Alex Jones Part 3: Notes on 9/11 Bohemian Grove and Cults etc.

Why JFK and 9-11 don't Mix!

Jones, Watson and Hankey are all JFK/911 advocates. While I have admiration for many '9/11 Truthers'. The big problem is that more than a few people try their best to conjoin the two. I learned from Jim Di Eugenio and Lisa Pease that the assassinations of JFK, RFK, MLK and X were all separate operations. That’s not to say that the same people didn’t organise or contribute to all four but each one has its own culture and peculiarities, for instance in the deaths of the Kennedy brothers Di Eugenio and Pease accumulated evidence indicating CIA involvement and FBI cover up. While King and X on the other hand seem to be genuine multi agency initiatives with the CIA involved in a support role and the FBI and military intelligence pre-dominating.

Thus, as we can see, the business of assassination is not as cut and dry as we think. Outside of the 'lone nut' story each operation runs to a different set of initiatives and need different people. Its not the same people calling the shots, its often the same ‘type’ of people that are willing to do so. Thus, this is the problem we encounter today. A number of people new to the Kennedy assassination have come to it via 9/11. These people are usually younger, under 30 and are stunned when they discover a link between Bush and the Kennedy assassination. Suddenly the Bush family become the king makers and Prescott Bush the patriarch becomes the head of the CIA, and Allen Dulles his underling [http://odeo.com/episodes/24680949-Show-424-Part-1-John-Hankey].

Of course, this is rubbish. But well, when you don't know anything it sounds good. What they forget is the massive cultural impact the assassinations of President Kennedy, RFK, MLK and X had. These impacted every bit as much as the two planes hurtling into the WTC. The assassination of Kennedy led to Vietnam, the disastrous Democratic National convention of 1968, the election of Nixon, the overthrow of Allende in Chile, Watergate and then the brief rise of Gerald Ford whose reign was besieged by numerous government investigations into the role played by US intelligence agencies like the CIA and FBI in political assassinations and illegal surveillance of citizens. Investigations into the Kennedy case by senatorial and congressional committees were whitewashed by the Rockeffeller commission and were buried by a shamed US parliamentary system.

The shadows of these investigations flowed over into the Carter presidency which reluctantly investigated the assassination and found a probable conspiracy to kill president Kennedy, but Carters liberalism frightened the right and then of course the October Surprise was launched which heralded in the age of the Neo Conservative Christian alliance led by Ronald Reagan. By 1982, the Reagan administration had put the Kaibosh on any HSCA recommendations. This, was at a time when there was renewed aggression on behalf of the United States in Latin America, the funding of the Taliban and Saddam Hussein in the Iran-Iraq conflict which went on for a horrific 8 years (and this is only a brief rundown of events). I hasten to add that most of the characters that crop up in 9/11 conspiracy talk, like Dick Cheney, Rumsfeld and Bush actually started to make their marks in the 70’s well after the turmoil of the 60’s.

Im sorry, but most 9/11 truthers probably would'nt be able to tell you the half of it and I'm around about their age. Thus it's pretty clear to myself, that some individuals think that just by believing in conspiracy and spouting off their views that they are assisting the/a struggle. Well, its not a struggle until these jerk off's wander in and think they know it all. Usually these people are ego’s determined to make a name for themselves and in trying to make the next big discovery exaggerate, lie or are unaware they are peddling old news that has been discredited or worked on by someone else (in which case they claim the research as their own). Individuals like Hankey are guilty on all counts.

Carl Ogelsby a well respected commentator and researcher in the Assassination community said in the 1992 documentary ‘Beyond JFK; The Question of Conspiracy’

“We must be careful of running into the ether of our own
imaginations”

I think this has been the single greatest piece of advice that has ever been given to an aspiring researcher. The next is by another great, my friend Lisa Pease who pointed out to that unless one is prepared to ask and learn from those who have gone before you, your dead wood in the fight. Baring this advice in mind I hardly see myself as an expert, because the more I discover, the more I realise how little I really know. With Jones, Watson and Hankey the cycle is in reverse.

