"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[Hasan Yusuf]

I want to apologise upfront if this has already been pointed out before, as I don't have the time to thoroughly check it out. On page eight of the following Baylor file appear to be handwritten notes from James Hosty(?) (it looks like the word Fritz has been crossed out). The notes appear to read as follows:

"at noon went to lunch went to 2nd floor to get coke (?) returned to 1st floor to eat lunch, then went outside to watch parade."

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/34233/rec/28

the words "then went outside to watch parade" strongly imply that Oswald was standing outside as the President went by, and NOT after he went by, IMO.

[Goban_Saor]

Thanks, Hasan. I was involved in a discussion, on this thread I think, about the ‘out with Bill Shelley in front’ detail in Fritz’s notes. I said – as had many others before me – this showed Oswald was actually out with Bill Shelley in front at the time of the assassination because he wouldn’t have known Shelley was there unless he (Oswald) were there with him.
 
Other members questioned that reading on the basis that the ‘out with Bill Shelley in front’ detail lacked context and could be a reply to any number of questions.
 
The note you’ve found clearly corresponds to this passage in Fritz’s notes:
 
‘claims 2^nd floor Coke when
off came in
to 1^st floor had lunch
out with Bill Shelley in front’
 
Taken together, these notes confirm that (a) Oswald did claim when interrogated that he was ‘out with Bill Shelley in front’ at the time of the assassination and (b) he was actually ‘out in front’ at that time, else he would not have known Bill Shelley was there.

[StanDane]

MORIARTY: He was the same size and shape and weight as Oswald was? Standing on the stairs.
FRAIZER: Billy was about two feet closer to the situation. Uh, he weighed more. He weighed a little bit. Oswald would be a little bit tall. A little bit more thin….

Speculating here…
 
Many believe that Frazier knows who PM is but won't say anything after all these years. I can understand that. In a recent interview, Frazier said Fritz wanted him to sign a confession as being somehow involved in the assassination of JFK that day. Maybe to get out of that, he was explicitly or implicitly told what the real deal was and to keep his damn mouth shut. He had to see what happened to the Roger Craigs of the world and others who talked over the years. As well as other personal reasons for keeping quiet. And some weeks back, somebody mentioned Gary Mack showing the Blu-ray Darnell Prayer Man still shot to Frazier that clearly shows him standing there, and he wouldn't even identify himself. Nope…don't go there…
 
Just reading what's on this one page, I see a rambling, disarming discussion taking place. Cars, different makes, models, years, colors. I start envisioning going to the drive-in with Betty Lou for a soda. And then it moves over to Billy Lovelady and what jeans he wore and how old he was. Right up to the above exchange.
 
Why would Mo include "standing on the stairs?" in his question to Frazier? The Altgens/Lovelady/Oswald/Doorway issue? Who knows, but I think Frazier was at ease when he said "Billy was about two feet closer to the situation." It's easier to let things slip out when you're at ease. Then he catches himself, and moves on to answer the first part of Mo's question.
 
What's "two feet closer to the situation" when asked about "standing on the stairs." The "situation" may have been what was taking place on the street out in front. Bill Lovelady was closer to that "situation" than was Prayer Man Oswald. And if you look where they are in the Darnell still, Billy looks about two feet or so closer to the street, doesn't he?
 
Anyway, just speculation. It's funny though. As more information trickles out, it only strengthens the notion that Prayer Man is Oswald. Nice find Colin.
 
The Pareto Principle (80/20 rule), says that 20% of a "thing" is vital and 80% is trivial. By focusing on the few important things (20%), you can get 80% of your results.
 
Prayer Man falls into the 20%. Prayer Man's where the money is folks.
 
Sean Murphy knows this well.

[Hasan Yusuf]

Thanks, Hasan. I was involved in a discussion, on this thread I think, about the ‘out with Bill Shelley in front’ detail in Fritz’s notes. I said – as had many others before me – this showed Oswald was actually out with Bill Shelley in front at the time of the assassination because he wouldn’t have known Shelley was there unless he (Oswald) were there with him.
 
Other members questioned that reading on the basis that the ‘out with Bill Shelley in front’ detail lacked context and could be a reply to any number of questions.
 
The note you’ve found clearly corresponds to this passage in Fritz’s notes:
 
‘claims 2^nd floor Coke when
off came in
to 1^st floor had lunch
out with Bill Shelley in front’
 
Taken together, these notes confirm that (a) Oswald did claim when interrogated that he was ‘out with Bill Shelley in front’ at the time of the assassination and (b) he was actually ‘out in front’ at that time, else he would not have known Bill Shelley was there.

Hi Goban,

I totally agree that when taken together, Oswald was telling the "authorities" that he was standing outside when the President was shot. I just hope the notes which I found are not some sort of forgery. I suspect that some LN zealots will be making this claim.

[Frankie Vegas]

I watched a 2008 interview with Frazier and don't really blame him for keeping quiet. I think we all like to think that if we knew something we would come forward, but none of us have been threatened the way he has been.
In the video he goes through the same old story of the events of nov 22 (leaving out the midnight polygraph and his arrest of course). He then blurts out, "I know someone out there knows what happened that day, and I want them to know that I want to keep my family safe"... or something very close to that. I will find an exact quote and link when I can get back on my laptop.

