Piling on Norman

What started out as a legitimate question at the Ed Forum, has turned into an excuse to pile on Norman concerning his HSCA interview in which he has Oswald pretending to shoot with his finger and saying "pew" at news of the motorcade.

The only person who seems to believe it may be true is Bill Kelly.

Good for you, Bill. You get top marks. Oswald had been in the habit of doing exactly what Norman said. I know this because instead of just dumping on Norman when I read his HSCA interview, I racked my brain for anything that might shed light - and then I recalled - someone from Reilly's testified to the WC about the exact same thing.

A quick check of testimony from Reily employees uncovered this:

Mr. Le BLANC - Well, toward the last it be n to get pretty regular, and that is when I think they decided to let him go. And another thing I recall: He had this habit, every time he would walk past you he would just [demonstrating] just like a-kid playing cowboys or something--you know, he used his finger like a gun. He would go, "Pow" and I used to look at him, and I said, "Boy, what a crackpot this guy is!"
Mr. LIEBELER - That is what you thought?
Mr. Le BLANC - Yes. Right off the bat I said, "This is a crackpot"; right off.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did he seem to just use his fingers like that, as a gun, as a joke, you mean, or----
Mr. Le BLANC - Well, I didn't know what to think of it, you know, because he--on quite a number of times he would do that, you know. If you would walk past him, he would do that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did he smile or laugh, or what?
Mr. Le BLANC - No. When he would do it, he wouldn't even crack a smile. That is what used to get me. If somebody would be doing something in a joking .manner, at least they would smile, but he was one that very seldom would talk or would smile either, and that is why I could never figure him out.

Nothing should be read into this in regard to the assassination. It was just a habit - and one that went back to childhood... which is also in the records for anyone who wants to find it...

What I will say is that comments about disregarding the HSCA interviews of the TSBD employees are way out of line. These people were interviewed in their own comfort zones - and without any pressure to make the story fit. I believe they felt for once that they could tell what they really recalled without filtering it through the government lens. There is much to learn from those interviews and disparaging them as worthless is a great disservice to those looking for real answers.

I disagree with Mr. Parker in his optimistic view of the reliability of HSCA testimony based on the lack of pressure. Let's not forget, however, that witnesses such as George De Mohrenschildt were under pressure as late as 1977, when he claimed to be scared and committed "suicide."

Well, Mr Perez... let's just go back to what I actually said...

"What I will say is that comments about disregarding the HSCA interviews of the TSBD employees are way out of line. These people were interviewed in their own comfort zones - and without any pressure to make the story fit. I believe they felt for once that they could tell what they really recalled without filtering it through the government lens. There is much to learn from those interviews and disparaging them as worthless is a great disservice to those looking for real answers."

It should be reasonably clear that I was confining my comments to TSBD employees - and I had in mind specifically the Black employees.

Let's also not ignore the fact that memory deteriorates with the passage of time. Could it be that Norman was a victim of "source monitoring error," whereby someone remembers something (i.e. the gesture) but misremembers the source (i.e. when and where it happened). It may be that Norman remembered Oswald doing the gun thing at various times, but associated it with the killing 14 years later. I counted 7 or 8 interviews prior to 1977 (per Pat Speer) where Norman said nothing about it.

Nor did I say that their memory was more reliable in 1977. I very deliberately said that they felt more at ease to state accurately WHAT THEY RECALLED. I DELIBERATELY said NOTHING about how accurate that recall might be - again - only that it was an HONEST recall.

Yes. It is possible Norman was recalling other times when he did this and mis-attributed it to that morning. It is also possible your generalizing about aging and memory simply doesn't apply to Norman. Memory is a very complex issue.

The larger point is that Oswald WAS in the habit of doing it. LeBlanc was not the only other witness to it - another was from his time in New York in the early '50s (which, as a side issue, is another nail in the coffin of the "Harvey" nonsense. Unless both Harvey and Lee played cowboy and Indians from about 12 years of age, then the same person who did it in New York, also did it at Reily's and again at the TSBD, and wherever else in between).