If Alex Jones main source for the Kennedy assassination is a motion picture, then its little wonder that his pronouncements about the assassination are inaccurate. People need to realise, if Jones and Watson have blatantly ignored the very best and most up to date research on the Kennedy case, promote dubious literature, show a blatant disregard for formal publication norms, include no bibliographies, utilise an overtly religious bias in their mangling of history and endorse charlatans like Barr McLellan and John Hankey, Jones has no right, none what so ever to declare himself an ‘info warrior’

In reality he's an utterly 'inferior warrior'.

I seriously advise you shop elsewhere. So let’s leave this rather depressing quagmire of Prison Planets dalliances with the Kennedy assassination and the red herring misinformation laden tripe that it is and let’s cruise to California and have us a little fun.

BOHEMIAN GROVE.

Jones is a sensationalist, pure and simple. In terms of attention grabbing stunts his greatest hit revealed to us a very immature bunch of individuals hanging around a huge 35ft Owl called Moloch (yes Moloch) and burning a paper mache body in mock sacrifice to the deity in an infamous rite called the 'Cremation of Care'. This supposedly sinister tale of goings on at Bohemian Grove was a hugely hilarious piece I found online and authored by Jones himself. The expose on the odd goings on there revealed some immature truths about many supposedly respectable Americans. Indeed, ‘Dark Secrets: Inside Bohemian Grove’ remains Jones greatest hit, so to speak. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-820959177057349830)

Running for around 100+ years Bohemian Grove has become the new Area 51 for a number of people. The place is situated somewhere near San Francisco, California on the banks of the Russian River. It is a highly secured and secluded place where the rich elderly and powerful alpha males of society come and play. It has strict admittance levels and entrance is purely by invitation only. It also has a strict non female policy. Can you get what I’m jiving at? Well Dick Nixon certainly did he called the place the most “Faggy Goddamn thing you could ever imagine”(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPb-PN9F2Pc).

Presidents, businessmen and high court judges have all come to take sabbatical's of sorts by the river which has a tradition of fraternity like initiation ceremonies under the all seeing eye of Moloch the Owl who convenes over a commune of urination, male nudity, extravagant drag parties, male strippers and prostitutes. This was all kicked off by a notorious ceremony called the cremation of care in which a mock effigy of a child is burned. The press, Jones laments tried to cover up the nefarious political dealings going on there by focussing on the wild antics of the attendee's rather than the insidious plotting of the Moloch mob. However, the bitter irony here is that Jones fails to notice that his most interesting revelations do indeed feed and hanker towards the Tabloid press. Or maybe he does? Indeed, you may recall in part 1, that I see Jones as the classic hustler. On one hand he criticises the press for undermining his stories credibility. But on the other, he knows that the newspapers and networks raise his profile. By criticising the media's trivialisation of his Bohemian Grove findings, he has been able to cover up the fact that there really isn’t much meat to his project other than getting into Bohemian Grove and seeing a stupid ceremony by some rich homosexual WASP’s in the first place.

This is evidenced in an updated version of Bohemian Grove revelations entitled "The Order of Death". (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-82095917705734983)
Instead of focussing in on the completely banal motivational speeches given by prominent figures like General Norman Schwarzkopf at the place. Jones focuses in on an employee of the Grove who had smuggled out video footage of a jazz act performing in the bar. The musician was loudly booed when it was let slip by the MC that he sought female companionship. According to Jones, the person who filmed the incident was constantly asked by older men to 'accompany them to their bedroom whilst on shift there'. Not to mention he is also quick to use his Nixon’s homophobic comments concerning the grove on his website. (http://www.infowars.com/articles/occult/bg_nixon_tape_homosexuals_at_grove.htm)

Thus what Jones did was successfully reveal to the world the mass hypocrisy, and frat boy like stupidity of some of the US's most conservative and supposedly moral leaders. My hats off to him, he became the PT Barnum of conspiracy overnight. However, one thing Jones fails to mention was that the idea of infiltrating Bohemian Grove was not his idea at all but English Journalist John Ronson’s. This is documented in his book “Them: Adventures with Extremists” (http://www.jonronson.com/them_bohemia.html). Jones clowning paranoia can be seen in Ronson’s documentary series upon which his book was based (http://smf.rantradio.com/rantvideo-general/jon-ronson-documentary-series-%27secret-rulers-of-the-world%27/0/) Jones only convincing point for evil plots being hatched at the Grove is the fact that complex programmes like the Manhattan and Star Wars projects were conceived their. But this is nothing secret, even Jones has to point out that the management of the place are only too proud to point it out. Furthermore, rather than being treated as a hero Ronson, ran foul of the local anti Grove community for helping infiltrate Alex 'wacko' Jones within its confines, with the help of maps supplied by Mary K Moore, a local leftist who supplied the maps Jones and Ronson used to plan their entrance, and who points out that Jones was not the first person to ever infiltrate the Grove.
http://www.sonomacountyfreepress.com/bohos/ronsonletter.html

