"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[Faroe Islander]

On the ed forum which this thread is named after there are 2 pictures showing the bottle and a little bag, it is a Dr Pepper,if there is any connection between this bag f.x. timestamped photos and LHO prints then we have LHO in this doorway.
Are there any good pictures of the other small bag with chicken,taken before or after this bag was found ?

[Frankie Vegas]

I think I mentioned it before, but it might be worth bringing up again. With the chicken bones and and soda bottle found on the 6th floor there was an empty pack of cigarettes. In the reports I have read they put the cigarette pack with the lunch leavings and make it sound like they were all together. Lee Oswald, obviously, was a non smoker.
I know they pinned the lunch on someone else who was up there pretty close to the time. Bonnie Ray Williams?
I wonder if there were any butts, and if they were kept in evidence.
They could still hold DNA and might not even match Williams.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

According to HSCA interview with Norman or Jarman (forget which). Williams bought his lunch that day from the catering van which cam around mid morning.

According to Shelley's WC testimony, the lunch remnants belonged to Givens from that morning (about 9:30)

Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody eating fried chicken on that floor that morning? 
Mr. SHELLEY - At one time I think I said I did but Charles Givens was the guy that was eating and he was further on over toward the west side and he was eating a sandwich so he says.
Mr. BALL - Now you say that you thought that you had seen someone had eaten fried chicken that morning?
Mr. SHELLEY - I thought I had; those colored boys are always eating chicken.
Mr. BALL - Do you think you did or do you know?
Mr. SHELLEY - I asked Charles Givens whether it was him that was eating and he said it was a sandwich.
Mr. BALL - Was that before you went down for lunch?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; it was pretty early in the morning, about 9:30. 
Mr. BALL - Where was it?
Mr. SHELLEY - It was two-thirds across the building toward the west because I didn't put plywood over there and he didn't get too far from where we were actually working.

[Ed.Ledoux]

Yes the "bone-in" chicken sandwich of Williams is hilarious.
Good idea on the DNA evidence Frankie!
Another nail in Henry Wades coffin if the evidence is extant!!!

[Frankie Vegas]

Ah, Givens. Thanks, Greg.
I'm rustier than I thought.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Ah, Givens. Thanks, Greg.
I'm rustier than I thought.

If you go to that part Shelley's testimony, you'll see Ball changes subject quicker a than fire through a gas line.

[beowulf]

If the govt managed to lose Kennedy's brain, I'm skeptical it kept cigarette butts left at the crime scene. )

[Colin_Crow]

I am suspicious of the whole chicken lunch story offered by the WC. I think Norman claims in the HSCA that Williams bought his chicken (and Fritos?) from the lunch truck. Williams is certain he brought his lunch from home. I think Frazier's HSCA interview reveals the lunch truck arrived around mid morning. I wonder if it was Givens who went to the truck around 9.30 to buy the chicken. 

As for the cigarette packet, we know that Givens was a smoker, I wonder if the empty packet of Winstons was his. Maybe he bought a new packet of smokes from the truck. Later this empty packet might have provided inspiration to the WC staff for the bogus "cigarette trip".

[Albert Rossi]

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/gallery/Personal-album-of-Albert-Rossi/11-24-2013doorwayTSBD_me-pic_30.htm

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/gallery/Personal-album-of-Albert-Rossi/11-24-2013doorwayTSBD_me-pic_31.htm

Too tempting not to do this, even though it's not the same as on 11/22/1963.  I did it twice, but the first one didn't come out (someone else was taking the picture).  Somehow I moved a bit.  Should have been a little closer to the wall. Oh well ...


I'm 5' 8", by the way.

[beowulf]

Too tempting not to do this, even though it's not the same as on 11/22/1963. 

I'll say! In my theory you're under the storm drain with your spotter.
)

[greg_parkerAdmin]

I see the PM thread has been successfully hijacked by the latest Harvey & Lee shill. It wouldn't have taken Jack White 2,910,445 pages to do it. 

