"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[Frankie Vegas]

I don't think Prayer Man is holding anything. To me (and my law student) it looks like he is talking to the man across from him, the white part looks like his hand, and I think he looks like he is gesturing to the man he is speaking to. 
Just my 2 cents. Great thread all, pleasure reading it!

[GuestGuest]

The Dallas Morning News, November 23, 1963 stated:
 
“Jack C. Cason, president of the depository said the sixth floor was used solely as a ‘dead storage’ area.  It was stacked about eight feet high with books.


Cason, who left the scene about 30 minutes before the President’s caravan rode down Main Street, a block away, said the firm often had difficulty finding employees who had fallen asleep amidst the stacks of books.


Sometimes it will be three or four days without anybody going up to the sixth floor to get anything.’ Cason said.


He said the ‘dead storage’ area was used to keep books already stocked in the basement and on the second and fourth floors.  Only when they run out of copies there does anybody generally go to the sixth floor.”

[greg_parkerAdmin]

The Dallas Morning News, November 23, 1963 stated:
 
“Jack C. Cason, president of the depository said the sixth floor was used solely as a ‘dead storage’ area.  It was stacked about eight feet high with books.


Cason, who left the scene about 30 minutes before the President’s caravan rode down Main Street, a block away, said the firm often had difficulty finding employees who had fallen asleep amidst the stacks of books.


Sometimes it will be three or four days without anybody going up to the sixth floor to get anything.’ Cason said.


He said the ‘dead storage’ area was used to keep books already stocked in the basement and on the second and fourth floors.  Only when they run out of copies there does anybody generally go to the sixth floor.”

Must have been that special third or fourth day that day...

[GuestGuest]

Greg,

I don't think any data for a typical order-filling regime is available. Meaning any typical timeline would be entirely arbitrary.

Truly described orders as varying from $3-4 to $300-400. He detailed (III pp. 215-216) that the 1st floor & basement held bin stock (aka shelf stock) and the 5th, 6th and part of the 7th held overflow stock (aka reserve stock). "...the boys have to go to those floors all during the day to pick up stock and bring it to the 1st floor ... We have a large quantity of (Scott, Foresman) books on the 6th floor ... (Oswald) had occasion to go to the 6th floor quite a number of times every day ... all of our boys, all of our order fillers have worked at some time or other on (Scott, Foresman) ..."

If I remember correctly, even Wesley Frazier went up to the 6th around 10:00 AM on the 22nd.

***

The problem with Dougherty's contention that he was "getting stock" off the 6th & 5th is that it reeks of an alibi:

VI, p. 377

BALL: And how long were you on the 6th floor?
DOUGHERTY: Well, just long enough to get some stock.
BALL: Where did you go then?
DOUGHERTY: I went to the 5th floor.
BALL: What did you do then?
DOUGHERTY: Well, I went to the 5th floor to get some stock also on the 5th floor...

p. 380

BALL: Where did you take that- to what floor?
DOUGHERTY: I took it up to the 6th floor.
BALL: Then what did you do?
DOUGHERTY: Well, when I got through getting stock off of the 6th floor, I came back down to the 5th floor.
BALL: What did you do on the 5th floor?
DOUGHERTY: Well, I got some stock...

Naturally, Ball never probed as to just what Dougherty may have seen while on the 6th floor.

***

Now, Sean has Dougherty spotting a rifle while up on the 6th. He beats a retreat to the 5th. While about 10 feet from the west elevator (as he'd stated to the FBI March 18) he hears a loud shot/explosion (singular), and immediately runs down the noisy stairwell.

It's not specified, but I'm assuming that Sean has Dougherty taking the west elevator back to the 6th & 5th after his early lunch. The noisy west elevator. And so the snipers, upon hearing his arrival, simply tell him to "Get lost"?? And Dougherty, to make himself scarce, retreats only to the 5th?? And, he closes the elevator gates behind him (a circumstance which Truly & Baker soon utilize to take the west elevator up)??

I'm quite skeptical of this scenario.

