Randle & Frazier Contradictions

First topic message reminder :

Contradiction Number One: The Direction of Frazier's Car

During the Warren Commission testimony of Linnie Mae Randle, the sister of Buell Wesley Frazier, the following exchange took place between her and Joseph Ball:

Mr. BALL. Did you see him go to the car? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. 
Mr. BALL. What did he do? 
Mrs. RANDLE. He opened the right back door and I just saw that he was laying the package down so I closed the door?

Randle very specifically picked out the "right back door" of Frazier's car as the one that Oswald opened and placed the brown paper package inside that she claimed she saw him carrying.

The Warren Commission published the photograph below of the Randle house depicting the location and direction of Buell Wesley Frazier's car that morning:



The right rear door of Frazier's car is furthest away from where Randle claims she watched Oswald from in the official photograph above.  Remember that Randle also had to look through the slats of wood of the carport to see him as well as past the other car parked in the carport itself.  The kitchen window she says Oswald waved at her through can also be seen.

Linnie Mae Randle in a March 9, 1964, interview with the FBI went on to change the direction the car was facing that she claims she originally gave in error.  The car was now facing west rather than east:



The strange thing about this is J. Lee Rankin made a written request of the FBI on March 3rd, 1964, that photographs of the Randle house and of the location of Frazier's car be taken and sent to the Warren Commission.  The above photograph is one of those requested. Six days later Randle changed her original statement concerning the direction of the car.  Her new recollections now matched the photograph taken by the FBI.  Instead of facing the fence, the car was now facing the street.

But even more worrying is this quote from Frazier's FBI interview with Special Agent Harrison on November 23, 1963:



As you can see, very early on Frazier claimed he backed his car out of the driveway indicating that it was in fact headed east and not west which would raise some real questions about which car door Randle claims she saw Oswald opening. Which was it?

And the answer will be compounded by Frazier's HSCA interview statement that Oswald only gained access to his locked car because one of the rear doors was broken.  But which one?  Or am I asking too many questions about a story that is just simply another big pile of shite?

Next Up: The Distance Oswald Walked Ahead of Frazier After Arriving At Work

Key word is 'ordered' but did they ship a 36" or a 40" rifle?
Can't quite fit a 40 incher in a 38 inch bag.

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=7771.0
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Linnie Mae Randle was looking out of her kitchen window when she saw Oswald cross the street, carrying the “heavy brown bag.” The FBI presented Randle with a “replica” brown paper bag and it was folded over until it reached “the proper length of the sack as seen by her on November 22, 1963.” Her estimate was measured at 27 inches long, exactly the same as that of her brother. (24H407- On March 11, 1964, when Randle appeared before the commission, she was asked to fold the bag again. Validating her earlier estimate, the resultant length was 28 ½ inches. (2H248-50) Perhaps most importantly, she testifed that Oswald carried the package with his hand at the top "and it almost touched the ground as he carried it." (2H248) If Oswald had been carrying a package of nearly 3 feet long with his hand at the top, unless he had the world's shortest arms, it would have been dragging on the ground! In fact, it would have extended beyond it.

Frazier and Randle were the only two witnesses who saw Oswald carrying the package that morning and both repeatedly stated that it was about 27-28 inches long. On December 1, 1963, Frazier was asked by FBI agents to mark the point on the back seat of his car that the bag had reached when Oswald had put it there with one end against the door. The FBI “determined that this spot was 27 inches from the inside of the right rear door” (24H408-9). Frazier was also certain that Oswald had carried the package with one end cupped in his hand and the other tucked under his arm. Even broken down the rifle was 34.8 inches long (R133) and would have been impossible for Oswald or anyone else to carry in this manner.

The only consistent non-conflicting statements by BWF and LMR are the supposed length of "That Bag" at 27"
Her estimate was measured at 27 inches long, exactly the same as that of her brother. (24H407-

LMR home diagram
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce441.jpg

Image showing Paine and Randle home
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce438.jpg

Shows diagram of the view from the window.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce440.jpg
or
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/pdf/WH26_CE_3118.pdf


Oswald's Navy Club Bag (Zippered Bag) is documented and separately photographed on pages 27-28-29:
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records/100-16601/100-16601%20Sub%20A-1/100-16601%20Sub%201A03.pdf

http://media.nara.gov/media/images/33/33/33-3284a.gif

No such luck with Duffel (Duffle) or Sea Bags.

If Mother was living at the Randle's and Bill and two kids in a two bedroom ranch home...where did they all sleep. Did the kids sleep in the same room as LMR and Bill, or with Mom in the other bedroom.
I know BWF slept on the floor, but which floor? In the living room or in the Dining area?

I am questioning BWF's habits.
What was BWF doing with all the savings he was accumulating by not paying for an apartment?
Seems it would be cheap and convenient to get a room at the same boarding house as Lee, a room with a bed.


The baby blanket
..






