The House Where Lee Harvey Oswald Stayed

The House Where Lee Harvey Oswald Stayed.

https://www.gonomad.com/113717-irving-texas-where-lee-harvey-oswald-stayed

Nine months before the assassination, Ruth Paine went to a party hosted by members of her madrigal singing group. The host also invited several members of the local Russian émigré community, including the Oswalds.
A Quaker, Paine had studied Russian in college and had taught it. She was eager to practice her language speaking skills with Marina, a native Russian who had married Oswald in 1961 when he had defected to the Soviet Union. The next year, Oswald became disillusioned with the Soviet Union and returned to the United States with his bride.
“Both women were young and somewhat lonely with small children at home and troubled marriages,” Strange said. “Despite the language barrier, they became friends.”

When Lee Harvey Oswald had difficulty finding a job and left the area to seek work, Paine invited Marina and her children to stay in her two-bedroom, one-bathroom home. With two small children herself, Paine was separated from her husband Michael and didn’t like the way Oswald treated his young wife. But, as Paine noted in one of the museum’s videos, she tried to hold her tongue around Lee Harvey Oswald because she sensed he could be quick to anger.

Paine, however, has never faltered in her belief that Oswald killed Kennedy and acted alone to do it.
All the controversy surrounding the assassination, Paine has said, is the result of people being unable to believe that one very nondescript man could commit such a horrendous act.

In one of the museum videotapes, Paine describes Oswald as “a weird young man and not somebody the KGB would be hiring to do some kind of job… There was no way for me to know that this was a dangerous man. He didn’t seem terribly competent in a lot of ways.”
But, Paine concludes, “A lot of the world doesn’t want to believe that.”
And probably never will.

Sure, Ruth, sure. Just some nobody who just so happened to defect to Russia, came waltzing right back in with a Russian wife [and during the hottest part of the Cold War] a year later and knew exactly what was going down by blurting out I'm nothing but a patsy. And of course, Ruth, you were glued to the hip with these people until 11/22. I mean in today's world and even back then, what are the odds of that happening?

What are the mathematical odds for someone like this to have all that happened to him and he's just a nobody like Tim McVeigh?

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret.html

EDIT - Simpich has updated his how it happened page:

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Chapter6.html

I still do believe that the man in the doorway is Oswald in the footage All that Simpich says above could have happened and then LHO is captured in the doorway out front at 12.30 pm.

I still do believe that the man in the doorway is Oswald in the footage All that Simpich says above could have happened and then LHO is captured in the doorway out front at 12.30 pm.

Are you referring to Prayer Man?

This is why the PM thing is a hard sell in my opinion. People who have a basic understanding of the case and it's background still conflate either knowingly or not the idea that the three images, Altgens #6, Weigman, and Darnell are all depicting the same person. I've sat in on Pitch's of this as a story to production companies and I keep getting this thrown back at me. I also get a lot of what's the Prayerman thing about - what's it mean. And a lot of the people I've spoken with already know about Doorman and think or assume that's what I'm banging on about - a story that's over 50 years old. Sigh!

In my humble opinion the tags or Pet names of these various images should be dropped. No Doorman, no PM or Prayerman. I know others may disagree but that's how I'm feeling about this.

from vinny's link wrote:Built-in 1956, the simple ranch home has domestic touches that would have been there when the Oswalds lived with Paine. Glass baby bottles, dishes drying in a rack on the kitchen counter, a black rotary dial telephone, “grease” container on the General Electric stove that would have held bacon droppings saved for cooking, family photos, old-time stereo cabinet with Everly Brothers vinyl album out for playing, children’s toys scattered on the living room floor, small screen TV playing 1960s sitcoms, and other aspects of 1960s American life.

https://www.ranker.com/list/kgb-built-fake-american-town-for-training/mariel-loveland wrote:The Soviets' fake American town was pretty spot on – ranch houses sprawled out in tract housing developments that perfectly captured the expanding suburbs of the American middle class. Still, everything was just a little bit off – it looked new, not lived in. Blocks, bookended with English street signs, were clean and pristine like a movie set.

This fake Amerian village was in Vinnytsia - which is in the Ukraine. 

In October, 1961 - after not even 6 months of marriage, Marina apparently needed a vacation on her own and visited her aunt in Kharkov - also in the Ukraine. 