Though, Mary K Moores letter may have missed the point at what Ronson himself was trying to do, in many ways she is correct. Who in their right mind would want to associate with Alex Jones, unless they were looking for sensationalism? Getting himself into Bohemian Grove had little to do with his journalistic intent but more to do with the money generated by his self promotion as this link here clearly shows
Jones, (http://www.christianmediaresearch.com/jones.html

THE REALITY.

Now before I begin, I would like to point out that I am in no way an apologist for any elites, and I am in no way denying that groups exist. But to say that evil resides in any one place like Bohemian Grove is utterly immature and fanciful. Some people are outright dirt bags. But not all members of societies and groups are evil or have hearts intent on destruction. Indeed, I would wager that in fact most people within these organisations are, in their own way moral people. The problem has been outlined brilliantly in documentaries like the 'Corporation' "The Yes Men' and in any Adam Curtis presentations like the 'Power of Nightmares'. They are often naive, arrogant and genuinely believe that through their own gain they are doing well by and for others and/or we should emulate them to better ourselves (http://www.thecorporation.com/index.cfm?page_id=2). These, people though expert in accruing wealth, are actually quite insane and the corporations they represent are openly psychotic. An example of their gross incompetence was unearthed in an article written in Esquire recently. It turns out that some bright spark Bohemian Grove members own forestry companies that have been deforesting and polluting their 'sacred area' for years. It seems that given time there will hardly be a Grove for them to play in at all. (http://www.vanityfair.com/style/features/2009/05/bohemian-grove200905)

The more one looks at it, it's hard to say how effective or united groups like the Bilderbergers, Tri Lateralists, Skull and Bones etc are or how much competition there is between the varying fraternities within these groups. From what I have seen though interlinked in some ways they don’t seem to present a cohesive force. More like competing power structures. We get hints from time to time of the horror certain individuals residing within these societies are capable of, but whether or not their actions meet with the tacit approval of that group is another case in point. Indeed, whether or not they are part of any group is also another matter. A good example of this was raised by Jim Garrison, the DA of New Orleans who investigated the murder of President Kennedy. Garrison discovered there were in fact many CIA employees who admired Kennedy and even if they did not would not have involved themselves in any operation to kill him. I cannot recall precisely when he said this is on the Garrison Tapes (and my computer is currently on dial up speed) but his statement can be found somewhere in amongst these 10 different parts (http://media.abovetopsecret.com/c/27/John_Barbour/)

However, the evidence that's slowly been accumulated by top notch researchers like Lisa Pease, Jim DiEugenio, John Newman, Gerald McKnight and the late Phil Melanson vindicated Garrison's assertion that a powerful group of extremely rabid individuals in the agency had no such moral problems. The tragedy is, that some people could well have had an inkling of what was happening but they had to put food on the table, pay the mortgage, mow the lawn and put Johnny through college. That's the true essence of conspiracy not because Satan and his socialist buddies will be displeased. Thus, it seems a mite simplistic to put all the ills and woes of the world down to such groups or advocates of the NWO or even the Illuminati.

I'll wrap this part up by pointing out that many prominent leftists or liberals have been Free Masons. Take Salvador Allende for example that didn't stop the CIA from facilitating his overthrow in Chile. Theodore Roosevelt was a 32^nd degree free mason and that did not prevent leading families like the DuPont's being involved in plots to overthrow his government in a military junta. Conservatives, like Richard Nixon didn't get any help from his fellow Bohemians during Watergate. J Edgar Hoover was a rumoured Grove attendee (however I have found little evidence of this) and if he was he clearly never received any help from the mobsters and James Angelton who blackmailed him about his homosexual liaisons. Likewise, Jimmy Carter also a grove member didn't have the protection of the Grover's when the Republicans derailed his re-election campaign. It didn’t stop Ronald Reagan almost being killed by an assassin, it didn’t help George Bush get re-elected over Bill Clinton nor did Clinton's sojourns at the grove save him from being discredited when Monica Lewinsky decided to take a sperm sample. Entrance to Bohemian Grove did not stop Bobby Kennedy (who addressed a Grove retreat) having his brother shot and then fatally stopping bullets himself from at least two gunmen in the Kitchen of the Ambassador Hotel in California in 1968.