Babies favorite blanket tossed on the dirty, sawdust covered garage floor!? Wrapping a oiled up rifle?
Seems a bit of a stretch Marina or Lee would ruin a 'baby blanket'. Or 'sMarina would not wash it once they arrived at the Paine house...Oh wait it was clean

Ed. Ledoux wrote:

Linnie Mae Randle was looking out of her kitchen window when she saw Oswald cross the street, carrying the “heavy brown bag.” The FBI presented Randle with a “replica” brown paper bag and it was folded over until it reached “the proper length of the sack as seen by her on November 22, 1963.” Her estimate was measured at 27 inches long, exactly the same as that of her brother. (24H407- On March 11, 1964, when Randle appeared before the commission, she was asked to fold the bag again. Validating her earlier estimate, the resultant length was 28 ½ inches. (2H248-50) Perhaps most importantly, she testifed that Oswald carried the package with his hand at the top "and it almost touched the ground as he carried it." (2H248) If Oswald had been carrying a package of nearly 3 feet long with his hand at the top, unless he had the world's shortest arms, it would have been dragging on the ground! In fact, it would have extended beyond it.

Frazier and Randle were the only two witnesses who saw Oswald carrying the package that morning and both repeatedly stated that it was about 27-28 inches long. On December 1, 1963, Frazier was asked by FBI agents to mark the point on the back seat of his car that the bag had reached when Oswald had put it there with one end against the door. The FBI “determined that this spot was 27 inches from the inside of the right rear door” (24H408-9). Frazier was also certain that Oswald had carried the package with one end cupped in his hand and the other tucked under his arm. Even broken down the rifle was 34.8 inches long (R133) and would have been impossible for Oswald or anyone else to carry in this manner.

Hey, I recognize those two paragraphs...Don't I get credit?

Ed. Ledoux wrote:Key word is 'ordered' but did they ship a 36" or a 40" rifle?
Can't quite fit a 40 incher in a 38 inch bag.

My point exactly - what if the "bag" was manufactured before the rifle had been received, based on the advertised length of 36" (if it actually ever existed prior to the assassination at all, of course)?

Martin Hay wrote:

Ed. Ledoux wrote:

Linnie Mae Randle was looking out of her kitchen window when she saw Oswald cross the street, carrying the “heavy brown bag.” The FBI presented Randle with a “replica” brown paper bag and it was folded over until it reached “the proper length of the sack as seen by her on November 22, 1963.” Her estimate was measured at 27 inches long, exactly the same as that of her brother. (24H407- On March 11, 1964, when Randle appeared before the commission, she was asked to fold the bag again. Validating her earlier estimate, the resultant length was 28 ½ inches. (2H248-50) Perhaps most importantly, she testifed that Oswald carried the package with his hand at the top "and it almost touched the ground as he carried it." (2H248) If Oswald had been carrying a package of nearly 3 feet long with his hand at the top, unless he had the world's shortest arms, it would have been dragging on the ground! In fact, it would have extended beyond it.

Frazier and Randle were the only two witnesses who saw Oswald carrying the package that morning and both repeatedly stated that it was about 27-28 inches long. On December 1, 1963, Frazier was asked by FBI agents to mark the point on the back seat of his car that the bag had reached when Oswald had put it there with one end against the door. The FBI “determined that this spot was 27 inches from the inside of the right rear door” (24H408-9). Frazier was also certain that Oswald had carried the package with one end cupped in his hand and the other tucked under his arm. Even broken down the rifle was 34.8 inches long (R133) and would have been impossible for Oswald or anyone else to carry in this manner.

Hey, I recognize those two paragraphs...Don't I get credit?

Here you go Martin!
Must have missed adding the link:
http://themysteriesofdealeyplaza.blogspot.com/2010/08/lee-harvey-oswald-patsy.html

ianlloyd wrote:

Ed. Ledoux wrote:Key word is 'ordered' but did they ship a 36" or a 40" rifle?
Can't quite fit a 40 incher in a 38 inch bag.

My point exactly - what if the "bag" was manufactured before the rifle had been received, based on the advertised length of 36" (if it actually ever existed prior to the assassination at all, of course)?

Agreed   

Or if the bag was used for a 36" or shorter rifle, just not "our" rifle.

Or the bag was made for another purpose before it was 'turned into' a rifle case by DPD. Did not have to be curtain rods.

Lee Farley wrote:

Albert Rossi wrote:Lee, this is off topic, but since you propose that Lee was not at 1026 N. Beckley, what's you're explanation for this list?  That is, how do you see it originating?

I'm still mulling it over in my head, Albert.  The issue of the duffel bag might appear small but I think it's important.

We have the unidentified police car honking its horn outside the house after "Oswald" arrives there at approximately 1pm.  I'm as convinced as I could be that this car was car number 107 - a police car technically unaccounted for after its arrival at the TSBD and the car that Detective Gerald Hill had access to.  Hill is also known as Officer Everwhere within a small band of critics because he appeared at every single point that dodgy evidence reared its head.  We have evidence that the Dallas Police were officially at 1026 North Beckley far too early for the official timeline to support.  We have the master of memory Will Fritz having a brain burp when it came to remembering who told him about the 1026 North Beckley address and when he was told.  We have a variation in the story given by Arthur and Gladys Johnson concerning events that afternoon when it came to how Lee Oswald was identified as their mysterious tenant O.H. Lee that I will share the details of tomorrow because I only discovered it a few nights ago.