Did Kharkov - a long way from Vinnytsia - also have a fake American village? Or was the Aunt in Kharkov just a cover story for actually going to Vinnytsia for immersion training in American life prior to going to the US with Lee?  

The Paines moved to Irving around the same time that Lee was discharged from the Marines.

No, I don't think the Paines were Soviet agents. But I think Marina may have been and that the US knew it all along and made sure she would end up in a home which mimicked the fake American homes set up in the Ukraine.

Not buying for a millesecond that the Paines CHOSE to live in that house because of religious beliefs about living simple lives.  They were not living that lifestyle PRIOR to Irving.  By some accounts, the party lifestyle was more like it back east.... particularly at their vacation home on Nashaun Island.

Very intriguing Greg.
A fairy tale lifestyle in Irving.

Did Mike Paine leave the idyllic setting as he would compromise the operation by allowing himself to be at a residence with a Russian spy.
By their separation the Paine's could continue the operation without bringing any undue criticism of the Bell Helicopter "Engineer."

LIEBELER - Would you tell us briefly your educational background, where you attended schools?
Mr. PAINE - I went to school, high school in New York, went to 2 years of Harvard and a year of Swarthmore, I have not finished college.
And
LIEBELER - By whom are you presently employed?
Mr. PAINE - Bell Helicopter, Fort Worth.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you have a security clearance in connection with your work at Bell Helicopter?
Mr. PAINE - I suppose it is. I don't happen to know what the classification is.

All together it's quite a storyline.

I see your point Mick.
Moniker of Prayer Man is not ours, but Murphys.
We should agree on a label.

I see Prayerman continues as to differentiate btwn Doorwayman/Lovelady nonsense and Oswald.
Preferably everyone says "Lee's Alibi" with image of Lee and Lovelady both on the steps....or cleanest image of Lee in Darnell.
This information helps the psychological aspects of the pushback effect.
IMAGE AND ALIBI.

The point should be to make you feel stupid you never knew Lee's alibi therefore you should be cautious believing the authorities claims.

Mick_Purdy wrote:This is why the PM thing is a hard sell in my opinion. People who have a basic understanding of the case and it's background still conflate either knowingly or not the idea that the three images, Altgens #6, Weigman, and Darnell are all depicting the same person. I've sat in on Pitch's of this as a story to production companies and I keep getting this thrown back at me. I also get a lot of what's the Prayerman thing about - what's it mean. And a lot of the people I've spoken with already know about Doorman and think or assume that's what I'm banging on about - a story that's over 50 years old. Sigh!

In my humble opinion the tags or Pet names of these various images should be dropped. No Doorman, no PM or Prayerman. I know others may disagree but that's how I'm feeling about this.

 There are several pet names in the case.

 Prayer Man

Doorway Man

Umbrella Man

Badgeman

Black Dog Man

Rambler Man

I see your point Mick.
Moniker of Prayer Man is not ours, but Murphys.
We should agree on a label.


We should. Weigman and Darnell frames depict an innocent man's alibi. IMO.


Lee Oswald's alibi is confirmed in both of these frames.

Well, I'll toss one out.
How about "Odd Man Out"?
Tried for something that might be perceived as anti-all the other "Man's".
Implies that this is the one officially unidentified man.
Carries the correct gender, although nothing will close the mouths of those ignorant enough to state it's a woman, which I don't believe they actually believe, so impossible to thwart.
Oswald was the odd man amongst the regular workers and here we literally see the odd man outside.
Does not carry a presupposition about his actual posture or pose as does PM.
The acronym is a palindrome, for whatever that's worth. 
Not married to it by any means. Consider it the first in a list to be evaluated for consensus. Also modify at will. Odd Man Outside, for example. Or not.

Edit: Or just "Odd Man". I dunno.

Jake_Sykes wrote:Well, I'll toss one out.
How about "Odd Man Out"?
Tried for something that might be perceived as anti-all the other "Man's".
Implies that this is the one officially unidentified man.
Carries the correct gender, although nothing will close the mouths of those ignorant enough to state it's a woman, which I don't believe they actually believe, so impossible to thwart.
Oswald was the odd man amongst the regular workers and here we literally see the odd man outside.
Does not carry a presupposition about his actual posture or pose as does PM.
The acronym is a palindrome, for whatever that's worth. 
Not married to it by any means. Consider it the first in a list to be evaluated for consensus. Also modify at will. Odd Man Outside, for example. Or not.