Hopefully Sean can regain control and resume normal transmission.

Until then, here is another of my early efforts to defeat the 2nd Floor Lunch Room Monster.
http://www.reopenkennedycase.net/parker-3.html

[beowulf]

Maybe Geraldine Reid saw Lee and Jeraldean Reid saw Harvey.
/solved

I hope Sean keeps plugging away. I forget honestly where he left off before we got sidetracked by the Dr Pepper bottle. While interesting, the empty bottle doesn't really prove anything. The suspect pool for a TSBD litterbug is pretty deep.

[Faroe Islander]

this is the most important topic I have ever seen on this forum, with the testemony of several TSBD employees saying that LHO was indeed on the first floor and even Caroline Arnold ( ? ) saying she saw LHO just inside the place Prayor man is standing at 12:15. and even having Chief Curry saying so in the evening and also Harry Holmes saying the same.
I´m very shure that many of the witnesses did not need external pressure to adapt, when they "found out " that Oswald was the killer they adaptet their story accordingly, we all see these adaptations every now and then, that it is not good for you if you give the assasin a alibi.
WC selektive picking of witnesses suggest that they wanted to pin it on somebody fast, to get this case out of the wourld and they maneged fine in doing so.
Also I find it very strange that Ruth Payne never has been interviewed about what she translated in her own house when detectives first came to her house, and even more strange that the "killer" of the president´s wife is being interviewed and the translator is a unknown man and the man is not even a translator, and Ruth is also at the interview, first when FBI takes a translator to the interviews we see some of the lyes the first translator has come with, I´m very sure of that when Det. Rose said Marina was shocked when there was no rifle in the carpet, she was told that there was a rifle by Ruth there was never a rifle in the Paynes house, and also Michael Payne beeing there right away.
I dont like talking about altering films but I have a suspicion around the two films showing the doorway where several frames are missing on one film and 1 or 2 one the next is because the case of Lovelady was being processed, when were these two films given to the FBI ?
Also there is  a photo of the TSBD showing the 6 floor windows but FBI managed to spill coffee on the 6. floor window where Oswald was shooting from some seconds earlyer, these are only some of the insane coincedents that this case has.

[GuestGuest]

Bear in mind that we have certain footage of the TSBD exterior perhaps going astray post-assassination if we place any sort of faith in the testimony of Howard Leslie Brennan:

Mr. BELIN. Now, are these accurate or approximate locations, Mr. Brennan? 
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, don't you have photographs of me talking to the Secret Service men right here? 
Mr. BELIN. I don't believe so. 
Mr. BRENNAN. You should have. It was on television before I got home my wife saw it. 
Mr. BELIN. On television? 
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. 
Mr. BELIN. At this time we do not have them. 
Do you remember what station they were on television? 
Mr. BRENNAN. No. But they had it. And I called I believe Mr. Lish who requested that he cut those films or get them cut of the FBI. I believe you might know about them. Somebody cut those films, because a number of times later the same films were shown, and that part was cut. 
Mr. BELIN. Who would Mr. Lish be with? 
Mr. BRENNAN. The FBI. 
Mr. BELIN. All right. 
We thank you very much for that information. 

[Faroe Islander]

I did a google search of mr Lish and came up with Lish Whitson section chief of counterintelligence ? of the FBI.

[James DiEugenio]

If that is LHO, and it looks more and more as if it is, and that is his Dr. Pepper and his lunch pouch, does it not follow then that Wesley Frazier and his sister lied their heads off from the beginning about almost everything?

[Albert Rossi]

It would seem that way.  There is just one strangeness about this matter for me:  they were both adamant about the length of the paper wrapping and never changed that story.  It's funny on how they both agree almost to the inch on a length which ends up being a liability to the official story.

[beowulf]

It's funny on how they both agree almost to the inch on a length which ends up being a liability to the official story

Not really, if Frazier and his sister agreed on a story (if only to get Captain Fritz off his back, I've never thought Frazier had prior knowledge), once its on the record neither can budge an inch off it without contradicting the other's statement. This would not be a nice thing to do to a sibling in a criminal matter.

