Ross to Thomas Jefferson High School.
That is far enough away from his home he could hitchhike.
Why not just blend in with other students and take the school bus home? He was still enrolled.
Again the sense of reason Cooper asks the question that got Worrell to slip up. Remember he never saw more than the tip of the gun a few inches.
Senator COOPER - You stated that, I believe, you looked up after you had heard the first report?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - You looked up and saw the barrel of a rifle, and then the rifle fired. What made you know that it fired?
Mr. WORRELL - Pardon?
Senator COOPER - How did you know it was fired when you were looking at it?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, I saw what you might call a little flame and smoke.
Senator COOPER - You saw something that came out of the barrel?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Were you looking at it when you heard the third report?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir, looking at it, turning around and started to run.
Senator COOPER - Did you see anything then?
Mr. WORRELL - Same thing, a little flash of fire and then smoke. I didn't see it on the fourth one.
Senator COOPER - Did you only look at the car in which the President was riding one time when you saw him slump?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - Did you look back at the President's car then?
Mr. WORRELL - No, sir. I didn't do that because, I mean I didn't know if there was one or more guns, because I wondered why if it was in such rapid succession being a bolt action, I found out later, and I didn't know what was coming off, so I was running to the back of the building because I figured that would be the safest place.
So he slips and says the reason he ran was that fast firing bolt action he did not know was a bolt action till later but still ran beacause of how fast that bolt action was firing, directly over his head.
"What was coming off" is odd to say, ...what was going on... would be correct today, did America somehow flip this saying around post '63?
Reed and his theater pics cement the fact LHO's shirt was so mangled that the pristine transfer could never had survived this gauntlet.
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1480455024
No way Jose!
Which bus? Helen Markham 1:12 Patton and Jefferson bus, Hmmm.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=762993
February 11, 2015 at 4:46 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Beowulf
Member
Posts: 179 Wait, was Markham waiting for McWatters' bus, a later bus on same route, or a bus on a separate route (Beckley, say)? How far was the bus stop from Tippit crime scene? I wonder if bus company was first approached by cops to find Tippit witnesses (the driver himself or anyone he picked up or dropped off near crime scene).
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February 11, 2015 at 5:41 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
February 11, 2015 at 6:28 AM
Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921
I know you can never make assumptions concerning other people's behaviours that you may believe to be odd but Helen could have shaven 30 seconds off that walk by heading down South Crawford Street toward Jefferson rather that the route she took down Patton.
- Ed.Ledoux
- Posts : 3360
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Dallas Transit Transfer
Thu 18 Aug 2016, 4:21 pm
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104
Moderator
Posts: 1104
To follow up on Helen Markham's bus I would need the route tables for the buses she would have taken. Those buses are: Sunset Bus #10 Hampton Bus #11 | ||
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Beowulf Member Posts: 179 | Thanks Lee, should have checked Google Maps first. Jefferson Blvd is south of 10th and north of 12th St. So the SE corner of Patton & 10th is just up the block from the NE corner of Patton & Jefferson. There's no accounting for Markham's actions. Like Joseph Ball said, she's a screwball. | |
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 | No doubt she wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed. Still an outside chance she watched her son shoot Tippit. | |
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Redfern Member Posts: 60 | Like its predecessor on the Education Forum, this is an absolutely fascinating thread. Well done, to all those who have contributed. The situation as I see it can be summarised as follows: Mary Bledose didn't get on the bus until after it had crossed the Trinity into Oak Cliff. Her hazy recollections (she seems to have been mentally impaired) refer to Roy Milton Jones's 'grinning' and observations of Dealey Plaza after the bus had turned round and headed back through central Dallas. The problems with her identification of the torn shirt are self-evident. Cecil McWatters initially believed Roy Milton Jones was the suspect DPD were interested in. Even when giving his testimony months later, he seems fixated on Jones when it is clear he is being asked to talk about Oswald. The confusion in his mind doesn't seem to have been cleared up until well into the hearing. The key issue is, of course, the bus transfer. Ostensibly, it is the only hard evidence supporting an