Palamara On Harvey And Lee

Was reading through Vince's book and came across this section on the Two Oswalds theory.

Another Central Issue: Second Oswalds

Regarding all the stories of “Second Oswalds” popping up shortly before the assassination,79 my number one suspect is Michael Paine, the estranged husband of Ruth Paine, the woman who took in
Marina Oswald and her children and who got Oswald the job at the Book Depository. I first came to this conclusion in 1996 and presented my findings at the COPA conference in Washington, D.C.
that same year. Paine experts Steven Jones, Barbara LaMonica and Carol Hewett, as well as the audience, were stunned at the resemblance (Paine on the left, Oswald on the right). Again, we have
all that raw WFAA/ABC footage I came across in 1991 to thank for this - as many people told me, their only image of Paine was how he appeared 30 years later on the Frontline television program, not as he appeared back in 1963:

As I demonstrated in my last book, a relatively new document was discovered showing that Secret Service agent Floyd Boring, the number two agent on Kennedy’s White House Detail and the planner
of the Texas trip from the agency’s point of view (and who had also been on the Florida trip and countless other trips before that), claimed on 12/2/63 that the chauffeur to Agriculture Secretary Orville Freeman stated that he encountered Oswald in Washington, D.C. on 9/27/63! As researcher Deb Galentine wrote to me: “LHO supposedly arrived in Mexico City on 9/27/63. But this report has him in Washington DC on that date. Ruth Paine had recently returned to New Orleans shortly before this date from the Washington DC area.

She had incorporated a visit to CIA headquarters while in the D.C. area in order to “see her sister.” I have doubts about Ruth traveling alone on her road trip with two small children. I suspect she took her husband along. So it may be possible that Michael Paine stayed behind in the area. Someone in the D.C./PA/Baltimore area was impersonating LHO in several places during that time frame.”

Researcher Carolina Lynn also weighed in on the matter: This is intriguing on many levels. First, the witness is a chauffeur for Secretary of Agriculture Orville Freeman, a seemingly very credible witness. The driver spoke to a D.C. policeman about the demeanor of the “Oswald” look-alike he encountered. [Sadly, the report says the policeman did not interview or ID “Oswald”]. Second, the report throughout refers to the “suspect” as Harvey Lee Oswald,” a switching of the name that author John Armstrong believes is government code to indicate the Russian-native doppelganger of the
New Orleans-born Lee Harvey Oswald… “Lee Harvey Oswald” had by the date of this report, Dec. 2, 1963, become the most notorious name in U.S. history, repeated over and over on TV and radio and in newspapers. So it is hard to believe the name reversal could be “accidental.” Third, The Warren Omission Report is adamant that “Oswald” was in Mexico City on September 27, 1963, the verified
date of the DC incident, so this person was not the same “Oswald” in Mexico!

Interestingly, in a 6/3/60 FBI memo to the Office of Security, Department of State, at a time when the real Oswald was in Russia, none other than FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover himself noted: “Since
there is a possibility that an imposter is using Oswald’s birth certificate, any current information the Department of State may have concerning subject will be appreciated.”81 In addition, while the
real Oswald was in Russia, Oswald’s name was curiously placed on 1/20/61 on the original bid form for Bolton Ford, Inc. The purchaser was listed as “Friends of Democratic Cuba,” 402 St. Charles Street,New Orleans, Louisiana” which was incorporated on 1/9/61.82

Former Chicago FBI Special Agent in Charge W. Guy Banister was on the articles of incorporation for the Friends of Democratic Cuba. As author Jim DiEugenio stated, “Its ostensible purpose was to raise
funds for the anti-Castro cause.”

What could be the purpose of setting up an Oswald trip to Mexico (or faking one) and then have someone posing as him in the DC area? I could see having an Oswald double in the Dallas area going to a gun range or being an obnoxious to a used car dealer to give the impression of Oswald as a malcontent.

Wasn’t an Oswald spotted in Clinton, Louisiana at about this time?

Does the CIA headquarters allow relatives inside to visit employees?

The whole Two Oswald stuff is based upon on mistaken identity, errors in records and documents etc. Armstrong has built a whole theory out of it.

Correct. And further, people like Vince will continue to do and say anything - anything - in order to keep the cottage industry going so suckers continue to think something is new and will spend money on their books and speeches.

