"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[ianlloyd]

This is my first post so apologies if it means retreading old ground. Post 587 contains a sentence which states that Oswald refused to be polygraphed and had refused before.
If the official story is true, that both the KGB and CIA/FBI had no interest in his defection and return then at what point in his life would he face a polygraph test. Would such a test be a requirement for radar operators, to gain a security clearance. Would it be SOP for any intelligence agency to polygraph a defector (ie Nosenko). Would Bookhout embellish Oswalds initial refusal, to make him appear more suspect.

For my part i find it difficult to believe that neither the KGB or CIA/FBI  would neglect a polygraph test under the circumstances surrounding his defection to Russia and his return with a Russian spouse.

Hi Alan, welcome...

That is an excellent question - maybe should be a new thread on this?

[ianlloyd]

,

FWIW

The Imperial Duo 620 camera did come with the flash unit as standard in the box.

http://www.collection-appareils.fr/x/html/page_standard.php?id_appareil=795

Strange then that the flash unit was never found in LHO's possessions.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=57781&relPageId=73 


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=713595 

Lee,

Would a flash only last a fraction of a second, not a few seconds as it appears PM's "light" does?

Was there a "night light" type attachment available
for the Imperial Reflex? (Then again, why would anyone have bothered taking one if they intended filming the motorcade in the middle of the day?).

I don't think the flash in Weigman is from the burst of light from a bulb, Ian.  I think it could be light reflecting back from the aluminium bowl that that bulb went into.  The round light spot in the Prayer Man film is quite dull.  Judging from the size of the spot in the film I think the flash unit is a good contender all round. 

Why would he take the flash unit?  Good question.  We know it was raining in the morning.  Quite overcast.  Light may not have been great especially around the TSBD which can be really shady with the trees dotted about.  Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Don't you find it peculiar that the flash unit that was allegedly found is not in the exhibits?

Remind anyone of the Minox camera charade?

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0269a.htm

Hi Lee,

I missed this one!!!

One question - (as per Robin Unger) - where does the light come from within the shadows to reflect off the reflector?

[GuestGuest]

,

FWIW

The Imperial Duo 620 camera did come with the flash unit as standard in the box.

http://www.collection-appareils.fr/x/html/page_standard.php?id_appareil=795

Strange then that the flash unit was never found in LHO's possessions.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=57781&relPageId=73 


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=713595 

Lee,

Would a flash only last a fraction of a second, not a few seconds as it appears PM's "light" does?

Was there a "night light" type attachment available
for the Imperial Reflex? (Then again, why would anyone have bothered taking one if they intended filming the motorcade in the middle of the day?).

I don't think the flash in Weigman is from the burst of light from a bulb, Ian.  I think it could be light reflecting back from the aluminium bowl that that bulb went into.  The round light spot in the Prayer Man film is quite dull.  Judging from the size of the spot in the film I think the flash unit is a good contender all round. 

Why would he take the flash unit?  Good question.  We know it was raining in the morning.  Quite overcast.  Light may not have been great especially around the TSBD which can be really shady with the trees dotted about.  Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Don't you find it peculiar that the flash unit that was allegedly found is not in the exhibits?

Remind anyone of the Minox camera charade?

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0269a.htm

Hi Lee,

I missed this one!!!

One question - (as per Robin Unger) - where does the light come from within the shadows to reflect off the reflector?

Your guess is as good as mine, Ian.

The same place its coming from if it's bouncing off an apple or sheet of waxed paper surrounding a sandwich.  Looking through the still frames of the Weigman film and there wasn't very much light getting to that corner of the TSBD entrance so it could be light reflecting back off the windows of the cars passing in last throws of the motorcade turning onto Elm from Houston Street.

If the circle of light is a legitimate 3d object being held by Prayer Man on the stairs and not some artifact or film anomaly then the light had to be coming from somewhere to light it up.  I'm no photo expert and do not know how much light would be needed to show this object up in the manner in which it appears but no matter what the object is I'm sure it requires some light but the additional from me is this; if there is enough light to light up the object then why doesn't it light up the face of Prayer Man? 

