Prayer Man

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Original Prayer Man thread at the Education Forum
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/20354-oswald-leaving-tsbd/

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G'day,
I have to say I find it oh so mildly amusing reading some of the comments, thoughts and rants associated on other forums regarding Prayer Man / Oswald on the front steps. It's sad really, watching people who have spent a lifetime married to an idea or a theory, only to witness that idea or theory shattering into a thousand pieces and not accepting the inevitable singular conclusion which is staring them in the face. To Greg Parker, Sean Murphy and all the other amazing researchers following the path of truth in this case I tips me Lid.

Mick

Ed wrote:


Mick I think you'd agree it's hard to eat a lunch you didn't bring.


Yes Ed, and there is zero evidence he went outside the building to purchase it that day either. Why would he speak of eating his lunch if he didn't have it with him? Why would he tell Fritz he had brought his lunch to work - apple and a cheese sandwich. Hell even Wesley Frazier told the authorities Oswald would always take a lunch to work in a small lunch bag.
 


and I do not recall Linnie or Buell admitting to TWO SACKS.
That'd be ... 'sac'rilegious



Not two - not ever two. Just one - long enough to carry the broken down MC rifle or so said Linnie Mae. If Wesley did drive Oswald to work ( As you know I have my doubts) he most certainly saw a sack. A small brown paper lunch sack - the kind you buy at grocery stores. 


Wasn't the one person that used the paper and tape from the wrapping area was Frankie Kaiser.
Wasn't it his/Lee's clipboard made from the shipping dept. materials.
Wasn't it Kaiser whom happens to be absent.
Wasn't it Kaiser whom got into a bit of a scuffle with the colored boys.
Soon thereafter his brother Freddie quits.
If the Kaisers were right-wing anti black etc then isn't this a great choice to use as an insider to set up the 6th floor the day before?
Or maybe it makes it appear as though Lee was set up by Kaiser trying to incriminate Jarman, Williams or Norman



Need to look into this - Thanks Ed,


Outstanding!

I wonder if the new Oliver Stone documentary mentions Prayer Man. Anybody knows?

Enduring questions.
 
The night following the assassination two FBI agents visited Lovelady at his home. They showed him a blow-up photo (Altgens 6) and immediately Lovelady identified himself. The FBI agents seemed relieved, "one had a big smile on his face because it wasn't Oswald."
 
If Oswald wasn't claiming to be out in front, why the great relief? According to Fritz, Wade, et al. the case was cinched without a scintilla of doubt Oswald was the sixth floor shooter. Hell, Wade was already talking electric chair.
 
The FBI agents were relieved because Oswald WAS claiming to be down in front. And they weren't sure of the extent of evidence out there to support his claims. That made them uneasy because they knew, in the words of J Edgar Hoover to LBJ on 11.23, "The evidence that they have at the present time is not very very strong."  
 
Imagine if the best Darnell frame would have been put out on the wire the evening of November 22. The FBI would have been shitting bricks trying to explain that one away.
 
Prayer Man is Oswald. No other credible explanation.

That about sums up the whole charade right there Stan. There is and was no other explanation for the mad panic by the FBI agents trying to verify that the person in the Altgen's 6 photograph was Lovelady. Remember Ol' mate Wesley Frazier when asked about PM in the the Darnell pic said the figure atop of the steps standing to Wesley's right hand side looked like Lovelady but could not have been him because he'd headed down to the Railway yards.

It makes one ask how is it the FBI agents came about singling out Lovelady to ask that question. Why did they know to go see Lovelady about the man in Altgens 6? You're dead right - because they'd all heard of Oswald's alibi. They must've been petrified that Oswald's alibi had been caught on camera. 

It had just not in the Altgen's pic!

Vinny wrote:I wonder if the new Oliver Stone documentary mentions Prayer Man. Anybody knows?

From all accounts - NO, Vinny. I'm making that assumption based on the reviews.

So on EF they are discussing the fact that the Harvard Crimson is convinced by the Stone film that the single bullet theory is bull(et)shit. If media does finally accept this, then the associated deep and elaborate coverup that it represents does open the door to what is an equally deep and elaborate coverup of the fact that Oswald was on the front steps during the shooting, the Second Floor encounter was the First Floor vestibule encounter relocated, and on and on. Who knows, maybe it's a crack in the dike.

Thanks Mick.

Jake_Sykes wrote:So on EF they are discussing the fact that the Harvard Crimson is convinced by the Stone film that the single bullet theory is bull(et)shit. If media does finally accept this, then the associated deep and elaborate coverup that it represents does open the door to what is an equally deep and elaborate coverup of the fact that Oswald was on the front steps during the shooting, the Second Floor encounter was the First Floor vestibule encounter relocated, and on and on. Who knows, maybe it's a crack in the dike.

That's the hope, Jake. The documentary will have served a purpose if it does.