Now, we get to a bit of an avenue here where my good friend Greg Parker and I don't see eye to eye.  I think there is a good chance that Oswald lived from October 7th until November 22d at the home of Mary Esther Bledsoe.  Bledsoe was the landlady that he only officially lived with for one week before moving to 1026 North Beckley.  I think it possible he never moved out of that property.  I believe Larry Crafard lived at 1026 North Beckley.  I believe it likely that Crafard shot J. D. Tippit and I believe that once the name Lee Oswald entered the American consciousness that afternoon then hand picked Dallas Police officers such Harry Olsen quickly turned up at 1026 North Beckley and moved certain items into the property, and moved certain items out using an unofficial search as the pretext.  Once the official search began after a search warrant had been issued Oswald's stuff was already in the room.  

I don't know whether that sounds far fetched to you but many of the pieces of the jigsaw fall into place by using this as the paradigm versus some of the real bullshit we are asked to swallow instead.

P.S. He will forgive me for saying this but Greg P is the expert to answer your syphilis question. 

  

ROBERT OSWALD made available all other property of LEE HARVEY OSWALD still in his possession, which be obtained from the  home of RUTH PAINE on December 8, 1963 including a sea bag.
And also a Val-Pak suitcase. (Should be a Val-a-pak suitcase)

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/WH25_CE_2557.pdf

So two sea bags turned into one sea bag which has not been photographed.

Val-a-pak suitcase of this type:
http://myoldadz.com/images/valapak19410519.jpg
http://www.cabinfevermd.com/html/ebaypics/maValAPackLuggage.jpg

Just noticed an error in my post linked to Ed's.

It was Patrol Car 207 and not 107 that I believe pulled up outside the Be kley rooming house.

Thanks to Ed for finding the document pertaining to the suitcase.  You could fit a body in one of those Val-a-Pak suitcases.

Mahalo Lee,


Follow The Luggage!

The Warren Commission wanted to prove the two bags found in Ruth Paine's garage were the same bags that Eric Rogers saw Oswald carry to the bus after leaving his apartment on September 24. Warren Commission attorney Liebeler showed Rogers photographs of a zippered bag (CE 126; Vol XVI, p 494) and a thin, canvas, bag with the chalk marking "9/26" on the side (Rogers Ex. No. 1; Vol XXI, p 313).
Rogers, Eric (neighbor Oswalds New Orleans)
CE 1154 (p 7) 1915 Rogers Exhibit



Mr. LIEBELER. So it is clear to you that Oswald did not leave with the ladies in the station wagon?
Mr. ROGERS. No; he didn't leave with them in the station wagon. It was the following evening he left on the bus with these two handbags.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was in the evening?
Mr. ROGERS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He ran across the street and got on the bus?
Mr. ROGERS. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he get on the bus at the bus stop?
Mr. ROGERS. Bus stop on the corner right opposite.
Mr. LIEBELER. Toward the center of the city?
Mr. ROGERS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the bags that he had in his hand when he went out?
Mr. ROGERS. My wife seen some of them.
Mr. LIEBELER. (handing pictures to witness). Let me show you some pictures and see if these look like it.
Mr. ROGERS. (indicating).This middle one, I know that ain't the type there. That's not the type.
Mr. LIEBELER. (handing picture to witness).I show you a picture of a bag that has been marked as "Commission Exhibit No. 126," and ask you if that looks like the bag.
Mr. ROGERS. That's it. That's it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does that look like one of the bags?
Mr. ROGERS. That looks to me like it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. (handing picture to witness).Now I show you a picture which we will mark Rogers Exhibit No. 1, showing two views of a bag. Does it look like the one Oswald had?
Mr. ROGERS. You mean--he had two of them.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many did he have?
Mr. ROGERS. He had two of them in my estimation, each one in one hand. They looked like these here to me, to my knowledge. I mean, yes. I don't think it was this type [indicating]. I would say this type [indicating].
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are pointing to No. A-l, which is a picture of Commission Exhibit No. 126 and do you think he had two bags that looked like "Commission Exhibit No. 126." Did he carry both in one hand?
Mr. ROGERS. One in each hand.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you can tell, he did not have a bag similar to Rogers Exhibit No. 1?
Mr. ROGERS. No, no. It was kind of daylight. You could see. You know what I mean?
Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you sure that he didn't have one like Rogers Exhibit No. 17 Is it a different size?
Mr. ROGERS. It was--they both look like the same size, and they were well packed. They were well stuffed. I know they wasn't light. I don't know what he had in them.
Mr. LIEBELER. So in your estimation, he had two bags like Exhibit 126?
Mr. ROGERS. If I am not mistaken, they are the two bags that my wife and I identified when they came over to the house, somebody from Oklahoma. He was transferred down here.
Mr. LIEBELER. An FBI agent?
Mr. ROGERS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. They actually brought the bags over?
Mr. ROGERS. They had the pictures like this.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he show you pictures like these two that I have got here?
Mr. ROGERS. Sure did.
Mr. LIEBELER. They had bags like Exhibit 126?
Mr. ROGERS. Yes. This is the type. That's the green type of looking luggage.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say again that he did not have a bag that looked like Rogers Exhibit No. 1?
Mr. ROGERS. Yes.