Yes appendix 3 is selling like hot cakes.

I think the bullshit about Oswald being in MC is just that - bullshit. The reason why I think that is simple. If he had been down there to go to the embassy to arrange a trip to go back to Russia, his photo would have been taken there. The Mexican and Cuban embassies were one of the most watched embassies in the western hemisphere due to all of the Cold War paranoia. Yet, the only photos the government was able to provide was that husky crew-cut-haired guy that was shown later.

And even Hoover himself admitted that Oswald was probably impersonated. And I don't mean so in a way like the nutty Harvey and Lee people make it out to be. But I don't think Oswald was ever down there and I also think they wanted to make it seem as if he was as a prelude to putting the blame on Castro/Russia's involvement in the assassination with the idea of invading Cuba again. But somewhere along the way, that got called off. And I also think Oswald was never supposed to have stayed alive at the movie theater.

All of this of course has been said a million times but just saying it again here.

Why didn’t the conspirators themselves kill Oswald after the assassination and bury him in the desert rather than taking a chance of him getting arrested and either spilling the beans or convincing them he knew nothing? If he just “disappeared”, the rifle, backyard photos and Walker writings still would have been used to frame him in absentia. Why go through the setup of the Tippit shooting (which I doubt Oswald did and may have nothing to do with the assassination and might simply have been an opportunistic murder while the cops were spread thin) and the Texas Theater apprehension where so many things could go wrong and require a hit at the police station?

I believe he was supposed to be murdered at the theater. He had a gun, Tippit had just been killed and the cops were led to the theater for a shootout with him. Then, they'd be able to say they got the killer of both men, he was killed while resisting arrest, etc. etc.

lanceman wrote:Why didn’t the conspirators themselves kill Oswald after the assassination and bury him in the desert rather than taking a chance of him getting arrested and either spilling the beans or convincing them he knew nothing? If he just “disappeared”, the rifle, backyard photos and Walker writings still would have been used to frame him in absentia. Why go through the setup of the Tippit shooting (which I doubt Oswald did and may have nothing to do with the assassination and might simply have been an opportunistic murder while the cops were spread thin) and the Texas Theater apprehension where so many things could go wrong and require a hit at the police station?

Like JFK_Case said, I think the prevailing theory is that Oswald eventually figured out what was happening to him and evaded his own death for a lot longer than was planned, so Ruby had to get sent in as a cleaner. I’m not sure about the theater though. Oswald may have specifically gone to a public place to lower his chances of getting whacked. 

Having an accurate recounting of Oswald’s movements after he left the TSBD instead of the bus/cab fantasy would go a long way in answering this question. I’d really like to know what the hell Bill Randle was doing until he popped up at 7:30 p.m. in San Antonio that night, but hell it could be nothing. 

Point is that if the plan really was to kill Oswald, the conspirators had to have had a plan for tracking and/or getting Oswald somewhere they could do the deed. Death by cop seems to be the obvious solution, but if Oswald really pulled a gun in the theater, why not just point-blank him in the scuffle?

I’d really like to know what the hell Bill Randle was doing until he popped up at 7:30 p.m. in San Antonio that night, but hell it could be nothing. 


According to most reports he was in Austin Texas at around 7.00pm on the 22nd November 1963.
Reports suggest he flew back to Dallas late that night. 

He denied knowing Oswald in one report and in another stated he knew him. I find Randle's behaviour suspicious along with his wife Linnie Mae.
He was targeted by the FBI or Secret service that Friday night as having a connection to the purchase of a rifle sight and at one stage was a key person of interest at least according to the first reports. Is it not strange that both Bill Randle and  Buell Frazier were targeted that evening? 

The Randle's and the Frazier's have always come across as a group of people who have not been forthcoming and who have been prone to changing their stories sometimes wildly.

Mick_Purdy wrote:I’d really like to know what the hell Bill Randle was doing until he popped up at 7:30 p.m. in San Antonio that night, but hell it could be nothing. 


According to most reports he was in Austin Texas at around 7.00pm on the 22nd November 1963.
Reports suggest he flew back to Dallas late that night. 