Edit: Or just "Odd Man". I dunno.

That's not a bad idea.

We could even go for a name used by intel. "Unsub"
Short for Unidentified Subject.

Like them all!!

Alibi Man, Alibi Guy...Mr. Alibi.... Lee's Alibi.
Dallas Alibi Man ... DAM!
Maybe?

But,,, Odd Man Out,
OMO ... too close to homo, no offense to them, just its not the way we want to push this envelope.
Odd Man isn't helping the case either. Hehe

Unsub. .... Mr Unsub. Unsub'Man....
It doesn't have the catch all we want.
Too cryptic perhaps.. idk.

I guess we could do ourselves a favor and not reinvent the wheel.
What was PM before PM???

Figure J.

First labeled by Richard Bernabei.
It sounds more scientific, as a label goes.
Historic, and it has that 'catch all' to it.

No gender, just nomenclature, and annotations, equals XYZ employee.





yeah or nay

My other label is a pointed one:

"Checkmate Man."

LOL, ok Ed.

LHO Man (Lunch Hour Over)

This one hits a few notes:

Vestibule Man (differentiates with Doorway Man and de-programs the mythical 2nd floor 'vestibule' implying it's Oswald in or very near to, the actual vestibule)

jfk case wrote:EDIT - Simpich has updated his how it happened page:

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Chapter6.html

From the above link, with comments added but not my citations which have been provided here numerous times in other threads.

Bill Simpich wrote:On November 22, 1963, President John F. Kennedy was shot at 12:30 pm. The following is a brand-new account on how Oswald was set up as the lone suspect. Although I am not convinced Oswald was innocent of involvement, I am convinced he was framed as the lone suspect.


Oswald may have been involved in the assassination in some way. To what extent, we still don’t know. It’s hard to think of a less secure sniper’s nest than the sixth floor. Six men had been up there all morning on November 22 laying a wood floor, and they were nowhere near done. It was an optional sniper post at best. The entire sixth floor was open storage space. Anyone could walk in at any minute.

Elvis may have been involved in some way. But where is the evidence? The evidence of Lee's involvement was all part of the frame. You don't know to "what extent" Lee was involved --- because because because.. he wasn't.

This feeling that Lee had to be involved is just the residual of 50 years of useless books and theories.

Bill seems to also suggest that there was pre-planning in framing him as a lone nut.

I guess someone forgot to give that memo to DA Wade who told the press that the killer appeared to be a cold calculating pro. They also forgot to tell the cops who initially were happy to pursue Craig's lead on Lee being picked up by an accomplice -- until Washington snatched conspiracy from the table.

In fact, the men had planned to eat lunch on the sixth floor that day, and Bonnie Ray Williams left the floor at 12:15 only when he realized no one was coming up to join him. 

That claim was made only by Williams... to justify placing himself there for the benefit of the official lies.  In all previous statements by him and by the other two, he never went to the 6th floor at all. 

The chicken leftovers were found on the 5th floor and moved to the 6th, according to Alyea. This would be to make it look like what Wade later described -  a cool calculating pro casually having lunch waiting for his kill shot. But once that scenario was off the table, Williams had to be placed up there to account for the scraps.  

I don’t have a well-developed two Oswalds theory, but I do have a two lunchroom theory. I never understood why there weren’t more witnesses coming forward and saying that they saw Oswald in the lunchroom. Then I found out that Oswald regularly ate his lunch in the first floor lunchroom called the “domino room” where the African American employees would gather, instead of in the all-white, main lunchroom on the second floor that had all of the soft drink machines.

You're not alone on the two Oswald theory. The well-developed theory on that is like Oswald on the 6th. Nowhere to be found.

Not sure how you get a theory about the existance of two lunchrooms.

But there is zero to theorize about. 

The book publishers were subletting the entire 2nd,3rd and 4th floors. This included the lunchroom on the 2nd floor.

