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Kharkiv is so lovely In October

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greg_parker
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Ed.Ledoux
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Wed 1 Sep - 10:21
One of the Galinas that Marina befriended

Galina Khontuleva ("GALKA")
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Thu 2 Sep - 3:28
"She said she had received a standard letter from Russian authorities in answer to her initial request for an exit permit..."

How would Marina know what a standard reply for an exit visa would be? On the face of things, she shouldn't have a clue. Is she trying to convey the impression of "nothing to see here"? Everything was just "standard"?

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Ed.Ledoux
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Thu 2 Sep - 6:24
Unless she is hanging out with others whom also got exit visas quickly ... wink wink

Then she gets the standard treatment for CCCP spys or false defectors.
Speedy delivery
Ed.Ledoux
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Fri 3 Sep - 11:28
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The spy school video should be watched again,
https://youtu.be/ASFZcSJeIDQ
No children sticks out.
Was that why Marina got exit visa, 🤔
New experimental cell.... soccer mom sleeper agent
Seriously the video does have clues, ... and ample opportunity for training a pregnant woman.
Listening-bugging a room, and photos.
Minox has to be someone's, if you get my drift.
Are we to believe she never operated a camera, Russia was that bad, girls never take picture???
She worked in a drug store, isn't that where you get your prints developed.
Okay seriously though.
There is the isolation of Winniza.
Nothing is near it, so staying at Aunt Polina's is the only logical remedy. As Greg originally pointed out spy school is in Ukraine,  Marina is in Ukraine.

Not necessary to place her in the area of Vinnytsia.
Connection is there.

Plus Marina wastes chance to go to posh resort,, meet people and get their details and write it down like a spy .. err where am I going here. Why no rest home resort? Pregnant or not. Aunt had to send her travel fare to and from Ukraine....
KICKER... why didn't Marina join Aunt Polina and Uncle Yuri on their trip? Spend a week together  ... nope, they leave her a key under the mat.

Anyway this is a great film gives us some clues.
Thanks to the Sandia Lab and Atomic Energy Commission, CIA and Langley for making a faked film of a faked city in a fake town.

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Funny they show a TRUE POLICE magazine, a kinda spy rag. Also only twelve year olds and spys would read this crap, like TRUE DETECTIVE,  or another sister magazine, TRUE ADVENTURES where the ad for Sea Port Traders Pistol was from...fwtw.

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Here for contrast is a suspected western spy in the Ukraine/Crimean area in the same time frame.

"The KGB Stalked A Snap-Happy French Tourist For Eight Years. But Was He A Spy?" https://www.rferl.org/amp/the-kgb-stalked-a-french-tourist-for-eight-years-but-was-he-a-spy-/29508826.html
Ed.Ledoux
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Fri 3 Sep - 12:23
30,000 Inhabitants
"For Winniza, Lindgren says, is Russia’s top school for Soviet spies scheduled for assignment in the United States."

So where were the lesser schools?


Of interest is PROLOG.
Anti-soviet Ukrainian
Smuggling if literature, printing, espionage


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Vinny
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Tue 7 Sep - 9:44
@Mick_Purdy wrote:
@Vinny wrote:Kharkiv is so lovely In October - Page 3 Scree151
Fantastic article Vinny. Is there a copy of this in its entirety anywhere?

Looks like this could be it.

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/81579909/

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Tue 7 Sep - 23:32
@Vinny wrote:
@Mick_Purdy wrote:
@Vinny wrote:Kharkiv is so lovely In October - Page 3 Scree151
Fantastic article Vinny. Is there a copy of this in its entirety anywhere?

Looks like this could be it.

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/81579909/
Thanks Vinny, excellent work.

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Wed 8 Sep - 11:07
Welcome Mick.

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Sun 12 Sep - 8:43
Marina Oswald Porter: To Forget Is Not To Forgive

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1977/10/13/marina-oswald-porter-to-forget-is-not-to-forgive/f79abe90-393b-4f64-98b5-041804c4b36b/

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Sun 12 Sep - 17:40
For money the story was Lee bad man.
For history the story is Lee didn't do it
Thanks Vinny.


