"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[StanDane]

Frazier knows there was a "cover-up" but he is obviously shit scared to uncover it on his lonesome probably due to the fact that he was, perhaps, an unwilling participant in the cover up itself.
I sort of feel sorry for Frazier and then I don't. He can blow this thing wide open by himself. There aren't too many witnesses around that can do that.

I agree. Other than Ruth Paine, BWF is probably the most important witness still living.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Frazier was asked back in May about PM. At that point, he was still denying that the person that just about everyone else sees is him, was in fact him.

[Goban_Saor]

Frazier was asked back in May about PM. At that point, he was still denying that the person that just about everyone else sees is him, was in fact him.

Can you provide further details on this, Greg?

That would seem to be a shift in Frazier's position from that referred to in my post four posts above this one.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Frazier was asked back in May about PM. At that point, he was still denying that the person that just about everyone else sees is him, was in fact him.

Can you provide further details on this, Greg?

That would seem to be a shift in Frazier's position from that referred to in my post four posts above this one.

Goban,

you referenced a particular post by Sean Murphy at the Ed Forum thread.

In that post, Sean has copied a message from Gary Mack to a member of a third forum. In that message, it specifically states... "First, he [Frazier] wouldn’t confirm himself being on the top step because the image isn’t clear enough."


Given the above, I see conformity rather than a shift in position.

As for particulars, I would need to seek permission to go into those details. Not that there is much more to tell anyway apart from the name of the person who put the question to him. There was an expected second opportunity to talk to him - but if it did happen, I have not heard anything about it yet.

[Goban_Saor]

Sorry, Greg, there was some confusion on my part arising from my misreading your previous post when you said:
 
‘Frazier was asked back in May about PM. At that point, he was still denying that the person that just about everyone else sees is him, was in fact him.’
 
I misinterpreted the ‘him’ in the second sentence as denoting PM rather than Frazier.
 
Insofar as Frazier has again denied that the figure to the right of and behind PM is him (Frazier), you are correct is saying he is consistent in his denial.
 
However, I don’t believe this impinges on what I said earlier (page 56 upthread) in agreeing with Sean Murphy that Frazier’s prevarication effectively confirms that PM is Oswald.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Sorry, Greg, there was some confusion on my part arising from my misreading your previous post when you said:
 
‘Frazier was asked back in May about PM. At that point, he was still denying that the person that just about everyone else sees is him, was in fact him.’
 
I misinterpreted the ‘him’ in the second sentence as denoting PM rather than Frazier.
 
Insofar as Frazier has again denied that the figure to the right of and behind PM is him (Frazier), you are correct is saying he is consistent in his denial.
 
However, I don’t believe this impinges on what I said earlier (page 56 upthread) in agreeing with Sean Murphy that Frazier’s prevarication effectively confirms that PM is Oswald.

I agree - and apologies if I gave the wrong impression.

[Goban_Saor]

No apologies necessary, Greg. The mistake was all mine.
 
On a separate but related note, some people who dispute Oswald being PM argue that if he really were in the PM position he would have said so and he didn’t say so.
 
They deny that the ‘out with Bill Shelley in front’ detail in Captain Will Fritz’s notes of Oswald’s interrogation means what it seems to mean, ie Oswald claiming to be in front of the TSBD at the time of the assassination.
 
They say that the ‘out with Bill Shelley in front’ detail is uncontextualised and could be a reply to any number of questions.
 
During a discussion in the past here about this, I said that I had come across an official confirmation of Oswald’s claiming to having been ‘out with Bill Shelley in front’ at the time of the assassination. I couldn’t at the time remember where I had come across it and it was only in re-reading some of the Prayer Man thread recently that I found what seems like the official confirmation I was referring to.  Kudos again to Sean Murphy for his post # 681 on the PM thread dated 10^th September 2013 where he said:
 
Fritz, as we have already seen, let this very big moggy out of the bag during his WC testimony:
 
Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement...
 
We know now that Lee was telling the truth...