The lunchrooms were not divided on color grounds as you seem to suggest. This was stated by Roy Lewis in a recorded interview with Ed Ledoux. It was divided  along class lines and by "ownership" through subleasing. Simply put, the 2nd floor lunchroom was reserved for the employees of the book companies. Not even TSBD managers used it. They ate out or in their own offices. Yes, the Africn-American employees of the TSBD ate in the Domino room - but so did all the other laborers employed by Truly, regardless of skin color. Except Buell who apparently preferred his own company and ate alone in the basement. I won't speculate about any other reasons he may have had for not eating with the mainly African-American workers. But he had no option about choosing to eat in the second floor lunchroom because he simply was not allowed to. The common laborers were restricted to going in there to buy drinks and snacks from the vending machines. And most of them of all color and stripe, did that daily, including Lee. 

Maybe we should rehabilitate what we called during the Vietnam War “the domino theory” - many things fall in line when you look at the story this way.

Bill goes to some trouble in enumerating the times Oswald chose to sit or stand with African-Americans - and that his choosing to eat in the Domino Room was a continuation of the same behavior. This is predicated on Bill's false belief that Oswald could have chosen to eat in the 2nd floor lunchrom if he wanted to.

But Oswald's only choices for eating lunch while working at 411 Elm were,

1. Go out. There was evidence given that he did this on rare occasions. I suggest this was not so much to eat, but to pick up mail.

2. Eat with Frazier in the basement. No evidence that this ever happened. And in fact, Buell has made contradictory statments over the years as to whether this was his own usual practice or not.

3. Eat in the Domino Room. 

Any other suggestions are just variations on a riff formulated by the DPD and FBI Bandstand to relocate the real Lee meets cop + Truly encounter at the front door. 

I’m also relying on several witnesses. Carolyn Arnold stated on November 26 that she saw Oswald on the first floor a few minutes before 12:15 pm.

Yes! Her later changed story was poisoned by the 2nd floor wishing well.

On the sixth floor itself, Bonnie Ray Williams told the Warren Commission that he was up there until about 12:15, 

Which is not what he and the others originally said. The original story was rock solid. They all went straight to the 5th floor.  In any event, if he was there until 12:15 and then goes down to the 5th floor, then he arrives well before the other two. We are now entering the realm of a Red Dwarf script.

Arnold Rowland said that he saw an African American man and a white man with a rifle in two separate windows on the sixth floor at 12:15 pm.

Not quite. Rowland said he saw an ELDERLY African-American up there - who we later find out matched Eddy Piper.

And Piper's own story about his lunch-time includes that he and Oswald discussed watching the motorcade during lunch with Oswald replying, indicating he was going up OR out. His story also includes an unbelievable account of watching the motorcade through a window on the 1st floor. An impossible viewing position. Moreover, his initial statement states he ran from that spot to the wrapping table in order to check the time in between shots. The clock, in his initial statement said 12:25. The funny thing aout this is that (a) who has the presence of mind to want to check the time during a presidential assassination? and ( b ) 12:25 was when the motorcade was due. But we all know now it was 5 minutes late. Piper was timestamping his alibi based on what he thought was the time the parade went past.

Then, finally, we have the news story of a janitor "escorting" Oswald up to the 6th floor, witnessing the assassination and running for his life and being kept in protective custody by DPD Special Services. 

This story was cobbled together by the Howard brothers - possibly just to amuse themselves. BUt it does have elements of truth.

It is probable that Piper did have a pre-lunchtime chat with Oswald. It is possible he himself then went to the 6th floor after that to watch the parade.  He may or may not have seen something while up there.

Piper's story then gets mixed in with the porter from the Dal-Tex who was indeed fritgtened by the presence of strangers in the building and did run out out or yell out to alert police.

The vast majority of the available evidence indicates that Oswald was on the first or second floor during the entire time that the Kennedy motorcade passed by the Depository building. It wasn’t until 2002 that author Barry Ernest found Adams and was able to review the facts with her shortly before her death. The detailed account of Victoria Adams and Ernest’s thirty-five year quest to find her is a powerful story. I think it also has the advantage of being true.

The vast majority of the evidence icludes a whole swag of changed stories to fit the false narrative being deleoped by the cops and the FBI. The ENTIRETY of the RELIABLE evidence - that is, the earliest evidence, points to the overwhelming majority of the time, Oswald was on the first floor - with one brief pre-assassination trip to the 2nd floor for a coke and a later brief foray to the front steps.

Barry Ernest is a supporter of the official bullshit regarding the 2nd floor lunch encounter, which undermines any smidgeon of credibility he might have had. You mistake the length of his quest as proof of validity of said quest. Some people spend entire lives dedicated to things like religion. Dedication is not proof of validity.