He denied knowing Oswald in one report and in another stated he knew him. I find Randle's behaviour suspicious along with his wife Linnie Mae.
He was targeted by the FBI or Secret service that Friday night as having a connection to the purchase of a rifle sight and at one stage was a key person of interest at least according to the first reports. Is it not strange that both Bill Randle and  Buell Frazier were targeted that evening? 

The Randle's and the Frazier's have always come across as a group of people who have not been forthcoming and who have been prone to changing their stories sometimes wildly.

Exactly what I was referencing, and I totally agree. Mixed up Austin with San Antonio cause that was the attending FBI field office, I think. 

Bill’s whereabouts are completely unaccounted for for pretty much the entire day, and it was only a 3.5 hour drive from Dallas to Austin.

The motel manager reports him making comments about knowing Oswald and possible foreknowledge, both of which he later denies. Gets investigated in connection with the scope…

Relevance to Oswald’s “escape” is..the Secret Service writes in their official arrest/interrogation report for Oswald that Bill drove Oswald to and from work..and the report was written on Nov. 26th. Hard to believe they’d mix up Buell and Bill at such a late date, but who knows. 

Roger Craig and Marion Meharg, completely independent, corroborative witnesses see “Oswald” hop in a station wagon running from the TSBD. 

Is it possible a certain countertop salesman borrowed the Paine station wagon and took Oswald to the movies?

Still have a hard time accepting an intricate plot that relies on the cops killing Oswald in the theater. And witnesses seeing a man behaving suspiciously when the cops drive by and then sneaking into a movie theater. Especially if the Tippit killing had nothing to do with the assassination and therefore could not be foreseen to the plotters. If Oswald left the TSBD by the Rambler, the easiest thing to do would just take him somewhere and kill him. The authorities would have a D.B. Cooper mystery but plenty of bread crumbs tying Oswald to the killing.

Even if the cops struck the first blow in the fight with Oswald at the theater, the cops still didn’t shoot him. If the cops killing Oswald was essential to the plot, why didn’t they make sure to have a designated killer among the cops? How could they know in advance which cops would be at the theater to apprehend the suspect? Seems to rely on perfectly choreographed timing.

lanceman wrote:Still have a hard time accepting an intricate plot that relies on the cops killing Oswald in the theater. And witnesses seeing a man behaving suspiciously when the cops drive by and then sneaking into a movie theater. Especially if the Tippit killing had nothing to do with the assassination and therefore could not be foreseen to the plotters. If Oswald left the TSBD by the Rambler, the easiest thing to do would just take him somewhere and kill him. The authorities would have a D.B. Cooper mystery but plenty of bread crumbs tying Oswald to the killing.

Even if the cops struck the first blow in the fight with Oswald at the theater, the cops still didn’t shoot him. If the cops killing Oswald was essential to the plot, why didn’t they make sure to have a designated killer among the cops? How could they know in advance which cops would be at the theater to apprehend the suspect? Seems to rely on perfectly choreographed timing.

I see your point, but you might not be giving Oswald enough credit. I doubt the theater was a pre-planned murder site for Oswald, but what if Oswald realized what was happening and got his ass to a conspicuous public place on purpose? Could the conspirators really have had such a perfect plan so as to control Oswald’s movements if he figured out what was going on? 

For example, I could see Bill Randle giving Oswald a ride from the TSBD, then booking it to Austin after the arrest and hiding his assistance in the escape of the alleged assassin to cover his own ass. That wouldn’t mean Bill was in on the plot or anything, just that Oswald got ahold of his neighbor to get a ride before he was even a suspect. Whoever was supposed to kill Oswald might have just not been planning on him hopping in a car right away. 

Of course this is all speculative as hell. There are enough anomalies in Oswald’s alleged movements after leaving the TSBD that it’s hard to say what really happened, and what the original plan was. Ruby sure as hell doesn’t seem like plan A though. 

Shit some people think Tippit was supposed to kill Oswald and Oswald just got the jump on him. It explains Oswald getting away alive at least.

Additional thoughts:

He said "I had a pistol with me, you know how boys are" or something like that. The larger question is why DID he have a pistol? And why DID he go to a movie theater? I can see him going to a movie when there'd be no more work for the day. But he supposedly went to his rooming house and changed his clothes and brought his pistol with him. To me, the pistol carrying is just slightly odd behavior and it sounds to me like someone told him to bring the pistol with him. And then, lo and behold, here come the calvary, turning the house lights on and shaking down the theater. Something caused Oswald to flip out but he survived with no shots fired. Take a look at him in that close up photo outside braying about. IMO, they wanted a showy arrest and murder with people around. Better that than a quiet hit job and then say, "There's the man who did it all." Like the showy BYP photos.

