"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[ianlloyd]

You are correct, thank you (hence my prefix "IIRC")...

[greg_parkerAdmin]

(47) Lyndon B. Johnson: He would have been hit three times.

(48) J. Edgar Hoover: He would have been hit three times from the fifth floor of that building where we found the gun and the wrapping paper in which the gun was wrapped... and upon which we found the full fingerprints of this man Oswald. On that floor we found the three empty shells that had been fired and one shell that had not been fired... He then threw the gun aside and came down. At the entrance of the building, he was stopped by a police officer and some manager in
the building told the police officer, "Well, he's all right. He works there. You needn't hold him." They let him go... And then he got on a bus... He went out to his home and got ahold of a jacket.... and he came back downtown... and the police officer who was killed stopped him, not knowing'who he was and not knowing whether he was the man, but just on suspicion. And he fired, of course, and killed the police officer. Then he walked.

(49) Lyndon B. Johnson: You can prove that?

(50) J. Edgar Hoover: Oh, yes, oh, yes, we can prove that. Then he walked about another two blocks and went to the theater5 and the woman at the theater window selling the tickets,6 she was so suspicious the way he was acting, she said he was carrying a gun... He went into the theater and she notified the police and the police and our man down there went in there and located this particular man. They had quite a struggle with him. He fought like a regular lion and he had to be subdued, of course, and was then brought out and... taken to the police headquarters....


transcript from dictabelt telephone recordings of President LBJ and JEHoover on 29 November 

Thanks for posting this. It just shows how little you have to worry about when you have the control levers. If this had been some low level thing, the many slip ups such as this one, would have unravelled the whole thing back then.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

FRAZIER told her that OSWALD claimed he was visiting his wife the night of November 21, 1963, because he is fixing up his apartment and RUTH PAINE, with whom his wife resides at 2515 West Fifth, Irving, was going to give him some curtain rods.

The "fixing up the apartment" bit also got nixed after this.

But the story on the whole, makes little sense with or without the fxing up.

Let's say you were Oswald and let's say you actually did want some curtain rods and good ol' Ruthy was offering some. Would you be so desperate to obtain said curtain rods that you would go and pick them up a night earlier than you normally would go there anyway? Wouldn't your average Joe simply wait until his "regular" Friday night visit?

Maybe these rods were gold plated and Ruthy said he had to pick 'em up that night or she'd find some other patsy cool handy-man-about-the house to give them to?  

[GuestGuest]

Randle in her first day affidavit from 11/22 mentioned nothing about the size of the package.

The FBI report made by Bookhout on 11/23 has her claiming the package was 3 foot long by 6 inches wide.  

The Secret Service report from 11/28 has her claiming that the package was "two feet or over in length."

When Bardwell Odum and Gibbon McNeely interview her on 12/2 and perform some reenactments walking from West Fifth Street across Westbrook with some wood in a paper bag they get her to approximately 27 inches.

But let's not be holding Randle up as a paragon of truth here.  Critics have been debating the size of this damn bag for fifty years.  The woman is dodgy beyond words as is her brother.  If Prayer Man is Oswald, the subject of this thread, then Frazier knew he was stood on the steps not six feet away from him during the assassination and we're all supposed to sit here and debate whether the bag that he and his sister claim he had that morning was two and half feet or three and a half feet?  Give me a break.

Let's not forget that during her Secret Service interview Randle decided to go on record claiming that after Oswald had been in Frazier's car he walked around and waved through the kitchen window.  How did she describe this?  She described it a "frightening experience."  Yeah, right.  Similar to Bledsoe claiming that he looked like a "maniac" when she didn't see him on McWatters bus.  What did Randle think he was going to do?  Wave her to death?  

Randle stated that she saw Oswald place the package on the back seat of Frazier's car.  Problem.  She couldn't see him unless she could see through wood and metal because there were slats of wood of the carport in between her and Frazier's car and the door she ultimately claimed Oswald opened, right rear, was furthest away from her. So Randle was instead assuming that he placed it on the back seat. But there was another problem.  She had to change what direction the car was facing when she was reinterviewed on 3/11/64 and the fact that this would change which door she claims she saw Oswald put the package would not be questioned.  