In any event, Styles refuted her friend when contacted by Sean Murphy.

After hearing the shots, the stuck elevators were why building superintendent Roy Truly and police officer Marrion Baker had to run up the stairs ninety seconds after the shooting. Adams testified that was why she and Styles had to walk down the stairs, which they completed before Truly and Baker entered the stairwell.

Truly and Baker never ran up anywhere. The stuck elevators was just a story later added to give weight to the story of using the stairs - with stairs needed only to allow the 2nd floor bulshit encounter. Why are people so smitten with the official version of events when they know damn well Oswald was framed and the earliest evidence contradicts such shiboleths as the heroic Truly leading the one man cavalry up the stairs and encountering Oswald on the 2nd floor? 

And AFAIK, Styles and Adams never even tried the elevators.  

Mr. BELIN - Let me ask you this. As you got to the stairs on the fourth floor, did you notice whether or not the elevator was running?
Miss ADAMS - The elevator was not moving.
Mr. BELIN - How do you know it was not moving on some other floor?
Miss ADAMS - Because the cables move when the elevator is moved, and this is evidenced because of a wooden grate.
Mr. BELIN - By that you mean a wooden door with slats in it that you have to lift up to get on the elevator?
Miss ADAMS - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - Did you look to see if the elevator was moving?
Miss ADAMS - It was not; no, sir.
Mr. BELIN - It was not moving?
Miss ADAMS - No.
Mr. BELIN - Did you happen to see where the elevator might have been located?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - As you got to the third floor, did you take a look at the elevator again at all, or not, if you remember?
Miss ADAMS - I can't recall.

So no - there was NO testiony that they never took the elevator down because the power had been cut.

She did testify the elevator power was cut when she reentered the building.

Miss ADAMS - There was an officer on the stairs itself, and he was prohibiting people from entering the building, that is correct. But I told him I worked there.
Mr. BELIN - Did he let you come back in?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do ?
Miss ADAMS - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.

I think that when Oswald heard that the President was shot, he realized that he had been set up. After Roy Truly waved off Officer Baker with assurances that Oswald was a Depository employee, Oswald realized what had happened and that he had to run. He first had to get his pistol at home. He simply wasn’t prepared for the tragedy that had just happened.

FFS Bill. This is just utter crap, with all due respect.

Firstly, Truly waved Oswald off to Kaminsky - not Baker and there is official documentation supporting this.

Secondly, Oswald never "ran" anywhere. He was let go by Truly and Kaminsky and then reported mssing by Truly. 

Any conjecture about him leaving and why should have some evidenciary support. There is none for your theory except the bullshit from the DPD, FBI and WC.

I say he left to meet up with Ruth and Marina per Ruth's testimony that Marina was given $10.00 by Lee to buy herself new shoes. Ruth stated that they had planned to go shopping for them that afternoon - plans put off by the arrival of police. 

If Lee looked in Brewer's shop, he was looking to see if Marina and Ruth were in there and it happened earlier that what was claimed by Brewer. When he saw the action up at the theatre, he went up. While there, he pointed Oswald out as someone he had seen looking in his shop window. Dallas cops did not need much to pounce. THey went there in the first instance because of a false report of a man entering with a rifle. There was no call from Postal. 

Fourteen minutes after the shooting, a 12:44 pm radio call in Dallas gave a description of a man with a rifle on the 6th floor of the Texas Book Depository. This radio call was based on the report of an “unknown white man’s” report to police inspector Herbert Sawyer. “Slender white male about 30, five feet ten, 165”.[ 2 ] The dispatcher Murray Jackson relied on this description, providing it again at 12:47, 12:49, 12:55 and 1:08, offering it as “all we have” prior to the shooting of Tippit at 1:09 pm.

Ann Egerter and the FBI had used the phony Webster-like description of Oswald as “5 feet ten, 165” repeatedly to describe Oswald since his time in the USSR in 1960. This was no molehunt. This was a manhunt.

The specificity of the “5 feet ten, 165” tip cannot be squared with the impossibility of providing a height-and-weight ID of a sixth floor sniper located at a window and only visible from near-waist height. You’re only seeing a portion of his body. There is no way to tell how tall he is, much less how much he weighs. What you would notice would be his clothes – but the witness noticed nothing on that subject.

