"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[Hasan Yusuf]

Prayer Man is blatantly a white male. Anyone who says otherwise is being purposely deceitful or desperately needs medical attention for their eyes.

I couldn't agree more, Frankie.

[GuestGuest]

I have to confess that in trying to follow all the alternative analyses of the movements of various personae in and around the TSBD in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, I have become so confused that I can no longer say I understand where anybody was that day.  I have this picture in my mind of all these versions simultaneously superimposed, with the result being a kind of random soup of people rushing up and down stairs and elevators, and bumping into each other (or themselves).

Instead of PBS messing around with single-bullet trajectories, a 3-D simulation of the movements inside the TSBD, with alternative scenarios, at this point would be most helpful.  It might even help demonstrate the contradictions.

Wouldn't want Dale Myers to do it, though.  

In any case, it would be great for those of us who haven't total recall of eyewitness testimony and official reports if someone could expand the timeline posted by Bill Kelly into a comparative one which contrasts the alternate reconstructions offered by Sean, Greg, Lee, Richard, and Colin, accounting for the movements of all these people in and out of the TSBD.  A real task, I realize.

There are many problems and errors with that timeline Bill posted, Albert.

If I had the time I'd offer to put a new one together but they are a pain in the arse having started several and very quickly wanted to throw myself through the nearest window.  Let's see if anyone has the patience to do it and I can help flesh it out.

[Albert Rossi]

Lee,

I realize that Bill's timeline is problematic, which is one of the reasons it would be good to have alternative ones for direct comparison.

If you think such an undertaking would make you want to jump out of a window, then you can imagine what those of us who do not have your (or Sean's or Greg's or Richard's) command of this material feel!

What amazes me is that digging into this has been neglected for so long.  I mean, up until you fellows started to reevaluate all of this, we have sort of drifted along on the work of the first generation.  This has all been something of a cold shower to me, because even if I have not done primary research in this case I thought I was fairly competent and knowledgeable.  Think again, Rossi.

[GuestGuest]

Another interesting exercise would be to take all the statements made by Baker and Truly, both to the DPD, FBI, SS, and the press, and put them in chronological order to see how and when they evolve.

[beowulf]

The pregnant fact, amidst all these recountings, is that the two freight elevators are up on the 5th while Truly & Baker are running around downstairs. This was successfully kept out of the media.

Richard, we don't know if its a fact. I don't think there's any mention that  both elevators were on 5th floor until after FBI did its building survey at the end of November, running time trials on 10 different possible escape routes (none of which involved Oswald getting on elevator at 5th floor).  If the time trials run are any indication, the West elevator (which was callable to 6th floor) was on ground floor and the East elevator (which required an operator) was on 6th floor. Truly added the detail that both elevators were stuck on 5th floor only when it became necessary for FBI to eliminate elevators as an escape route option.

[GuestGuest]

Baker's 11/22 affidavit said that the elevators were hung several floors up. I'm not aware of further clarification until Truly's March testimony. But taking several to mean a few, at least 3, Baker's statement is quite accurate.

I've mailed off a request to NARA today for a copy of that Norman Redlich memo about the Mystery of the West Elevator. Generally it takes a couple weeks to hear back from them. Hopefully the contents are juicy.

Further to the question of exactly when Dougherty encountered the FBI man, from his testimony it seems like this was very soon after he was spotted on the 5th by Truly.

DOUGHERTY: Well, when the FBI men- I imagine it was who it was- he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and just started looking for him, and by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gun and shells.
BALL: When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found the shotgun and shells?
DOUGHERTY: Yes, sir; and I found out later he was on the fourth floor, which I didn't find.

******

Dougherty said he started his search on the 1st, and learned later that Truly was still up on the 4th at the time (on his way down from the roof, conferring briefly with Sawyer).