Blue Suitcase composition type 26x16x8 (DPD#288):
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/b/b5/Photo_wcd102_049.jpg

I noticed McAdams gloss over the missing luggage as if losing bags from NY to Atlanta to Dallas TX was nothing to worry about...

mcadams.posc.mu.edu/luggage.htm‎

By December 1963 Oswald' baggage is down to a Val-a-pak, one sea bag and the blue/black zippered bag...yeah nothing to see here!

The sea bag:

Commission wrote:
Marina and June [the Oswald's 18-month old daughter] departed with Mrs. Ruth Paine for Irving [Texas] on the morning of September 23 [1963]. Before she left, Oswald told Marina that she should not tell anyone about his impending trip to Mexico. Marina kept this secret until after the assassination. On the previous day, Oswald's landlord had seen Mrs. Paine's car being packed and had asked Oswald, whose rent was about 15 days overdue, whether he was leaving. Oswald told him that Marina was leaving temporarily but that he would remain. A neighbor testified that on the evening of September 24, he saw Oswald, carrying two pieces of luggage, hurriedly leave the Magazine Street apartment and board a bus. Though uncertain of the exact date, a city busdriver recalls that at the same time of day and at the same location he picked up a man who was carrying two suitcases of different sizes, and helped him place them so that they would not disturb the other passengers. The driver remembers that the man asked directions to the Greyhound bus station. He discharged the passenger at an intersection where he could board a Canal Street car and transfer to another bus which would go past the Greyhound and Continental Trailways stations. The landlord found Oswald's apartment vacant on September 25.
                                           (Associated Press edition, 1964, p. 320)

This sounds like the Val-a-pak and Blue zippered bag.
A-1 (CE-126) Blue zippered bag and CE-127 Blue Suitcase
Not C-254 (also know as the BEE 4 green bag) or SEA BAG was carried away by LHO per the landlord.