[Albert Rossi]

Well I'm not sure.  If they agreed once, they could agree again, no? 

I don't recall what the affidavit-to-testimony trail is on this, but were they not questioned by FBI and/or WC as well (I seem to recall them being shown a mock-up wrapper)?  Under pressure, something like, "we thought it was this size, but it could have been larger, we could be mistaken", would have been possible, no?

I don't know -- have never really known -- precisely what to make of these two. Certainly they may have been pressured to cooperate; is there more to it?  The whole curtain-rods/paper bag story has so many inconsistencies and improbabilities, but this particular "consistency" just seems strange if it was a complete fabrication.

[Marlene Zenker]

this is the most important topic I have ever seen on this forum, with the testemony of several TSBD employees saying that LHO was indeed on the first floor and even Caroline Arnold ( ? ) saying she saw LHO just inside the place Prayor man is standing at 12:15. and even having Chief Curry saying so in the evening and also Harry Holmes saying the same.
I´m very shure that many of the witnesses did not need external pressure to adapt, when they "found out " that Oswald was the killer they adaptet their story accordingly, we all see these adaptations every now and then, that it is not good for you if you give the assasin a alibi.
WC selektive picking of witnesses suggest that they wanted to pin it on somebody fast, to get this case out of the wourld and they maneged fine in doing so.
Also I find it very strange that Ruth Payne never has been interviewed about what she translated in her own house when detectives first came to her house, and even more strange that the "killer" of the president´s wife is being interviewed and the translator is a unknown man and the man is not even a translator, and Ruth is also at the interview, first when FBI takes a translator to the interviews we see some of the lyes the first translator has come with, I´m very sure of that when Det. Rose said Marina was shocked when there was no rifle in the carpet, she was told that there was a rifle by Ruth there was never a rifle in the Paynes house, and also Michael Payne beeing there right away.
I dont like talking about altering films but I have a suspicion around the two films showing the doorway where several frames are missing on one film and 1 or 2 one the next is because the case of Lovelady was being processed, when were these two films given to the FBI ?
Also there is  a photo of the TSBD showing the 6 floor windows but FBI managed to spill coffee on the 6. floor window where Oswald was shooting from some seconds earlyer, these are only some of the insane coincedents that this case has.

Just for the record Arnold "thought she caught a fleeting glimpse of LHO standing in the hallway between the front door and the double doors leading to the warehouse, located on the first floor...a few minutes before 12:15PM." 

[Faroe Islander]

Yeh but Arnold was not called to testify before the WC !!

[Faroe Islander]

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=32&pos=15
whe was this photo made and who made it ? is it Robin Unger 
It is showing the Prayer Man position and saying that you can not see the PM if he was standing here,

[Faroe Islander]

(47) Lyndon B. Johnson: He would have been hit three times.

(48) J. Edgar Hoover: He would have been hit three times from the fifth floor of that building where we found the gun and the wrapping paper in which the gun was wrapped... and upon which we found the full fingerprints of this man Oswald. On that floor we found the three empty shells that had been fired and one shell that had not been fired... He then threw the gun aside and came down. At the entrance of the building, he was stopped by a police officer and some manager in
the building told the police officer, "Well, he's all right. He works there. You needn't hold him." They let him go... And then he got on a bus... He went out to his home and got ahold of a jacket.... and he came back downtown... and the police officer who was killed stopped him, not knowing'who he was and not knowing whether he was the man, but just on suspicion. And he fired, of course, and killed the police officer. Then he walked.

(49) Lyndon B. Johnson: You can prove that?

