Palamara On Harvey And Lee

First topic message reminder :

Was reading through Vince's book and came across this section on the Two Oswalds theory.

Another Central Issue: Second Oswalds

Regarding all the stories of “Second Oswalds” popping up shortly before the assassination,79 my number one suspect is Michael Paine, the estranged husband of Ruth Paine, the woman who took in
Marina Oswald and her children and who got Oswald the job at the Book Depository. I first came to this conclusion in 1996 and presented my findings at the COPA conference in Washington, D.C.
that same year. Paine experts Steven Jones, Barbara LaMonica and Carol Hewett, as well as the audience, were stunned at the resemblance (Paine on the left, Oswald on the right). Again, we have
all that raw WFAA/ABC footage I came across in 1991 to thank for this - as many people told me, their only image of Paine was how he appeared 30 years later on the Frontline television program, not as he appeared back in 1963:

As I demonstrated in my last book, a relatively new document was discovered showing that Secret Service agent Floyd Boring, the number two agent on Kennedy’s White House Detail and the planner
of the Texas trip from the agency’s point of view (and who had also been on the Florida trip and countless other trips before that), claimed on 12/2/63 that the chauffeur to Agriculture Secretary Orville Freeman stated that he encountered Oswald in Washington, D.C. on 9/27/63! As researcher Deb Galentine wrote to me: “LHO supposedly arrived in Mexico City on 9/27/63. But this report has him in Washington DC on that date. Ruth Paine had recently returned to New Orleans shortly before this date from the Washington DC area.

She had incorporated a visit to CIA headquarters while in the D.C. area in order to “see her sister.” I have doubts about Ruth traveling alone on her road trip with two small children. I suspect she took her husband along. So it may be possible that Michael Paine stayed behind in the area. Someone in the D.C./PA/Baltimore area was impersonating LHO in several places during that time frame.”

Researcher Carolina Lynn also weighed in on the matter: This is intriguing on many levels. First, the witness is a chauffeur for Secretary of Agriculture Orville Freeman, a seemingly very credible witness. The driver spoke to a D.C. policeman about the demeanor of the “Oswald” look-alike he encountered. [Sadly, the report says the policeman did not interview or ID “Oswald”]. Second, the report throughout refers to the “suspect” as Harvey Lee Oswald,” a switching of the name that author John Armstrong believes is government code to indicate the Russian-native doppelganger of the
New Orleans-born Lee Harvey Oswald… “Lee Harvey Oswald” had by the date of this report, Dec. 2, 1963, become the most notorious name in U.S. history, repeated over and over on TV and radio and in newspapers. So it is hard to believe the name reversal could be “accidental.” Third, The Warren Omission Report is adamant that “Oswald” was in Mexico City on September 27, 1963, the verified
date of the DC incident, so this person was not the same “Oswald” in Mexico!

Interestingly, in a 6/3/60 FBI memo to the Office of Security, Department of State, at a time when the real Oswald was in Russia, none other than FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover himself noted: “Since
there is a possibility that an imposter is using Oswald’s birth certificate, any current information the Department of State may have concerning subject will be appreciated.”81 In addition, while the
real Oswald was in Russia, Oswald’s name was curiously placed on 1/20/61 on the original bid form for Bolton Ford, Inc. The purchaser was listed as “Friends of Democratic Cuba,” 402 St. Charles Street,New Orleans, Louisiana” which was incorporated on 1/9/61.82

Former Chicago FBI Special Agent in Charge W. Guy Banister was on the articles of incorporation for the Friends of Democratic Cuba. As author Jim DiEugenio stated, “Its ostensible purpose was to raise
funds for the anti-Castro cause.”

Mick_Purdy wrote:

lanceman wrote:Hard to believe that a man suspected of being an armed killer of a cop/and or the president was approached by a single cop who did not have his pistol drawn.

And that's why Greg's theory about the disturbance call makes so much sense.

He told the media he had his pistol drawn and he was crouched low as he made his way to Oswald, stopping to harrass a couple of others on the way so as not to arouse Oswald's suspicion that he was the target.

The cops were all spinning the facts at every opportunity. In the same interview, he also said "Oswald gave no trouble..."

lanceman wrote:I was looking at Brewer’s affidavit (December 6!) and Postal’s (December 4!).

Brewer mentions a police car with sirens going west past the shoe store and then turning around and heading back east when the suspect hid in his lobby. I recalled there where several locations given of the Tippit murder and I thought the time when they were straightened out would be the time that the police car got the correction and turned around.

Of course this never happened.
No police cars drove past the shoe store.
Even when canvassing the neighborhood for the killer the patrols stopped at the Beckley and Jefferson intersection. Postal too described the scene, and it contradicted Brewer's.
Most of the details were gone over in a Texas Theater thread... Texas Theater Theatrics iirc

greg_parker wrote:

Mick_Purdy wrote:

lanceman wrote:Hard to believe that a man suspected of being an armed killer of a cop/and or the president was approached by a single cop who did not have his pistol drawn.

And that's why Greg's theory about the disturbance call makes so much sense.

He told the media he had his pistol drawn and he was crouched low as he made his way to Oswald, stopping to harrass a couple of others on the way so as not to arouse Oswald's suspicion that he was the target.

The cops were all spinning the facts at every opportunity. In the same interview, he also said "Oswald gave no trouble..."