An interesting find by Joseph Backes has me thinking.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/247743825610152/permalink/1443111806073342/

PETER PAUL GREGORY was father to PAUL RODERICK GREGORY


LIEBELER. Did he offer as a suggestion as to why they had permitted
Marina to come back anything to the effect that it was a time of reduced tension
between the Soviet Union and the United States?
Mr. GREGORY. Not that I can remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that he said about the subject
of Marina being able to come back with him?
Mr. GREOOBY. No. Marina spoke of it as being a very horrible time with all
her friends putting pressure on her, and it was very unpleasant for her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate that she had had any nervous difficulties as
a result of this?
Mr. GREOORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn at any time from either of the Oswalds that
Marina had gone to the hospital as the result of the pressure that was put
upon her by her friends?
Mr. GREOORY. No; I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention to you, or either of them mention to you, that Marina went to Kharkov on a vacation at one time?
Mr. GREQORY. No; I asked them about travel that each of them had done in the Soviet Union, and the only other place that they mentioned as having been, or one of them as having been, was Leningrad, which was the city where Marina received her training as a pharmacist. And I don’t know if Lee had gone to Leningrad or not. Of course, Lee would always tell me about his trips to Moscow and his trips to the mausoleum, and going to all the museums and factories.
He seemed to speak as if he were a regular tourist then, because they assigned him an interpreter, and evidently he paid the regular tourist fee.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you when this was?
Mr. GREGORY. No; he may have told me. I am sure it was in winter, because
he said-no, I am not sure. Put this down as something I don’t remember well,
but I think that he said that it was cold and that the Russians let him get up
to the first line because he was an American. It could have been someone else,
because I have had several friends that I can’t remember if that was Lee or
not.

Well that's interesting to ask him about Marina's mental health, a trip to Kharkov and her hospitalization


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Peter Gregory was an informant for FBI.
GREGORY's real name Mikhail Ivanovich Samarin...

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Peter a petroleum engineer was neighbor (One house away) to Richard Lloyd Adams who was into plastics, just like a false defector Robert Edward Webster. Adam's company made plastic pipe etc for petroleum companies and gas production.
Peter knew Adam's.
Both lived at their respective Dorothy Street addresses before 1950.
Adams made Jack Ruby's twistboards.


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Sun 12 Sep - 23:59
For money the story was Lee bad man.
For history the story is Lee didn't do it
Thanks Vinny.

That's it in a nutshell.

But I'll say again, I don't entirely blame her. She was being cynically used no matter which way you slice it, or which side you're pointing at. There was no way any morals or ethics she may have had, were going to overcome the might of the US government,or the Soviet government, let alone Miss Prissy or Atilla the Ruth. So she may as well cynically squeaze whatever she could for herself out of the situation.

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Mon 13 Sep - 9:43
Agreed Ed and Greg. She did end up getting quite a bit of money. However she was not the only one. Tippit's wife Marie also received a lot of donations from the American public.

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Mon 13 Sep - 11:32
Yes quite natural under her circumstances to smartly go along with the capitalists.
She would have plenty of face saved for later and make her own case that Lee was innocent.

If she did it in reverse her plight might be worse.

She had to forget everything then be reprogrammed
by 'Priscilla'... a sleeper of our own.

OF NOTE
The calls from Ruby('s)

The statement by Adam's as to the calls by Ruby, doesn't match (elapsed time of call)
A late September call to introduce yourself, talk business and come to an understanding... in three minutes???
Unless it was late August call not offered by FBI/Telephone company records which begs why it was not included. I'd imagine they authorities would supply it.
Extant call records though are interesting and show multiple 3min calls, as described by Adams as calls to arrange meetings with Ruby, an understandable call duration.

Then a 14min call on October 31 ...(Halloween).
A call attributed to Ruby to the Plaste-Lite company number and received by BUDDY(?)
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Who is Buddy?  
An employee of Adam's?
Why the long call on All Hallows Eve (4pm.)..?
I see calls to another BUDDY not associated with PlasteLite, a Buddy Heard.

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Now the kicker.
After Ruby's arrest the calls from Ruby's (by Senator etc) are quick, no conversations 😳
About a Couple Minutes or less, all calls are what I believe are known to be bugged so no chit chat, ....acting guilty or incriminating as it is.
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Senator etc, don't wanna talk on the phone it appears
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Mon 13 Sep - 12:50
The call to ED 5 1266 (Plaste-Lite) by Ruby to Adam's or Buddy for 14 minutes was preceded by a 19 min call to brother Earl in Chicago....ostensibly about a twist board deal with Adam's Plaste-Lite,
or this is a cover for something,, as Ruby wasn't making, designing, engineering or owning patents on Twist Boards but merely hawking them to Newspaper men.
ITS ODD.

Especially odd is Adam's description of Ruby speaking or talking with a Times Herald and Dallas News men just before Adam's meeting with Ruby.
Didn't appear Ruby was interested in introducing the maker and seller of the twistboards to the newsmen for a News story or such salesmanship.
ITS ODD.

