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Roll-call Remedy Reprise
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Jake_Sykes
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greg_parkerAdmin- Posts : 8368
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Roll-call Remedy Reprise
Sat 02 Dec 2017, 10:12 am
First topic message reminder :
The first thing to know about the TSBD roll-call is that it never happened. There was no roll-call. Roy Truly mentioned no such thing. Captain Fritz never said that Truly mentioned anything like that.
The first official information about a roll-call came from Gerald Hill who testified on April 8, 1964 that “I asked the captain why he wanted him [Oswald], and he said, 'Well, he was employed down at the Book Depository and he had not been present for a roll-call of the employees.”
But the roll-call story had been printed in the media well before that. For example, on Nov 28, 1963, the Dallas Morning News reported that “When Oswald failed to answer a roll-call in the Texas School Book Depository after a rifleman shot President Kennedy from its 6th floor, officers issued a pickup. Records in the building showed Oswald lived at Irving.”
The last we hear of a roll-call came from Buell Wesley Frazier during a 2002 CSPAN interview where he described a roll-call being made, including describing how names were called and how you had to respond. He also added the crucial detail that this was when Oswald was noted as missing, but that this was only adversely regarded when it was realized he was not coming back.
This is difficult to reconcile with the known facts.
But it’s an implausibility that skates by those not overly familiar with the evidence. It will seem right to those will have a vague memory of reading about a roll-call, and it will seem right to others just because it sounds like something that should have happened.
Moreover, as Ed pointed out, if you had a name, why not broadcast it? Instead, the description put out was not that of Oswald and no name was attached to it. The broadcast description was that of a generic young white male.
In some ways, the role of the Warren Commission was to unscramble the omelet that the first investigation had created. Case in point: Captain Glenn King of the DPD gave a speech before the American Society of Newspaper Editors. In that speech, King stated:
“At the location of the assassination investigators were able to quickly determine that an employee had been at work prior to the assassination, but was missing after the offense. A description of this man was secured and broadcast on the police radio. The description was “a slender white male, about 30 years of age, about 5; 10” tall, weighing about 165 pounds, carrying what looked like a 30-30 rifle or some type of Winchester.”
It has to be assumed that King had plenty of time to make sure he had the right story. After all, you’re addressing professional fact-checkers. That should be enough to ensure you take care to be accurate. Yet here we see again, despite claiming they had a name, no name was broadcast - just an incorrect description.
How did the Warren Commission address this issue? They addressed it in their rumors and speculation section:
Speculation--A detailed and remarkably clear description of Oswald was sent over the police radio in Dallas at 12:36 p.m., November 22, 1963.
Commission finding--The radio logs of the Dallas Police Department and the Dallas County Sheriff's Office show that no description of a suspect in the assassination of the President was broadcast before 12 :45 p.m. on that day. No reference to Oswald by name was broadcast before he was arrested. The description of the suspect that was broadcast was similar to that of Oswald, but it lacked some important specific details such as color of hair and eyes. The information for the initial broadcasts most probably came from Howard Brennan, who saw Oswald in the window when he was firing the rifle.
No roll-call – no broadcast description or name.
Yet there is no doubt that Oswald’s name was given to Fritz by Truly. It was overheard by reporter Kent Biffle. But Truly had no real basis for giving out Oswald’s name. He had allegedly seen him in the 2nd floor lunch room 90 seconds after the shooting, and in any case, as Ochus Campbell told the press, “Of course he and the others were on their lunch hour…” though Campbell inexplicably then added “but he did not have permission to leave the building and we haven't seen him since." Of course, no one required permission to leave the building during their lunch break… which would be why Truly claimed it took 15 minutes after returning from leading the charge upstairs in search of the sniper to notice Oswald was not around. That now moves him into being missing on company time. It also however should have been of no concern since by now, the police were stopping anyone entering the building, and Truly knew others were not present for this reason.
The cops were making a rod for their own backs. Now they had to suggest Tippit was killed because he stopped Oswald due to Oswald matching the description from Dealey Plaza even though he only matched with wide margins of error in weight and age. Apart from that, who knows how many others Tippit passed in his driving around who also “matched” this generic description?