Let’s leave this train of thought and return to one of Jones massive shortcomings. That being, his skewed Watsonian like take on history. Jones is an historical anathema and made some appalling references to ancient pagan practices in both “Dark Secrets” And "The Order of Death" which sorely need addressing.

A) The ancient order of Druids is a completely bogus society which originated in London in the 1780’s and established itself in America during the 1830's. (http://www2.hsp.org/collections/balch%20manuscript_guide/html/druid.html) No one knows for sure what rites the actual Celtic Druids practiced and how prevalent ritual sacrifice was. Jones overlooks the fact that much of the information was actually propaganda written by the Romans who were pagans themselves. Indeed it was the Romans who practically wiped these individuals out. There has never ever been any archaeological evidence indicating that the rites of the Wicker man were ever practised. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicker_Man) Jones fails to mention that it was custom in some Celtic and Scandinavian tribes for the leader to be put to be put to death at the end of his term and/or if the tribe's fortunes went downhill but of course this is open to tribal variation. (http://celto-germanic.blogspot.com/2009/01/celtic-god-teutates.html)

C) Jones showed images of the famous bog man findings in which he stated that children's heads were cut off and offered to the gods. The picture he depicted was of a male some 30-40 or so years old known as the 'Tolland Man' who had died of strangulation in what we know today as Denmark. The Youngest of the seven or so bog findings was a girl of about 16 years old. None of the finds were children and the girl at 16 years old would hardly have been considered one at the time. (http://www.longestlife.com/forever.htm) None of these poor individuals were decapitated at all (http://www.tollundman.dk/)

Ancient times were very tough and life then (as it is in the world today) was often brutal and cheap. Religion, helped explain many of the mysteries of the universe. (http://library.thinkquest.org/29033/history/history.htm)
However quaint this may seem many of the ancients knowledge was superior to ours for a millennia. lets take Polynesian (http://www.samlow.com/sail-nav/starnavigation.htm) and Viking circumnavigation (http://www.celestialnavigation.net/vikings.htm) for instance. How does Egyptian architecture grab you? What about the interesting fact that many 'pagan' cultures understood we orbited the sun whilst most Christians thought Earth was at the galactic centre of the Universe. (http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_astronomy.html)

Alex Jones and Paul Watson, Won't tell you that in many places around the world when Christian missionaries first turned up guns usually followed and the massacres that occurred were on a scale far greater than most pagan warlords could comprehend. (http://rwor.org/a/091/pope-en.html) How many of Jones disciples know of the gruesome accounts of Christian Crusaders submitting to cannibalism (http://www.crusades-encyclopedia.com/cannibalism.html). What do they make of the carnage left by Spanish conquistadors? (http://www.helium.com/items/1514287-conquistadors) Not to mention the massacre at Sand Creek led by a Christian Preacher? (http://americancivilwar.com/statepic/co/co001.html) I have to ask Paul Watson is this “divine justice”?

D) Jones believes that all the secret societies that we have today stemmed from ancient Egyptian, Sumerian and Babylonian societies which influenced nearly all aspects of early pagan religion and devil worship. This is pure and utter rubbish. As I said before religions varied the world over. Organisations like the Free Mason's who are amongst the oldest of today's secret societies claim an ancient heritage but they are only slightly more credible than the Ancient order of Druids, who are honest about the fact they are in no way linked to the Iron Age Celts they imitate. (http://www.aoda.org/about.htm) Indeed, the rites of the Masons bare little if any semblance to their supposed forebears and began around the 1700's. (http://www.aoda.org/about.htm)