Mrs. PAINE - He was fully packed. I was evidently expected. I and my car, because he asked if I could take these bags and duffel bags, suitcases, to the bus station for him.
....
Representative FORD - But there were some things that were packed in the things that Lee was going to take with him that would include things--
Mrs. PAINE - That belonged--
Representative FORD - To--to Marina and to June?
Mrs. PAINE - I would judge so simply by what remained. Surely it was not the total sum of her clothing and June's clothing.
Representative FORD - Which could lead a person to the conclusion that at one stage of their discussion Marina was going to accompany Lee to New Orleans.
Mrs. PAINE - Not from the time I arrived.
Representative FORD - From the station.
Mrs. PAINE - It was clear she would stay up in the apartment.
Mr. JENNER - Up to that time it appeared to you from what was in the duffelbag.
Mrs. PAINE - I think he was carrying all he could to lighten her burden. In other words, if and when she followed, he was carrying all he could.
Mr. JENNER - Representative Ford is interested in this, Mrs. Paine.
Mr. DULLES - I am puzzled, too.
Mr. JENNER - When you arrived at the Oswald apartment that morning, Lee Oswald had duffelbags packed and some--
Mrs. PAINE - Suitcases.
Mr. JENNER - Suitcases. He had in those suitcases and in the duffelbag some of the apparel for Mrs. Marina?
Mrs. PAINE - Of course, I did not see it. I have to guess what was in it.
....
Mr. JENNER - Now, Mrs. Paine, the staff is interested in Lee Harvey Oswald's luggage.
Mrs. PAINE - What?
Mr. JENNER - His luggage.
Mrs. PAINE - Luggage.
Mr. JENNER - Would you please, to the best of your recollection, tell us what pieces of luggage he had on that occasion, what they looked like, their shape and form?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. He had two large marine duffelbags with his name on them, and probably his Marine serial number. It was marked with a good deal of white paint. It stood quite high.
Mr. JENNER - Were they up-ended when you say high? You mean standing on end, they were high?
Mrs. PAINE - Standing on their end they would come well above this table.
Mr. JENNER - I see. About 40 inches?
Mrs. PAINE - Something like that; I would guess so.
Mr. JENNER - Excuse me, I am interested in just that. Would you go over to the drawing board and move your hand, judge from the floor, and stop right there? We will measure that later.
Mrs. PAINE - Understand I saw those two later in my garage.
Mr. JENNER - I understand, and I will get to that. That is just about 45 inches, and there were two of them?
Mrs. PAINE - There were two of them. Do you want anything about the rest of the luggage? Does that interest you the most?
Mr. JENNER - Yes, I am interested, and I would like to stick with the duffel-bags for a moment. Was there any appearance as to either duffelbag, which, to you, would indicate some long, slim, hard----
Mrs. PAINE - I assume them to be both full of clothes, very rounded.
Mr. JENNER - I 'don't wish to be persistent, but was there anything that you saw about the duffelbags that lead you at that time to even think for an instant that there was anything long, slim and hard like a pole?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Or a gun, a rifle?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - No? Nothing?
Mrs. PAINE - Nothing. I did not move these bags.
Mr. JENNER - To the extent you saw them is all I am inquiring about. You did not touch them, you did not lift them, but you saw them.
Mrs. PAINE - I did.
Mr. JENNER - There appeared--the entire circumference of these bags which you could see was smooth?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, smooth, bumpy, but irregular.
Mr. JENNER - But no stick, no hard surface. Now, what about the diameter of these bags, these duffelbags, what would you say it was?
Mrs. PAINE - About like this, 15, 18, 20 inches across.
Mr. JENNER - Eighteen, twenty inches across?
Mrs. PAINE - Probably more than that.
Mr. JENNER - This is 15 inches.
Mrs. PAINE - About like this; a little more than 15, probably.
Mr. JENNER - About 18 inches. Now, how many pieces of luggage in addition to the two duffelbags?
Mrs. PAINE - Quite a few. There were probably three suitcases.
Mr. JENNER - Three suitcases?
Mrs. PAINE - Or more. A small radio bought in Russia.
Mr. JENNER - I want to stick with the luggage.
Mrs. PAINE - All right.
Mr. JENNER - Three suitcases?
Mrs. PAINE - I think so, two or three, and a large softsided suitcase, I don't know what to call it. It zips around the side.
Mr. JENNER - Zipper case?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, made of canvas.
Mr. JENNER - We would like to have you describe that zipper case.
Mrs. PAINE - It is green----
Mr. JENNER - I am interrupting you, I am sorry. Were there any other pieces of luggage, first?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER - So there were two or three or possibly four, is that true, suitcases?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And there was a zipper case?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Describe this zipper case to us first.
Mrs. PAINE - It stood about so high [indicating].
Mr. JENNER - So high is 15 inches, about 30 inches long?
Mrs. PAINE - Not quite, about that long [indicating].
Mr. JENNER - It was a generous sized zipper case?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. With generally green canvas and leather, dark-colored leather.
Mr. JENNER - Black or brown do you remember the color?
Mrs. PAINE - Dark brown, I guess, or black, certainly very dark.
Mr. JENNER - It was a generous sized one, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did it appear to be well packed?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Would you describe each of the three suitcases now, with particular reference to the staff being interested in whether they were rectangular, whether they were hard boarded types of things, or whether they were canvas or soft?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't remember how many there were. I recall they had a hard composition kind of suitcase such as you don't buy here, and I judge they were bought in the Soviet Union. I think there may have been two of those.
Mr. JENNER - Was any one of them rectangular in shape?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. That was rectangular.
Mr. JENNER - The one you specifically have in mind, he did have a rectangular one?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And what color was it?
Mrs. PAINE - Dark, blackish green, or dark brown, something of this nature.
Mr. JENNER - Anything else you can think about it in the way of description?
Mrs. PAINE - I think it had--it was reinforced, corners, with rivets, or bolts, of something to hold it, hold the corners on it.
Mr. DULLES - How long was this rectangular suitcase?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall. In fact, I can't recall whether it was one or two, but something like that, normal suitcases.
Mr. JENNER - Mr. Chairman, may I have your permission to approach the witness?
Mr. McCLOY - And take the measurements?
Mrs. PAINE - And take the measurements.
Mr. McCLOY - The witness may be approached.
Mrs. PAINE - That or larger, I would say.
Mr. JENNER - You are now describing the length of the rectangular suitcase, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And that would be 2 1/2 inches?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - That is your best recollection?
Mrs. PAINE - I am brief in my recollection, a normal rectangular shape here.
Mr. JENNER - Width, that is the side, you mean?
Mrs. PAINE - That is the whole thing. That is looking at the top. How high it is.
Mr. JENNER - No; wide.
Mrs. PAINE - I am filling it out. This would be the width then from here to here, possibly more.
Mr. JENNER - Fourteen inches?
Mrs. PAINE - I am not sure I am recalling one or two at the same time. I have to be under oath, and giving you details on things I don't recall that well.
Mr. JENNER - All we are seeking is your best recollection.
Mrs. PAINE - All right, that is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER - Twenty-one and a half times fourteen, and how high was it?
Mrs. PAINE - About so, 6, about 6.