From Kharkov to Ft. Worth the assassination math does have common denominator.
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Mon 13 Sep - 12:58
More about our plastic man

RICHARD LLOYD ADAMS. Of the Plaste-Lite Co.

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Mon 13 Sep - 13:02
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Mon 13 Sep - 14:39
Marina would have been given care for any condition caused by her 'assignment' to attach herself to Lee and only Lee... for which she was debased by coworkers and friends.
If she did need a vacation alone it may have been to recover and receive psychological treatments

In the Soviet Union, systematic political abuse of psychiatry took place[1] and was based on the interpretation of political dissent as a psychiatric problem.[2] It was called "psychopathological mechanisms" of dissent.[3]


The Serbsky Central Research Institute for Forensic Psychiatry, also briefly called the Serbsky Institute (the part of its building in Moscow)
During the leadership of General Secretary Leonid Brezhnev, psychiatry was used as a tool to eliminate political opponents ("dissidents") who openly expressed beliefs that contradicted official dogma.[4] The term "philosophical intoxication" was widely used to diagnose mental disorders in cases where people disagreed with leaders and made them the target of criticism that used the writings by Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, and Vladimir Lenin.[5] Article 58-10 of the Stalin Criminal Code—which as Article 70 had been shifted into the RSFSR Criminal Code of 1962—and Article 190-1 of the RSFSR Criminal Code along with the system of diagnosing mental illness, developed by academician Andrei Snezhnevsky, created the very preconditions under which non-standard beliefs could easily be transformed into a criminal case, and it, in its turn, into a psychiatric diagnosis.[6] Anti-Soviet political behavior, in particular, being outspoken in opposition to the authorities, demonstrating for reform, writing books were defined in some persons as being simultaneously a criminal act (e.g., violation of Articles 70 or 190-1), a symptom (e.g., "delusion of reformism"), and a diagnosis (e.g., "sluggish schizophrenia").[7] Within the boundaries of the diagnostic category, the symptoms of pessimism, poor social adaptation and conflict with authorities were themselves sufficient for a formal diagnosis of "sluggish schizophrenia."[8]

The psychiatric incarceration was conducted to suppress emigration, distribution of prohibited documents or books, participation in civil rights actions and demonstrations, and involvement in forbidden religious activity.[9] The religious faith of prisoners, including well-educated former atheists who adopted a religion, was determined to be a form of mental illness that needed to be cured.[10] The KGB routinely sent dissenters to psychiatrists for diagnosing to avoid embarrassing public trials and to discredit dissidence as the product of ill minds.[11] Formerly highly classified extant documents from "Special file" of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union published after the dissolution of the Soviet Union demonstrate that the authorities of the country quite consciously used psychiatry as a tool to suppress dissent.[12]

In the 1960s, a vigorous movement grew up protesting against abuse of psychiatry in the USSR.[13]

Marina of course in myth and legend is only going to leave Russia due to Lee's leaving

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Mon 13 Sep - 15:00


"According to the commission, Oswald and Marina agreed that she needed "a change of scenery." Having been married less than six months, she took a three-week vacation by herself to visit an aunt in Kharkov. Kharkov in October is not the greatest place to visit, but off she went.

When she returned, she pursued her exit visa. She met with an MVD colonel, Nicolay Aksenov, who had to approve the exit permit. Marina thought that the interview might have been granted because her uncle was also an MVD colonel, but that makes little sense if her uncle opposed her departure. On Dec. 25, 1961, about six weeks after applying, she received her exit visa from the Soviet Union, as did Oswald. Marina told the Commission that she was surprised to receive permission. That is an understatement — what happened was unheard-of. Although the Warren Commission tried to argue that these things were not that uncommon, they just were.

Let's recap here:

1. Marina, part of the Soviet upper-middle class, reasonably educated and an attractive young woman, meets Lee Harvey Oswald and is so smitten by him that she agrees to marry him in a little over a month — two weeks of which he spent courting her from a hospital bed.

2. The Soviet government grants Marina permission to marry him in the span of 10 days, despite the fact that this is an MVD colonel's niece marrying a U.S. defector.

3. Oswald immediately decides to head back to the United States, and in spite of her uncle's supposed objections — and Prusakov could have stopped this dead in its tracks if he wanted — she is granted permission to leave the Soviet Union in the company of an American defector. The time between her formal request and receiving permission is a matter of weeks.

If the Warren Commission has the facts right — and we think they do — then this is clear: the Soviet government wanted Marina and Oswald to marry and they wanted them to go together to the United States. That is crystal clear. Now, we take a leap, but a reasonable one: The only agency in the Soviet Union with the ability and interest to get this done was the KGB."