Another thing that would not be questioned until the mid 1970's was how the hell Oswald got in the car in the first place.  Not one person in 1963 or 1964 thought it a reasonable question to ask of Frazier or his sister.  "Did you always lock your car at night Mr. Frazier?"  Frazier's answer to Jack Moriarty of the HSCA was "yes" he always locked his car.  When put on the spot as to how then did Oswald gain access Frazier fumbled around before claiming one of the back doors was broken, which kinda defeated the purpose of locking a car at night.  It also made the massive presumption that Oswald knew the door was broken or was, once again that day, incredibly lucky when he opened that particular door to place his package on the back seat.  This unfortunately was not probed any further by Moriarty.  But Frazier's story, beginning-middle-and end, is a crock of bullshit in my opinion.

Another Randle anomaly that remains in the record is the one that intrigues me the most.  When Linnie Mae Randle's husband Bill Randle was interviewed on 11/23 the FBI report has him claiming something pretty peculiar.  Bill Randle says, according to the report, that his wife (Linnie Mae) worked in the same building as Oswald.  A mistake?  Possibly.  But we also have to take into account that DPD Detective Jack Revill's list of TSBD employees that he had typed up at approximately 3pm the afternoon of the assassination also lists the name of Linnie Mae Randle.  It is handwritten on the bottom with the names Roy Truly, James Jarman, Billy Lovelady and Jack Dougherty and is then crossed out. Coincidence?  Possibly.  But I find it hard to believe that on the hand her name is there in black and white on the list and then her husband claims she worked in the same building.  Two mistakes that corroborate each other from two separate sources by two different investigating parties.  It would be really interesting to eventually find out why Frazier moved to Dallas from Huntsville and why he felt it so important to visit his alcoholic step-father immediately after the assassination when it is quite apparent that he held nothing but disdain for the man would also be interesting to get to the bottom of.

There is more to the Randles and the Fraziers that we'll ever probably know but arguing over the length of the damn paper bag will just take everyone around in circles...

...again.

If Prayer Man is Oswald then then the paper bag is a MacGuffin.

[Albert Rossi]

Sorry, Lee, for re-seeding this debate; it was not my intention to suggest that I believed their stories about the bag.  It was just curious to me that they were not completely obliging in giving answers about this fictitious detail that were in compplete conformity with what the investigation required.  But as you say, the whole issue leads one astray.  I agree with what you write here, and Jim's original comment, that what we have from them is a pack of fabrications.

[GuestGuest]

Sorry, Lee, for re-seeding this debate; it was not my intention to suggest that I believed their stories about the bag.  It was just curious to me that they were not completely obliging in giving answers about this fictitious detail that were in compplete conformity with what the investigation required.  But as you say, the whole issue leads one astray.  I agree with what you write here, and Jim's original comment, that what we have from them is a pack of fabrications.

Albert, 

No apology necessary.  

We all need to bear in mind that Randle very quickly threw this story into the mix that afternoon.  Very early.  She was the one who allegedly got hold of Detectives Adamcik and Rose and told them of her traumatic experience of seeing Oswald that morning with a package.  It was at this point that her own brother, who we need to keep under the microscope at all times, had gone to visit his alcoholic step-father.  What was kept out of the main narrative was that the Irving Police were keen on finding Wesley and his sister only went and sent them to the wrong hospital.  We've never gotten to the bottom of this but I certainly don't believe for a second that this information provided to the Deputies and Detectives was done accidently by Linnie Mae Randle.  Once Frazier was in custody he was treated the same way as Joe Molina was.  Insinuations that he was friendly with the assassin.  Possibility that he could be charged as an accomplice.  And then once he was hooked up to the lie detector I'm pretty much convinced he would have told them his sister was his mother if that's what they wanted to hear.  We do not know if Wesley had been in contact with his sister either face to face or telephonically after the assassination so we don't know whether they both knew that a shit storm was on its way and some form of collusion took place.  Also don't forget Frazier said a few minutes after the assassination he went into the basement to eat his lunch.  The basement!  He then tried to say this was where he always ate his lunch which is a big steaming pile of BS.