Mr. JENNER - I said high. Was this lying flat on its side when you saw it?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, all these things again I saw in the fall, so it is a mixed recollection.
Mr. JENNER - I am going to get as to what you saw in the fall, but it is important to us as to what you saw on this occasion.
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I particularly recall the duffels because they are unusual, and I recall this bag being, I judge Russian make rather than American, it was a large zipper bag.
Mr. JENNER - And Mrs. Paine, you do recall that zipper bag on this occasion?
Mrs. PAINE - I believe so.
Mr. JENNER - And there was at least one, if not more than one, rectangular--
Mrs. PAINE - I can't be certain of the zipper bag.
Mr. JENNER - Hard-sided suitcase?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; hard-sided suitcase. I can't be certain, absolutely certain, of the zipper bag. I recall seeing so much of it since, tripped over it numerous times, that it may be just that I recalled it. I didn't move this luggage at all.
Mr. JENNER - I am not suggesting that you did.
Mrs. PAINE - I am sorry I can't remember it better.
Mr. JENNER - Were all of these suitcases about the same size and shape?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - You have described the rectangular one. Would you now describe the second, the second in order of your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, there was at least another rectangular one.
Mr. JENNER - Hard-sided?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Was it larger or smaller than the one you have described?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall with certainty.
Mr. JENNER - Was there a third?
Mrs. PAINE - There may have been a third. I certainly recall this radio that was unusual. The others I don't.
Mr. JENNER - It is possible you might be confused between the radio case and a suitcase.
Mrs. PAINE - No, no; no possibility of that.
Mr. JENNER - All right. He checked all these articles, checked them into the bus station?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And did you and Lee and Marina return to their home?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - Did you remain there?
Mrs. PAINE - No. He then helped pack up the remaining things, the playpen. the bed, and then we left there midafternoon, perhaps 4, all of this must have taken quite a long time, because--
Mr. JENNER - They removed everything from their home?
Mrs. PAINE - They removed everything that remained to them.
Mr. JENNER - Put it in the station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE - Put it in the station wagon and went with Lee and Marina.
Mr. JENNER - Your station wagon was big enough to hold everything in the house, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, they had no furniture, but it held all the rest of their things; yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did he do the packing?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - What were you doing in the meantime?
Mrs. PAINE - Packing was haphazard, this packing was haphazard; put the dishes in a box and carried it out to the car.
Mr. JENNER - It was in the open so you could see what went into your car?
Mrs. PAINE - I think so. I certainly then repacked it to go to New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER - Well, I want to stick with this occasion, please.
Mrs. PAINE - All right.
Mr. JENNER - Was there a rifle packed in the back of the car?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - You didn't see any kind of weapon?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Firearm, rifle, pistol, or otherwise?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I saw nothing of that nature.
Mr. JENNER - Did you drive them to your home?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Were the materials and things in your station wagon unpacked and placed in your home?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; immediately.
Mr. JENNER - Did you see that being done, were you present?
Mrs. PAINE - I helped do it; yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did you see any weapon on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Whether a rifle, pistol or--
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Or any covering, any package, that looked as though it might have a weapon, pistol, or firearm?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
.....
Mr. DULLES - When you unloaded Marina's things and the baby's things, did this subtract one suitcase from this number you have indicated? Was one of the suitcases delegated to her things or were they Just loose in the car?
Mrs. PAINE - Insofar as I remember, I believe they were loose.
Mr. DULLES - They were loose. So that the number of suitcases you have indicated were those that were eventually checked and taken by Lee Harvey Oswald to New Orleans.
Mrs. PAINE - Well, that is the way I remember it. It does not seem reasonable that he would go off without leaving her a suitcase to put her things in, so I would guess there was something for her in the nature, perhaps, of a small bag.
Mr. DULLES - So that one of these bags may have been unloaded at your house?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. McCLOY - You testified, I believe, you started to testify, that there was also a radio that had been presumably purchased in Russia. Did he take that with him?
Mrs. PAINE - He took that.
Mr. McCLOY - He took that with him. He didn't return that to her.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, I don't want to speculate, but I thought you had testified in response to my questions that the two or three pieces of luggage, that is, the suitcases, plus the two duffel bags, plus the zipper bag, plus the radio, had been checked into the bus station.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; that is right.
Mr. JENNER - All of those pieces of luggage were actually checked in, and when you left the bus station none of the pieces of luggage or the radio or the duffel bags had been placed back in your car.
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall it, but it seems to me unreasonable
Mr. JENNER - Now, please, I don't want you to rationalize. I want your best recollection.
Mrs. PAINE - I cannot recall. I mean the suitcases that came to my house.
Mr. JENNER - You don't recall having taken one of the pieces of luggage and placed that piece back in your station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, no, no, that is definite. All that went to the bus station.
Mr. JENNER - Remained there.
Mrs. PAINE - Remained there.
Mr. JENNER - I see.
Mr. DULLES - At what stage did they go to the bus station? Did you go from their apartment to your house and then to the bus station or did you go to the bus station first?
Mrs. PAINE - Directly to the bus station.
Mr. DULLES - And then went to your house?
Mrs. PAINE - Directly to the bus station from their apartment, back to their apartment and picked up the rest of the things.
Mr. DULLES - I see.
Mrs. PAINE - The baby things and her clothing and then went to my house.
Mr. DULLES - I see.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, apart from your rationalization, do you have the recollection that there was any luggage at all in the Oswald home when You got back?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I have no such recollection.
Mr. JENNER - So that in response to Mr. Dulles' questions when you talked about the possibility of some luggage, you were rationalizing?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - You are not drawing on your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. JENNER - I take it your best recollection, in fact, is that there was no luggage remaining at the Oswald home when you got back?
Mrs. PAINE - There was nothing packed when we got back.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recall undertaking to pack anything when you got back in order to remove what they had there remaining to your home?
Mrs. PAINE - You mean was there a suitcase into which I could pack anything?
Mr. JENNER - That is it.
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall.