Dougherty's proximity to the 6th-floor hit team- immediately before the hit- and his obfuscation as regards his true activities/movements on the 6th- speak to me of complicity. Of an in-house conspirator assisting the hit team with their vital escape method. How else would strangers on the 6th floor know- and be depended upon, in the heat of the moment- that both gates must be closed for the elevators to move? The inner 3/4 gate (4-foot high) and the outer full-size gate, that rolled down from its overhead holder. Providing the hit team with an escort would ease the mechanics of their escape.

[beowulf]

The noisy west elevator. And so the snipers, upon hearing his arrival, simply tell him to "Get lost"??

If they flashed him these, then yes.
http://www.yourprops.com/movieprops/original/yp4fc63bff8a7f30.46967395/O-Hara-U-S-Treasury-USSS-badge-and-credentials-1.jpg

[GuestGuest]

The noisy west elevator. And so the snipers, upon hearing his arrival, simply tell him to "Get lost"??

If they flashed him these, then yes.
http://www.yourprops.com/movieprops/original/yp4fc63bff8a7f30.46967395/O-Hara-U-S-Treasury-USSS-badge-and-credentials-1.jpg

Exactly. If the Army Intelligence people who normally supplemented the SS protection, were on the job, they would have been up in that building to see about the open windows. They could have easily threatened anyone they saw there, with arrest. I don't see the problem with their getting in and out of the building as long as they had those credentials. And in fact they were seen by police shortly after the shooting

[James DiEugenio]

My respect for Sean grows daily.  To put up with what he has put up with is extraordinary.

And not just from nay sayers like Ray Baby.  But now with Kelly and Speer.

Prayer Man is a woman?

I will say this: Sean has thought this thing out all the way through.  He really understands the issue thoroughly.

[Frankie Vegas]

Regarding the chicken bones found on the sixth floor, this is what Dallas Morning news reporter Jim Ewell told Larry Sneed:
 
"Meanwhile Jerry Hill worked his way up to the sixth floor, leaned out an open window, and he had what was thought to be Oswald’s little fried chicken lunch. It was in a little pop box. Jerry was holding that box and holding up one of the chicken bones exclaiming to everybody that listened to him down on the street that the fried chicken was what he had been eating."

**I can't figure out how to get out of this quote box. **

Sorry for just butting into this thread willy nilly. It's a great read. 
In Thomas G Buchanan's book, 'Who Killed Kennedy?' page 98. 

"An additional point, thus far totally neglected in press speculations, is, however more conclusive: With the remnants of fried chicken and the empty bottle, the police reported they had found an empty package of cigarettes. I quote now from Time magazine, December 6: "Oswald was driven by a storm of black compulsions.  ... A non smoker and teetotaller, he flew into rages when his wife lit a cigarette.""

[Frankie Vegas]

As for how honest and trustworthy Wade and his cops were. Watkins is now looking into 250 wrongful conviction cases. They have already exonerated 19 innocent men. 
Wade wasn't out on the streets getting this 'evidence' himself so I assume he had a group of men within the DPD that he trusted to fix up evidence and testimony if it didn't fit the case they were trying to bring. I think we can safely assume that this happened in Lee Oswald's case. 
If we look back over the cases of the men who are exonerated we might even find who these dodgy coppers were. 
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-07-29-2653195694_x.htm

[GuestGuest]

Because the Warren Commission didn't believe Victoria Adams when she said she ran for the back stairs immediately after the shots, it was able to perpetuate the myth that Oswald escaped down the stairwell. She should have encountered him, they maintained, had her time estimate been correct- but she saw no one.

The Commission continued to perpetuate the myth of Oswald's flight, despite its lead counsel, Lee Rankin, receiving a letter from the US Attorney's Office in Dallas, which corroborated Adams' time estimate. Dated June 2, 1964, the letter stated that "Miss Garner, Miss Adams' supervisor, stated this morning that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner) saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up."

It is highly likely that Garner made this statement right in the US Attorney's Office on June 2nd.

She didn't say she saw Truly & Baker "get off" or "arrive" , since, had Truly & Baker just arrived via the west elevator, Garner- strictly speaking- wouldn't have known whether they'd been ascending or descending. In the context of Adams having just used the stairs to go down, I find no other interpretation than that Truly & Baker used the same stairs to thereby come up. Had they arrived via a different method, it would have been specified.