There supposedly was a throwdown wallet at the Tippit scene with Oswald's ID in it. The Tippit murder, therefore, was not an exclusive event separate from the JFK murder. Like the backyard photos, which IMO, they actually went overboard on (e.g., it wasn't enough to just have him with the rifle but also with left-wing newspapers and a pistol too), they had to somehow tie him with evidence that would lead back to him. The faked BYP did that and because he supposedly had the same pistol with him as in the theater, THAT tied him to both crimes.

Think about it - take the pistol away in the theater and what do you have? Nothing. The Tippit case falls apart. Take away the BYP and what do you have? Nothing. The JFK case, the Tippit murder and the Walker case - pinned on LHO months later when they didn't even know who the fuck did it before LHO was known - fall apart.

I do believe he knew or it dawned on him that the jig was up which is why he broke character and blurted out that he was only the patsy.

I do want to say that it's nice to hear you're playing devil's advocate and are carefully applying critical thinking.

I think Greg’s essay “J.D. Tippit: An Alternative Solution” is pretty convincing that the Tippit shooting had nothing to do with the JFK assassination and that no wallet was found at the Tippit murder scene.

https://gregrparker.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/JD-TIPPIT-an-alternative-solution.pdf?595453&595453

Greg plausibly argues that the murder was tied to a local criminal operation. I would also suspect that there was some kind sex angle with either a girlfriend or maybe a local brothel which is what brought Tippit to the area in the first place.

I also have a huge problem with the timing and the logic of the Tippit killer being Oswald.

1. Why would Oswald be walking at a rapid pace east on 10th street with an obvious destination (nobody walks quickly without having a destination) but then go in the exact opposite direction after the shooting? Wouldn’t he continue on in his original direction?

2. If Oswald was originally walking west on 10th when he encountered Tippit (as Dale Myers believes), he would have had to have walked much further than the route pushed by the Warren Commission. Or started much earlier and decided to turn around for no obvious reason. The timing falls apart even by generous assumptions. Unless he had a ride but there is no evidence of that. Gary Mack and Dave Perry walked this route out and said it couldn’t be done. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fb1dkm5_chs

The only way I can see Oswald encountering Tippit is IF Oswald really DID take the bus (and I recognize there are problems with this and reason to believe the transfer was planted), and was trying to reach Marsalis to use his bus transfer.* But still, the timing does not work out unless he had a ride sometime between leaving the TSBD and the Tippit murder.

* Would he be going north (back into downtown Dallas) or south (perhaps toward Red Bird airport)? Supposedly, when he left the rooming house, the housekeeper noted he momentarily waited at the bus stop which would have been a northbound bus back into downrown Dallas.

That frugal Oswald had to go out of his way, quite literally, to use a bus transfer he could not have ever received.
Anything to save 23cents and the Tippit timeline I guess.

Austin...

What was Importance of being in Austin.
Oh wait.

"...Ann Johnson A waitress for Jetton's Catering, Johnson served at the Forth Worth breakfast and was on her way to serve at the planned Austin banquet when the assassination took place. Her husband, the late Peter Johnson, worked at the Dallas Kodak lab and kept slides of the Zapruder film as souvenirs. Johnson was interviewed with her daughter, Jean Johnson Brown. Recorded March 1..,"

Importance of Austin as a back up assassination site?

That essay from Greg is excellent, and he gives a plausible motive for the cover-up but I’m struggling a bit with an alternate motive for the actual murder. Tippit responds to a disturbance, pulls over next to a suspicious character to ask about it then just gets executed in broad daylight?

Greg D. said the following in Gil Jesus’ thread on the same topic at the Ed forum:

“not clear why either Jimmy Burt, William Smith, or James Markham et al of the neighborhood would impulsively kill a police officer simply for being stopped and questioned. If evasion of arrest was the issue, would not simply running away instead of talking through the window to Tippit have been simpler, not to mention more rational, than the utter seriousness of killing a police officer dead in broad daylight with people around? Looks more like Tippit went into an ambush and it was a professional hit, an execution.”