Those HSCA tapes of Wesley being interviewed in the 1970's contain some real clues that we probably will never get the opportunity to mine because the quality of them is so bad.  One of them is pretty good and Richard Gilbride did a great job transcribing it but we cannot rely on anything in the transcripts of the others because much of it is so poor it can only be transcribed through complete guesswork but I'm convinced on one of those tapes Frazier tells his interrogators that he believed Oswald was being framed.  If we could get that cassette digitized and some work be put into it then I'm sure he said more than we've ever been told he said.  Why on earth the National Archives would let historical items degrade like this is beyond me.

[Ray Mitcham]

Lee, maybe Frazier went to the basement after the shooting, not to eat his lunch but to turn the power off the elevators?

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Another Randle anomaly that remains in the record is the one that intrigues me the most. When Linnie Mae Randle's husband Bill Randle was interviewed on 11/23 the FBI report has him claiming something pretty peculiar. Bill Randle says, according to the report, that his wife (Linnie Mae) worked in the same building as Oswald. A mistake? Possibly. But we also have to take into account that DPD Detective Jack Revill's list of TSBD employees that he had typed up at approximately 3pm the afternoon of the assassination also lists the name of Linnie Mae Randle. It is handwritten on the bottom with the names Roy Truly, James Jarman, Billy Lovelady and Jack Dougherty and is then crossed out. Coincidence? Possibly. But I find it hard to believe that on the hand her name is there in black and white on the list and then her husband claims she worked in the same building. Two mistakes that corroborate each other from two separate sources by two different investigating parties. It would be really interesting to eventually find out why Frazier moved to Dallas from Huntsville and why he felt it so important to visit his alcoholic step-father immediately after the assassination when it is quite apparent that he held nothing but disdain for the man would also be interesting to get to the bottom of.

There is more to the Randles and the Fraziers that we'll ever probably know but arguing over the length of the damn paper bag will just take everyone around in circles...

...again.

If Prayer Man is Oswald then then the paper bag is a MacGuffin.

Lee, here is the FBI report
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=62273&relPageId=216

It wasn't actually based on an interview with Randle, it was from a report made to the FBI by the husband and wife managers at the Austin Motel where Randle had checked in on the night of Nov 22.

The information that his wife worked at the TSBD was most likely a case of Chinese Whispers... in all likelihood he told the Thompson's that his wife's brother worked at the building, but when they phoned the FBI, either they misremembered, or the FBI misunderstood. In any event - yes - that is how her name got added to the list of employees - and this was just the start of the confusion. Somehow after that, Bill got mistaken for Frazier and when the FBI went looking for the origins of the scope, there were getting companies to check under the names "Oswald" and "Randle".

[Hasan Yusuf]

Another thing about Randle is the following:

Mr. BALL. What was he carrying?

Mrs. RANDLE. He was carrying a package in a sort of a heavy brown bag, heavier than a grocery bag it looked to me. It was about, if I might measure, about this long, I suppose, and he carried it in his right hand, had the top sort of folded down and had a grip like this, and the bottom, he carried it this way, you know, and it almost touched the ground as he carried it.

Mr. BALL. How was Lee dressed that morning?

Mrs. RANDLE. He had on a white T-shirt, I just saw him from the waist up, I didn't pay any attention to his pants or anything, when he was going with the package. I was more interested in that. But he had on a white T-shirt and I remember some sort of brown or tan shirt and he had a gray jacket, I believe.

Question: If Randle only saw him from the waist up, then how could she tell how long the package was, and that it was almost touching the ground? Oh that's right, she couldn't.

[dwdunn(akaDan)]

"I didn't pay any attention to his pants or anything, when he was going with the package. I was more interested in that."

She was keeping her eye on the ball, Hasan; the only explanation ever given for how Oswald got a rifle to his workplace.