It was getting almost schizophrenic in the DPD.
Whilst claiming that the JFK shooter was stopped by Tippit on the basis of the broadcast description, they were ignoring the fact that another description was broadcast from Tippit witnesses that was only vaguely similar to what came out of Dealey Plaza.
After all the dust settled, no cop - wisely - was prepared to say they suspected it was the same guy. How could they? This guy was different in appearance and was wielding a handgun, not a rifle. At that point, no one knew Oswald had allegedly gone “home”, changed and grabbed another gun.
But were those denials by police true? Did one or more in fact “know” it was “the same” person in both murders? Reporter Vic Robertson was a witness at the Texas Theater. During his Warren Commission testimony, he was asked if he had any idea that the person being arrested might be the same person who killed the president. Robertson responded, If I hadn't, I wouldn't have been there. It seems logical that the only source Robertson could have for that information would be the police.
Let us now return to the TSBD to discover how Oswald really left.
We know Truly told Lumpkin that Oswald was missing, and then went upstairs to tell Fritz. We know from Truly’s testimony that there was some fudging going on with the time-frame for this. We know that this triggered precisely no broadcast of an accurate description or Oswald’s name. We know that Fritz met with Sheriff Decker before going back to the Dallas Police HQ where he found his man already under arrest on the Tippit murder.
What has been missed in all of this however, unravels the whole story of Oswald’s alleged escape. Almost amusingly, the only person not to bury it was Jesse Currie who included the information in his book, otherwise the only place it can be found is in the report of the Texas AG.
Starting on page 21 of that report, it reads:
“As each office and floor was cleared, the employees were stopped by Kaminsky and Mr. Truly, manager of the firm, at the front door where their names, addresses and telephone numbers were written down and they were identified by Mr. Truly as to their employment. “
Kaminksy worked under Revill and the list compiled was later typed and became known as Revill’s list.
The first name on that list reads as “Harvey Lee Oswald”. In the real world, being first named on such a list would indicate you were the first person cleared to leave. But no. To some, that was never even a consideration. As always happens, conspiracy just grows around such seeming anomalies. The biggest belief along those lines encountered was that the name and address for Oswald on this list had been supplied by Military Intelligence and some vague notion that Col Jones ex of 112th MIG had spilled the beans on it during his HSCA interview.
It’s wishful thinking and the need to create mega-conspiracies and that’s all it is. It never happened. Jones said no such thing and there is not one iota of evidence in existence that supports that information coming from any intelligence source.
It came from Lee Harvey Oswald – not the army, not the CIA and not some imaginary doppelganger.
What the list shows is a person listed as Harvey Lee Oswald, with an address at 605 Elsbeth. That slightly wrong information only fuels the suspicion.
It does however have a rational, non-conspiratorial explanation. Oswald approached Kaminsky and Truly and was questioned about his identity, was cleared as an employee by Truly and then asked to “step aside” as per the testimony of Postal Inspector, Harry Holmes.
But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."
In context, the above played out at the front entrance, exactly where Truly and Kaminsky were station. At that stage, they were probably still getting themselves organized and when they were ready, Oswald flashed his old library card at Kaminsky.
The library card upside down now reads left to right "Harvey Lee Mr Oswald". Additionally the smudged "2" upside down could be mistaken for a 5. Read quickly under such dire circumstances, the brain would in my opinion, disregard the “Mr.” Shown below is the top of Kaminsky's list after it was typed.
In short, Oswald left the same way everyone else did and received clearance to leave. He just happened to be the first.
Oswald could not have known about this process for leaving unless he himself had experienced it. But the information about it was buried, and the incident tweaked and switched to the 2nd floor lunchroom which made it theoretically possible for Oswald to have gotten down in time from the so-called sniper’s nest.
But the evidence does not stop there. Earliest newspaper accounts – quoting police – also confirm this happening at the front door. The cops were giving this information out before it was realized how destructive it was of Oswald’s guilt.