Once Truly got to the 1st he stayed there, until he went to the 6th to tell Fritz about Oswald.So Dougherty was apparently on 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 by 1:22 while Truly was on the 1st. Basically, Dougherty was roaming the building on his own for a good half-hour, while the other employees assembled on the 1st.

If his "systematic search" story is true, he had to have missed Truly's roll call. I never realized that before. Truly was covering for Dougherty from the get-go.

I'd have to go with an ATF (aka Alcohol Tobacco and Tax) agent as Dougherty's "FBI man". They ran over to the TSBD by 12:35, and although several split off for the knoll parking lot, there were 9 all told, leaving several to search the TSBD. An interaction with Dougherty at 12:37/38 seems much too late for this "FBI man" being a member of the hit team.

[John Mooney]

Wow, it's taken me days to work through the EF and this thread. Absolutely stunning work by all involved, especially Sean.

I 100% believe PM is Oswald.

What does this mean in terms of the set up of Oswald though? All those months of fakery and Oswald is allowed to stand in full view of people and cameras?

The rifle shows Oswald was meant to take the fall, but someone could easily have said "he was standing next to me" or "he's in this photograph".

I'm struggling to figure it out.

Unless the original plan wasn't about a lone nut and they didn't care if it was thought there were a number of people involved or even multiple shooters - Oswald was supposed to be a helper not a shooter - and the "lone nut" angle came afterwards when LBJ (or whoever) didn't want to go with the implications of that?

All plot theories now have to be reevaluated.

---------------
ADDED LATER:

It would also not matter how many rifles were found or if one of the shooters had a dark complexion.

[GuestGuest]

Well he was apparently photographed and people may have seen him, but it didn't matter. The DPD was still able to frame him. What has always puzzled me is why he wasn't immediately eliminated before he was arrested.

[John Mooney]

Well he was apparently photographed and people may have seen him, but it didn't matter. The DPD was still able to frame him. What has always puzzled me is why he wasn't immediately eliminated before he was arrested.

When the DPD were told from above he is the man and him alone? "We have our man".

Plus they thought he shot Tippet as well so what the hell.

I think plot and cover-up might be completely seperate, they were lucky they could just about get away with "lone nut" (close enough for Government work anyway).

It was that or WWIII? All that Cuba/Russia frame up was apparently wasted. 

Maybe there were really two rifles and two shooters (at least).

[GuestGuest]

It's quite possible that elements of the DPD were involved in the original plot, not just the cover up.

[Colin_Crow]

Albert the Bill Kelley timeline I have seen on ED forum is full of errors. One example is that Brennan did not take up position on the wall until 12.25. Jarman and Norman did not get to the fifth floor until about that time. Williams (if he is to be believed joined them after). But to be honest his various statements are hard to reconcile.

[John Mooney]

It's quite possible that elements of the DPD were involved in the original plot, not just the cover up.

Yes I agree.

But my point is that from the plotters point of view it didn't matter if it was deemed to be a conspiracy involving multiple shooters and a helper so long as everyone except Oswald completely disappeared and Oswald either died or disappeared (to Cuba?) as well.

The plotters wanted a finding of conspiracy with the evidence of Cuba/Russian involvement provided by Oswald.

Someone post-assassination put the brakes on that.

[Albert Rossi]

Albert the Bill Kelley timeline I have seen on ED forum is full of errors. One example is that Brennan did not take up position on the wall until 12.25. Jarman and Norman did not get to the fifth floor until about that time. Williams (if he is to be believed joined them after). But to be honest his various statements are hard to reconcile.

Colin,

Yeah.  Actually this timeline has been up on Bill's site for a while (it's dated 08/26).  http://jfkcountercou...ent-events.html

To be fair, it's not Bill's work, though he seems to think it is useful.

We definitely need a corrective one.  Or several alternative ones. 

I would try to do it, but it would probably take me an order of magnitude more time than one of you.  And time these days is a scarce commodity (as I'm sure it is for all of you, too).