[GuestGuest]

Another Randle anomaly that remains in the record is the one that intrigues me the most.  When Linnie Mae Randle's husband Bill Randle was interviewed on 11/23 the FBI report has him claiming something pretty peculiar.  Bill Randle says, according to the report, that his wife (Linnie Mae) worked in the same building as Oswald.  A mistake?  Possibly.  But we also have to take into account that DPD Detective Jack Revill's list of TSBD employees that he had typed up at approximately 3pm the afternoon of the assassination also lists the name of Linnie Mae Randle.  It is handwritten on the bottom with the names Roy Truly, James Jarman, Billy Lovelady and Jack Dougherty and is then crossed out. Coincidence?  Possibly.  But I find it hard to believe that on the hand her name is there in black and white on the list and then her husband claims she worked in the same building.  Two mistakes that corroborate each other from two separate sources by two different investigating parties.  It would be really interesting to eventually find out why Frazier moved to Dallas from Huntsville and why he felt it so important to visit his alcoholic step-father immediately after the assassination when it is quite apparent that he held nothing but disdain for the man would also be interesting to get to the bottom of.

There is more to the Randles and the Fraziers that we'll ever probably know but arguing over the length of the damn paper bag will just take everyone around in circles...

...again.

If Prayer Man is Oswald then then the paper bag is a MacGuffin.

Lee, here is the FBI report
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=62273&relPageId=216

It wasn't actually based on an interview with Randle, it was from a report made to the FBI by the husband and wife managers at the Austin Motel where Randle had checked in on the night of Nov 22.

The information that his wife worked at the TSBD was most likely a case of Chinese Whispers... in all likelihood he told the Thompson's that his wife's brother worked at the building, but when they phoned the FBI, either they misremembered, or the FBI misunderstood. In any event - yes - that is how her name got added to the list of employees - and this was just the start of the confusion. Somehow after that, Bill got mistaken for Frazier and when the FBI went looking for the origins of the scope, there were getting companies to check under the names "Oswald" and "Randle".

We've must have been through this before, Greg, because I'm having déjà vu.  We don't know that is how Randle's name got added to the list do we?  This was the DPD list and while I'm sure the FBI were feeding them information do we seriously believe that Revill would add the name Linnie Mae Randle to the list when the DPD had both of them at City Hall for the majority of the night of the 22nd?  Can't see it myself.  The Thompson information wasn't given until the 23rd was it?  So I'm hard pressed to believe her name would be added with Roy Truly, James Jarman, Billy Lovelady and Jack Dougherty.  

Just do me favour here just for a few minutes...consider something...does the paradigm change at all if she did work at a the TSBD?  If the answer is no then I'll bin it and never mention it again.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

We've must have been through this before, Greg, because I'm having déjà vu. We don't know that is how Randle's name got added to the list do we? This was the DPD list and while I'm sure the FBI were feeding them information do we seriously believe that Revill would add the name Linnie Mae Randle to the list when the DPD had both of them at City Hall for the majority of the night of the 22nd? Can't see it myself. The Thompson information wasn't given until the 23rd was it? So I'm hard pressed to believe her name would be added with Roy Truly, James Jarman, Billy Lovelady and Jack Dougherty.

Just do me favour here just for a few minutes...consider something...does the paradigm change at all if she did work at a the TSBD? If the answer is no then I'll bin it and never mention it again.

Rings a bell now you mention it, Lee. My memory is spaghetti at the moment. But the main reason I picked up on this was not really the claim that she worked there per se - but that you had inadvertently misattributed the FBI interview as being with Randle himself

You're right, though - we don't know for certain how her name got on the list. What I said is just my .025 cents.

And I do also agree that if she did work there, it changes the paradigm significantly...

[GuestGuest]

We've must have been through this before, Greg, because I'm having déjà vu.  We don't know that is how Randle's name got added to the list do we?  This was the DPD list and while I'm sure the FBI were feeding them information do we seriously believe that Revill would add the name Linnie Mae Randle to the list when the DPD had both of them at City Hall for the majority of the night of the 22nd?  Can't see it myself.  The Thompson information wasn't given until the 23rd was it?  So I'm hard pressed to believe her name would be added with Roy Truly, James Jarman, Billy Lovelady and Jack Dougherty.  