If the object is an apple how much light is needed to give that apple definition in the film versus not lighting up the figure of Prayer Man?  Would a shinier object, such as a flash unit bowl need less light bouncing off it to appear in the film and leave Prayer Man poorly lit?  These questions are beyond my remit but if anyone else can answer them I'd be chuffed to hear some possible answers.

At the end of the day some light source is required whether the object is an apple, a sandwich or a camera flash unit because the corner of the TSBD had very little natural light showing up in any photo or film.

[StanDane]

The light doesn't have to be directly on the object for it to appear much lighter than the background. For example, the front entryway of my home faces south. The front door is recessed back about 10-12 feet and is deep in the shadows. There's a small window on the front door that's primarily translucent glass. When viewing the entryway from the street, that window always stands out from the shadowy surroundings. It simply reflects indirect, diffused light from the street.



I think this is what's happening in the Prayer Man pictures. Indirect light makes its way into the tunnel-like entryway, and objects such as half-eaten apples, white bread, glass bottles or camera lens reflect it back more easily, making those objects stand out and appear lighter.

PS: Thanks for the welcomes, Lee and Greg.

[Albert Rossi]

Hello, all -- from another newbie. 

First of all, I must say that this is unequivocally the best JFK Forum I have yet come into contact with, given the sophistication, care, and civility of the ongoing discussion.  Thank you all for that.  I personally will probably not be intervening much as I am here primarily to learn, have nowhere near the command of the testimony that you all do, and wish to avoid injecting jejune, erroneous or banal observations.  As another new member just said, I am not a researcher, though I have had an ongoing, intense interest in this case for the better part of 46 years now.

I would, however, like to ask one question, to Lee.  Earlier on this extremely provocative thread (I know I should read Sean's original posts but I haven't yet), you voiced your opinion to the effect that:

"The longer I have studied this case and the more convinced I have become that Oswald knew nothing whatsoever about the pending assassination of JFK.  I base this upon my suspicions that he was performing low-level informer activities for Jim Hosty and I cannot now comprehend that anybody involved in the assassination mechanics would bring Lee Oswald in to the plot when he was the designated Patsy.  I think his work involved something associated with observing Joe Molina (and as was the case in many situations Joe Molina observing Oswald) and due to Oswald's background I see the information he was possibly gathering being connected to the activities of the CPUSA, GIForum and the ACLU."

To me it makes perfect sense that LHO was meant to keep a lower profile in Dallas than during the previous two months, given the fact that the alarms on him were apparently switched off at FBI just prior to the arrival of the cable from Mexico City. 

What I was wondering:  Do you have any opinion about the story given by an informant of Buddy Walthers' concerning LHO's presence at the Alpha 66 safe house allegedly at 3128 Harlendale during the weeks leading up to the assassination? (correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the source here is Eric Tagg's Brush with History).

Thanks!

Al

[Hasan Yusuf]

Hi Albert. Welcome to the forum. Glad you could join us!

[Albert Rossi]

Thanks Hasan, glad to be here.

BTW I enjoyed your article on CE 163/162 at CTKA.  A fine piece of work.

[Hasan Yusuf]

Thanks very much, Albert. I couldn't have done it without Greg, Lee, and Richard. I look forward to your contributions to the forum.

[GuestGuest]

Albert,

I've cross posted your question onto the House of Cards thread.

I'll do my best to provide some sort of answer tomorrow.  I am quite familiar with the Harlendale story and it certainly feeds into the theory that Oswald did not live at 1026 North Beckley.  It is one of a handful of locations that LHO could have been staying at.

Thanks

Lee

P.S. Great to have you here.  I did read some of your posts elsewhere and maybe one day I'll be intelligent enough to understand many of them.   

You are certainly a scholar and a fantastic addition to Greg's forum.

[Albert Rossi]

Lee,  thanks.  I've been reading your House of Cards thread and anxiously await its next installment.