Readers of The Girl on the Stairs learn that Barry Ernest discovered this Martha Joe Stroud document in the National Archives- not in files concerning Victoria Adams, not in Lee Rankin's working papers- but in a box of 1964 papers from the US Attorney's Office in Dallas.

Lee Rankin and the WC buried this unfavorable information- because it destroyed the myth of Oswald's stairway escape, by corroborating Adams' time estimate.

And it corroborates the lunchroom incident. Because there is no physically possible way for Truly & Baker not to intersect Adams & Styles, unless Truly & Baker were in the lunchroom.

The Stroud document is what made me realize that the lunchroom incident happened, in real time. This after a solid year of believing the research that said it didn't happen.

With all due respect.

[GuestGuest]

Richard and other members,

Ever got your paws on a copy of this?

AGENCY INFORMATION
AGENCY : SSCIA
RECORD NUMBER : 157-10008-10062
DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : WARREN COMMISSION
FROM : REDLICH, NORMAN
TO : BALL, BELIN, CRAIG
TITLE : MEMORANDUM
DATE : 03/25/1964
PAGES : 3
DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
SUBJECTS : THE MYSTERY OF THE WEST ELEVATOR; MEMO AS RESULT OF DISCUSSION BETWEEN BOLIN [SIC] AND REDLICH; REFERENCE TO TRULY,  ROY TESTIMONY
CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED
RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL
CURRENT STATUS : OPEN
DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 02/24/1994
COMMENTS : BOX 466-9

[GuestGuest]

Lee,

Have you ever looked through that document? I'm shocked to learn it even exists. I'm going to go on with a post I was composing in the meanwhile... somewhat related ...

The freight elevators were mentioned only in Truly's 11/23 DPD affidavit. They weren't mentioned in his 11/22 FBI statement, nor in any newspaper stories. They weren't mentioned again until his March testimony. And because mention of them was avoided, when Truly recounted his actions inside the TSBD, "immediately" taking the "stairs to the 2nd floor" gets construed, in hindsight, with him taking the lobby stairs up with Baker.

The pregnant fact, amidst all these recountings, is that the two freight elevators are up on the 5th while Truly & Baker are running around downstairs. This was successfully kept out of the media.

11/22 FBI statement: "... he accompanied the officer into the front of the building. They saw no one there and he accompanied the officer immediately up the stairs to the second floor of the building, where the officer noticed..."

11/23 DPD affidavit: "...The officer and I went through the shipping department to the freight elevator. We then started up the stairway. We hit the second floor landing, the officer stuck his head...'

FBI teletype, early hours 11/23: "...immediately accompanied a police officer into the building and up the stairs to the second floor, where they observed..."

NY Herald Tribune, 11/27: "...He thought the shooting came from the roof and we ran up the stairway. On the second floor he stuck his head into a snack bar...

Washington Post, 12/1: "...The two men scrambled up the stairs to the second floor. As they made their way to a back stairway, the policeman saw Oswald..."

As regards the NY Times story 11/24 that reported "The first officer to reach the six-story building, Lieut. Curry said, found Oswald among other persons in a lunchroom..."

This got repeated in a 12/10 FBI report: Oswald wasn't questioned at the time as Mr. Truly identified him and other individuals as employees."

I would speculate that whomever the source (Curry or Truly) he tried to paint Oswald as devious & clever enough to mingle in with the usual lunch crowd just after his murderous act.

[Frankie Vegas]

Hopefully this research on Prayer Man will get fleshed out, tidied up and have a press release before Nov 22.
If it gets sent out to all media with a list of big names behind it, it could really gain some traction.

[GuestGuest]

Pat "im right and thats that!" has spoken! Why do i keep thinking about Sweeney Todd's razor rather than Occams.

[James DiEugenio]

First Speer say its a woman, then he says its a black man?

Well Von Pein and Retizes are there now. Will Paul May be next.

And will this encourage authors to talk about their works there?

[GuestGuest]

It's a women? It's a black man? Someone has an agenda here, please.

[Frankie Vegas]

Prayer Man is blatantly a white male. Anyone who says otherwise is being purposely deceitful or desperately needs medical attention for their eyes.

[Colin_Crow]

Richard and other members,

Ever got your paws on a copy of this?