Just do me favour here just for a few minutes...consider something...does the paradigm change at all if she did work at a the TSBD?  If the answer is no then I'll bin it and never mention it again.

Rings a bell now you mention it, Lee. My memory is spaghetti at the moment. But the main reason I picked up on this was not really the claim that she worked there per se - but that you had inadvertently misattributed the FBI interview as being with Randle himself

You're right about the report and I remembered as soon as I read your post.  I was shooting from the hip in my post and now clearly recall the Thompson reports.

[Faroe Islander]

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=32&pos=15
whe was this photo made and who made it ? is it Robin Unger 
It is showing the Prayer Man position and saying that you can not see the PM if he was standing here,

Do any of you know when this picture is taken ?
I have been checking pictures in Robin Ungers homepage and found this, I think it shows that whoever took this picture was worried about who was standing here, as it is easy to see in some of the other pictures that someone is standing there, but only now that Gerda Dunkel did some work on these pictures/ film you can see the PM and WBF.

[Hasan Yusuf]

"I didn't pay any attention to his pants or anything, when he was going with the package. I was more interested in that."

She was keeping her eye on the ball, Hasan; the only explanation ever given for how Oswald got a rifle to his workplace.

Hi Dan,


Her whole testimony is a sham. Not that I had to point that out, but I just wanted to say it anyway. I just love how she says she was paying more attention to his shirt than his jacket. Must have been one really cool looking shirt he had on.

[dwdunn(akaDan)]

Some women are suckers for a really nice white t-shirt.

[James DiEugenio]

At DPF someone finally recognized the potentially large importance of Sean's work and that thread.

I think its important not just for the bulletproof alibi it gives Oswald, but for what it tells us about the probable roles of Frazier, his sister and the Paines.

If it turns out that PM really is Oswald, this is one of the new pieces of evidence that should be used for a grand jury to question the Fraziers and the Paines with on that aspect of the case e.g. the setting up of Oswald.

[GuestGuest]

At DPF someone finally recognized the potentially large importance of Sean's work and that thread.

I think its important not just for the bulletproof alibi it gives Oswald, but for what it tells us about the probable roles of Frazier, his sister and the Paines.

If it turns out that PM really is Oswald, this is one of the new pieces of evidence that should be used for a grand jury to question the Fraziers and the Paines with on that aspect of the case e.g. the setting up of Oswald.

The thread seems to have been successfully buried at the Ed. forum. I haven't seen anyone post to it in over 2 weeks, nor have I seen Sean Murphy there in that time. I nominated the thread for "Pinned" status several times at the Ed. forum, to keep it on the front page, and I was met with stony silence each time.

It is hilarious to watch the trolls that reside at the JFK assassination forum doing their damnedest to deny the possibility there is anything unusual about Prayer Man.

[GuestGuest]

At DPF someone finally recognized the potentially large importance of Sean's work and that thread.

I think its important not just for the bulletproof alibi it gives Oswald, but for what it tells us about the probable roles of Frazier, his sister and the Paines.

If it turns out that PM really is Oswald, this is one of the new pieces of evidence that should be used for a grand jury to question the Fraziers and the Paines with on that aspect of the case e.g. the setting up of Oswald.

I read through the DPF thread a few days ago and if you can successfully press the mute button on Albert "I know everything that happened" Doyle then they are covering the evidence pretty well.

I just wish Sean would put this into a paper, article, or something that goes through each stage of the story with all of the evidence outlined.  While it was great to watch him use other people's opinions, thoughts and ideas in his original threads once the thrashing out had been done the other posts just became superfluous noise to anyone trying to follow the new paradigm set by Sean's work through these threads.  So, it now needs to be structured anew, and hopefully Sean's recent disappearance act is due to him actually doing this.  I agree with Greg that Sean must be disappointed that Groden's new witness turned out to be nothing of the sort and Groden needs to hang his head in shame for going on about this for the last God knows how many years.