QUESTION
Where did Marina go for pre-natal care during 3 weeks of her pregnancy while in Ukraine?
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Mon 13 Sep - 15:23
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After Oswald and Marina became acquainted at a dance in March 1961, Oswald came down with an "ear cold" and had to be hospitalized. Marina started visiting him in hospital. And in less than two months, the Leninsky District Registry Office issued the couple Marriage License No. 416. 
The swiftness of their marriage registration could only be envied, given the fact that it was a mixed marriage. It usually takes three months after a marriage application is filed for the official wedding ceremony to be held. And that was in the 1960s, and marrying an American, so swiftly -- all this seemed more than strange. But on the other hand, the explanation could be primitively simple. Although there was a kind of thaw in our relations with America at that time, we still pointed our fingers at Americans, calling them "capitalists."
But here was an American who found asylum in the USSR, and had fallen in love with a Russian girl - why not pull off a propaganda stunt?

Yet the new family was kind of strange, the author continues. In moments of frankness, Marina confessed to Maya Gertsovich that her husband was a tyrant and scandalmonger, he practically gave her no money, although he demanded "steak and wine" for supper. And in general, Marina confided, he did not love her at all - that was probably his assignment to marry her. And when it became clear that
Oswald was returning to the United States, Marina said she would not go to America "for anything in the world." Marina told her neighbor that Lee was teaching her English, but that she had no intention to speak that language.

Her neighbors tried to talk Marina into leaving for America together with her husband, motivating their reasoning by the fact that
"Oswald's mother might be better natured," and that here in Minsk, they had practically no furniture at home.
Lee Harvey's first daughter was born in 1962, and instead of a crib, the baby slept in a small washtub. What kind of a life was that? But Marina told her neighbors: "America is an alien country to me."
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Mon 13 Sep - 17:49
Ed,
Compare the date inscription on the silver cup Marina gave LEE on her return from vacation to the inscription on the back of the DeMohrenschildt photograph.

1. CE 183


https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=561&tab=page


(16H pp. 537-538)


Letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to Marguerite Oswald, dated October 22, 1959, with envelope. (In the Index, this letter is given the year 1959, but the year 1959 is obviously a mistake. It should be 1961.). He mentions Marina in the letter. He spells Marina's maiden name as Proosakova. The typist spells it Proosakava. In his letter he writes, “For my birthday, Marina sent me a gold and silver cup with the inscription, “To my Dear Husband on his birthday 18/X/61 very nice don't you think, Marina is on her vacation (sic) now, she is spending it with her aunt in the city of “KHARKOV” about 600 miles South East of here.... We both agreeded (sic) that she should go to a new enviroment (sic) on her vaction (sic)...”


2. The “Hunter For Fascists” photograph in the possession of George DeMohrenschildt
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=961#relPageId=234&tab=page



3. CE 13 Letter from Lee Oswald to the Russian Embassy in Washington. He uses the Americanized version of the date, July 1, 1963.


4. CE 14 Letter from Marina Oswald to the Russian Embassy. She uses the Cryllic version of the date, July 8, 1963


Lee used Americanized version of dating things.
Marina used Cryllic version.


Steve Thomas
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Mon 13 Sep - 18:06
Nicely Done Mr Thomas.
Appreciate your work Steve!
Also appreciate your replies on EdForum.
I don't always reply there.
So this is doubled
Ed

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Mon 13 Sep - 19:09
@Ed.Ledoux wrote:Nicely Done Mr Thomas.
Appreciate your work Steve!
Also appreciate your replies on EdForum.
I don't always reply there.
So this is doubled
Ed

Ed,

As I told Larry Hancock, I believe, but cannot prove, that the Soviet's swift approval of Marina's marriage and her departture (especially with child) is a indication that they wanted to get Marina to the United States in general, and Fort Worth specifically as quickly as possible.
Fort Worth because of its role in the aerospace industry.
I do not know if she was supposed to give someone information, or to get information from someone.

Look who got in touch with her as soon as she got to Fort Worth.
Max Clark.
MEMO: THE LEE HARVEY OSWALD CASE #351164 (ADDRESS BOOK)


biography of Max Clark Maxwell Edward Clark


https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=9836&relPageId=3


“Max Edward Clark was employed by Convair, a division of General Dynamics Corporation, Fort Worth, Texas, as a “Supervisor of Industrial Security and Investigation”, requiring access to classified matter up to and including, Top Secret”.

Steve Thomas
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Mon 13 Sep - 23:18
I agree there was a engineering/aerospace/plastic/geochemical component that was dangle/espionage angle.
That plastic spray nozzle that Webster demonstrates was too much for Soviets to resist

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