[beowulf]

For my part i find it difficult to believe that neither the KGB or CIA/FBI  would neglect a polygraph test under the circumstances surrounding his defection to Russia and his return with a Russian spouse.

The FBI or local cops can't force anyone to take a polygraph and in any event the results aren't reliable enough to be admissible in court (that's why Hoover told Johnson, he wouldn't be party to putting a man in the chair based only a polygraph).  The sales pitch cops use on defendants is, we have enough to arrest you and  book you into jail tonight.  But you say you're innocent and since we're fair guys, we'll cut you a break. Take a polygraph, if you pass, you can walk out of here. Seeing as Oswald had a bullseye oh his back for an Espionage Act charge, if the FBI offered him a polygraph to prove he hadn't shared any secrets with Russia and he refused AND then he still wasn't charged?  That's kind of fishy.

The CIA (and of course the KGB) played by a different rulebook.  If they were going to question Oswald, they'd first dose him with Forget Me Nows.
http://arresteddevelopment.wikia.com/wiki/Forget-Me-Now_%28pill%29

[GuestGuest]

Thanks for your reply beowulf. Supreme indifference is the official story,apart from a loan. Perhaps thats why there is a faint whiff of Mackeral.

[ianlloyd]

In "Oswald Leaving TSBD?" EF post 562, Sean Murphy attaches a New York Herald Tribune newspaper article datt theed November 27, 1963. This quote caught my eye:
 
"He was seen carrying a large object wrapped in newspapers, presumably the murder weapon, into the warehouse the morning of the assassination."
 
This may mean nothing, but with all of the contradictory reports and affidavits in the early days that were "refined" to converge on the official story, was this yet another example?
 
PS: Newbie here. I'm not a researcher, just somebody interested who appreciates the great work you guys do. I wanted to pass this observation along to Sean and the EF, but they are not taking new members.

Hi Stan,

Welcome on board.  

I'll pass your observations onto Sean but rest assured he does read this forum too.

I remember my first ever post to the EF and was incredibly nervous as to how I would be received.  Within a week I was accused of being a plant by one of the craziest people I've ever had the misfortune to converse with, got dozens of creepy PM's from the same nut job, brought down the wrath of Jack White, and had to decipher some of the most bizzarre messages I've ever read from David Healy which I guessed at the time were slagging me off.  It was a baptism of fire and things haven't changed since then either.  

Good to have you here

Lee

Apologies if I'm hijacking the thread/forum but I notice on the EF that they are discussing the elevators - I'm sure Sean will be aware but the WC was on to the elevator issue big time. I can't recall now who it was, but one of the commissioners started to put together a sort of "matrix" of the elevator movements.

[GuestGuest]

O

In "Oswald Leaving TSBD?" EF post 562, Sean Murphy attaches a New York Herald Tribune newspaper article datt theed November 27, 1963. This quote caught my eye:
 
"He was seen carrying a large object wrapped in newspapers, presumably the murder weapon, into the warehouse the morning of the assassination."
 
This may mean nothing, but with all of the contradictory reports and affidavits in the early days that were "refined" to converge on the official story, was this yet another example?
 
PS: Newbie here. I'm not a researcher, just somebody interested who appreciates the great work you guys do. I wanted to pass this observation along to Sean and the EF, but they are not taking new members.

Hi Stan,

Welcome on board.  

I'll pass your observations onto Sean but rest assured he does read this forum too.

I remember my first ever post to the EF and was incredibly nervous as to how I would be received.  Within a week I was accused of being a plant by one of the craziest people I've ever had the misfortune to converse with, got dozens of creepy PM's from the same nut job, brought down the wrath of Jack White, and had to decipher some of the most bizzarre messages I've ever read from David Healy which I guessed at the time were slagging me off.  It was a baptism of fire and things haven't changed since then either.  

Good to have you here

Lee

Apologies if I'm hijacking the thread/forum but I notice on the EF that they are discussing the elevators - I'm sure Sean will be aware but the WC was on to the elevator issue big time. I can't recall now who it was, but one of the commissioners started to put together a sort of "matrix" of the elevator movements.