AGENCY INFORMATION
AGENCY : SSCIA
RECORD NUMBER : 157-10008-10062
DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : WARREN COMMISSION
FROM : REDLICH, NORMAN
TO : BALL, BELIN, CRAIG
TITLE : MEMORANDUM
DATE : 03/25/1964
PAGES : 3
DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
SUBJECTS : THE MYSTERY OF THE WEST ELEVATOR; MEMO AS RESULT OF DISCUSSION BETWEEN BOLIN [SIC] AND REDLICH; REFERENCE TO TRULY,  ROY TESTIMONY
CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED
RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL
CURRENT STATUS : OPEN
DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 02/24/1994
COMMENTS : BOX 466-9

Lee, I wonder if this refers to the mystery of how the west elevator disappeared by the time they got to the 5th floor. Truly mentioned he noticed it missing when they got there. Is this when the Jack Dougherty testimony become essential to close that option for an escape by unknown assassin(s)?

See my post in the Jack Dougherty thread for an analysis of his testimony.

[GuestGuest]

Richard,

No I haven't seen the content of the memo but after searching the NARA database I believe there are documents available that could shed more light on this. I may make a request for this document and a couple of others that I have my eye on.  

Colin,

That is probably what it is discussing and it may prove enlightening if we can get a copy.  These staff memos have given us much information in the past.  Some of the lower lever lawyers working for the Warren Commission were certainly identifying the correct leads only to have the more senior lawyers close them down.

I'll check your thread out at the other forum once I've taken my Prozac and beta-blockers.  It is the worst JFK site on the Internet and only has a few shining lights such as yourself making rational and interesting contributions.  95% of the words written over there by 95% of the members would have best been spent on a cookery or DIY website.  Utter ball-bags.

[Colin_Crow]

Richard,

No I haven't seen the content of the memo but after searching the NARA database I believe there are documents available that could shed more light on this. I may make a request for this document and a couple of others that I have my eye on.  

Colin,

That is probably what it is discussing and it may prove enlightening if we can get a copy.  These staff memos have given us much information in the past.  Some of the lower lever lawyers working for the Warren Commission were certainly identifying the correct leads only to have the more senior lawyers close them down.

I'll check your thread out at the other forum once I've taken my Prozac and beta-blockers.  It is the worst JFK site on the Internet and only has a few shining lights such as yourself making rational and interesting contributions.  95% of the words written over there by 95% of the members would have best been spent on a cookery or DIY website.  Utter ball-bags.

Don't worry Lee. There has been more than 100 views and no replies after a day. The mention of an FBI man telling him to find Truly is something I had overlooked before.

[GuestGuest]

That's an excellent breakdown of Dougherty's testimony, Colin. But something that always troubled me, and made me suspicious of him, is that the following excerpts from his November 22 DPD affidavit and from his December 19 FBI interview never got probed by Ball- it concerns his return to the 6th floor just after allegedly speaking with Piper:

I went down to the first floor, and asked a man named Eddie Piper if he heard anything and he said yes, that he had heard three shots. I then went back on the sixth floor.

...and PIPER told him that he had heard three loud noises. He also told him that someone had just shot the President. DOUGHERTY stated that he then went back to the sixth floor. He said that he used the elevator to go up and when he went back up there, there was no one on the sixth floor."

It seems to me that he went over to the sniper's nest then, to be seen by Lillian Mooneyham. [b]Somebody[b]was over there, about 12:34- 12:35. And that when Truly was on his way down from the roof with Baker, about 12:37/38, Dougherty was spotted on the 5th floor by Truly.

He said his "systematic search" for Truly included the discovery of the gun- isn't that 1:22 or thereabouts? He must have missed out on Truly's infamous roll call, circa 12:55 (?). In any event, it seems he would have commenced his systematic search several minutes after 12:37/38. So I can't connect the "FBI man" who asked him to find his building manager with a possible hit team member. Whether he's a deputy sheriff, ATF, or legitimate FBI is not that important a question.

The burning question for me is why is Dougherty on the 6th floor minutes before, and minutes after, the assassination? And this was not probed, not in the least, by the WC.

[Colin_Crow]

Jack's undated statement where he says after talking to Piper he goes back up to the 6th floor. West elevator?