But in reality Sean does not need "new witnesses" because the old ones are good enough.  Sean comes across as a perfectionist and is a little unsure about his overall work because he hasn't been able to prove it beyond a shadow or a doubt.  But unless he can get someone to do 4k scans of the Darnell and Weigman films he is never going to prove it 100% and even then the information may not exist in the actual films.  But it would be great to see whether it does or whether it doesn't.

[GuestGuest]

Lee, maybe Frazier went to the basement after the shooting, not to eat his lunch but to turn the power off the elevators?

Sorry, Ray, I completely missed your post.

Truth is that we will probably never know why on earth Frazier went down into the basement after the assassination.  No one with the authority to investigate it seemed bothered to find out or perhaps they did and the information went the same way as his polygraph results.

His sister was the one who caught Adamcik and Rose after they had searched Ruth Paine's house and gave them the brown paper bag story.  My guess is at that exact point Frazier became a suspect and the Irving Police and Dallas Police wanted to get him into custody and I think Randle knew this which is why she sent them on a wild goose chase to Parkland hospital looking for him knowing full well that he wasn't there.

I'm still in two minds whether Randle mentioned any package to Adamcik and Rose.

Once you head into the details of the statements and depositions of Randle and Frazier you begin to see small details not matching that affect the whole story in its early phases.  The original story is that Randle and Frazier's mother saw Oswald looking through the window and asked "who is that" to which Frazier replied "that's Lee."  No mention of Randle opening the kitchen door and watching a suspiciously behaving Oswald place a bag in Frazier's car.  If this happened then it certainly wasn't memorable enough for Randle to mention to Frazier at the time it happened or memorable enough for Frazier to see it and remember it happening.

So instead we are asked to believe a combination of the later statements.  That Randle sees Oswald walking across Westbrook, she said she didn't recognise him in one interview but claims he is carrying a package, she sees him cut across their house in front of her kitchen window.  She turns and opens the kitchen door while Frazier and other family members are sat eating breakfast about three feet away.  Frazier doesn't ask what she is doing, and Randle doesn't tell Frazier "Here's your mate, Wes."  Instead she closes the kitchen door after watching him put a package on the rear seat of the car because she doesn't want him to see her watching what he is doing.

She returns to she kitchen sink and the watches Oswald wave at her.  She is disturbed by this and finds it so frightening that once again she does not turn and say "Here's Lee, Wes."  No.  Instead it is the mother who asks who the boy is looking through the window.

None of it makes any sense.  Do we really believe that Linnie Mae Randle would observe Lee Oswald approaching her property, on her property, and waving through the kitchen window at her and not once say "Hey, Wes, Lee is here"?

But back to the basement.  I haven't got an 'jar of glue' what Frazier was up to but it's certainly another part of the story that makes no sense whatsoever, and is contradicted by other statements of Frazier.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Lee, maybe Frazier went to the basement after the shooting, not to eat his lunch but to turn the power off the elevators?

Sorry, Ray, I completely missed your post.

Truth is that we will probably never know why on earth Frazier went down into the basement after the assassination.  No one with the authority to investigate it seemed bothered to find out or perhaps they did and the information went the same way as his polygraph results.

His sister was the one who caught Adamcik and Rose after they had searched Ruth Paine's house and gave them the brown paper bag story.  My guess is at that exact point Frazier became a suspect and the Irving Police and Dallas Police wanted to get him into custody and I think Randle knew this which is why she sent them on a wild goose chase to Parkland hospital looking for him knowing full well that he wasn't there.

I'm still in two minds whether Randle mentioned any package to Adamcik and Rose.

Once you head into the details of the statements and depositions of Randle and Frazier you begin to see small details not matching that affect the whole story in its early phases.  The original story is that Randle and Frazier's mother saw Oswald looking through the window and asked "who is that" to which Frazier replied "that's Lee."  No mention of Randle opening the kitchen door and watching a suspiciously behaving Oswald place a bag in Frazier's car.  If this happened then it certainly wasn't memorable enough for Randle to mention to Frazier at the time it happened or memorable enough for Frazier to see it and remember it happening.