unassisted Oswald getaway. Yet, although supposedly sealed in an evidence envelope at 4.05 pm, McWatters identified it hours later as one he had handed out at lunch-time. The obvious conclusion is that the bus transfer was planted. There is a natural temptation to deduce that this would have involved coercing McWatters into punching a fake bus transfer on the evening of November 22nd. However, I am intrigued by the photographs taken by Stuart L. Reed. Using Google Earth, both pictures of buses on Elm Street appear to have been taken from roughly the same spot (between Record and Market). It shows remarkable presence of mind to stand a couple of hundred yards from the scene where the US president had been assassinated and take pictures of traffic for several minutes. It is even more remarkable that Mr. Reed was present at the Texas Theater to capture an iconic photograph of Oswald's arrest barely one hour later. I am somewhat perplexed by the concept of 'bus transfers'. In the UK, should a bus be stuck in traffic and you wish to get off, there is no refund or transfer and never has been. Regardless, if we take Cecil McWatters' words at face value, just how would Dallas Police know by looking at 004459 that it was issued at Lamar Street? That is, unless they were assured previously that it had been. What if McWatters was telling the truth about his issue of bus transfers (even although the procedures seem rather strange) and that 004459 was a crucial part of the plot to frame Oswald? In other words, a young man who could plausibly be mistaken for Oswald was instructed to get on a bus heading to Oak Cliff shortly after the assassination. He got off a couple of blocks later making sure he had the transfer, which subsequently (and probably quickly) found its way into police hands. | |
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 | That's a pretty neat summation, Redfern. There is still fertile ground to be ploughed on this issue. To use a phrase that John used to describe the transfer system the spokes of the wheel certainly protrude out from the bus and taxi journey into other areas of the case. The dominoes continue to fall. I have some key areas that I believe need some focus and attention. Was there a concerted effort to make it appear Oswald was aboard a bus by instructing certain individuals to be in place so that "evidence" was available or was this story made up on the hop after information was provided to the DPD through an incident of mistaken identity? Where was Oswald living on 11/22? I am absolutley convinced that he did not live at, or ever step foot inside, 1026 North Beckley and, therefore, his accomodation during this period of time is currently unknown. Greg has a hunch that he was actually living at the Paine house throughout the entire period in question which is plausible. We also have to leave on the table the possibility that he was living at 621 North Marsalis with Mary Bledsoe during this entire period and he did not leave his rented room at this property less than a week after moving in. Another possibility is that he was living at the West Neely house in the lead up to the assassination because, after the hard work that Greg and others have put into looking at the evidence relating to this residence, we certainly know that something dodgy was going on concerning its occupants. The balance of evidence strongly suggests the Oswald's did not live there in late '62 and early '63. The William Whaley taxi ride certainly marries up to a drop off point much closer to Neely Street than any of the other properties in the Oak Cliff area and some of the Secret Service timing exercises used Neely Street as a fixed point when timing the taxi journey. The question is why? Now I know that Oswald did not take that cab, and I know that Oswald was not on that bus. This is a categorical certainty that is beyond doubt. If the evidence we have amassed was presented to a jury in a trial there is no way that anyone in their right mind could not see what was really going on. The junior counsellors on the Warren Commission knew this too and, I might add, they knew exactly where the details of the real plot lay. They knew what was really going on. Unfortunately, all the hard graft that the junior guys performing the groundwork resulted in was to provide the more senior lawyers and Commission members to opportunity to block the inquiry at the necessary points and keep a lid on the cover up. How do I know this? Simple. Burt Griffin and Leon Hubbert produced this staff memo for the attention of serial-liars Belin and Ball at the point in time that Whaley, McWatters, Markham and Bledsoe were being prepared for testimony:    What did Belin and Ball do with this information? Fuck all. They took it and they buried it. They prepared their witnesses in such a way as to avoid the uncomfortable questions being raised by the likes of Griffin, Hubert, and Redlich. They hid information. They swerved information. They made testimony over complicated by asking convoluted and bizarre questions. They ignored things. They didn’t ask the right questions; the simple ones. They stopped witnesses dead in their tracks. They lead them. They readied many of them to perjure themselves. This was the most dishonest investigation that took place in the 