Otherwise and with all due respect, making a documentary based on the 2017-18 files releases with no smoking guns in them, and a book which was last updated nearly 10 years ago, might seem a little counterintuitive. 

Imagine the documentary that could be made from the material here. I know. Sour grapes. I'll accept that. 

But looping back... it really is the hope that this opens doors, if not minds as well.

greg_parker wrote:

Jake_Sykes wrote:So on EF they are discussing the fact that the Harvard Crimson is convinced by the Stone film that the single bullet theory is bull(et)shit. If media does finally accept this, then the associated deep and elaborate coverup that it represents does open the door to what is an equally deep and elaborate coverup of the fact that Oswald was on the front steps during the shooting, the Second Floor encounter was the First Floor vestibule encounter relocated, and on and on. Who knows, maybe it's a crack in the dike.

That's the hope, Jake. The documentary will have served a purpose if it does.

Otherwise and with all due respect, making a documentary based on the 2017-18 files releases with no smoking guns in them, and a book which was last updated nearly 10 years ago, might seem a little counterintuitive. 

Imagine the documentary that could be made from the material here. I know. Sour grapes. I'll accept that. 

But looping back... it really is the hope that this opens doors, if not minds as well.

Harvard Crimson seems like a decent start, what with their Harvard cred and all. Interesting to note that this publication has no stake in the matter, unlike the big three networks who don't wish to out their own dirty laundry. Seems it will take more innocent and credible outlets to climb on board before the bigs are forced to knuckle under. It is the hope.

Ed, my thinking was also taking into consideration that Oswald left the scene so quickly. If he was interested enough to watch the parade, one would think he would stick around to find out what happened, especially since the building he worked in had become the focus of attention.

Roger Craig’s attention was drawn to the Oswald or “Oswald lookalike” getting into the Rambler by a shrill whistle. What aroused his suspicion was the fact that they were leaving the scene while everyone was headed towards the scene. Although some say Craig changed his story over the years, it is definitely established that he reported this incident to others that day.

Leaving the scene so quickly would tend to draw attention to oneself. And yes, this is speculation.

lanceman wrote:Ed, my thinking was also taking into consideration that Oswald left the scene so quickly. If he was interested enough to watch the parade, one would think he would stick around to find out what happened, especially since the building he worked in had become the focus of attention.

Roger Craig’s attention was drawn to the Oswald or “Oswald lookalike” getting into the Rambler by a shrill whistle. What aroused his suspicion was the fact that they were leaving the scene while everyone was headed towards the scene. Although some say Craig changed his story over the years, it is definitely established that he reported this incident to others that day.

Leaving the scene so quickly would tend to draw attention to oneself. And yes, this is speculation.

There are three possible scenarios (leaving out Buell's BS).

He left somewhere between 90 and 2 minutes after the shots per the WC and caught a bus.

He left 10 to 15 minutes later by car per Craig.

He left at an unknown time after being cleared to leave by Truly and Det. Kaminski and caught a bus or a ride.

The third can't be tied to the second option because in the third option, he leaves through the front door.

The WC version is as much BS ab Buell's.

The second version is possible, but Oswald seems to have been genuinely confused by the allegation. According to testimony, Craig gave all the details to Fritz in the outer office. When they both went in, apparently all that was said was...

Craig to Fritz - "That's him".

Fritz to Oswald - "This man saw you leave."

Oswald to Fritz - "I already told you people I left"

Fritz to Oswald - "Well, we are just trying to work out what happened What about the station wagon?"

Oswald to Fritz - "That station wagon belongs to Ruth Paine Don't bring her into this".

The above is all from memory, but the gist is that Fritz gave no context to his bringing up a station wagon and the only person Lee knows with a station wagon is Ruth, so he assumes he is talking about her. And that would have confused him because he already told them he had left by bus, so he is not connecting the station wagon with his leaving work - especially as I said, when Fritz himself did not give that context.

There is also the fact that Lee was a generic young male.  Look at the long list of people who allegedly look like him or were possibly mistaken for him. Mike Paine, Larry Crafard, a couple of white guys working with Cuban groups,  one or two members of CUSA... and an unknown number others in the records.

The best evidence is the stuff that got buried along with other stuff that was lied about which together, points to option three. In that scenario, the police were setting up to clear the building. Oswald just happened to be first to be cleared. Someone had to be first, so I don't find that suspicious. What I do find suspicious is that after clearing him to leave, Truly went and reported him as "missing".

The best evidence is the stuff that got buried along with other stuff that was lied about which together, points to option three. In that scenario, the police were setting up to clear the building. Oswald just happened to be first to be cleared. Someone had to be first, so I don't find that suspicious. What I do find suspicious is that after clearing him to leave, Truly went and reported him as "missing".