We are left to assume Paine transported 'two' sea bags and other baggage to Texas.
Then LHO would have to transport a Sea Bag from Paine garage to room in Dallas. Paine says she belives the photo of the sea bag is the bag he took to Dallas on Oct 7th. Bledsoe was shown photo of A-1 and the (Bee 4 bag) #C-254 but did not identify either from photos.
Marina says LHO took Blue zipper bag to Mexico though she was not in NOL when he left but thought sea bag was in Paine garage while Lee was in mexico.

So why not keep rifle in sea bag?

Exhibit C-254 is a cloth bag, green in color, known
- a "see 4" big . It measures approximately 24" long, by 18"
high, by ll" wide. Exhibit C-254 hen markings in yellow on one
side of the bag. These markings are the data "9/26" and an
unreadable mark above the numeral
"26" Which may be an initial.
On the top portion of C-254 are two fragments of what
are to be some company stickers and a small decal

At 24" long sea bag is much too short to hide a rifle/Carcano in it. So then is this why it disappeared?


Besides the bag the Markings, Stickers, Tags and Decals attached to the sea bag were also photographed....GOOD LUCK FINDING THIS EVIDENCE!!!


Seems this Duffel/Duffle/Sea/ BEE/ Sea 4/ See 4/ Bee 4/ B-4/ C-254/ #288 Canvas sack/bag has many names and no extant photos, at least none readily available. ~Ed
 

To be clear I do not believe Lee Harvey Oswald ever had a rifle. The sixth floor rifle was never stored in the baby blanket. Evidence of blanket fibers on the Carcano are virtually non existent, less the contamination by DPD as seen in DPD photos.
Mr. STOMBAUGH. . . . All I would say here is that it is possible that these fibers could have come from this blanket, because this blanket is composed of brown and green woolen fibers, brown and green delustered viscose fibers, and brown and green cotton fibers.
. . . Here we have only found 1 brown viscose fiber, and 2 or 3 light green cotton fibers. We found no brown cotton fibers, no green viscose fibers, and no woolen fibers.So if I had found all of these then I would have been able to say these fibers probably had come from this blanket...BUT SINCE I FOUND SO FEW, THEN I WOULD SAY THE POSSIBILITY EXISTS, THESE FIBERS COULD HAVE COME FROM THIS BLANKET.  (4H80-1).


Horse Manure!!! So few fibers because the rifle was not wrapped in the baby blanket but was contaminated at/by the  DPD or by Stombaugh himself. If you read his testimony, he was careful not to say that the fibers on the rifle came from Oswald's shirt, or blanket. But implied the butt plate fibers were shirt fibers. Hmmm

This is just a bunch of after the fact framing of LHO. Paine is caught in several small fibs during her luggage lies. 40 inch duffel bags!!! Oh please! Show me the money shot!!! Show me a Sea Bag with LHO's name and MC serial numbers in white with Mexico bus markings in yellow and all that jazz next to a ruler. Proof is not stories. Stories are not proof.

A footnote in Dick Russell's "The Man Who Knew Too Much," says after the assassination CIA had discovered luggage at the Mexico City airport for Lee Oswald. How convenient!!!!! Any source to this CIA after the fact frame up?

SHOW ME THE PROOF!

Oh the rifle wasn't in the blanket so he must have taken it to kill the President. Bollocks!
It wasn't ever in the blanket, so YES it was not there when you, Mrs Paine, went and looked with Marina!!
Two liars don't make the truth! Fact is they washed the blanket!
For all we know the blanket had curtain rods in it.
For all we know the curtain rods found in Mrs Paine's garage came out of the blanket.
Case Closed.



http://books.google.com/books?id=T7lFAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA2127-IA38&lpg=PA2127-IA38&dq=lee+harvey+oswald+Bledsoe+luggage&source=bl&ots=gGTBeHIcCO&sig=qjm_7AbSBhaghDG7XpEXq1o-reM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=itnMUv-DBYf8oASbqoKgDw&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=lee%20harvey%20oswald%20Bledsoe%20luggage&f=false

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:9smiLf0j2ecJ:www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/pdf/WH23_CE_1875.pdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

http://books.google.com/books?id=T7lFAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA2128&lpg=PA2128&dq=%22Bee+4%22+luggage&source=bl&ots=gGTBeHJ7AJ&sig=kQCPz6q12Y8OWew_qlz_cgVrlo0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZNvMUuPPLZLZoAThi4DAAg&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22Bee%204%22%20luggage&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=n7hFAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA1846&lpg=PA1846&dq=lee+oswald+canvas+bag&source=bl&ots=z5qPToC7AW&sig=eHfpFgx7Btbk-sH7h3zOd4QPpiE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RvzMUsWtBovsoASp8ILwDA&ved=0CGUQ6AEwCw#v=onepage&q=lee%20oswald%20canvas%20bag&f=false

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:sfPQTlhBfNoJ:www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pdf/WH24_CE_2127.pdf+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=142737


Rogers was correct this looks similar to A-1 the blue/black zippered bag!!
This is no Sea Bag!

