"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[Ed.Ledoux]

A hefty burden they will have.

[Vinny]

They will spend hours debating nonsense like Harvey and Lee, yet have no time for PM.

[Ed.Ledoux]

Two Marguerite theory is even an option with them....

[GuestGuest]

The EF has sunken to a deeper low that seems unfathomable. We have the dynamic duo of Pugesley and Billy Ray Mullet claiming they know Frazier well enough to suggest he is not lying and is telling us the whole truth at least. This assumption that Frazier would have said as much about Oswald being Prayer Man if he was is totally unfounded and 100% speculative but never mind that. To them Frazier is nothing but the truth with absolutely no rationale other than warm and fuzzy feelings about the man.
I don't bother with the EF too much nowadays. I put it in the same league as the Ass Forum, Deep Foo and Der Forum. It is inhabited by dunces and those who murk the waters when it comes to this case. There is nothing genuine or even original in that place anymore. It's more preoccupied with surviving when it should in fact commit harakiri to retain some sort of dignity or integrity.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

The EF has sunken to a deeper low that seems unfathomable. We have the dynamic duo of Pugesley and Billy Ray Mullet claiming they know Frazier well enough to suggest he is not lying and is telling us the whole truth at least. This assumption that Frazier would have said as much about Oswald being Prayer Man if he was is totally unfounded and 100% speculative but never mind that. To them Frazier is nothing but the truth with absolutely no rationale other than warm and fuzzy feelings about the man.
I don't bother with the EF too much nowadays. I put it in the same league as the Ass Forum, Deep Foo and Der Forum. It is inhabited by dunces and those who murk the waters when it comes to this case. There is nothing genuine or even original in that place anymore. It's more preoccupied with surviving when it should in fact commit harakiri to retain some sort of dignity or integrity.

Nailed, Paul.

[Jake_Sykes]

Absolutely Paul. You've reminded me that just the other day and for the very reasons that you identify, I was seriously pondering who the f*** funds that joint anyway.

[Mick_Purdy]

Paul wrote:




This assumption that Frazier would have said as much about Oswald being Prayer Man if he was is totally unfounded and 100% speculative but never mind that. To them Frazier is nothing but the truth with absolutely no rationale other than warm and fuzzy feelings about the man.



Spot on!


I'm not buying what any of these other forums are selling either. It'll make you violently ill.


When will people realise this f'ing event was over 50 years ago. Nice today does not equal nice yesterday. FFS.

[Jake_Sykes]

Mick said:

"I'm not buying what any of these other forums are selling either."


And they never try to sell what they know anyone with reasoning skills is willing to buy. By that I mean, the facts of the process of elimination that leads only to it being Oswald. It is that self same untouchable third rail in this argument that has ever fulminated the absurd notion that PM is female. It is the best, lame attempt anyone not willing to face the facts can invent in order to obviate the inconvenient truth sound logic leads to. The lameness of that silly excuse for honest interpretation really says it all. 


They won't let go of it though. Like dogs on the very last bone, it's all they've got.

[Mick_Purdy]

Jake,


never a truer word spoken.

Its the other material aside from the scans (First to Second) which they refuse to acknowledge, they distract and divert because they have nothing more to contribute. For many this is the end game. For many thats unthinkable. They will resort to anything to keep the status quo.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

PM's height
various methods have all come out at 5' 9" and therefore any comparison with known heights of others within the photo/s where said comparison appears to show Oswald as being shorter than 5' 9" have alternative explanations to do with exact positioning of the individuals, posture and technical matters relating to the taking of the shots.

Witness statements
Others on the steps told the FBI that they had not seen any strangers, nor had most seen Oswald that day at all, except perhaps earlier in the day. Oswald as PM does not require that all these witnesses be liars. Not seeing any strangers, or Oswald on the steps is not the same as saying that there were no strangers, or Oswald on the steps. Oswald was at the back, in the shadows, late arriving, and there for only a short time. It cannot be surprising (except to Squatch-Watchers) that no one recalled a young man standing in that position.                    

Occams Razor
states that assumptions introduced to help explain any phenomena must not exceed the least number required.

Put another way, if 20,000 assumptions are used to reach a conclusion, but another person can reach a conclusion using only 19,999, then this one is more liable to be correct.

In short, the exact number of assumptions used is not the issue - the issue rests solely on whether this is the least number needed.