[Albert Rossi]

Hi all.  I was at the AARC.  I figured I might as well try it again, so I approached Buell with the
Robin Unger enhancement of the Darnell frame on my laptop desktop, and asked him

1.  if that was him
2.  who the other figure was.

He admitted 1. was him.
He said 2. was not clear enough for certain identification, but it probably wasn't Lovelady
because by that time he had taken off with Shelley for the RR yard.

I didn't press him.

BTW the reason I had this at my disposal was I helped Jim D prepare his slideshow, and
he mentioned PrayerMan.  We had two slides from Darnell and Wiegman.

[StanDane]

Hi all.  I was at the AARC.  I figured I might as well try it again, so I approached Buell with the
Robin Unger enhancement of the Darnell frame on my laptop desktop, and asked him

1.  if that was him
2.  who the other figure was.

He admitted 1. was him.
He said 2. was not clear enough for certain identification, but it probably wasn't Lovelady
because by that time he had taken off with Shelley for the RR yard.

I didn't press him.

BTW the reason I had this at my disposal was I helped Jim D prepare his slideshow, and
he mentioned PrayerMan.  We had two slides from Darnell and Wiegman.

Hey Albert, nice to see you!

This is a huge admission! Finally, confirmation. It would have been cool if he would have said who PM was, but him saying it "probably" wasn't Lovelady is telling too. Progress.

Well done!

[Albert Rossi]

Yes, it was a bit funny because I first asked him if he could identify
Prayer Man, and while he was mulling it over, I said to him, pointing
to his image, "By the way, Mr. Frazier, is that you?"  To that he
responded, "very probably ... look at the hairline."  So yes, he seemed
to be in a more forthcoming mood at that point.

When he was answering questions after his talk (he repeatedly got choked
up as if withholding tears as he spoke of the events of that day), Jim
D had to leave the hall and asked me to ask him about where the polygraph
results went.  When i did, he responded that others have asked him the same
question and that he really didn't know.

[Albert Rossi]

By the way, I've been absent from the forum since June, Stan, but I recall you
had a rather serious accident.  I trust you are now fully recovered!

[StanDane]

By the way, I've been absent from the forum since June, Stan, but I recall you
had a rather serious accident.  I trust you are now fully recovered!

Nothing that a little duct tape and bailing twine couldn't fix. For all intents and purposes I'm back to normal. I know you're super busy, but do try to check in every now and then—you have been missed!

[Hasan Yusuf]

Hi all.  I was at the AARC.  I figured I might as well try it again, so I approached Buell with the
Robin Unger enhancement of the Darnell frame on my laptop desktop, and asked him

1.  if that was him
2.  who the other figure was.

He admitted 1. was him.
He said 2. was not clear enough for certain identification, but it probably wasn't Lovelady
because by that time he had taken off with Shelley for the RR yard.

I didn't press him.

BTW the reason I had this at my disposal was I helped Jim D prepare his slideshow, and
he mentioned PrayerMan.  We had two slides from Darnell and Wiegman.

Welcome back, Albert! And thanks for sharing that bit of info about Frazier.

[StanDane]

I thought Pat Speer's AARC Conference comments today on BWF were interesting:

Buell Wesley Frazier also spoke at the conference. He repeated what he'd been saying for years--that, in his impression, the bag Oswald put in the car was far too small to hold the rifle. But he also said some things to me in private conversation that I think should become part of the record. I told him that I, too, had done warehouse work, and had pulled orders off a clipboard. I said that, in my experience, when an order puller goes to lunch, he leaves the orders still to be pulled on a clipboard in a place near where he will resume work, and that, to me, there was nothing remotely suspicious about Oswald's clipboard being found on the sixth floor, near the stairs. He agreed. I also explained to him that his recollections regarding the bag are a two-way street--not only did Oswald supposedly carry his rifle to work in the bag he saw on the 22nd, but that Oswald also supposedly smuggled the paper used to make this bag to Irving on the 21st. I mentioned that, in my estimation, a large piece of industrial wrapping paper would be difficult to conceal in one's clothing without being noticed. At that, Frazier got a sad look on his face, which said to me "It's even worse than I thought." He then looked me in the eyes, and said, as firmly and as confidently as one has ever said anything, "That DID NOT happen."