Greg, and that's the greatest indicator that Truly was involved in setting Lee Oswald up as a man who had taken flight. And that makes Roy Truly a key person of interest in my opinion.
Truly had no business to report the boy as missing. He was at the door with Kaminski and had cleared him to leave. That means Truly was the inside man at the TSBD in my view.

Mick_Purdy wrote:The best evidence is the stuff that got buried along with other stuff that was lied about which together, points to option three. In that scenario, the police were setting up to clear the building. Oswald just happened to be first to be cleared. Someone had to be first, so I don't find that suspicious. What I do find suspicious is that after clearing him to leave, Truly went and reported him as "missing".


Greg, and that's the greatest indicator that Truly was involved in setting Lee Oswald up as a man who had taken flight. And that makes Roy Truly a key person of interest in my opinion.
Truly had no business to report the boy as missing. He was at the door with Kaminski and had cleared him to leave. That means Truly was the inside man at the TSBD in my view.

Yep. Unsurprisingly his role with Kaminski at the door was never mentioned by him or anyone else. It survived only because the Texas AG kept his own file on the investigation.

Once you accept his inside status, other aspects of Truly's past take on more meaning. His blood relationship to Korth's wife, his wife's blood relationship to Claire Chennault, and his and Shelley's WWII work in defense industries which were riddled with FBI and military informants.

In the translation posted by Bill Simpich on EF of the Oliver Stone interview by the French magazine "Paris Match", Stone is quoted as saying "...And Oswald always claimed he was on the second floor, not the sixth....".

I don't believe it is credibly reported anywhere that he maintained he was on the 2nd Floor. They even have Oliver Stone brainwashed. Best evidence says he was out watching the "P. Parade", and "out front with Bill Shelley".

Even if Stone was a lap behind he should of held the position Lee was on the first floor...
Yet I still want to watch the 4 hour version.

Jake_Sykes wrote:In the translation posted by Bill Simpich on EF of the Oliver Stone interview by the French magazine "Paris Match", Stone is quoted as saying "...And Oswald always claimed he was on the second floor, not the sixth....".

I don't believe it is credibly reported anywhere that he maintained he was on the 2nd Floor. They even have Oliver Stone brainwashed. Best evidence says he was out watching the "P. Parade", and "out front with Bill Shelley".

Extremely disappointing.

Just imagine if Stone has included PM in his documentary. And mentioned that NBC is refusing to release the original footage which could be used to settle the matter once and for all. Perhaps even suggest that his viewers write to NBC and request that the original films be released. Could perhaps have led to something happening. Alas such a wasted oppurtunity.

Am also disappointed that Jim Di did not ask Stone to mention PM.

Has Jim Di expressed his views on PM?

Has anyone outside the online JFK research community expressed a view? The answer would be a resounding NO. Because PM has been painted as something toxic outside this forums boundaries. By people with vested interests, by nasty, ego driven, deceitful charlatans who pretend to be interested in the truth.

The truth lays within the Weigman and Darnell frames, the employee affidavits, along with all the documents from the interrogations which show that Lee Oswald maintained he was out front at the time the President passed by the TSBD and that he'd been on the first floor of the building just prior to the assassination.

I think it is absolute proof of media complicity in the cover up as the main stream runs stories on wild red herring strawmen conspiracy nonsense narrated in its typical admonishing voice.

Of course the powers that be produce media on ridiculous conspiracy theories...
as the truth or PMs identity is the third rail mate!

SO NOT A PEEP from the USA Today bunch or even less connected CIA affiliates

Take it as a bare knuckles fight the other side has forfeited before the match.
Ed

lanceman wrote:Has Jim Di expressed his views on PM?

 Yes he has. Check out the thread below. He mentions PM several times.


https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t388-prayer-man-on-the-education-forum

From Marina's Wikipedia page.

That's one for the team! Thanks for that Vinny

Wiki can't ignore the mountain of evidence

IT'S LEE

Ed.Ledoux wrote:That's one for the team! Thanks for that Vinny

Wiki can't ignore the mountain of evidence

IT'S LEE

This was added last month. Have no idea who by, but probably the same person who added that to Marina's page.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_conspiracy_theories#Prayer_man

It's here as well
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Harvey_Oswald#Prayer_man

It is great that they are up and so far, have stayed up. But I am getting credit where I shouldn't be. This was 100% Sean. I wasn't even on board till about half way through the ed forum thread - and not fullly on board until Jake pointed out the illusion caused by the glass behind him.  Then the Hosty notes were a giant cherry on top.

It was my work on the 2nd floor encounter that got Sean looking for images to back it up, but that is about as close as I get to any involvement. 

So if the author is reading this, please consider that Sean alone came up with it and people like Bart have really nailed it down since. Or even just ROKC generally, because others here have also influenced where it has landed.

Yes but Sean was inspired by your work on the lunchroom encounter. That led him to search for Oswald's whereabouts during the shooting and ultimately to the discovery of PM.