Occam's Razor is applied to decide between competing theories otherwise equally supported by evidence.

The law of parsimony
Is Occams Razor applied regardless of the nature and competitiveness of different theories or strength of underlying evidence. It just states that the theory using the least number of assumptions is the most likely to be correct.

Neither are applicable in a case of conspiracy - which by it's very nature lives and dies by deceit and secrecy. 

Nor can it be applied to eyewitnesses as it is known that witnesses to traumatic events provide among the least reliable type of evidence. 

But for the sake of argument... the assumptions being applied are are limited to

That the vast majority of those on the steps told the truth about not noticing anyone.

The only exception to the above: Buell Frazier

--------------------

The hard evidence:

PM is 5' 9" and a young male wearing workers clothing.

That his alleged girth is due to a light behind him being assumed to be part of his girth.

That Oswald's alibi places him on the first floor at all relevant times with only a brief pre-assassination trip to get a coke and a quick visit to the steps being the sole exceptions

That his alibi is supported via WC and HSCA testimony, DPD and other reports, and newspaper accounts. 

That there is sound evidence for the attempted destruction of the alibi and the creating of a false narrative to replace it.

[Colin_Crow]

Great post Greg.

[Mick_Purdy]

Is Occams Razor applied regardless of the nature and competitiveness of different theories or strength of underlying evidence. It just states that the theory using the least number of assumptions is the most likely to be correct.

Neither are applicable in a case of conspiracy - which by it's very nature lives and dies by deceit and secrecy. 

Nor can it be applied to eyewitnesses as it is known that witnesses to traumatic events provide among the least reliable type of evidence. 

But for the sake of argument... the assumptions being applied are are limited to

That the vast majority of those on the steps told the truth about not noticing anyone.

The only exception to the above: Buell Frazier




Albert Rossi on Tue 30 Sep 2014 said:
 
    Hi all. I was at the AARC. I figured I might as well try it again, so I approached Buell with the
    Robin Unger enhancement of the Darnell frame on my laptop desktop, and asked him
    
    1. if that was him
    
    2. who the other figure was.
    
    He admitted 1. was him.
    
    He said 2. was not clear enough for certain identification, but it probably wasn't Lovelady
    because by that time he had taken off with Shelley for the RR yard.


Yes Frazier did have a sense of who was on those steps he has admitted this for years - just as surely as he knew who was standing just feet away from him to his right a top of the stairs immediately after the rifle fire.


A fantastic post Greg.

[Mick_Purdy]

That the vast majority of those on the steps told the truth about not noticing anyone.

The only exception to the above: Buell Frazier,




And of course lets not forget Lee Oswald, He identified Shelley as being out front, assuming he meant the landing area, the steps out front of the building. As we know he can only have stated this if he were there -out front, at least one would assume.




And supported by the following:


That Oswald's alibi places him on the first floor at all relevant times with only a brief pre-assassination trip to get a coke and a quick visit to the steps being the sole exceptions

That his alibi is supported via WC and HSCA testimony, DPD and other reports, and newspaper accounts. 

[Jake_Sykes]

For the EF people struggling to determine the depth of the landing outside from the TSBD vestibule. This is the official floor plan complete with graphic scale indicating a landing about 5' deep, which sounds about right for a 3' door leaving 2' to spare when the door is open. Not a very big landing really:

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Thanks Jake.

Great avatar, btw!

[Jake_Sykes]

Thank you Greg. Glad you like it.

There is no legitimate doubt that Prayer Man can be standing on the first step down from the landing with both feet. All the angles, including the sun angle, work just fine for it. A clean scan will prove it.

[cavalier973]

Hello, everyone,

First post:

I just discovered this issue of "Prayer Man" a few days ago while idly reading through some of the info on the "22November1963" site.

Intensely interesting.

On page 36 of the Education Forum thread, Sean Murphy reproduces Billy Ray Williams' affidavit on 22 November 1963. Mr. Murphy is pointing out that Mr. Williams' testimony can be interpreted to mean that Officer Baker and Mr. Truly took the elevator to the 5th floor (rather than the stairs).

I noticed something else (and this may have been commented on previously): Mr. Williams testified: "I heard 2 shots it sounded like they came from just above us".

Why didn't he hear 3 shots?