It was during the 1700-1800's amidst a general loosening of societal and religious constraints in Europe that the emergence of a new moneyed class came about through the Industrial revolution. This was also a period in which archaeology was becoming a very popular pursuit. The ‘antiquarian’ study of ancient cultures in particularly Egyptology and ancient Eastern practices was incredibly fashionable (if a little dubious) in 17^th and 18^th Century England. The ancient East from whence Alex Jones friend Moloch originated is riddled with conflicting accounts of the deity’s name its translation and its appearance. (h[url=http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10443b.htm]ttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10443b.htm)[/url] How on Earth the bone heads at the Bohemian Club came up with the concept of an owl is anybody' guess? Most depictions actually have him as a bulls head with an oven stomach. The cremation of care ceremony practiced today has very little to do with the actual ancient rites in which Moloch was seemingly worshipped. (https://media.photobucket.com/image/moloch/tlthe5th/jones/Frankel_Moloch_30p5.jpg). This last link is rather hilarious and I must point that I am not anybodies friend just because they dislike Alex Jones nor do I agree with the fellows sentiments about Jones in his interlinking articles (this guy seems a little unhinged), but as I have said before Jones must be pretty awful if this type of person can score valid points against him.

THE NOT SO SECRET
GOVERNMENT.

When you see a McDonalds in Kuwait and you see Subway
and Burger King outlet's on US base's in Iraq you can sense something fishy is going on. Put that alongside George Bush and Dick Cheney's baby 'Halliburton' the ‘Black Rock’ mercenary army and its massive involvement in Iraq it's pretty darn obvious what's going on is not secret. The furore about 9/11 is nothing new either. People have forgotten that it was Randolph Hearst's papers that literally created the US's war with Spain in the 1800's because the US government wanted control of the Caribbean and Latin America. (http://www.smplanet.com/imperialism/remember.html) This was years before the establishment of groups like the Builderbergers or Tri Lateral commission.

Thus I've got to get a little bit personal here to stress my point. Does Alex Jones think that when Alexander the Great conquered Persia that the locals went 'Darn Bilderbergers' or when Caesar conquered Gaul, the Celts said 'Shit here comes the Illuminati! When the Praetorian Guard held the Roman Empire to ransom and sold the title of Imperator to the highest bidder were the Romans thinking "I knew the Skull and Bones lot were behind this mess ?" The simple answer is no.

END OF MY RANT.

Well this is the end of my rant. The problem is manifest for those of you who agree with me and heresy for those that inevitably won’t. We, all know there's some bad corrupt stuff going on out there. What distresses me though is that people automatically assume that just because you are interested in the field of political research that Jones has enmeshed himself in that you follow his lead and you concur with idiots like David Icke. I don't want Jones, Paul Watson, Icke or John Hankey representing me on any opinion full stop. Nor hopefully will you, after reading this piece.

The world is run on a lethal and complex mixture of timing, ideology and money. To go any more in depth would further bore the reader whom I congratulate for venturing this far. I guess all I can hope for is that this helps people understand why I feel Jones and his kind are a significant problem in our area of concern (that being the Kennedy assassination). I shudder to think that people prefer Jones to John Pilger, Lisa Pease, Jim DiEugenio, Michael Moore (for his faults) Jon Ronson, Naomi Kline, Louis Theroux, John Sweeney, and Len Osanic amongst numerous others and as a research community we really need to tell these wannabe’s enough is enough.

The most worrying aspect about Jones from what I have picked up in discussions with his advocates of is that they seem to decry anything that they dont understand as manipulation. History, is seen as some sort of force or tool of the powers that be to suppress and confuse the public (which gives Jones flock an excuse to ignore or butcher it to fit their own themes). History, has been butchered in the past, we all know that. But that does not make it's study irrelevant. Its through proper study of it's disembowlment that we learn and grow.

As we have seen in the beginning, the same thing goes for Jones and his hypocritical anti ideology stance. He does not understand political thought, hence he berates any body who does, while he blatantly rips off left wing academics, journalists and authors.

Here's my advice to any Jones follower. Back off! You are not a friend of research, nor are you aiding any cause. Either get with the reality laid down in this blog (and in the writings of my betters) or don't open your mouth. Why? Well, I might have to shut it.
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Jones is closely associated with "We Are Change" - a group swimming in the pack of the "Truth" movement.

Here is a very good analysis of this group:

However, as some of you might well-suspect, “We Are Change” is an ironic misnomer. Further inquiry revealed that the group responsible for the event is neither radical nor reformist; but represents a new and growing form of reactionary right-libertarianism.

