William Shelley- Betrayal and Perjury

First topic message reminder :

Most of the little we know about Oswald's account of his own actions on November 22 comes to us second-hand. In explaining why he left the Depository shortly after the assassination, he (apparently) described how he "went outside and stood around for 5 or 10 minutes with foreman BILL SHELLEY, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of BILL SHELLEY, he did not believe that there was going to be any more work that day due to the confusion in the building" (WR p. 619).

This statement was not rendered until James Bookhout's solo report, filed after Oswald's death, and based upon notes he'd taken during Oswald's initial interrogation. This detail, notably, was omitted from a joint report that Bookhout had filed with James Hosty the day before Oswald's murder.

But "Shelley denied seeing Oswald after 12 noon or at any time after the shooting" (WR p. 182), and the Warren Commission opted to determine that the incident never happened.

Shelley and his trusty sidekick Billy Lovelady had watched the motorcade from the TSBD front landing. And their testimonies give the impression that they remained there upwards of 3 or 4 minutes after the shots, confusing the arrival of Gloria Caverly with that of motorcycle officer Marrion Baker. Years of film analysis have firmly established that Baker, racing along Houston Street, reached the front steps 22-23 seconds after Z-313; Caverly, who'd been down at the Stemmons sign, was nowhere near Baker then. And so their mis-synchronization has, erroneously, been chalked up to S & L's mis-memories of those confusing first few minutes.

Thanks to some superb film work by researcher Gerda Dunckel (Couch film/Lovelady and Shelley?), we now know that S & L left the front steps several seconds before Baker even arrived there.
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,6724.24.html

S & L each testified that they walked down the Elm St. Extension about 100 yards to the 1st railroad track in the west parking lot. Although they had claimed in their brief FBI interviews 3 weeks earlier (WC Exhibit 1381) that they'd stood out there "about 10 minutes" & "approximately 5 minutes", their testimonies clarified that it was "maybe a minute or two" (WCH VI p. 331) & "just a minute, maybe a minute and a half" (VI p. 339). Setting Z-313 at 12:30:00, and gauging from the Couch film, their estimated arrival at the railroad track can be placed at 0:45 seconds; they stayed there until about 1:45- 2:15

This photo from David von Pein's collection illustrates this west area of the TSBD (scroll down to the 3rd photo in "Dealey Plaza Through the Years", then zoom in). Take note of the door with a ramp next to the carport, as well as the fire door built into the corner of the main warehouse.
http://www.Kennedy-photos.blogspot.com

We probably won't ever know what compelled S & L to re-enter the Depository at this juncture, but it is interesting to consider that, during this 1:45- 2:15 timeframe, Truly & Baker had paused to scan the 4th floor, and Adams & Styles were approaching S & L from the rear of the building.

Robin Unger's collection has a photo extending further along the building's northwest side, and shows that the wooden doors built into the Rear Annex had no ramp.
http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=31&pos=93

Lovelady testified (VI p. 339) that "we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp" and went through (p. 340) "that double door that we in the morning when we get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors between it."

The 1st-floor diagram- which omits the West Annex (!!aha??)- shows that Lovelady is talking, somewhat muddledly, about entering the overhead doors that connected the West Annex with the rear of the main warehouse.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docid=10896
at page 7.

We now see, with the benefit of the new film evidence, that S & L were capable of returning, at a comfortable pace, to the front entrance by 12:33:30. But they weren't asked whether they returned promptly to the front landing area.

Greg, i'm glad you see the point both Stan and myself have raised. That said, you are quite correct that whatever can be gleaned from the remaining witnesses must be more than an "off the record" comment or an anecdote to an author.

Colin Crow wrote:Funny how Frazier's recent interviews (yes he has claimed on more than one occasion) have Oswald leaving the TSBD in the direction of the bus escape route. Seeds planted by others maybe. Certainly his non-cofirmation of himself in the PM images is highly suspicious IMO as he had previously gone out of his way to express dismay that he could not be seen standing there "because he was back in the shadows". Now that he can be seen standing next to PM this appears more disturbing to him than relief from vindication of his location.

Pretty much sums my own feelings up regarding the matter, Colin.

If I was a betting man I would place a wager on Frazier almost pooping in his pants once the photograph was shown to him because:

a) He is visibly in the photograph exactly where he said he was
b) He knows that is Oswald stood right next to him and fully understood the implications should better copies of the Darnell film become available in the future

Deleted.

Great find,Barto.

ROKC find JFK Student

Meanwhile, another ROKC find, Lovelady and Shelley, ROKC Scan of Couch print.
Best image available on them two for sure. It's them....end of debate.

http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Billy-Lovelady-and-Bill-Shelley-in-Malcolm-Couch-ROKC-Scan.jpg

Thanks for saving me from posting the ten page criminal file Bart.

I will finish my request for Shelley's records by getting the misdemeanor file from 1960.

Cheers, Ed

Thanks a bunch m8!

Full size Image: HERE

That Couch print leaves no doubt now does it

Indeed. The shirt is a dead give away.
I applied various ways of sharpening to the inserts.

http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/shelley-collage-1.jpg



http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Lovelady-collage.jpg

I have also revised my main blog post on this mater and all documnetation is present there as well.

http://www.prayer-man.com/billy-nolan-lovelady-and-bill-shelly-did-leave-the-steps-almost-immediately-after-the-shots-were-fired/

In a nutshell...they lied their socks off, yet strengthened the case for Oswald being Prayer only more.

Scully is claiming that you got the wrong Shelley.