Thanks, Al

[Albert Rossi]

Actually, the most recent post on EF
by Richard Hocking, the author of the timeline,
is interesting in this regard:

Robert Prudhomme, on 23 Sept 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

"12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, runs past "Prayer Man" and goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (probably Shelley and Lovelady according to Adams) 21"

I am still trying to understand how Lovelady and Shelley were able to proceed West on Elm St. to the concrete island, plus able to look back and see Truly/Baker entering the TSBD, yet be waiting in the vicinity of the elevators to be spotted first by Vicki Adams and then by Marrion Baker; especially if we read Shelley's testimony, in which he describes himself and Lovelady then going to the railroad yards before returning to the TSBD by the rear door. By her testimony, I think Miss Adams was on her way out of the building through the back door before Truly/Baker arrived at the elevators. If not, there is no way they could have not run into each other on the stairs.

Also, according to Miss Adams' testimony, she had returned from the railroad yard to the TSBD and stopped to listen to the two way radio on a police motorcycle parked in front of the TSBD. Presumably, this was Baker's motorcycle, further proving she had managed to get out of the TSBD before Truly and Baker had entered.

Robert,
 
 If you go through the whole timeline, you will see there are various contradictions, along with bits of testimony that are suspicious.
This all goes back to the original intent of this timeline.  From the inception, it was never intended to be a theory or a comprehensive explanation on my part. I did not exclude certain witness testimony just because I myself did not believe it. 
 
The intent was to organize witness testimony (including testimony that I do not believe) around certain events that I considered to be significant regarding the events that unfolded in the TSBD just before and just after the assassination.  There was some interpretation on my part, especially in assigning times or time ranges to events, but I do have a reasonable argument for assigning every one of those time ranges.  I remain open to new information and suggestions.
 
I have gathered new information since this timeline was first presented.  Prayer man is a perfect example, but there are other events and testimony that need to be added.
And I am in the process of updating.
 
It is important to remember when looking at this timeline that its value lies in  being a guide or a frame of  reference.  So when I do finish the update, it is still going to contain contradictions and some testimony I consider to be suspect.
 
It is up to the user put the pieces together when trying to interpret what actually happened.

[Frankie Vegas]

It's quite possible that elements of the DPD were involved in the original plot, not just the cover up.

Yes I agree.

But my point is that from the plotters point of view it didn't matter if it was deemed to be a conspiracy involving multiple shooters and a helper so long as everyone except Oswald completely disappeared and Oswald either died or disappeared (to Cuba?) as well.

The plotters wanted a finding of conspiracy with the evidence of Cuba/Russian involvement provided by Oswald.

Someone post-assassination put the brakes on that.

I always thought something similar too. The assassination was to get their war against Cuba/Russia (and they hated Kennedy - bonus). Then the cover up was to stop the war they saw coming. LBJ and Hoover convening the Warren Commission and the Lone Nut theory to stop a war that could kill millions.

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

Unless the original plan wasn't about a lone nut and they didn't care if it was thought there were a number of people involved or even multiple shooters - Oswald was supposed to be a helper not a shooter - and the "lone nut" angle came afterwards when LBJ (or whoever) didn't want to go with the implications of that?

Precisely the case.  Just because the powers that be instantly narrowed the focus to a single shooter (for reasons of their own), does not mean that those responsible for the assassination had any such intent.  Too many people have assumed for too long that the assassination went perfectly according to plan, simply because it succeeded in killing Kennedy.  We find, however, two diametrically opposed sets of interest at play.  

It seems demonstrable that more than one weapon was left behind, indicating just the opposite of what has been postulated since.  So long as *a* weapon was found that was traceable back to “Oswald,” whose “leftist” credentials had been burnished via FPCC and his purported trips to enemy consul buildings in Mexico City, the breadcrumb trail of evidence would lead back to Soviet/Cuban sponsorship.  His “involvement” was the only requirement.