[Albert Rossi]

Hi Hasan. 

I don't know about Jim, but I felt the conference as a whole
was disappointing.  Hearing Veciana, meeting Ed Lopez and Marie Fonzi,
and asking Frazier about the image were the high points for me.  The
whole thing was really poorly organized (they rescheduled around Blakey
three times, and did not keep the speakers to their times). 

What's more, I had really been looking forward to hearing John Newman,
but his talk had me flummoxed, though upon reflection, the seed of it
can indeed be found on p. 262 of the 2008 edition of Oswald & the CIA. 
Seems he thinks that the Cubela plot was where they hid the
assassination plot, because that way they could blackmail
RFK, since he ordered that assassination attempt on Castro,  Ugh.  I
admire John's adeptness and savvy with piecing documents together,
and I like where he goes with Mexico City (even if I don't share his
conviction Oswald was actually there), but this made my heart sink.
How could he make that claim, based as it is on extremely
dubious hearsay?  Of course, Lisa Pease stood up
and immediately took him to task for it.  (I personally am inclined to
see that whole Cubela business as an attempt to sabotage the
JFK-Castro rapprochement, because they knew they wouldn't turn
Cubela and that he'd report back to Castro that an attempt against
him was sanctioned by the Attorney General; but I don't think
this figured into the JFK plot the way John says it does).

You'll also be interested to know that Don Thomas (as far as I could tell, as I
sometimes was in and out of sessions) went over a lot of the same
material as you covered on Gerald Hill, and if I did not hear incorrectly, Bill
Simpich said that Westerbrook was probably a CIA liaison.  Sorry I didn't
get to hear more of their presentations, but there was a general craziness
to the proceedings. 

Anyway, I'm home, back to work, but rather exhausted (and a bit depressed).

[TerryWMartin]

Al,

Good to see you back. I take it you shook off whatever it was you received in Deutschland.

Stan,

Do we have anymore costumes around? And is there any precedence for a fifth musketeer?

[Albert Rossi]

Hi Terry,

that was godawful, but yes, after another week or two at home
I was fine.  But then I seriously threw out my back in August.
Screwed up my whole planned vacation (we were going to
the Costa Maya and then to Vail CO ... beach and then
mountains for a long needed relax, but it did not happen).

Well, better not clutter this thread with more chit-chat.

And I had better get back to the books.

[beowulf]

Yes, it was a bit funny because I first asked him if he could identify
Prayer Man, and while he was mulling it over, I said to him, pointing
to his image, "By the way, Mr. Frazier, is that you?"  To that he
responded, "very probably ... look at the hairline."  So yes, he seemed
to be in a more forthcoming mood at that point.

Thanks for the report. I wonder if when he was asked this last year (and he couldn't even identify himself), he was shown the fuzzy pictures and not the cleaned up ones.

[Hasan Yusuf]

You'll also be interested to know that Don Thomas (as far as I could tell, as I
sometimes was in and out of sessions) went over a lot of the same
material as you covered on Gerald Hill, and if I did not hear incorrectly, Bill
Simpich said that Westerbrook was probably a CIA liaison.  Sorry I didn't
get to hear more of their presentations, but there was a general craziness
to the proceedings.

Thanks for that, Albert. Have emailed Jim Di for further information on what Thomas had to say about Hill. I don't know if you've read this, but this is an essay I wrote re Hill and Westbrook not too long ago:

http://jfkthelonegunmanmyth.blogspot.com.au/2014/09/a-few-words-on-former-dpd-captain.html

Thought that it may be of interest to you. I hope you're feeling much better real soon.

[GuestGuest]

Thank you for sharing, Mr Rossi.