In one early newspaper account, it confirms that “police were posited at exits to the warehouse. Police said a man, identified as Oswald, walked through the door of the warehouse and was stopped by a policeman. Oswald told the policeman that “I work here” and when another employee confirmed that he did, the policeman let Oswald walk away.
From the Sydney Morning Herald. This initial account of the assassination quotes an un-named police source now known to be Det. Hicks
We also have the transcript of the HSCA interview with fellow employee James Jarman:
What we are left with is that Truly allowed Oswald to leave and then reported him missing. He set the rabbit loose and then sent the hounds after him. The roll-call was fabricated to help cover this up.
But we will get to Truly and his role in our final talk.
The first thing to know about the TSBD roll-call is that it never happened. There was no roll-call. Roy Truly mentioned no such thing. Captain Fritz never said that Truly mentioned anything like that.
The first official information about a roll-call came from Gerald Hill who testified on April 8, 1964 that “I asked the captain why he wanted him [Oswald], and he said, 'Well, he was employed down at the Book Depository and he had not been present for a roll-call of the employees.”
But the roll-call story had been printed in the media well before that. For example, on Nov 28, 1963, the Dallas Morning News reported that “When Oswald failed to answer a roll-call in the Texas School Book Depository after a rifleman shot President Kennedy from its 6th floor, officers issued a pickup. Records in the building showed Oswald lived at Irving.”
The last we hear of a roll-call came from Buell Wesley Frazier during a 2002 CSPAN interview where he described a roll-call being made, including describing how names were called and how you had to respond. He also added the crucial detail that this was when Oswald was noted as missing, but that this was only adversely regarded when it was realized he was not coming back.
This is difficult to reconcile with the known facts.
But it’s an implausibility that skates by those not overly familiar with the evidence. It will seem right to those will have a vague memory of reading about a roll-call, and it will seem right to others just because it sounds like something that should have happened.
Moreover, as Ed pointed out, if you had a name, why not broadcast it? Instead, the description put out was not that of Oswald and no name was attached to it. The broadcast description was that of a generic young white male.
In some ways, the role of the Warren Commission was to unscramble the omelet that the first investigation had created. Case in point: Captain Glenn King of the DPD gave a speech before the American Society of Newspaper Editors. In that speech, King stated:
“At the location of the assassination investigators were able to quickly determine that an employee had been at work prior to the assassination, but was missing after the offense. A description of this man was secured and broadcast on the police radio. The description was “a slender white male, about 30 years of age, about 5; 10” tall, weighing about 165 pounds, carrying what looked like a 30-30 rifle or some type of Winchester.”
It has to be assumed that King had plenty of time to make sure he had the right story. After all, you’re addressing professional fact-checkers. That should be enough to ensure you take care to be accurate. Yet here we see again, despite claiming they had a name, no name was broadcast - just an incorrect description.
How did the Warren Commission address this issue? They addressed it in their rumors and speculation section:
Speculation--A detailed and remarkably clear description of Oswald was sent over the police radio in Dallas at 12:36 p.m., November 22, 1963.
Commission finding--The radio logs of the Dallas Police Department and the Dallas County Sheriff's Office show that no description of a suspect in the assassination of the President was broadcast before 12 :45 p.m. on that day. No reference to Oswald by name was broadcast before he was arrested. The description of the suspect that was broadcast was similar to that of Oswald, but it lacked some important specific details such as color of hair and eyes. The information for the initial broadcasts most probably came from Howard Brennan, who saw Oswald in the window when he was firing the rifle.
No roll-call – no broadcast description or name.
Yet there is no doubt that Oswald’s name was given to Fritz by Truly. It was overheard by reporter Kent Biffle. But Truly had no real basis for giving out Oswald’s name. He had allegedly seen him in the 2nd floor lunch room 90 seconds after the shooting, and in any case, as Ochus Campbell told the press, “Of course he and the others were on their lunch hour…” though Campbell inexplicably then added “but he did not have permission to leave the building and we haven't seen him since." Of course, no one required permission to leave the building during their lunch break… which would be why Truly claimed it took 15 minutes after returning from leading the charge upstairs in search of the sniper to notice Oswald was not around. That now moves him into being missing on company time. It also however should have been of no concern since by now, the police were stopping anyone entering the building, and Truly knew others were not present for this reason.