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/01/0130-002.gif

He is seen on the 5th "getting stock" as Truly and Baker are descending from the roof in the east elevator. This would be about 12.37. If he went down in the west elevator after the shots he would reach the 1st floor about 12.32. Going back to 6 maybe by 12.33 or so. A few minutes later he is seen by Truly on 5. Given he was in the east elevator this would place Dougherty in the eastern part of the floor.

Going to check Truly's testimony to check his movements after descending.

[Colin_Crow]

Fritz's testimony


Mr. BALL. While you were there Mr. Truly came up to you? 
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; where the rifle was found. That was about the time we finished Mr. Truly came and told me that one of his employees had left the building, and I asked his name and he gave me his name, Lee Harvey Oswald, and I asked his address and he gave me the Irving address. 
Mr. BALL. This was after the rifle was found? 
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; after the rifle was found. 
Mr. BALL. Another witness has testified that the rifle was found at 1:22 p.m., does that about accord with your figures or your memory? 
Mr. FRITZ. Let's see, I might have that here. I don't think I have that time. 
Mr. BALL. Do you have the time at which the shells were found? 
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't have that time. 


Truly's testimony


Mr. TRULY. So Chief Lumpkin had several officers there that he was talking to, and I assumed that he gave him some instructions of some nature I didn't hear it. And then he turned to me and says, "Now we will go upstairs".
So we got on one of the elevators, I don't know which, and rode up to the sixth floor. I didn't know Captain Fritz was on the sixth floor. And he was over in the northwest corner of the building. 
Mr. BELIN. By the stairs there? 
Mr. TRULY. Yes; by the stairs. 
Mr. BELIN. All right. 
Mr. TRULY. And there were other officers with him. Chief Lumpkin stepped over and told Captain Fritz that I had something that I wanted to tell him. 
Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened 
Mr. TRULY. So Captain Fritz left the men he was with and walked over about 8 or 10 feet and said, "What is it, Mr. Truly," or words to that effect.
And I told him about this boy missing and gave him his address and telephone number and general description. And he says, "Thank you, Mr. Truly. We will take care of it.
And I went back downstairs in a few minutes.
There was a reporter followed me away from that spot, and asked me who Oswald was. I told the reporter, "You must have ears like a bird, or something. I don't want to say anything about a boy I don't know anything about. This is a terrible thing." Or words to that effect.
I said, "Don't bother me. Don't mention the name. Let's find something out."
So I went back downstairs with Chief Lumpkin. 
Mr. BELIN. When you got on the sixth floor, did you happen to go over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor at about that time or not? 
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I sure didn't. 
Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor? 
Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either the rifle or the spent shell cases. It could have been at the time I went up and told them about Lee Harvey Oswald being missing. I cannot remember. But I didn't know it. I didn't see them find them, and I didn't know at the time I don't know how long they had the things. 



Clear as mud. This would mean that Oswald was officially missing after 1.22. Truly thinks before the rifle and shells found.


Also it seems Truly stayed on the first floor except for this one trip to see Fritz on the 6th floor. Note Dougherty says he couldn't find Truly because he was on the 4th floor. This was when Baker and he stopped and talked to Sawyer on the way down from the roof about 12.37. I can find no evidence that Dougherty "searched" on floors where we know there were people in this time frame. Hine, Reid, Molina were all on the second floor by 12.33 or so. Sawyer vacated the 4th floor and went down just after Truly and Baker. I think Williams, Jarman and Norman were down to the entrance by 12.35.


So did Jack go back to work on the 6th and 5th immediately after talking to Piper? Did he perform as search for the FBI? Truly was on the 1st floor by 12.37 so it seems Dougherty went upstairs before then. In fact he did because Truly spotted him on the way down on 5. 

The question is, did Jack really take the west elevator down or did he stay on the 5th or 6th floors?

When did he exactly encounter the "FBI" man.

Why was Dougherty never called by the HSCA? Did those investigators ever read this stuff?