So instead we are asked to believe a combination of the later statements.  That Randle sees Oswald walking across Westbrook, she said she didn't recognise him in one interview but claims he is carrying a package, she sees him cut across their house in front of her kitchen window.  She turns and opens the kitchen door while Frazier and other family members are sat eating breakfast about three feet away.  Frazier doesn't ask what she is doing, and Randle doesn't tell Frazier "Here's your mate, Wes."  Instead she closes the kitchen door after watching him put a package on the rear seat of the car because she doesn't want him to see her watching what he is doing.

She returns to she kitchen sink and the watches Oswald wave at her.  She is disturbed by this and finds it so frightening that once again she does not turn and say "Here's Lee, Wes."  No.  Instead it is the mother who asks who the boy is looking through the window.

None of it makes any sense.  Do we really believe that Linnie Mae Randle would observe Lee Oswald approaching her property, on her property, and waving through the kitchen window at her and not once say "Hey, Wes, Lee is here"?

But back to the basement.  I haven't got an 'jar of glue' what Frazier was up to but it's certainly another part of the story that makes no sense whatsoever, and is contradicted by other statements of Frazier.

Lee,

I think you have got to the heart of the problem with the whole case. There is virtually nothing that is totally reliable - especially around ground zero. But I suspect you already knew that, given your adventures with buses and random hitch-hikers, and old crones with rooms to rent... 

IIRC it was Richard G who first suggested that Wes was turning off the elevators. I tend to agree. I mean, they stopped - and that seems to have happened while Wes was down there. But you're right - short of a confession, we'll never know for sure.

[GuestGuest]

At DPF someone finally recognized the potentially large importance of Sean's work and that thread.

I think its important not just for the bulletproof alibi it gives Oswald, but for what it tells us about the probable roles of Frazier, his sister and the Paines.

If it turns out that PM really is Oswald, this is one of the new pieces of evidence that should be used for a grand jury to question the Fraziers and the Paines with on that aspect of the case e.g. the setting up of Oswald.

I've just witnessed Albert Doyle turning your DPF Sabato thread into another of his off-topic lecturing sessions.  I swear to God you could put that man in a room with Mother Theresa and she would strangle the bastard after 15 minutes.

He's completely dismissing the Frazier angle because it would have been easy for Oswald to say "Ask Frazier, I was on the steps with him."  Is Albert Doyle as thick as wallpaper paste or is he just an antagonising little shit?

Who is to say that Oswald didn't say that?  Oh right, yeah, the verbatim interrogation notes that we all love cherry picking from.  Not too long ago Bertie "I know everything that has ever happened on this planet" Doyle was trying to chastise me for having faith in certain FBI documents.  Why?  Because those FBI documents shat all over his pet theory about Ralph Yates so they weren't to be trusted - but when it comes to the FBI and Dallas Police interrogation notes old Bertie Know-It-All holds up every word as a perfect rendition of what was said behind closed doors.  My arse!  Which is why I try to not rely upon or use those notes to prove anything other than FBI-DPD corruption and collusion.

Bertie likes making shit up in his head and passing it off as reality.  I'm going to reciprocate.  

Homicide and Robbery Interrogation Room - November 22, 1963 - 1945 hours
Fritz - "So where were you during the shooting, Lee?"
Oswald - "I was outside on the steps."
Fritz - "Really?  Got anyone who will help you out on that?"
Oswald - "Ask Wesley Frazier, he was stood next to me."
Fritz - "Hmmm. Well I just thought I'd let you know we've got Wesley under arrest as your accomplice and we're going to be charging him.  He's squealing like a baby in the other room, Lee."
Oswald - "Oh, BOLLOCKS."

[StanDane]

Bertie likes making shit up in his head and passing it off as reality.  I'm going to reciprocate.  