[Albert Rossi]

Hasan, thanks for the pointer - good piece.  Looks like Bill drew on Greg or some common source,
because his evidence for Westbrook's CIA connection was precisely what you mention,
police advisor in South Vietnam, and the USAID link.  As I said, I don't know exactly where
he and Don took their argument, but the snatches I heard sounded awfully like what you have
been writing.  I don't believe Jim heard either talk.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Jim and one or two others such as Bill Simpich, are among the few not going to these things and not simply regurgitating old material like some tired vaudevillian trying to do stand-up. Jim in particular, deserves great credit for not only embracing new research, but championing it.

[Hasan Yusuf]

Hasan, thanks for the pointer - good piece.  Looks like Bill drew on Greg or some common source,
because his evidence for Westbrook's CIA connection was precisely what you mention,
police advisor in South Vietnam, and the USAID link.  As I said, I don't know exactly where
he and Don took their argument, but the snatches I heard sounded awfully like what you have
been writing.  I don't believe Jim heard either talk.

Thanks, Albert. You were right, Jim didn't attend the Thomas presentation.

[Jake_Sykes]

I was looking for info on SW Publishing and came across this post by Sean from back on "The Thread" at EF and just admired the depth of research, the power of the logic, and the level of applied intellect. It's awesome stuff and a reminder of why PM lives:

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:02 AM
On December 6th 1963 Time Magazine carried a story titled 'The Man Who Killed Kennedy'.
 
It contained the following account of the Oswald-Reid encounter:
 
Carrying his Coke, Oswald ambled into a nearby office. A switchboard operator said, "Wasn't that terrible—the President being shot?" Oswald mumbled something unintelligible, went out of the office, walked down the steps and slipped through the crowd outside. 
 
**
 
French researcher Leo Sauvage was puzzled by the reference to a "switchboard operator" and, in February 64, asked Roy Truly about it:
 
 
 Yes, he confirmed, that was the story told to the FBI when—on the following week—they finally began questioning everyone who works in the School Depository. But, he added, it wasn’t the switchboard operator who spoke to Oswald. It was another woman working in the same office, and yes, that office is “right next to the lunchroom.” Did either of the two women notice the noise Oswald must have made in the corridor rushing in from the sixth floor? Mr. Truly didn’t know. 
 
 
How very odd.
One would expect Truly to simply correct the idea that Mrs Reid was a switchboard operator and leave it at that.
But the spectre of Geneva Hine looms too large.
Technically speaking, she wasn't a switchboard operator (there was no switchboard proper in the second-floor office).
She did however volunteer to keep an eye on incoming phone calls while her colleagues went outside to watch the motorcade.
And, given the fact that she and she alone was in the office area around the time of the motorcade, it is simply not credible that the Time Magazine reporter in referring to a switchboard operator meeting Oswald there had just made a lucky mistake.
Clearly the reporter had gotten wind of the fact that someone was in the office at the time looking after the phones and that this person had had an interaction with Oswald.
And the reporter, hearing also about a conversation between a female employee and Oswald in that same office area just after the shooting, assumed that said female employee must have been the switchboard operator.
 
So Truly is in a real bind when asked about the Time reference to a switchboard operator.
He is having to admit that Jeraldean Reid was not the only woman in the office area immediately after the assassination.
Yet the Reid story--which she was given on 11/23--requires the office to be empty at the time of the encounter.
 
**
 
On September 17th 2011 Robert Groden made the following remarks in a radio interview with Len Osanic:



I actually found a woman some years ago. She was terrified. She did not want to come forward. And she finally agreed to give an interview, and I did interview her. When the shots actually went off, she was talking to Lee Oswald on the second floor. […] We always assumed that Lee had the change, that he had had the change for the machine. He didn’t. He went into the office across from the snack room with a dollar bill and asked for change. He said, “No pennies, please.” And, as the change was being counted out into his hand, the shots went off. And they looked at each other, this woman and Lee, and [asked], “What was that?” Backfires, firecrack[ers], who knew? He got the rest of the change, walked back across the hall, bought the Coke and then just a little over a minute later there was a gun in his ribs held by Officer Baker. Lee had an airtight alibi. He could not possibly have done this. She told this story to the Warren Commission. They told her to keep her mouth shut. And she did. She told very few people. Very few people. I was one of the few that she did. So I got to speak to her because I had a friend who knew a friend of hers. I had to promise her I would never reveal any of this until after she was gone. And now she is. The whole story, including her name, will be in the next book.