Also, there’s nothing “slender” about any man who is 5 foot 10 and 165. Such a man comes up with a body mass index (or “BMI”) of 23.7 – right in the middle of the American population. “Average” is BMI of between 23 and 26.

Oswald, however, was generally referred to as “slender” in his CIA and FBI records. His weight was generally between 126 and 140.

J. Edgar Hoover exhausted all leads before concluding that the 5'10"/165 description came from an “unidentified citizen” that approached Sawyer. No one ever convinced the FBI that the alleged witness Howard Brennan provided this tip. For whatever reason, Hoover was not willing to go along with the Warren Commission’s finding that credited Brennan as the tipster. The HSCA took the same approach as Hoover and did not rely on Brennan in any way. The powerful evidence that Brennan was not the “unidentified citizen” can be reviewed in the attached endnote.[ 3 ]

I agree that the description of height/weight is the same as found in Fain's report and which was given him by Marguerite. The age discrepency however, appears to undermine the assumption of it coming from that FBI report.  There is no reason to see in the record that Oswald was 19 at the time of that description and to somehow arrive at an age of 30 four years later. 

Yet the description is similar to Baker's 3rd or 4th floor man and similar to Brennan's 6th floor shooter and we have a report of a man with a rifle entering the TT. 

Whilst I don't entirely riule out the description coming from Fain's report, could it be as simple as it being an accurate description of the real killer or person running a diversion?

I admit, I find these pieces by Bill depressing. He is not a stupid man, yet jumps down all the usual tired old rabbit holes and tries hard to retain completely false elements of the Oswald timeline and actions by favoring accounts that are clearly changed stories from what the witnesses originally said. 

Most egregious of all, there is no excuse for hanging onto Oswald being a witting part of the plot. None. 

Hoping to meet up on a shopping trip that his wife had planned for that afternoon is just too incredible to accept. Apprently.

Succinct and to the point.

A devastating critique , revealing, with grim unflinching honesty, the convoluted maze of ever decreasing circles that have somehow hypnotised the best and the brightest, until they and us become so dizzy and so disoriented from chasing rabbit after rabbit through the maze, then down their holes .. ultimately we all end up wandering around the warren, tripping over the piles of dried rabbit droppings ,  fumbling towards one of the dim shafts of daylight, little needlepoints of light, threading through the darkness. A few lucky ones somehow managed to get the fuck out of the stinking catacombs, and the warrens dug beneath the Caverns of Troof..but for those who remain... languishing in the basement of the TSBD.. nibbling at the stale crumbs of BWFs cheese sandwich..

The only light in the Warren of dead ends and shit filled tunnels coming from the very rabbit holes they leapt down... chasing after money orders, Chauncey Holt's clockwork dentures, any number of mad March hares, Das Dormaus disguised as Otto Skornezy, Tweedle Dee and Tweedle HARVEY Dee, other films, enough fake moms to open a branch of Stepford Wives in the Langley Arcade, or in some cases ,certain individuals followed a rabbit down here ..lusting after its fluffy white tail..." Maw that there critter looks like cousin Stevie's favourite chupacabra"

Looking for a way out, the same way they fell in... having learnt fuck all in the meantime...wasting everyone's time, including their own, chasing shadows through the Warren of tunnels, lit only by the light bleeding in from the rabbit holes they fell through in the first place..

It's pretty depressing to read someone of Simpich's stature coming out with tired old fairy tales...

Oswald on the run? With 10 fucking dollars in his pocket? No luggage, no documents, passport or cash...unless you believe the undead zombie corpse of Alexander Rorke was tooling up the engine of a Cessna out at Red Bird, ready to spirit the fugitive LEE away to rendevous with Minnie Mouse Juddufki in their love nest deep in steamy jungles of Mexico...or Honduras..or Belize..

Or maybe Oswald planned to pick up the suitcase and cash hed stashed away in the apartment Sparky Rubinstein rented for him ..on his way to Trinity River, to be whisked off with Robert Vinson to Roswell... maybe Juddufki was waiting for him there..

If Juddufki claimed to be the little green man who crashed there back in July 47 i'd be inclined to believe her...