"if" he did do it at the time Norman recalled, it means nothing. And whether he did it then, or at some other time, your original assertion that Norman must be "(1) mentally challenged, (2) being paid to make this up, or (3) scared about something." is simply wrong.

To the other complaint that Norman only mentioned it once, and Jarman, not at all... so what? Normal human behavior. Different people place different levels of importance on different things - and at different times. Even as individuals, we may do the same - one day not thinking of one aspect of something that happened - at other times, thinking of it, but not mentioning it due to not thinking it important, and at other times, thinking you should mention it, just in case it may be important. It is why interrogation of witnesses and cross-examinations in court take place - to make sure that everything is brought to the surface, no matter what level of importance you personally place on it. LeBlanc may not have mentioned it in any other interview. Others who noticed the same behavior may not have mentioned it ever - for no particular reason other than not thinking it relevant.

Harold Norman is undoubtedly one of the most interesting characters in the entire JFK assassination lore. In his initial interview with the FBI, he said he didn't even recall seeing Oswald on November 22nd. He also neglected to mention that he heard the bolt action of the rifle above him, or the shell casings hitting the floor above him.

His memory would miraculously improve by the time he is interviewed by the SS on the 4th of December. Despite being upheld by LN zealots as a favourite witness, he is ironically one of the best witnesses to a conspiracy. He would go on to tell the WC that he thought the President "slumped or something" after the first shot.

As most people are aware, JFK slumps after Zapruder frame 224 when he is seen clutching at his throat (and I think it's pretty obvious that Connally was hit at frame 224). Anyway, there is plenty of evidence that at least one shot was fired prior to Z-frame 224. Norman would also testify at the BS trial of Oswald in 1986 that the first shot made JFK slump. Connally was adamant that he didn't hear the shot(s) which struck him. Some will argue that he didn't hear the shot(s) because of his horrific injuries. But then how was he able to hear the shot hit the President's head just 4.9 seconds later when he was obviously under severe pain?

Now, if the magic bullet shot was fired from above Norman's head, he would have obviously heard it - only he DIDN'T! Therefore, it came from another location. My guess is that Connally was shot from the 6th/7th floor of the Dal-Tex building.

I hate to sound like I'm promoting myself, but I wrote about this on my blog.

http://jfkthelonegunmanmyth.blogspot.com.au/2012/12/the-shots-at-zapruder-frame-224-why.html

Hasan, please feel free to link to your blog (or anywhere else) any time it seems relevant.

Good to have someone here who can cover this area.

My first impression on reading this "pew" comment by Norman was that it was both an honest and accurate memory. Oswald knew the President was going to get shot at, and Norman did too.

But Norman didn't know that Oswald knew. Oswald was showing him that he'd caught on to him- that he knew Norman was part of a CIA cadre involved in the kill-JFK plot.

Regarding Oswald, I tend to take a Judyth Baker-style hypothesis, that he was part of both a kill-JFK team and simultaneously part of an abort team. He walked a tightrope and was trying to play both sides. I think he was genuinely surprised when he heard shots, down in the 2nd-floor office, incredulous and stoic at the same time, that a coup (which he'd warned about in his writings) had just been attempted.

He was prepared to name the names if he ever got his day in court, but didn't want to betray his handlers while in DPD custody. His handlers, I believe, were CI/SIG at Langley (in concert with ONI) and Counter-Espionage (Division 5, my memory may be off) at the FBI.

Richard, that might be a valid take.... if he did not have a demonstrable history of doing it.

I mean... what was he doing it with LeBlanc for?

FBI Division 5, if memory serves, was called DISC in the Torbitt Document.

greg parker wrote:Hasan, please feel free to link to your blog (or anywhere else) any time it seems relevant.

Good to have someone here who can cover this area.

Thanks, Greg. Will do.