20th century and when reading the staff memos the level of fraud slaps you in the face. Hubert and Griffin knew, absolutely knew, that Crafard was involved in this thing and instead of being treated as a suspect, as per Hubert and Redlich’s allegations, Crafard was instead treated like some sort of star witness against his former boss, Jack Ruby. Another person of interest who we know very little about is the son of Mary Bledsoe, Porter Bledsoe. Whenever I think about him my spidey-sense goes haywire. I'm always wary of witnesses who were completely ignored. Porter Bledsoe was never officially interviewed by any law enforcement group, yet, he was the one we are led to believe made the phone call to the DPD on the afternoon of 11/22 to tell them about his mother's interaction with a "maniacal" laughing boy. He also sold "evidence" connected to the case in the form of the calendar page containing Oswald's name when he was a tenant at his mother's house. The DPD and FBI saw fit to interview the guy Porter sold the calendar to, Mike Neibur, but couldn't find the time to have a chat with Porter himself. We can have a tendency to think of Porter as a kid given how he is described in Mary's testimony but he was a grown man in his 40's. There is more to Porter than we'll ever be able to discover. I also believe the "dilapidated house" that was originally an "estate" that Harry Olsen was protecting could possibly be Mary Bledsoe's house and if true we have a jigsaw puzzle that needs putting together with this in mind. | |
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Redfern Member Posts: 60 | Lee, I admit to accepting (perhaps blindly) the official story concerning Oswald residing at 1026 North Beckley. However, the arguments you have presented in recent years mean that there are nagging doubts. I shall have to plough through all the relevant information to re-evaluate just how reliable the Warren narrative is on this issue. There are certainly connections between 1026 and DPD personnel that have been brushed over down the years (as has the story concerning a visit by Ruby). With regard to any plot to frame Oswald, how essential would it have been to have him residing in Oak Cliff (at least during week-days)? An other angle that concerns me about Oswald never setting foot in 1026 is that it ramps up the number of people who'd have to lie. Again, I'd have to check, but from memory several people who stayed there described him in detail. Just how reliable would they turn out to be? Earlene Roberts put her foot in it within days by blurting out the story of the police car at 1 pm. Both her and Gladys Johnson gave affidavits speaking of a further visit by DPD before Oswald was officially identified and well before police supposedly knew of the North Beckley address. Nevertheless, given the lies elsewhere in the Warren version, nothing can be taken for granted. As a possible side-note, I am convinced Oswald changed his trousers. As for his shirt, it is possible he changed this too - he had one that was similar in appearance. Returning to the getaway, the angle that struck me about McWatters was this exchange: Mr. BALL - What did they tell you? Mr. McWATTERS - Well, they told me that they had a transfer that I had issued that was cut for Lamar Street at 1 o'clock, and they wanted to know if I knew anything about it. And I, after I looked at the transfer and my punch, said yes, that is the transfer I issued because it had my punch mark on it. I don't believe anyone other than the bus driver would have been able to deduce the transfer was punched at Lamar Street. Certain officers within DPD seemed absolutely positive about this evidence and it was sent to Washington in the early hours. If we are to believe Jesse Curry's words on TV, he wasn't apprised of this information until well into the Saturday. Larry Crafard is obviously worthy of several threads to himself. While it suited the Warren lawyers to cover up any role he had in the assassination, the sheer length of his testimony raises eyebrows. What on earth was that all about? | |
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Hasan Yusuf Moderator Posts: 1411 | I admit to accepting (perhaps blindly) the official story concerning Oswald residing at 1026 North Beckley. However, the arguments you have presented in recent years mean that there are nagging doubts. I for one am convinced that it was a complete crock. | |
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 |
If any of us can crack the 1026 North Beckley nut we can all pack up and go home because it will be job done, Redfern. There is absolutley no credible evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald ever lived at that house other than the small box of stuff that law enforcement pulled out of it. Evidence that could have very easily been swapped out with the person's stuff that was actually living there. Why were Hubert and Griffin so convinced that Larry Crafard might have been in William Whaley's cab? I'm sure they didn't pull it out of their backside. In the staff memo they produced, and it wasn't the first they produced that named Larry Crafard as a possible suspect, they link Whaley's knowledge of Ruby together with their own knowledge that Crafard had been mistaken for Oswald by a couple of dozen