He has a point. Gil theorizes that if any link could be made between Tippit and some of the gang member suspects, like a prior arrest, it might explain why the suspect wouldn’t just run away when he saw a cop car. Since Tippit’s killer seems to have wanted to make damn sure he was dead, maybe it was to prevent himself from being identified.

Still though, if getting caught on illegal firearms possession was the concern why not just run? If Tippit knows you, calls you out by name etc. and you know you’re catching a charge and getting locked up if you run or not it sort of makes sense, but still. Capital murder in front of witnesses in the suburbs seems like a hell of an overreaction unless you are damn sure you’re getting away with it in advance.

The complete opposite end of the spectrum is the theory from captain doppelgäng involving Croy and Westbrook, which on its own is not the worst explanation I’ve read as long as you replace any mention of LEE Oswald with “the killer of Tippit”.

Either way, if Oswald isn’t at the scene, that missing chunk of time between the rooming house and theater is a big question mark. Did he walk all the way to the theater? Was he that tuned in at the time to a risk to his life that he wanted to get somewhere public? Was he following some sort of protocol? Did he just feel like catching a movie after getting off work early?

If Oswald had intelligence training, he surely would know how to ditch surveillance, so maybe he was moving around erratically to avoid being followed? I’d sure as hell grab my gun if I thought people were trying to kill me.

I think Oswald more or less went directly to the theater. 

If you accept the bus, taxi, Beckley St. rooming house scenario, Oswald leaves the rooming house at about 1:00 PM and walks to the theater. Google maps says this takes about 22 minutes. For Oswald it might have been a few minutes less. He would likely have walked past the shoe store at about the same time the police would have been responding with sirens to the Tippit murder scene. He ducks into the lobby of the shoe store to avoid being noticed by the cops not because of the Tippit killing (which he knows nothing about) but because he does not know if his absence from the TSBD has been noticed yet and reported to the police along with his description. If he does sneak in to the theater it is not because he is cheap it is because he does not know if his description has been broadcast.

Alternatively, Oswald leaves the TSBD via the Rambler about 12:45 PM. Google maps says it is 7 minutes by car to the Texas Theater. Because of the heavy downtown traffic, it might be more likely 10-15 minutes. This would have him entering the theater consistent with the 1:00-1:07 PM claim of theater snack concession operator Butch Burrows. Although I still think that rather than have the cops kill Oswald, the conspirators would have done the job themselves and not risk having him fall into police custody alive, this could have been a compartmentalized hand-off for the next link in a chain that failed.

I’m putting my thoughts together on the actual motivation of the Tippit murder.

Regarding the Tippit murder:

From the police radio transcripts* it appears that Tippit made two unanswered calls to the dispatcher sometime at 1:08 PM. He was likely calling to note he was stopping a suspect, calling for backup or calling for outstanding warrants on a suspect who had provided an ID.

There is a good likelihood that Tippit suspected that he was dealing with an armed man. He could have noticed the possibility of a pistol in the jacket pocket as the suspect leaned over to converse through the vent window.

It also appears that Tippit had his pistol in hand by the time he got out of the car. When his body was discovered the pistol was out of its holster lying on the street, though I suppose it could have fallen out.

What is a reasonable interpretation is that you had an armed man that could have been involved in a “disturbance” and was in an agitated emotional state. You also had a cop that may have still been affected by PTSD from his WW2 service, who is on his own with a possibly armed suspect who is apparently non-cooperative. It’s not too much of a stretch to see how a sudden move or even look could have set off the shooter.

It would be interesting to see if there was a shift briefing on outstanding cases and at large suspects for that day. And hospital emergency room cases for that day and the rest of the weekend.

* Though there is nothing in the transcripts or voice recordings I’ve heard about how Tippit was made aware of this disturbance. This is confirmed by an inquiry by another officer asking if Tippit was on a call which suggests that an alert about the disturbance did not go out over the police radio. Did he use one of those police phones to call in and was informed about the disturbance? Did Dallas have such a system at that time and is there a map/list of their locations?