I'd be real interested in seeing that if anybody has a link.

A good essay to read would be Duke Lane's 'Three Blind Mice' if members here are interested.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

The theory I've been outlining on this thread does not require Roy Truly to be 'in' on the conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy.

I'm sure Sean has chosen his words carefully here. This scenario "does not require" Truly being involved, is not the same as Truly "wasn't involved".  

Sean is correct. His scenario doesn't require any involvement from Truly. 

But I am not yet convinced he has it entirely correct.

I think he has made the case that "prayer man" is almost certainly Oswald.

I think he's made the case (well, it has actually been made for a while, but Sean has certainly strengthened it) that the "fix" was a work in progress that can be tracked through various publications and documents.

I think he has made the case that Fritz's notes were copied from the notes of FBI agent Bookhout. And I say that after being in lengthy discussion with Sean some time ago where I maintained they had to be his own notes taken during the interrogations.  

The finer details however are still pretty much up for grabs, imo.  

That he is not saying Truly was definitely not involved shows Sean's pragmatism. 

I can assure everyone of one thing. If Truly was not involved, then the level of coincidences (already at ridiculous levels in this case) just broke through the earth's gravitational pull.

[beowulf]

So Truly cold be involved in...
(a)The conspiracy to murder
(b)The conspiracy to cover up
(c) both
(d) neither
For each conspiracy he's involved in, was his participation voluntary or coerced?

Truly is definitely on board-- via coercion, presumably-- to the coverup. Not sure about the murder (frankly I'm not sure LHO wasn't either, as a lookout). If Truly is on both, its funny how the group motivations involved are at cross purposes. The murder crew doesn't care if people think LHO's a lone gunman-- no such thing as a one man communist conspiracy. On the other hand, that's exactly what the coverup crew wants people to think.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

I doubt coercion was needed to be the "inside man". But it's possible he was only told what he needed to know and once he realised what he'd helped with, he was forced to go along with the cover-up. I really don't know any more about his exact level of of involvement than anyone else.

These are a given:
1. He helped Oswald get the job and lied about needing men.
2. He misled Baker.
3. He sent the cops after Oswald.
4. He lied to government officials and to a President's Commission.
5. The FBI was very familiar with the book depository. 

---------------------
The group motivations are indeed at cross-purposes.


Cuban involvement was, imo, obtained through the false promise of a Cuban invasion.  
 
That was not what the plotters wanted.

[James DiEugenio]

Does everyone agree with Sean, that the hit team in the TSBD escaped using the east elevator while Baker and Truly were going up on the west elevator.

Here's question for RIchard since he probably knows the TSBD building well:

There were 3 elevators right?  Except one of them did not go all the way up.

How many stairways were there?  Even ones that did not go all the way up and down?

[GuestGuest]

Robin Unger Frame

https://2img.net/h/i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/quaneeri/20130908-003704.jpg

Looks like Buell Wesley Frazier on the top step in the middle.

Robin has gone all "Pat Speer" and thinks Prayer Man is a female.  At least Robin's frame has a bit more clarity.

I agree with Sean's conclusion.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Does everyone agree with Sean, that the hit team in the TSBD escaped using the east elevator while Baker and Truly were going up on the west elevator.

Here's question for RIchard since he probably knows the TSBD building well:

There were 3 elevators right?  Except one of them did not go all the way up.

How many stairways were there?  Even ones that did not go all the way up and down?

Jim,

I'll stand corrected because I'm not 100% sure, but I think there was one going all the way up and another which only went a couple of floors.

It seems unanimous amongst workers that the elevators were very noisy... as were the stairs. I posted earlier that staff had been told NOT to use the stairs because they were in such poor condition. 

I also posted earlier about some old newspaper accounts of people escaping crime scenes, escaping fires and effecting rescues - all via sliding down elevator cables. We know Frazier was in the basement where the elevator switches were. We know the elevators were switched off for a short while. It seems to me, if anyone was escaping unheard and unseen via elevator or stairs, then options become very slim - this being one.