The lone nut frame , clumsy and unconvincing as it was/is, with more loose ends than Ralph Cinque's latest blockbuster, a buddy cop movie, soft reboot of Turner and Hooch starring the Loveladyified corpse of the freshly exhumed remains of the original Lassie..." Playing Fetch with My Texas Hound", was obviously a hasty, sometimes shambolic improvisation. Oswald the cold calculating commie, ardent disciple of Fidel became Oswald the misanthropic sociopathic loner...

Active conspirator or not McGeorge Bundy spoke for the Washington establishment when he declared " no Conspiracy!" 

IMHO the continuity of government types exploited the assassination for their own geopolitical purposes . Their vision for the post JFK era was quite literally a whole continent away from the actual conspirators. My guess is they were manipulated , used, deceived into thinking the higher ups actively supported their aims. 

Willingly ( out of simple pragmatism,wider ideological/ geopolitical considerations, political reasons or out of a personal loathing for JFK, either the man or what he stood for or a combination of both) or unwillingly ( bureaucratic CYA, blackmail, Oswald's pre assassination relationship, any number of reasons) a considerable percentage of the Washington political elites went along with the cover up; in some cases actively helping to develop the fradulent narrative that later became enshrined in the national consciousness. Some individuals mistakenly presume active participants of the cover up were, ipso facto, actual conspirators...thus we get the caricatures of some sort of vast all encompassing conspiratorial super structure..

The uncle Tom Cobley and all school of conspiracy..

At this stage, nearly 60 years down the line, to read someone of Simpich's obvious intellect seriously entertaining the notion that Oswald was somehow involved in the assassination is really fucking demoralising. As Greg says it's a lasting testament to the insidious debilitating effect over half a centuries worth of the literature of troof...a genre halfway between the comic and the downright tragic..

Oswald may have been involved in the assassination in some way. To what extent, we still don’t know. 


I appreciate the criticism - I wish I got more of it, pro and con.  That's how we move forward studying the JFK case and cases like it.  I do want to clarify what I meant by "Oswald may have been involved in the assassination in some way."   I don't think LHO was wittingly part of the plan to kill JFK.

Here's what I'm trying to figure out - Why was Oswald lurking around the first floor in the last half hour before the motorcade went by?   I do believe that he might be Prayer Man out on the steps in the final moment up to when the motorcade went by.  

There probably wasn't anyone more fascinated by politics than LHO.   Why was he hanging out inside the book depository?

Was LHO tailing Joe Molina?   Molina's office was on the lower floors.   Molina was on the steps at the time the motorcade went by, with Prayer Man behind him.   The Dallas police went to Molina's home that night and tossed it - was it simply because he was on their "Communist radar", even though Molina was pretty much a conservative guy more interested in Hispanic rights than any other political cause.   

Was it because Molina had been tailed by Bill Lowery (and his handler FBI agent Jim Hosty) for many years?   The problem is that Molina had been watched by the feds - but the local cops harassed Molina that night - and their common claim was that the FBI didn't share their intelligence with them about Oswald - they certainly never admitted any sharing of intel about Molina.

Or was LHO waiting for a phone call of some kind?   He knew where the available phones were in the lower part of the building - he  appears to have directed at least one reporter to it.

It just doesn't make sense to me that he was inside the building almost the whole time prior to the motorcade coming by while everyone else was focusing on getting a good view.   I think he was doing some spy work or wannabe spy activity, which I think he was put up to doing so that he wouldn't have a good alibi.    I would appreciate anyone's thoughts.

Bill

I think you're spot on Bill. I can recall speculating myself that he may have been given a minor, solo assignment by a handler for exactly the reason of making his whereabouts "flexible" to manufacture later on. My thought was that he was ostensibly told to monitor the back of house (stairs and elevator too) for anyone attempting to slip through the building and gain position on the motorcade out on Elm before it arrived, which he proceeded to do from the Domino Room vantage point. Once he figured it was close to being too late for any such a maneuver he 'went rogue' and wandered out front figuring he could still 'guard the rear' from the vestibule. Any 'threat' passed with the arrival of the motorcade so from there he went on out on the landing to see what he could see. He would never detail all that to the DPD since he would feel he was still 'under cover'. He would simply say he bought a drink, had lunch, and went out to watch the p. parade.

My opinion is he was not involved in any way at all. He had nothing to do with it.