people. These men weren't idiots and neither were their superiors up the chain of command. They knew the bus ride was bogus and they knew the taxi ride was bogus and they had a handle on the best fit alternative that did fit the evidence they were reviewing. Not one lead concerning the suspicions they raised was followed up. None of the information they said they wanted from Bledsoe, Roberts, Whaley, and McWatters was collected either through interview or testimony. These junior staff lawyers knew in March 1964 what we now know a half a century later. Their work counted for nought because the seniors used their info to make sure how to continue covering shit up. EDIT: Actually Griffin was as much of a bullshitter as the rest of them because I've just thought on that he was part of the crew that interviewed Earl RUBY and, after writing the staff memo with Hubert, actually delivered some of the WORST questioning that exists in the entire testimony record. Stuff like this: Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Larry Crafard, did you pay him any money? Mr. RUBY. Larry Crafard, I think we just gave him a few dollars, $5 maybe because he was broke when he was living on the road, he didn’t have a dime, so I think I gave him some money. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Larry incidentally contact you any time while you were in Detroit? Mr. RUBY. No, no; I wish he would have, because he hitchhiked all the way down there, and I was driving at the same time, but he didn’t know I lived there, and we-- Mr. GRIFFIN. How was he notified to come to the trial? Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. If I remember correctly he came on his own. He just thought that when all this came out about, you know, Jack getting him to take that picture of Earl Warren, he had the camera or something, I forgot the full details myself, but he is the one who took the picture, right, if I am not mistaken, and he just thought he should come down to help Jack as much as he possibly could. Could I go a little further? Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t really want to pry into this unless this is something you care to reveal. Mr. RUBY. The most important thing is coming up now; I mean one of the most important things. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I do want to reflect this -- that I don’t want to push you into saying things, talking about subjects that you would rather not talk about, and I realize that this is one of them. I mean, WTF? You really couldn't make this shit up could you? My major issue when trying to make sense of this case is the enormity of it. Each segment that you feel you have a handle on suddenly bears a relationship with something else that exists in the record and the segment suddenly balloons. For instance, Mr. and Mrs. Johnson, the owners of 1026 North Beckley, are dodgy as fuck. My research into the Marion Meharg story leads into a series of nuisance phone calls that began plaguing the property in the months after the assassination. Soon after these phone calls Earlene Roberts left her employment there. The caller was asking about a David Miller who, the caller claimed, lived there prior to the assassination and was "Oswalds' friend." Arthur Johnson was overheard talking about this with someone in a coffee shop and was specifically asking the person he was with whether he had ever heard of a David LEON Miller. When the FBI interviewed Johnson he claimed this conversation never took place. Interestingly, David Miller was a pseudonym for David Yaras. The phone calls were put down to a bitterly jealous and somewhat obsessive Marion Meharg who was estranged from his wife and sons after she left him for someone called David Miller whom she married. No interview with Mrs. Miller exists but the FBI did interview her mother who painted Meharg as a deranged lunatic. Coincidently, the mother's name was Bernice CLICK. By another coincidence the neighbours of Arthur and Gladys Johsons were called the Millers. NEVER INTERVIEWED. Not even interviewed when it came to finding out which neighbour had been overheard having a conversation about Jack Ruby parking on their driveway when he went to visit Oswald at the 1026 property. If an Oswald was living at 1026 North Beckley then it wasn't our Lee Oswald and it certainly wasn't a CIA doppelganger raised from birth to be an Oswald twin. It was someone simply pretending to be him and this is where, I believe, Larry Crafard comes in. It's no coincidence that Jack Ruby met with Bertha Cheek, Earlene Roberts sister, on November 18th, 1963. I'll say one thing about some of the people who stayed at 1026 North Beckley and were interviewed. They should have gotten their stories straight before trying to convince us about Oswald's residence there. I will not accept that two Mr. LEEs were living at that property at the same time - Mr. O. H. Lee and Mr. H. (LEON) Lee. I do not accept Mr. Herbert Leon Lee's story about sharing a room with James Watson because when James Watson was interviewed he never mentions Mr. Herbert Leon Lee. Mr Herbert Leon Lee says he doesn't remember Lee Oswald living there but that James Watson might and try as I might, I have a really hard time believing that Mr. Herbert Leon Lee left being a floor layer after 30 years to become a Police Officer. There is a much bigger story to 1026 North Beckley and we haven't yet uncovered it. You are right about how the police knew it was a transfer from LAMAR. They wouldn't. But as we see in the McWatters testimony it appears that the DPD were telling him what happened rather than the other way around. | |