Homicide and Robbery Interrogation Room - November 22, 1963 - 1945 hours
Fritz - "So where were you during the shooting, Lee?"
Oswald - "I was outside on the steps."
Fritz - "Really?  Got anyone who will help you out on that?"
Oswald - "Ask Wesley Frazier, he was stood next to me."
Fritz - "Hmmm. Well I just thought I'd let you know we've got Wesley under arrest as your accomplice and we're going to be charging him.  He's squealing like a baby in the other room, Lee."
Oswald - "Oh, BOLLOCKS."

Organizing my brain here…
 
If we accept the premise that Oswald is Prayer Man, then we can accept these as facts:

●  Oswald was standing on the front steps to the right of Frazier during the assassination
●  Oswald knew he was standing close to Frazier
●  Frazier was aware of Oswald's presence

Both Frazier and the FBI say that Frazier was taken into custody, accused of having a role in the assassination. Frazier said (in a 2013 interview I watched) that he was pressured to sign some document confessing to his involvement. He refused. Then later, he was let go.
 
If Frazier truly had no role in anything, I don't think it's much of a stretch to consider that—to nail down their lone patsy and avoid Armageddon—they worked over Frazier that evening, using threats and all of the powers at their disposal to figuratively beat him into submission so as to destroy any alibi Lee had. If so, it must have been a scary, unnerving experience. A permanently scarring experience, perhaps. It would explain Frazier's "inability" to identify himself on the steps in the Darnell frames, exactly in the spot where he said he was in his previous statements. Because to do so would open a can of big, ugly worms. It would also explain why, when I see Frazier in interviews, I see an almost imperceptible "twitchiness" in his mannerisms. Like he recalls a pistol whipping from long ago that he never quite got over, and then quickly moves on to more pleasant thoughts.
 
We only know what the FBI-DPD have chosen to tell us. And they are as transparent as a lead brick. Anything Oswald might have said that was helpful to his case never saw the light of day.

That makes your version of the 11/22/63 interrogation perhaps closer to the truth than who the hell knows, Lee.
 

[GuestGuest]

Stan,

There is no doubt in my mind that Frazier was worked over exactly as you describe and there is even less doubt that what was discussed with him was not written down in a notepad or report.  There is a reason Frazier's polygraph went missing and I think that reason is either it wasn't a real polygraph or because the questions would have given the game away - or maybe both.  I also see what you see when I watch contemporary interviews of Frazier.  A psychologically damaged man.

I also believe the possibility exists that Frazier's arrest was used as leverage in Oswald's interrogations to demonstrate that he had no way out if he was using his actual alibi concerning being outside.  In fact, is it too much of stretch to entertain the possibility that this was the whole reason that Frazier was brought in?

There has always been one giveaway for me that the interrogation notes are bogus.  Oswald was arrested on suspicion of murdering Tippit.  He was charged with that crime just over five hours after being arrested.  He mentioned in his press conference about being accused of murdering a policeman - but try as I might I've never once been able to find one question asked of Oswald concerning the Tippit murder in any interrogation report or note page .  Not one.  

Do we really believe he wasn't asked a single question about the crime he was originally booked over?  

Buell Wesley Frazier is the one single living witness who can blow this thing wide open, but I ain't holding my breath that he ever will.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

There has always been one giveaway for me that the interrogation notes are bogus.  Oswald was arrested on suspicion of murdering Tippit.  He was charged with that crime just over five hours after being arrested.  He mentioned in his press conference about being accused of murdering a policeman - but try as I might I've never once been able to find one question asked of Oswald concerning the Tippit murder in any interrogation report or note page .  Not one.  

Do we really believe he wasn't asked a single question about the crime he was originally booked over?  

You know -- that's the first time I seen anyone point this out.


It's almost as if they want us to believe they didn't need to question him on it - it was that open and shut. Yet he obviously was questioned about it - thus his comment to the press. 

The flip side is that all the cops denied they knew the had Kennedy's killer at the time he was arrested. Yet reporter Vic Robertson admitted he knew...

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you opened up the curtains [at the Texas Theater] and looked out, did you have any idea that this might be the man who would be accused of shooting the President? 
Mr. ROBERTSON. If I hadn't, I wouldn't have been there.  

  

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