Groden's book has not yet been published, and it is a cause of real regret that he has chosen to hold back these potentially case-breaking details for so long.
 
The woman he spoke with must surely be Geneva Hine (who died at the age of 100 just over a decade ago).
 
**
 
What are we to make of Groden's claim?
 
My belief is that Lee Oswald is Prayer Man and that he had already descended from his coke-purchasing visit to the second-floor lunchroom in time to catch the motorcade from the front steps.
 
This is the chronology of events implied in the crucial first interrogation report written jointly by FBI Special Agents Bookhout and Hosty:
-Broke off work and went down for lunch in domino room
-Went up to second-floor lunchroom to purchase a Coca Cola
-Back down to first floor, which is where he was at the time of the assassination.
 
If (as I believe) Oswald really did claim to have been on the first floor at the time of the shooting, then the story as relayed by Groden does not make sense.
Hearing the loud bangs in the second-floor office, he may conceivably have mistaken them at the time for motorcycle backfires or firecrackers, but there is no way he would have failed to grasp their true meaning by the time of his arrest.
And yet he appears to be placing himself on the first, not second, floor "when President Kennedy passed this building".
 
**
 
This is not to say that Groden's witness story is without significance.
It may in fact be of huge importance.
 
Here--pending disclosure of the full details from Groden--is what I believe may have happened.
 
 
1. Oswald got change for the coke machine from Hine a very few minutes before the shooting.
 
2. Oswald and Hine did hear bangs as she was giving him his change, but they were not shots--they were motorcycle backfires, the same motorcycle backfires which Buell Wesley Frazier told Gary Mack he heard in Dealey Plaza while everyone was awaiting the motorcade.
 
3. Oswald then went to the second-floor lunchroom and got his coke.
 
4. Oswald after this went down to the first floor and caught the motorcade. (IMO he, Prayer Man, is holding the coke in his immobile left hand.)
 
I hesitate to say this, but my suspicion is that Groden has (for understandable reasons) slightly sexed up Hine's account by unequivocally identifying the bangs she said she and Oswald heard as the shots that were fired at Kennedy.
He is also joining the dots between Hine's story and the fictitious lunchroom story in a way not strictly sanctioned by Hine's account.
 
**
 
If Hine was indeed the woman Groden spoke with, and if her story was basically factual, then we have another explanation for Reid's being drafted in on the Saturday as a supporting witness for Truly's damage-limitation lunchroom story:
 
Oswald is still alive.
He is expected to go to trial.
He is going to be talking about an interaction with a female employee in the second-floor office area just before the assassination.
Hine must be told to shut up about giving Oswald change for the coke machine, for her story would blow the lid on the lie that his visit to the lunchroom was post-assassination.
And in order that Oswald's talk at trial about speaking with a female employee in the office area be explained away, Reid must be inveigled into coming forward with a phoney post-assassination Oswald-in-office-area story.
 
**
 
If the above outline of events is correct, then why was Hine not simply pressurised into testifying to the WC that she had witnessed the Reid-Oswald encounter?
 
Because she had already been pressurised into going on the record several times to the effect that she had not seen Lee Oswald at all on the day of the assassination.
 
The result of all this?
The relationship between Hine's WC testimony and that of Reid is horribly messy and contradictory.
The best Reid can do--can be made to do--is leave open the impression that she may have left the office area shortly after the Oswald encounter.
 
Where might she have gone to?
Ironically enough, there is only one possible place available if she is to avoid running into Hine in the corridor:
the second-floor lunchroom...
 

[Goban_Saor]

Does anyone know if any effort is still being made to obtain better versions of the Darnell and Wiegman Prayer Man films?

At one stage there was talk of trying to get Oliver Stone interested as he might have the clout and money to get the films released. I think the idea was that James DiEugenio would ask him about it when he (Oliver Stone) had completed the work on his Edward Snowden film.

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