[GuestGuest]

Roy Truly during his second appearance before the Warren Commission in May, 1964, completely contradicts his testimony from his first appearance in March, 1964.  No one bats an eyelid because the lawyers want him to contradict himself:

Mr. BALL. Now, about what time of day would you say is your best estimate that you told Captain Fritz of the name "Lee Oswald" and his address? 
Mr. TRULY. My best estimate would be a little before 1 o'clock--10 minutes. 
Mr. BALL. The gun wasn't found until after 1 o'clock? 
Mr. TRULY. It wasn't found until after 1 o'clock? 
Mr. BALL. No, it wasn't found until after 1 o'clock. I won't tell you exactly the time the gun was found, but I will say that the gun was not found until after 1 o'clock. 
Mr. TRULY. Well, I may be mistaken about where I learned they had found the gun. I thought it was on the sixth floor--it could have been some other place. 
Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz said you didn't tell him that until after the gun was found and that seems to correspond with your memory too, is that correct? 
Mr. TRULY. It sure does, because I remember clearly that Captain Fritz was over at where the gun was found and I'm sure they must have found it or he wouldn't have been standing in that area when we came up there. 
Mr. BALL. Now, if the gun was found after I o'clock, when was it that you discovered that Lee Oswald wasn't there? 
Mr. TRULY. I thought it was about 20 minutes after the shooting--the assassination, but it could have been longer. 
Mr. BALL. In other words, you thought originally it might have been 10 minutes of 2 or so that you learned that? 
Mr. TRULY. Ten minutes to 1. 
Mr. BALL. Ten minutes to 1? 
Mr. TRULY. It was around 1 o'clock--that period of time after I came down from the sixth floor to the first floor was rather hazy in my memory. 
Mr. BALL. You think it might have been after 1 when you first noticed he wasn't there? 
Mr. TRULY. I don't think so---I don't feel like at was. It could have possibly been so. 
Mr. BALL. Well, if the gun was not found before 1:10, if it wasn't found before that, can you give me any estimate? 
Mr. TRULY. That seems to be a longer time after the assassination. 
Mr. BALL. You didn't wait 20 minutes from the time you learned Lee Oswald's address until the time you told Captain Fritz, did you? 
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did stand there on the first floor waiting until Chief Lumpkin got through talking for a few minutes. 
Mr. BALL. Tell me about how many minutes you think it was from the time you obtained the address of Lee Oswald until you told Captain Fritz the name and address? 
Mr. TRULY. I think it was immediately. 
Mr. BALL. Immediately? 
Mr. TRULY. Immediately, after I called to the warehouse and got his name and address in Irving, I turned around and walked over and told Captain Fritz at that time. 
Mr. BALL. Chief Lumpkin? 
Mr. TRULY. Yes; Chief Lumpkin. 
Mr. BALL. Yes; Chief Lumpkin. 
Mr. TRULY. And I remember Chief Lumpkin talking to two or three officers and I stepped back and he went ahead and told them a few things--it could have been 2 or 3 or 4 minutes. 
Mr. BALL. Not over that? 
Mr. TRULY. I don't believe so, and then he came to me and said, "All right, Mr. Truly, let's go up and see Captain Fritz and tell him this." 
Mr. BALL. Then, if the gun wasn't found until after 1:10, you think it might have been as late as 1:05 or so before you discovered that Oswald wasn't there? 
Mr. TRULY. It could be--it could have been. 
Mr. BALL. You have no exact memory as to the time you discovered he was not there? 
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I didn't believe after thinking things over--it was over in 15 or 20 minutes after the shots were fired, but after retracing my trip to the roof and the time delay and back, I would have to say that it was farther along in the day than I had believed, so it could have been 1 or 1:05 or something like that.

[Albert Rossi]

I have to confess that in trying to follow all the alternative analyses of the movements of various personae in and around the TSBD in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, I have become so confused that I can no longer say I understand where anybody was that day.  I have this picture in my mind of all these versions simultaneously superimposed, with the result being a kind of random soup of people rushing up and down stairs and elevators, and bumping into each other (or themselves).

Instead of PBS messing around with single-bullet trajectories, a 3-D simulation of the movements inside the TSBD, with alternative scenarios, at this point would be most helpful.  It might even help demonstrate the contradictions.

Wouldn't want Dale Myers to do it, though.  

In any case, it would be great for those of us who haven't total recall of eyewitness testimony and official reports if someone could expand the timeline posted by Bill Kelly into a comparative one which contrasts the alternate reconstructions offered by Sean, Greg, Lee, Richard, and Colin, accounting for the movements of all these people in and out of the TSBD.  A real task, I realize.

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