JFK_FNG wrote:

lanceman wrote:Why didn’t the conspirators themselves kill Oswald after the assassination and bury him in the desert rather than taking a chance of him getting arrested and either spilling the beans or convincing them he knew nothing? If he just “disappeared”, the rifle, backyard photos and Walker writings still would have been used to frame him in absentia. Why go through the setup of the Tippit shooting (which I doubt Oswald did and may have nothing to do with the assassination and might simply have been an opportunistic murder while the cops were spread thin) and the Texas Theater apprehension where so many things could go wrong and require a hit at the police station?

Like JFK_Case said, I think the prevailing theory is that Oswald eventually figured out what was happening to him and evaded his own death for a lot longer than was planned, so Ruby had to get sent in as a cleaner. I’m not sure about the theater though. Oswald may have specifically gone to a public place to lower his chances of getting whacked. 

Having an accurate recounting of Oswald’s movements after he left the TSBD instead of the bus/cab fantasy would go a long way in answering this question. I’d really like to know what the hell Bill Randle was doing until he popped up at 7:30 p.m. in San Antonio that night, but hell it could be nothing. 

Point is that if the plan really was to kill Oswald, the conspirators had to have had a plan for tracking and/or getting Oswald somewhere they could do the deed. Death by cop seems to be the obvious solution, but if Oswald really pulled a gun in the theater, why not just point-blank him in the scuffle?

There is also the fact that Marina and Ruth were going shoe shopping that day. The Texas Theatre had 3 shoe stores close by. Did Oswald look in all the shoe shop windows looking for them, and go to the movies when he could not find them?

And on that note -- I believe Brewer put the time back as to when Lee was looking in the window. I think it was more like about 1 pm, but made later in order to accommodate Lee as Tippit murderer. Just one of those pesky little details that the  cops had to sort out with Brewer and Postal - probably the reason for taking so long in getting statements from them.  There does seem to have been some delay before Postal phoned the police. Brewer and Burroughs searched the place and Postal had a discussion with Brewer and then Burroughs.  No real timeline on this was ever done and no questions were ever asked about how long it took to phone. 

Inspector Kelley quoted Oswald as saying he took some busses to the theatre, befire he has Oswald changing his mind and "admitting one bus, one cab. I think the two bus story is the right one.

I was looking at Brewer’s affidavit (December 6!) and Postal’s (December 4!).

Brewer mentions a police car with sirens going west past the shoe store and then turning around and heading back east when the suspect hid in his lobby. I recalled there where several locations given of the Tippit murder and I thought the time when they were straightened out would be the time that the police car got the correction and turned around.

At one time they had as many as three addresses as the location of Tippit! Best I can tell, they got it straightened out about 1:22.

Either parts of the transcript are removed or some transmissions were not clearly recorded and ignored or there was information being relayed by other means but is referred to in the transcript.

Ironically, Postal’s affidavit is longer and more detailed yet she didn’t see Oswald sneak in and didn’t remember selling him a ticket even though the theater had just opened less than 30 minutes ago.

Strange that we don’t hear anything from other theater patrons about what happened, isn’t it? As far as I know, no one has ever come forward and related any details during a “Where were you on November 22, 1963?” interview or story. There were reporters present when Oswald was taken out. Did any bother to ask Postal, Brewer, Burrows or any of the theater patrons what they saw? Weren’t there like 15 patrons in the theater?

Lanceman it's so bad... the cops run up to the balcony, reporters are up there too.  
Yet cops (and a reporter?) have temerity to report there was no one in the balcony.
So why were they hanging out up there... shooting the breeze or interrogation of a suspect, and checking balcony patrons?
Blacks were typically relegated to balcony.
No mention of any blacks at the theater though.
Some said there were teens but imply white youths when it could be the opposite.

Jack Davis?


I sent Jack a message asking if it is him... lips seem fuller but could be his smile.  His hair is similar... kid looks 18, the age of Davis
Here is another comparison


Lips do thin with smile.
Nose looks good.
Eyes are good and the left eyebrow has a weird end in both pics!
Was Jack at DPD to give a statement and taken out the back of TT to a police car as witness Haire said.
Thanks, Ed

Hard to believe that a man suspected of being an armed killer of a cop/and or the president was approached by a single cop who did not have his pistol drawn.

lanceman wrote:Hard to believe that a man suspected of being an armed killer of a cop/and or the president was approached by a single cop who did not have his pistol drawn.

And that's why Greg's theory about the disturbance call makes so much sense.