One thought I’ve had a few times is if Oswald really pulled a gun on a cop and even pulled the trigger, why wouldn’t they charge him for it? At that point their case was entirely based on a generic description broadcast of the average American white guy. 

If Oswald really “gave no trouble” that would make a lot more sense. Also, if you are Oswald, sitting in the middle of a row in the theater, and there’s a cop slowly making their way over to you, gun drawn or not, and your intention is to kill him, why wait until the cop is literally on top of you to pull your gun? If you had really just murdered another cop in broad daylight (who was also just walking over to you), not to mention the President, it’s not like you’d be fooled by the cop harassing other patrons on the way over. 

The whole story has always seemed odd to me, but I’ve never really looked into it in much detail. The dramatized version in the movie JFK looks believable, but when I visualize myself in that situation I can’t imagine not having my hand on my gun the second I notice the police in the theater.

If Oswald had a gun in his hand he's a dead man in that theater. 
Any witnesses talk of any screams from the cops that "he's got a gun"? Yeah Nah. 

The whole gun story and Macca having his cap knocked off and the gun snapping is hysterical if it weren't so serious.

Mick_Purdy wrote:If Oswald had a gun in his hand he's a dead man in that theater. 
Any witnesses talk of any screams from the cops that "he's got a gun"? Yeah Nah. 

The whole gun story and Macca having his cap knocked off and the gun snapping is hysterical if it weren't so serious.

Do you think the cops brought the pistol to the theater with the intention of planting it on Oswald in the confusion of a scuffle?

At the time, the pistol was reported to be an automatic based on the shells found at the site and Ted Callahan’s testimony. The pistol supposedly seized from Oswald was a revolver.

In the Bart’s link he just posted in the Theater thread, McDonald on Nov. 23 tells the press that Oswald stood up, threw his hands up, and said “it’s all over now” - but no mention of a fight.

So we are supposed to believe that when McDonald tried to handcuff Oswald, Oswald brings his hands down from over his head, but instead of putting them behind his back grabs his gun and tries to shoot McDonald, but McDonald doesn’t mention that to the press?! Right.

Also, I agree that if Oswald has his gun out he’s likely toast; but the point is this is *supposed* to be a guy who’s willing to kill a cop just to get away. The whole thing just reeks of bullshit; but if the point was to make Oswald look like even more of a cop killer, why wouldn’t the DPD be blasting that story all over the press?

I assume you are referring to this entry: 

“ Dallas – [from interview of M. N. McDonald, Dallas patrolman]. The cashier at the picture show was the one who called in to say this guy was acting suspicious and hidden out in the balcony. I went in from the rear and came out through the curtains on the side of the screen. I noticed about 10 to 15 people sitting in the theater and they were spread out good. A man sitting near the front, and I still don't know who it was, tipped me the man I wanted was sitting on the third row from the rear on the ground floor and not in the balcony. I walked up the aisle and turned in Oswald's row. We were no more than a foot from each other when he suddenly stood up and raised both hands. "It's all over now," he told me. AP”

It seems like this is an excerpt from an interview. Do we know that a fight is not mentioned elsewhere in the interview?

The police radio recordings mention a fight at the theater and Oswald did have a bruise from a fight. The photo of Oswald being led from the theater suggests he was not going willingly (in my opinion). And Oswald told a reporter that he had been hit by a policeman.

Clearly, there was some kind of physical struggle.

I’m less trusting of accounts relayed through the media. The information just passes through too many filters which can accidentally or deliberately distort the original account.

What is curious is that it was claimed an unidentified man in the front row who tipped McDonald to where Oswald was sitting. I thought it was Johnny Brewer during his moment on the stage that fingered Oswald. Wouldn’t they want to get the name of this “unidentified man” for the case against Oswald who was still alive and would presumably be tried?

I’ll try to find the rest of the interview, but I guess my question is more about what started the fight. Yes Oswald got punched but was that really because he instigated it and pulled a gun (or not) or did the cops just beat him up and lie about it? Was anything planted during the scuffle?

That’s definitely weird about the unidentified man. Suspicious as hell if that’s what really happened. Are there any corroborating witnesses?

If we could take the theater material over to here that'd be awesome. Cheers Mick.

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1760p275-texas-theatre-theatrics

lanceman wrote:

Mick_Purdy wrote:If Oswald had a gun in his hand he's a dead man in that theater. 
Any witnesses talk of any screams from the cops that "he's got a gun"? Yeah Nah. 

The whole gun story and Macca having his cap knocked off and the gun snapping is hysterical if it weren't so serious.

Do you think the cops brought the pistol to the theater with the intention of planting it on Oswald in the confusion of a scuffle?

At the time, the pistol was reported to be an automatic based on the shells found at the site and Ted Callahan’s testimony. The pistol supposedly seized from Oswald was a revolver.

Yes I believe that's what happened. I can't prove that but like everything else in this case the cops just invented stuff, and lied their arses off with just about everything else.

The gun and Oswald is another BS story IMO. I really believe someone on the police force wanted Oswald dead in the theater. If some one can post eyewitness testimony or and affidavit stating that The cops screamed out Oswald's got a gun I'd like to see that. If Oswald really did have a gun on him he'd be a dead man - Dallas 1963. Those cops were after a cop killer. IMO someone on the force made sure Oswald was the eventual target inside the theater. Two unidentified people stood from their chairs and pointed to Oswald or where he was sitting at least....the whole thing is suspicious.