Moreover, I posit the retrieval of more than one weapon from the TSBD was a deliberate means to indicate conspiracy, which was the intent.  And the initial charge, as one might predict, was participation in the murder of the President in furtherance of an international Communist conspiracy.  That, I strongly urge, is what the plotters intended, with a retaliatory strike against Cuba as an ancillary benefit.

The fact that Oswald wasn’t prominent in photos served the Commission’s purpose, but was likely irrelevant to the sponsors of the deed.  (One must also recall that the Commission viewed only a small fraction of photos and film footage taken in Dealey Plaza.  The intent of so narrow a focus was, again, to avoid discovering photos of Oswald anywhere but the 6th floor.  One suspects that photos and film that may have "disappeared" in the hands of authorities did so for obvious reasons.  To wit, Beverly Oliver, or whomever Babushka Lady may have been.)

(And a belated welcome to you, John.  I watched your patience and good will taken advantage of elsewhere, and am glad you’ve found a new home.  A hearty welcome to other newcomers as well.)

[Colin_Crow]

A Cuban associated rifle was enough. I have no doubt whoever pulled the trigger would have had a similar profile in case they were discovered. There was no requirement for Oswald to be this person, what better to prove a Castro backed conspiracy the to have more than one commie involved. The "lone nut" outcome was a product of the coverup.

[James DiEugenio]

It's quite possible that elements of the DPD were involved in the original plot, not just the cover up.

Yes I agree.

But my point is that from the plotters point of view it didn't matter if it was deemed to be a conspiracy involving multiple shooters and a helper so long as everyone except Oswald completely disappeared and Oswald either died or disappeared (to Cuba?) as well.

The plotters wanted a finding of conspiracy with the evidence of Cuba/Russian involvement provided by Oswald.

Someone post-assassination put the brakes on that.

I always thought something similar too. The assassination was to get their war against Cuba/Russia (and they hated Kennedy - bonus). Then the cover up was to stop the war they saw coming. LBJ and Hoover convening the Warren Commission and the Lone Nut theory to stop a war that could kill millions.

This is the old, antique pliant of Peter Dale Scott, another of those who set this case in "stone".

Today, I look at this with a skeptical eye.

Clearly, it was the Mexico City stuff that (allegedly) scared Johnson. The Mexico City stuff was a charade which would have been exposed if any real investigation had taken place.  As it was exposed as being phone as a three dollar bill by Lopez and Hardway.

My evolving view of this today is that the intent was not to get to World War III, in which case the plotters themselves may have been incinerated also.  (if you think they lived in NYC and DC, well it was a  near certainty that both were on the first strike list.)

It was meant to do just what it did.  To scare the heck out of the investigators so they would do no real inquiry. Which is what happened.

I am open to one other alternative:  LBJ may have been informed of what had happened and he went along with the script.

Hoover did not realize what happened until later.  But he hated the Kennedys so much--plus Oswald was an FBI informant-- he went headfirst with the cover up from day one.

[GuestGuest]

Suppose Oswald had been picked up by his contact at the movie theatre and whisked away, never to be seen again. Would we have had a WC? How would have things played out then? If the powers that be were so worried about WWIII, why were they content with the idea during the Cuban Missile Crises? Seemed like only he Kennedy's were concerned about annihilation at that time. I think Oswald's being arrested and the possibility of him talking is why the cover up went to the LN phase. and I think Hoover's concern for the FBI, given Oswald's relationship with them, was what initiated it.

[Albert Rossi]

The thread is sort of moving sideways a bit, and I don't want to take it way off track, but since we are on a somewhat more speculative level here, I would introduce another possibility.  The one/two may not just have been a question of plotters vs. coverup.  There may have been different agendas among the planners themselves.  The "invade Cuba" faction may have only been one group of those involved in the plot.  I am led to entertain this idea by such things as the Chicago plot, which, whether real or decoy, was not meant to suggest a Castro connection; and by the message from the White House situation room about the assassination being the work of one person, which occurred while Air Force One was in flight ... pretty early on.  I offer this for what it is: conjecture, not a well-thought-out assassination scenario.  I figure that if one can entertain the idea that the coverup worked at cross purposes and was not of a piece with the original plan, one can also entertain the idea that, even if the assassination was instigated and abetted top-down, not all levels of the operation may have been in perfect harmony.