They are sometimes wrongly described in the media as a social justice organisation, and have in at least the Brisbane charter, every rule that Jones breaks:

We aim to foster reason and responsibility within the global
movement for truth. We base this in the following values:

1. Awareness of public perception and the need for strategic and
responsible promotion and presentation.
2. Adherence to the scientific method and journalistic standards,
with a focus on facts, substance, and sources.
3. A dedication to rational, respectful, and nonviolent debate and
activism. Fundamental respect in discourse with all individuals,
including those within the government and military, journalists, and
supposed “opponents.”
4. A faith in the honest democratic process and our ability to come
to meaningful and actionable conclusions
(truths).
5. Motivations based in compassion, justice, and truth.

Conversely, we seek to counteract and minimize:

1. Promotion of speculative and unsubstantiated claims.
2. Disruptive, divisive, diversionary, and aggressive behavior.
3. Damaging and marginalizing associations.
4. Organized and intentional sabotage.
5. Highly partisan representations of the movement.
6. Motivations based on ego, hatred, and belittlement.

http://wearechangebrisbane.wordpress.com/about/

We aim to foster reason and responsibility within the global
movement for truth. We base this in the following values:

1. Awareness of public perception and the need for strategic and
responsible promotion and presentation.
2. Adherence to the scientific method and journalistic standards,
with a focus on facts, substance, and sources.
3. A dedication to rational, respectful, and nonviolent debate and
activism. Fundamental respect in discourse with all individuals,
including those within the government and military, journalists, and
supposed “opponents.”
4. A faith in the honest democratic process and our ability to come
to meaningful and actionable conclusions
(truths).
5. Motivations based in compassion, justice, and truth.

Conversely, we seek to counteract and minimize:

1. Promotion of speculative and unsubstantiated claims.
2. Disruptive, divisive, diversionary, and aggressive behavior.
3. Damaging and marginalizing associations.
4. Organized and intentional sabotage.
5. Highly partisan representations of the movement.
6. Motivations based on ego, hatred, and belittlement.

I can't believe this self riteous crap.

Just look at that what this dweeb writes.

Cheers Greg.

Conspirahipocracy is alive and well.

I shudder to think that people prefer Jones to John Pilger, Lisa Pease, Jim DiEugenio, Michael Moore (for his faults) Jon Ronson, Naomi Kline, Louis Theroux, John Sweeney, and Len Osanic

Actually, some people list both Jones as Pilger as "top patriots"!
The Spiritual Awakening of America

This list is on a hell of a lot of sites.

I was a fan of Pilger due to what I perceived as his integrity. He lost me over his various pronouncements on the RFK assassination (he was there on the night).

That aside, it's an interesting list, no?

1) The websites are all in many just a bunch of Sophists seeing who the heck can shout louder.

2) Aaron Russo is a turnip.

All of the heroes listed there support 9/11 reinvestigation. How could you support Alex Jones and dick on Michael Moore? As we have seen he to has his suspicions of 9/11. But, aha, William Blum, doesnt believe in 9/11 nor has Pilger written of it as anything more than an oppurtunistic fraud of which the Bush administration supped upon. Of course John Pilger is not American lol thus I sincerely doubt they have read him and half of this list is just to look cool.

In Distant Voices (I think it is) Pilger writes brilliantly about JFK the film and his time with Robert Kennedy. I dont blame Pilger, Chomsky, Blum, Moore and others for being conservative on the Kennedy assassination and or other issues. I would be to if these freedom movement fellows were about. In fact its the safest why to be, these guys discredit a whole heap of stuff with theories in the case that make anyone go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

The ultimate test for me (as you have seen Parks) is the Kennedy assassination and these guys generally fail dismally. They should stick to 9/11 truthing, avoid Alex Jones in doing so and unless they have a clue or want to learn more about the Kennedy assassination (than preach moralistic rubbish) then they should stay the hell out. Sheesh, I mean, Jim Fetzer (I actually like him as a person) has written some utter horse crap about JFK. I hope he does better in the 9/11 field. I mean I like Jesse Ventura, but just because he says something it doesnt make my heart beat any faster like it does for some. As I have written theres no simple avenues. Anybody who thinks they have are setting themselves up for big time discreditation.

But cheers for post again Greg.