Why is it that nobody seems as interested in where Jack Dougherty was all lunch hour. Why does Jack get a free pass? Retard? I don't think so -We only have Truly's word on that. Jack had the keys to the TSBD - he had responsibility - I'm not buying the retard BS

FFS why do we get so tied up in knots about Lee Oswald and his where about's in the lunch hour. 

He told his accusers where he was -  that's in the record - eyewitness statement's are in the record and place Oswald on the first floor from 11.50am until as late as 12.25pm - that's there on record.  If that's not enough there is Hosty's notes which pretty much agree with the Bookhout /Hosty interrogation report - that report agrees with all the eyewitness statement's and 100% corroborates with what Oswald was telling them....

Jack Dougherty is unaccounted for except for his word - Buell Frazier is unaccounted for - at least until he moved out onto the front steps - we only have his word - there are others too...

There were witnesses who either saw Oswald on the first or their testimony proves that Oswald was telling the truth...he has an alibi - some others do not -let's start being honest here and start looking at some of the other players involved instead of just regurgitating the same old nonsense

Mick_Purdy wrote:Why is it that nobody seems as interested in where Jack Dougherty was all lunch hour. Why does Jack get a free pass? Retard? I don't think so -We only have Truly's word on that. Jack had the keys to the TSBD - he had responsibility - I'm not buying the retard BS

FFS why do we get so tied up in knots about Lee Oswald and his where about's in the lunch hour. 

He told his accusers where he was -  that's in the record - eyewitness statement's are in the record and place Oswald on the first floor from 11.50am until as late as 12.25pm - that's there on record.  If that's not enough there is Hosty's notes which pretty much agree with the Bookhout /Hosty interrogation report - that report agrees with all the eyewitness statement's and 100% corroborates with what Oswald was telling them....

Jack Dougherty is unaccounted for except for his word - Buell Frazier is unaccounted for - at least until he moved out onto the front steps - we only have his word - there are others too...

There were witnesses who either saw Oswald on the first or their testimony proves that Oswald was telling the truth...he has an alibi - some others do not -let's start being honest here and start looking at some of the other players involved instead of just regurgitating the same old nonsense

Mick, I agree that Jack Dougherty is the elephant in the room. Why is there next to nothing in the public record about this person who was one of the persons closest to the alleged shooting and various other activities by various other people on the upper floors of the TSBD? I mean he should be a veritable fountainhead of information and if not, then there should be clear documentation as to why he isn't, as in mentally challenged or whatever. I don't buy it either. Even if mentally challenged, he would have a lot to say.

I think his information has been suppressed because he was a major problem if he ever started talking. It just doesn't make any sense otherwise. In the narrative of what happened that day, his story should be front and center with his every utterance documented, analyzed, and in support of the official narrative. It's very obvious why it isn't.

Molina had the keys JD would wait for him to open up

barto wrote:Molina had the keys JD would wait for him to open up

Didn't know that. Thanks.

Jake_Sykes wrote:I think you're spot on Bill. I can recall speculating myself that he may have been given a minor, solo assignment by a handler for exactly the reason of making his whereabouts "flexible" to manufacture later on. My thought was that he was ostensibly told to monitor the back of house (stairs and elevator too) for anyone attempting to slip through the building and gain position on the motorcade out on Elm before it arrived, which he proceeded to do from the Domino Room vantage point. Once he figured it was close to being too late for any such a maneuver he 'went rogue' and wandered out front figuring he could still 'guard the rear' from the vestibule. Any 'threat' passed with the arrival of the motorcade so from there he went on out on the landing to see what he could see. He would never detail all that to the DPD since he would feel he was still 'under cover'. He would simply say he bought a drink, had lunch, and went out to watch the p. parade.

Bad enough Truly calling the guy a retard. Now you're likening him to the Elephant Man. 

I saw the movie. The Eephant Man was actually pretty damn smart.

barto wrote:Molina had the keys JD would wait for him to open up

I'll look that up - I've seen  a statement somewhere which said JD had the keys and opened up in the mornings- happy to be proven wrong.

Mick_Purdy wrote:

barto wrote:Molina had the keys JD would wait for him to open up

I'll look that up - I've seen  a statement somewhere which said JD had the keys and opened up in the mornings- happy to be proven wrong.

If you've got that evidence Bart I'd sure like to have a look at it mate.....so Molina had keys to the TSBD? Had the responsibility of opening up?