[beowulf]

Wow, great catch by Sean in Robin's high-res pic of Prayer Man (aka Lee?) and Frazier.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354&page=42#entry277622

Now THIS, as they say, is actionable intel.
There's one crime that never has a statute of limitation, murder. Dallas DA could have grand jury call Frazier in next week and read him the aggravated perjury statute but note it only applies to what he says now. He's immune from prosecution for any past perjury because of the statute of limitation on that crime at both the state and federal level.

Ask him two questions: Is this you in photo?  Is this Lee Oswald in the photo? Depending on his answers to those, proceed accordingly.

[beowulf]

It seems to me, if anyone was escaping unheard and unseen via elevator or stairs, then options become very slim - this being one.

I reject the assumption anyone was escaping unheard and unseen. It wouldn't be hard for assassins to drop their guns and pull out their badges and walk around the building "looking for clues". After the shooting, there were officers from at least 5 different law enforcement agencies walking around TSBD (Police, Sheriff, FBI, Secret Service, and what's now called ATF), if you had a badge and looked the part, you could blend in before quietly slipping away.

[Hasan Yusuf]

I must say, that does look like Oswald and Frazier to me.

[GuestGuest]

Jim,

As you know, the key document regarding the TSBD layout is WCD 496. It shows that the freight elevators actually opened onto 8 floors (basement & floors 1-7), but the passenger elevator had no opening to the basement and opened only onto floors 1-4.

The NW stairwell, in the rear, went all the way from the basement up to an exit door in the roof. The FBI's 7th-floor diagram contains an error, as Jerry Dealey informed me in 2009. The "ladder to roof" is actually a ladder to a small 4-foot attic, described to me as a utility space for accessing pipes and other stuff. See p. 47 of WCD 496


TSBD clerk Pauline Sanders told the FBI on 11/24 (XXII p. 845) that "the stairwell is in need of repairs and employees had been instructed not to use the stairwell." So, effectively, because of the limited scope of the passenger elevator, floors 5, 6 and 7 were sequestered- available only to warehouse personnel.

The front lobby stairs only went up one flight, to the 2nd-floor offices. There was also another one-flight set of stairs,near the front of the building, that went down from the 1st floor to the basement. See p. 7 of WCD 496

They opened just to the left of the basement conveyor belt. See p. 6 of WCD 4

And I'm pretty sure Wesley Frazier used this set of stairs to go down to the basement for the last 10 minutes of his lunch break.

I'm letting Sean present the whole of his theory before I put in my two cents. He's done a brilliant job and, after all, he might be correct. I've been following it closely and am hanging right now on how he gets Dougherty down those NW stairs after he hears "a rifle shot" (singular); I don't see Sean's rationale for that, not yet.

Robin Unger has done a wonderful job cleaning up those Darnell frames and I have to cast my vote once again for Prayer Man being Lee Oswald; that hairline really shows up well in the cleaned images. And waddyaknow but isn't that Wesley Frazier up there beside Lee. I guess that's one less secret Wesley can take to his grave.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

It seems to me, if anyone was escaping unheard and unseen via elevator or stairs, then options become very slim - this being one.

I reject the assumption anyone was escaping unheard and unseen. It wouldn't be hard for assassins to drop their guns and pull out their badges and walk around the building "looking for clues". After the shooting, there were officers from at least 5 different law enforcement agencies walking around TSBD (Police, Sheriff, FBI, Secret Service, and what's now called ATF), if you had a badge and looked the part, you could blend in before quietly slipping away.

I said options were slim, not non-existent (apart from the elevator cables). This is certainly another possibility. Though they wouldn't be unheard and unseen, they become invisible as suspects.

My intent was to try and find some reason for Buell being in the basement. His various statements give differing answers as to where he usually ate his lunch. That surely could not be a difficult thing to remember. We also know the elevators stopped   during the time Buell was chomping on his sandwiches right next to the switches.

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