[Hasan Yusuf]

Please do, Frankie. I very much would like to read that quote.

[Frankie Vegas]

"I know there is someone out there who really knows the true story about who did what, and I don't want any harm to come to my family". ~ Buell Wesley Frazier.

http://www.primecollective.com/buell-frazier/

[beowulf]

Hasan, re: Hosty note
There's nothing to indicate its a document declassified by govt. I imagine the written text  is Armstrong's interpretation Hosty's notes (or perhaps Armstrong is actually reading Fritz's notes but is confusedas to authorship).

[StanDane]

"I know there is someone out there who really knows the true story about who did what, and I don't want any harm to come to my family". ~ Buell Wesley Frazier.

http://www.primecollective.com/buell-frazier/

Frazier is a troubled man. I sense it. Something about the way he talks, the way his eyes move.
 
He got hauled in and harassed by the authorities on November 22. He was asked to sign a confession. He didn't know why. But he knew it was bullshit. He held his ground and was freed.
 
The same thing happened to Oswald, a man he worked with, a man who was outside with him when the motorcade passed by. Oswald gets hauled in and doesn't know why. They tried to get Oswald to confess, but he didn't. Oswald, however, wasn't freed like Frazier was. Frazier knows this was bullshit as well.
 
But he can't talk about it. He fears the forces arrayed against him. And for good reason.
 
I really feel for him.

[beowulf]

"Billy was about two feet closer to the situation".
The obvious interpretation is the extension "... than Oswald".
That is indeed a VERY interesting find.

I confess my first thought was Frazier was referring to The Situation, but that hardly seems likely. )
Great catch Colin!

[beowulf]

Also, finally found Gerda Dunckel's Darnell/Couch mashup.
http://www.abload.de/img/darnellcouchsync24fpsa6kkb.gif

[ianlloyd]

Looking at the clip, Baker stops briefly by someone then continues his run with whoever it was he stopped by running behind following him. Is this other person Truly? He would seem to be in the right position.

[Mark A. O'Blazney]

Truly, it looks like Truly, Ian.  I would ask the eyes of Robin Unger to weigh in on this.
Remembering Jack this day.  Am watching his press conferences as this is being typed.
(wipe tear here).  RIP, Mr. President.  Sending my prayers to you and yours.  And blessings to all of you.  Fifty years?  Really?  Oh, Lordy......

[Hasan Yusuf]

Hasan, re: Hosty note
There's nothing to indicate its a document declassified by govt. I imagine the written text  is Armstrong's interpretation Hosty's notes (or perhaps Armstrong is actually reading Fritz's notes but is confusedas to authorship).

Yeah, you could be right, beowulf. I will need to look into it.

[Hasan Yusuf]

"I know there is someone out there who really knows the true story about who did what, and I don't want any harm to come to my family". ~ Buell Wesley Frazier.

http://www.primecollective.com/buell-frazier/

Thanks, Frankie.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Richard Hocking has posted this image at the ed forum and is asking if it is a coke bottle in the corner of the steps or Dr Peppers.

My guess is, it's a Peppers.

[GuestGuest]

[beowulf]

Here's TSBD from street
http://www.flickr.com/photos/54496416@N04/7129323373/

And from vestibule
http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2013_08_01_archive.html

I wonder how tall that white rectangle is (a cinderblock would be 8 inches or 20.3 cm)

[beowulf]

If that is a paper bag...


But like Captain Fritz, Curry seemed perfectly convinced that the chicken was Oswald’s, and on Sunday the FBI agent on the scene, Gordon Shanklin, made it final by informing Fred Powledge of the New York Times that a print of Oswald’s left index finger had been found on the paper bag containing the chicken bone.
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/the_critics/Sauvage/The_Oswald_Affair/Oswald_Affair.html

[StanDane]

Looking at the image Richard Hocking posted at the ED Forum, something caught my eye as being familiar but it took me moment to figure out what it was. The guy behind the cop wearing the hat. His face. It reminded me of Redfern C. Dougherty Jr's picture that Tom Scully turned up a few weeks ago. I see a resemblance here. Just an observation I wanted to share.

[Mark A. O'Blazney]

Dang, Stan, if that ain't Red, then I'm the uncle of a monkey!  Nice one.  Really.

[StanDane]

Dang, Stan, if that ain't Red, then I'm the uncle of a monkey!  Nice one.  Really.

Thanks Mark. But even if it is Redfern, does it mean anything? I'll have to go back see if Tom Scully turned up any bio information on Jack's brother. Oh, the stuff that makes you go "Hmmm"!

[Faroe Islander]

On the Ed forum a member has id´ the bottle as a dr Pepper and a small bag, and even a photo of a police officer with the bottle and bag in his hand standing beside a officer with a 4 feet paper bag.
This is almost evidence that LHO was in front, can we waterboard BWF to get him to tell who PM is ?

[ianlloyd]

Personally, I'm not convinced it's a bag...looks to me like part of the bottle label that someone's peeled off...

[Ed.Ledoux]

Yeah its a bag. It starts below any 'label' and is folded at the top, appears much to large to be a label. Besides all the labels were painted.

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