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=1ad7fcfa8e39477b1a59c295c70febcd&topic=13709.0

JFK Student wrote:Scully is claiming that you got the wrong Shelley.

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=1ad7fcfa8e39477b1a59c295c70febcd&topic=13709.0

If correct, and it looks like he might be, those who obtained the documents are not at fault. The fault is with those who sent them. The request was obviously made for documents on William SHELLEY - not William SHELEY. 

In requesting files, you simply don't expect that you will get a file of a different person whose name is almost identical. I fully admit I didn't pick up on the name difference. That Shelley allegedly had a record has been bandied about for a long time, so it appears that this other Sheley has been mistaken for "Hoyt" in the past as well. 

Savor the moment, Tom - because that's all it is, and remember that casting stones can be a dangerous occupation for those who live in glass houses.

Meanwhile, we're prepared to keep taking the risks and making mistakes because that is always the path to truth.

"Meanwhile, we're prepared to keep taking the risks and making mistakes because that is always the path to truth."
Here's a mistake I'm prepared to make: The pathway to truth is found through Prayerman. 
Although getting to the bottom of it could never be a mistake.

And when we're shown to be wrong, we don't double down like many other researchers and certain mythical creatures do. No, we embrace it and move on. Because it gets us closer to the truth.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I must acknowledge an anniversary today.

And yet he says nothing about that ridiculous Shirley Temple concoction of PM. Tom is a worm that's why he is good at digging up dirt. Wipe that stupid smirk of your face and get back to shovelling you dirtbag.

Not only very similar name, but close on date of birth, and both apparently keen on terriers. 

Tom is no different to many others who we have upset. It is about "gotcha" moments and revenge. That Tom goes though our stuff looking for "gotcha's" is not a bad thing, even if his motivation is suspect. 

Why? because as Stan said, we don't double-down. We move on. It's not about "us". It is about getting as close to the real history as possible and closing the doors on this and all the other forums who exist solely for self-perpetuation.

greg parker wrote:Not only very similar name, but close on date of birth, and both apparently keen on terriers. 

Tom is no different to many others who we have upset. It is about "gotcha" moments and revenge. That Tom goes though our stuff looking for "gotcha's" is not a bad thing, even if his motivation is suspect. 

Why? because as Stan said, we don't double-down. We move on. It's not about "us". It is about getting as close to the real history as possible and closing the doors on this and all the other forums who exist solely for self-perpetuation.

We do move on and we're not afraid to change our minds or disagree. We're united when it comes to Prayer Man but what Tom doesn't understand about that is our passion to get this case reopened. Prayer Man we can all agree with can make that happen more than any other aspect of this case. His dismissive approach to the subject reveals more about himself than he will care to admit. He is full of self importance. I don't give a shit about making mistakes and being pulled up on it but Tom is the vindictive type. Yes we've upset him but we've also given him every chance to be inclusive. He can't say the same for us with a straight face. Keep digging dirt Tom. Menial labour suits you. Barto is far too busy fighting the good fight that you haven't got the balls for.

Tom Scully on a high horse.....under his arse is a hard hat area, right Frank?

As critical as the roles TSBD personnel played are and when virtually all of them have an established, documented identity, we have two of them who remain in the shadows despite having testified before the WC etc. They are William Shelley and Jack Dougherty. Where are the records on these people and why aren't they front and center going back to the original investigation? The notes not played can be as important as those that are.
But those who are preoccupied with vendettas tend to be tone deaf.

JFK Student wrote:Scully is claiming that you got the wrong Shelley.

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=1ad7fcfa8e39477b1a59c295c70febcd&topic=13709.0

He is probably right, I was aware of the typo, or better yet the lack of that extra 'L', but the reason why we went after it was because we found Decker's report at the archives among other TSBD employees documents.

So we got in touch with the criminal records div. in Dallas and had his late 60's records sent over, which I posted above and which I will remove in due course. I will also amend this at my website.

An honest mistake for which I can only apologise.

barto wrote:

JFK Student wrote:Scully is claiming that you got the wrong Shelley.

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=1ad7fcfa8e39477b1a59c295c70febcd&topic=13709.0

He is probably right, I was aware of the typo, or better yet the lack of that extra 'L', but the reason why we went after it was because we found Decker's report at the archives among other TSBD employees documents.

So we got in touch with the criminal records div. in Dallas and had his late 60's records sent over, which I posted above and which I will remove in due course. I will also amend this at my website.

An honest mistake for which I can only apologise.

There’s no need at all for an apology, Barto. Sifting through so much documentation as you do, for which I for one am very grateful, it would be surprising if you didn’t make the occasional mistake.

On reflection, it would be odd if William Shelley did have a criminal record, since it has been established that he probably was some kind of intelligence operator involved, among other things, in the handling of LHO.

Well, I should have checked the DOB, since that is out by a year. 

I don't buy the intel thingy, the Glaze letters are just a one sided publication. I would want to hear the tapes.
Shelley just did as he was told....just like Truly did.

barto wrote:Well, I should have checked the DOB, since that is out by a year. 

I don't buy the intel thingy, the Glaze letters are just a one sided publication. I would want to hear the tapes.
Shelley just did as he was told....just like Truly did.

Intel or not, Shelley and Truly were full of shit. As for an apology bro, as Goban said no need from my end either. You've been inundated with stuff. Scully is the sort of guy who checks out his turd after he takes a dump and smiles with pride before flushing the toilet bowl.

Scully may have saved a few in Mason jars as proof