[Vinny]

Welcome to ROKC, Cavalier.

[Ed.Ledoux]

Aloha Cav,

Or should I call you Cavalier?

Since no one actually fired from the snipers nest as has been proven to death in No Shots Fired From TSBD thread.
Then logic dictates he lied about the sounds location to fit the story being made up by DPD and FBI and SS.

[cavalier973]

Aloha Cav,

Or should I call you Cavalier?

Since no one actually fired from the snipers nest as has been proven to death in No Shots Fired From TSBD thread.
Then logic dictates he lied about the sounds location to fit the story being made up by DPD and FBI and SS.

You can call me anything, as long as you call me for dinner.

I'll check out that other thread, but before I do, was the possibility that what Bonnie Ray and his friends heard were shots from the Dal-Tex building?

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Aloha Cav,

Or should I call you Cavalier?

Since no one actually fired from the snipers nest as has been proven to death in No Shots Fired From TSBD thread.
Then logic dictates he lied about the sounds location to fit the story being made up by DPD and FBI and SS.

You can call me anything, as long as you call me for dinner.

I'll check out that other thread, but before I do, was the possibility that what Bonnie Ray and his friends heard were shots from the Dal-Tex building?

I would have thought not calling you cavalier with the facts would have been preferable to dinner ;-)

The  Del-Tex remains a possibility to my mind.

[Ed.Ledoux]

Mr. BALL. Norman said what? 

Mr. WILLIAMS.
He said it came directly
over our heads. "I can
even hear the shell
being ejected from
the gun hitting the
floor." But I did not
hear the shell being
ejected from the gun,
probably because I
wasn't paying
attention.
͟
He had to be told it was from overhead by Norman and in the TSBD
In the Depository and From the floor above, directly over our
heads.

 
TSBD- Really?

Mr. WILLIAMS.
Well,
the first shot-I really
did not pay any
attention to it,
because I did not
know what was
happening. The
second shot, it
sounded like it was
right in the building,
the second and third
shot. And it sounded-
it even shook the
building, the side we
were on cement fell
on my head.

 Kinda vague for being a few feet from
supposed shots origination.
A first shot that would be more downward towards his location.

Never says the later two where from above him just that they were "SOUNDED LIKE THEY WERE RIGHT IN THE BUILDING"

Why not say they were from the building then, why the semantics.
Why? Because there was no shots from above them.

Near. Yes.
Above... Not a chance.

Rifle exploding feet from your ear, but you don't pay it any attention... please, spare me.

The three stooges made better witnesses, but in their bungling style they give away the truth.

Cheers, Ed

[Ed.Ledoux]

Its all a nice fairy tale but any reasonable person would ask fairly straight forward questions about their supposedly knowing a killer is mere feet above them, and what they did with this information.

Seems first thing they did was checked the killers accuracy.

Made a bee line to the West windows,
to see if they caught the killer in the knoll area...
but what about the killer above?
Forget about it.
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=234


Then they decide to go downstairs.
They SEE NO ONE on the stairs. (nice question counselor )

And that's it. Hmmm five minutes later they go downstairs.,

to find a police man? Nah

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317&relPageId=696

he minces words, "he believes the floor above me"
not very convincing.


Harold Norman Is not supported in
his claims by the other two on 6th.

[Ed.Ledoux]

Norman hears shots that he tells the others they are from "above"

Yet here Norman describes exactly what the president is doing, slumping.

And he continues to watch till he says he couldn't see.

Not real worried about the shooter, or that he could possibly come crashing through the unfinished old weak floor, or the Secret Service might return fire in their direction, nah not a worry, keep watching!! and then sprint for the West windows to see where the shot was blowing Kennedy's head off came from...
nope it was from above, I'm thoroughly convinced now 
(the infamous double eye roll, please don't try at home)


Now I understand you might try and fudge the two shots are from here or think there was two shots here and one shot there. Fair enough.
But those are directions 
not origin.

No bullet originated its flight from the TSBD snipers nest or any other window in the building.

Witnesses and origin. (my notes throughout)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ia0cn1jm85dmlrf/tsbdWitness.docx?dl=0

"Above" is comical
Cheers, Ed

[Mick_Purdy]

And it sounded-
it even shook the 
building, the side we 
were on cement fell 
on my head.


Ed stop it!


I can't take any more of this comedy.

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