The cops were making a rod for their own backs. Now they had to suggest Tippit was killed because he stopped Oswald due to Oswald matching the description from Dealey Plaza even though he only matched with wide margins of error in weight and age. Apart from that, who knows how many others Tippit passed in his driving around who also “matched” this generic description?
It was getting almost schizophrenic in the DPD.
Whilst claiming that the JFK shooter was stopped by Tippit on the basis of the broadcast description, they were ignoring the fact that another description was broadcast from Tippit witnesses that was only vaguely similar to what came out of Dealey Plaza.
After all the dust settled, no cop - wisely - was prepared to say they suspected it was the same guy. How could they? This guy was different in appearance and was wielding a handgun, not a rifle. At that point, no one knew Oswald had allegedly gone “home”, changed and grabbed another gun.
But were those denials by police true? Did one or more in fact “know” it was “the same” person in both murders? Reporter Vic Robertson was a witness at the Texas Theater. During his Warren Commission testimony, he was asked if he had any idea that the person being arrested might be the same person who killed the president. Robertson responded, If I hadn't, I wouldn't have been there. It seems logical that the only source Robertson could have for that information would be the police.
Let us now return to the TSBD to discover how Oswald really left.
We know Truly told Lumpkin that Oswald was missing, and then went upstairs to tell Fritz. We know from Truly’s testimony that there was some fudging going on with the time-frame for this. We know that this triggered precisely no broadcast of an accurate description or Oswald’s name. We know that Fritz met with Sheriff Decker before going back to the Dallas Police HQ where he found his man already under arrest on the Tippit murder.
What has been missed in all of this however, unravels the whole story of Oswald’s alleged escape. Almost amusingly, the only person not to bury it was Jesse Currie who included the information in his book, otherwise the only place it can be found is in the report of the Texas AG.
Starting on page 21 of that report, it reads:
“As each office and floor was cleared, the employees were stopped by Kaminsky and Mr. Truly, manager of the firm, at the front door where their names, addresses and telephone numbers were written down and they were identified by Mr. Truly as to their employment. “
Kaminksy worked under Revill and the list compiled was later typed and became known as Revill’s list.
The first name on that list reads as “Harvey Lee Oswald”. In the real world, being first named on such a list would indicate you were the first person cleared to leave. But no. To some, that was never even a consideration. As always happens, conspiracy just grows around such seeming anomalies. The biggest belief along those lines encountered was that the name and address for Oswald on this list had been supplied by Military Intelligence and some vague notion that Col Jones ex of 112th MIG had spilled the beans on it during his HSCA interview.
It’s wishful thinking and the need to create mega-conspiracies and that’s all it is. It never happened. Jones said no such thing and there is not one iota of evidence in existence that supports that information coming from any intelligence source.
It came from Lee Harvey Oswald – not the army, not the CIA and not some imaginary doppelganger.
What the list shows is a person listed as Harvey Lee Oswald, with an address at 605 Elsbeth. That slightly wrong information only fuels the suspicion.
It does however have a rational, non-conspiratorial explanation. Oswald approached Kaminsky and Truly and was questioned about his identity, was cleared as an employee by Truly and then asked to “step aside” as per the testimony of Postal Inspector, Harry Holmes.
But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."
In context, the above played out at the front entrance, exactly where Truly and Kaminsky were station. At that stage, they were probably still getting themselves organized and when they were ready, Oswald flashed his old library card at Kaminsky.
The library card upside down now reads left to right "Harvey Lee Mr Oswald". Additionally the smudged "2" upside down could be mistaken for a 5. Read quickly under such dire circumstances, the brain would in my opinion, disregard the “Mr.” Shown below is the top of Kaminsky's list after it was typed.
In short, Oswald left the same way everyone else did and received clearance to leave. He just happened to be the first.