[Colin_Crow]

The assassination by an apparent Castro backed plot acutally provided insurance against WWIII. It would give an out to Kruschev to back off in the impending retaliation by the US. How could he be seen to support what appeared to be the assassination of Kennedy by Castro in the immediate aftermath? No time to think through what appeared to be damning evidence in the few days before a US resonse that would be quick and decisive. For the killers in the event of no immediate response by Johnson, the fallback was JFK was no more......second prize perhaps.

I suspect that the "Oswald Operation" as planned by a small group of those well versed in Covert Ops (eg Phillips) was not intended to be an true assassination but a Northwoods type operation that could be used to trigger the Cuban invasion. Perhaps this plan leaked to another (eg Morales) who simply hijacked the operation.

[Frankie Vegas]

Suppose Oswald had been picked up by his contact at the movie theatre and whisked away, never to be seen again. Would we have had a WC? How would have things played out then? If the powers that be were so worried about WWIII, why were they content with the idea during the Cuban Missile Crises? Seemed like only he Kennedy's were concerned about annihilation at that time. I think Oswald's being arrested and the possibility of him talking is why the cover up went to the LN phase. and I think Hoover's concern for the FBI, given Oswald's relationship with them, was what initiated it.

I suspect that if Oswald had of been picked up by his contact then we would now be investigating Buell Wesley Frazier, the alleged assassin of President Kennedy.

[beowulf]

I suspect that the "Oswald Operation" as planned by a small group of those well versed in Covert Ops (eg Phillips) was not intended to be an true assassination but a Northwoods type operation that could be used to trigger the Cuban invasion. Perhaps this plan leaked to another (eg Morales) who simply hijacked the operation.

That's interesting, similar to Lamar Waldron's theory the Mafia hijacked the CIA's Castro assassination plan to instead assassinate Kennedy. In both cases, the coverup was necessary because the public would rightly condemn govt officials for doing something shady that led to the JFK's murder.

[John Mooney]

When I said "start WWIII" perhaps that was too far. Certainly a compelling case to invade Cuba that the public could get on board with.

For years something bugged me, I believed Oswald when he said he was a Patsy, but I also couldn't figure out what they told him to "keep out of sight"... in the 2nd floor lunchroom, or store cupboard.

Now things make sense (to me anyway).. he wasn't keeping out of sight and he wasn't in the 2nd floor lunchroom. The plot didn't need a lone nut.

The TPTB with a lot of assistance from DPD/FBI and Lady Luck suppressed evidence and were able to just about convince the public it was a lone nut.

I'm sorry it this is a slight sidetrack, perhaps there needs to be a separate thread about what Prayer Man implies.

[Albert Rossi]

I apologize for contributing to the further drift of this thread, but I didn't want to open another one which IMO would distract from the fascinating, detailed discussion of documents and testimony going on here (and to which I would hope we will eventually return). 

Nonetheless, I did want to raise a question for those who have proposed that LHO was not originally intended to be an assassin (let alone the lone assassin).  What, then, do you make of the rifle range sighting(s)?  I suppose getting a rifle fitted with a scope could be explained as intended to implicate Oswald merely as accessory, but why have him be seen practicing with the rifle (and creating the scenes attributed to him)?  And what of Leopoldo's follow-up call to Silvia Odio, where Leon is said to have accused others as not having the guts to kill Kennedy, and of being a little loco? To me, at least, it seems these are indices that his framing was intended to go beyond his simply being an accomplice.

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