(50) J. Edgar Hoover: Oh, yes, oh, yes, we can prove that. Then he walked about another two blocks and went to the theater5 and the woman at the theater window selling the tickets,6 she was so suspicious the way he was acting, she said he was carrying a gun... He went into the theater and she notified the police and the police and our man down there went in there and located this particular man. They had quite a struggle with him. He fought like a regular lion and he had to be subdued, of course, and was then brought out and... taken to the police headquarters....


transcript from dictabelt telephone recordings of President LBJ and JEHoover on 29 November 

[ianlloyd]

It would seem that way.  There is just one strangeness about this matter for me:  they were both adamant about the length of the paper wrapping and never changed that story.  It's funny on how they both agree almost to the inch on a length which ends up being a liability to the official story.

IIRC, Linnie Mae initially said that she thought that the bag was about 3' long - somewhat longer than BWF's 27" or so. Might be in her very first affidavit?

[GuestGuest]

It would seem that way.  There is just one strangeness about this matter for me:  they were both adamant about the length of the paper wrapping and never changed that story.  It's funny on how they both agree almost to the inch on a length which ends up being a liability to the official story.

IIRC, Linnie Mae initially said that she thought that the bag was about 3' long - somewhat longer than BWF's 27" or so. Might be in her very first affidavit?

No, the 36" long bag claim attributed to Linnie Mae Randle was in an FBI report written by SA James W. Bookhout on 23/11/63. These "reports" from the FBI do not really count as evidence, and they are most definitely not statements or affidavits. They were written following FBI interviews with witnesses, and, in the odd case, it is highly suspect if an interview actually took place prior to the writing of the report.

These reports are written in the third person (ie. the witness stated to me that she saw....), they are unsigned, and it is likely that the subjects of these reports never saw the report or had the opportunity to correct anything in them they felt to be untrue.

The only real purpose these FBI reports served was duping the unwary public, such as yourself. I have posted it below. Tell me if you think this is a signed statement or affidavit.

FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
Date 11/23/63
LINNIE MAE RANDLE, 2439 West Fifth Street, Irving, Texas, phone Blackburn 3-8965, was interviewed at the Dallas Police Department.
RANDLE advised that she is the sister of BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER, who is employed by the Texas School Book Depository and resides at her residence, stated that she met LEE HARVEY OSWALD through her brother, and has known OSWALD and his wife for about six weeks. RANDLE advised that OSWALD's wife is MARINA OSWALD, who resides at 2515 W. Fifth, Irving, Texas, and that OSWALD spends the weekends with his wife at the above mentioned address. Her brother, WESLEY FRAZIER, customarily drives LEE HARVEY OSWALD to 2515 West Fifth, Irving, Texas, on Friday night, and takes him back to work on Monday morning. He stated that OSWALD is also employed at the Texas School Book Depository.
On the night of November 21, 1963, she observed FRAZIER letting LEE HARVEY OSWALD out of FRAZIER's car at 2515 West Fifth. Subsequently, she asked FRAZIER why OSWALD was visiting his wife on Thursday evening, as he usually did not visit her until Friday evening each week. FRAZIER told her that OSWALD claimed he was visiting his wife the night of November 21, 1963, because he is fixing up his apartment and RUTH PAINE, with whom his wife resides at 2515 West Fifth, Irving, was going to give him some curtain rods.
RANDLE stated that about 7:15 a.m., November 22, 1963, she looked out of a window of her residence and observed LEE HARVEY OSWALD walking up her driveway and saw him put a long brown package, approximately 3 feet by 6 inches, in the back seat area of WESLEY FRAZIER's 1954 black Chevrolet four door automobile. Thereafter, she observed OSWALD walk to the front, or entrance area, of her residence where he waited for FRAZIER to come out of the house and give him a ride to work.
RANDLE stated while at the Dallas Police Department on the evening of November 22, 1963, officers of the Dallas Police Department had exhibited to her some brown package paper, however she had not been able to positively identify it as being identical with the above-mentioned brown package, due to the fact she had only observed the brown package from her residence window at a distance.
on 11/22/63 at Dallas, Texas File # DL 89-43
by Special Agent JAMES W. BOOKHOUT/cah/tjd
Date dictated 11/23/63

[Sponsored content]