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Paul Francisco Paso Administrator Posts: 729 | You guys have well and truly debunked (fuck I hate that word) the bus story. It is totally fabricated. All the obvious circumstantial evidence has been challenged and dismissed beyond any reasonable doubt. Any fair minded person can see that for themselves. You really can't afford to believe anything they told us after this. This thread has been fucking awesome. I just wanted to also congratulate everyone who has contributed. You don't get this type of research anywhere else. This to me is groundbreaking stuff. | |
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Stan Dane Moderator Posts: 1239 | Indeed, you don't get this type of research anywhere else. ROKC is first and foremost about solid, evidence-based research and as with Sean Murphy's Prayer Man thread, when you see it unfold, it's a beautiful thing to watch. To Ed, Lee and the other contributors, I tip my hat to you. | |
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Beowulf Member Posts: 179 | So if not by the McWatters bus and Whaley taxi then how did Oswald end up In Oak Cliff in time for his arrest at Texas Theatre? I doubt he had time to walk there from TSBD so did he leave the scene by another bus, by taxi the whole way, by someone he knew with a car (a station wagon, say) or by hitching a ride with a stranger? I think that boxes the compass of possibilities. | |
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Greg Site Owner Posts: 2048 |
You forgot clicking his heels together and wishing. It is a conundrum. Getting a lift, because there are witnesses to it, would seem the most plausible. But that would tend to suggest he was involved somehow - and I don't believe he was (although there may be a scenario whereby he is picked up but is still a complete unknowing patsy...) The problem with the other options is lack of anyone coming forward... yet in reality, no one did re McWatter's bus and Whaley's cab either. Any phone call from Porter to the cops had to be about Milton Jones... I think I just talked myself into the clicking of heels getaway theory....! | |
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Greg Site Owner Posts: 2048 |
Hear, hear! | |
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Beowulf Member Posts: 179 | Per Google Maps, the 3.2 miles between TSBD and Texas Theatre is a 1 hour, 5 minute walk or a 9 minute car ride (on surface streets. If he didn't stop by the boarding house we can assume he went right from TSBD to TT, yes? | |
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Colin Crow Member Posts: 262 |
Brings us back to Roger Craig. This is going from memory but anyway...... Early on the DPD seemed to accept the Craig station wagon theory. It could be Oswald, the shooter or nothing of importance. If it was Oswald and he did not want to reveal an "accomplice" could he have introduced a "bus" scenario in order to protect the driver. At some point the order came down from on high to pour cold water on any thought of conspiracy. Hence Craig must be wrong. Oswald has to be the only person involved. So they go with the bus story. McWatters is selected and a transfer ticket added as icing. The problem is now one of timing.....he needs to be at North Beckley by 1pm at the latest. A cab is introduced.....Whally inducted......Oswald actually goes along with the story during interrogation to protect the driver. | |
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Paul Francisco Paso Administrator Posts: 729 |
According to Roger Craig, Oswald may have already have let the cat out of the bag. Mr. CRAIG - Captain Fritz then asked him about the---uh---he said, "What about this station wagon?" And the suspect interrupted him and said, "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine"---I believe is what he said. "Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it." And--uh--Captain Fritz then told him, as close as I can remember, that, "All we're trying to do is find out what happened, and this man saw you leave from the scene." And the suspect again interrupted Captain Fritz and said, "I told you people I did." And--uh--yeah--then, he said--then he continued and he said, "Everybody will know who I am now." And he was leaning over the desk. At this time, he had risen partially out of the chair and leaning over the desk, looking directly at Captain Fritz. | |
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Lee Farley Administrator Posts: 921 |
Greg is spot on. It's a conundrum. The minute we try to explain how he did get back home, wherever home may have been, we end up with 500 different scenarios. The old curmudgeon Raymond J. Carroll used to use the question to divert attention away from the evidence falling to pieces concerning the bus and taxi rides. "How did he get home then?" My stock answer was hot air balloon. | |
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