Oswald could not have known about this process for leaving unless he himself had experienced it. But the information about it was buried, and the incident tweaked and switched to the 2nd floor lunchroom which made it theoretically possible for Oswald to have gotten down in time from the so-called sniper’s nest.
But the evidence does not stop there. Earliest newspaper accounts – quoting police – also confirm this happening at the front door. The cops were giving this information out before it was realized how destructive it was of Oswald’s guilt.
In one early newspaper account, it confirms that “police were posited at exits to the warehouse. Police said a man, identified as Oswald, walked through the door of the warehouse and was stopped by a policeman. Oswald told the policeman that “I work here” and when another employee confirmed that he did, the policeman let Oswald walk away.
From the Sydney Morning Herald. This initial account of the assassination quotes an un-named police source now known to be Det. Hicks
We also have the transcript of the HSCA interview with fellow employee James Jarman:
What we are left with is that Truly allowed Oswald to leave and then reported him missing. He set the rabbit loose and then sent the hounds after him. The roll-call was fabricated to help cover this up.
But we will get to Truly and his role in our final talk.
_________________
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-----------------------------
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Vinny- Posts : 3409
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Re: Roll-call Remedy Reprise
Sun 07 Apr 2019, 1:42 am
_________________
Out With Bill Shelley In Front.
barto- Posts : 3691
Join date : 2015-07-21
Re: Roll-call Remedy Reprise
Wed 10 Apr 2019, 10:53 am
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Ed.Ledoux- Posts : 3361
Join date : 2012-01-04
Re: Roll-call Remedy Reprise
Sun 28 Apr 2019, 5:34 pm
Thats a telling lie Bart.
They are putting words in a dead man's lips
Oswald was out with Shelley in front watching the parade per Hosty's notes.
This is an attempt to get shelley off that hook.
Perhaps any comments by Bill about no more work overheard by others too. And shelley/lovelady bs about staying on the steps ... you can see through the holes in so many stories with this one doc.
Seriously
Who is buying lee standing about for ten minutes outside after the excitement ... no films or photos capture that touching scene between middle management and worker Oswald.
Was this supposed to take place out front?
Shelley more worried about work than the country or president looks bad too, cops swarm the building and you are worried about work,,, didnt lee mention almost getting shot over a beverage upstairs?
Gee wonder why not.
They mean to say that after this supposed baker encounter with a drawn pistol pointed at him etc lee is hanging out chating about time and wage questions with employer and what, waiting to see Baker again ... ugh , ... at earliest time, given the recreation timing of three minutes to exit from sixth floor, is 12:38. So he supposedly wanders off, unseen by fellow workers, till 2013 wink wink ..., and leaving between 12:38-12:43 he is definitely missing cecils bus and whaleys cab. A nonstarter for commission counsel Belin.
This is a window into their wicked ways.
Thanks brah!
Ed
They are putting words in a dead man's lips
Oswald was out with Shelley in front watching the parade per Hosty's notes.
This is an attempt to get shelley off that hook.
Perhaps any comments by Bill about no more work overheard by others too. And shelley/lovelady bs about staying on the steps ... you can see through the holes in so many stories with this one doc.
Seriously
Who is buying lee standing about for ten minutes outside after the excitement ... no films or photos capture that touching scene between middle management and worker Oswald.
Was this supposed to take place out front?
Shelley more worried about work than the country or president looks bad too, cops swarm the building and you are worried about work,,, didnt lee mention almost getting shot over a beverage upstairs?
Gee wonder why not.
They mean to say that after this supposed baker encounter with a drawn pistol pointed at him etc lee is hanging out chating about time and wage questions with employer and what, waiting to see Baker again ... ugh , ... at earliest time, given the recreation timing of three minutes to exit from sixth floor, is 12:38. So he supposedly wanders off, unseen by fellow workers, till 2013 wink wink ..., and leaving between 12:38-12:43 he is definitely missing cecils bus and whaleys cab. A nonstarter for commission counsel Belin.
This is a window into their wicked ways.
Thanks brah!
Ed
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