Marina blames Robert for having kept seabag.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=15214&imageOnly=true

or

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=15214

Very convoluted and a night wasted searching and searching for a seabag but this is what I found,...

I know this is almost blasphemous... but McAdams newsgroup does have some very good material posted over the years.

This thread has excellent info from two excellent researchers - Martha Moyers and "Jerrymac" (not to be confused with McNally...)

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/oswald$20duffle$20bag/alt.assassination.jfk/krttTSJQduA/j_0tPO44EFAJ

Aha! I knew you were an infiltrator all along ... oh, wait, it's your site, isn't it. Can you infiltrate yourself?  Mr Parker, double agent, our man in Orange.  


BTW, you know what the penalty for heresy is.

Anathema!

Yes, you can infiltrate yourself... but the bible frowns upon it...

Just to up the ante: Orange is famous for.... apples!

http://www.centralwesterndaily.com.au/story/1493051/gallery-the-big-crunch-for-the-orange-apple-festival/

Thank for the McAdams link!

Seems they went through all the "evidence" like I did and still came up with an empty sack of theories.
Such as Robert had them, they were at the YMCA, at the bus station lockers, or with his Mom... a little bird told me this and that...all speculative and not what the record should afford.
I do agree that any sea bag of that type and of the era are too small to accommodate a broken down rifle...or GI's would always be carrying rifles in sea bags, they don't.
The sea bag/s described as white-ish that would make them like such as the WW2/Korea drawstring type:



or


Or this type with clasp



Still just speculation as they were said to be GREEN with WHITE LETTERS and LHO's serial number. Was this the reason they were not entered as the serial number would not correspond to LHO's number.
I see that McAdams was unfamiliar with the whole issue and was schooled by tag team of Martha Moyers and Jerrymac. I enjoyed that.
As I've looked under all those rocks  I find there is little to support the official story and remote possibility the rifle and sea bags even existed at the Paines garage. Recall the move to Neely and the miniscule amount of items the Oswald's supposedly moved in a stroller...
Martha kept calling them LARGE, they are not large!
The 11/22 search of Beckley when everything was taken....yet then the "11/23 search" are telling!

For example,
Det. Moore was on the Beckley search. He testified that everything was
taken on the afternoon of 11/22 and could not explain the 11/23 search
warrant date. Saturday he assisted in the garage search at the Paines.
Moore also testified that when they returned to DPD late Friday afternoon
he made a list of items taken from Beckley.
Corroboration for Moore's story can be found in Det. Turner's testimony
and the best part here - TURNER TYPED THE INVENTORY LIST taken from
Beckley room on 11/22. See Turner Exhibit (21 H 678-9)


I want to know how Stovall found two sea bags if one was at Robert Oswald's and the other at
"Beckley"???

How did Mrs. Paine see two if one was at Robert Oswald's???

Somethings amiss!
(to be polite)

Ed, to be fair to Martha, she was quoting Ruth's description of them being "large'. 

But yes, there is something amiss. Bag identification and location was a big big part of the FBI investigations in Dallas, Irving, Oak Cliff, New Orleans, Atlanta and Mexico City.

They were almost frantic.

Thanks Greg,

Of course Mrs Paine would stretch the truth and call the sea bags "large" but repeating it is not doing anyone a favor.
The sea bags at best were 34" and not the 40"+ Paine description.
They are below door knob level from floor or less than standard table height...EMPTY.
If full, they are even shorter. So leave it to Ruth and company to get away with damaging testimony with no item/photo presented to her for reference or to be placed into evidence as an exhibit.
Now had Ruth described a large olive drab duffel bag of Army sorts with handles you can carry like a back pack, then I would not belabor the point. Yet she describes a white marine corps sea bag as I have shown above. The two are worlds apart and mutually exclusive!
No rifle would fit in that sea bag.

Perhaps they were frantic due to the CIA tale of the "luggage" found at the MC airport with Oswald's name on it.
If something/ luggage was found at the Mexico airport and of course led to a conspiracy, then that "luggage" would disappear or let Ruth find it in her already searched garage and turn it over weeks later.

As John Armstrong noted:

The Warren Commission, disregarding the statements of Eric Rogers, bus passengers, and the Hotel del Comercio employees, concluded that Oswald had taken two pieces of luggage with him to Mexico, "A small, blue, zipper bag and a large, olive-colored bag, both made of cloth."[32]

The bag I showed that the commission had in evidence with the 'markings' was of course photographed in black and white...go figure. Is it Blue, Brown, Green, leather, canvas, cloth??? Is it the Mexico trip bag?

We need to track down the Dick Russell footnote about the Oswald Luggage found at Mexico City Airport! Otherwise that is another Chinese whisper like a "large sea bag" and is unfounded.
Perhaps Robert Charles-Dunne has looked at Russell' claim?
Robert?

~Ed

Ed, I could be wrong, but I think that footnote was in the first edition of the book.

What strikes me about the bags you posted is the (remote?) possibility of mistaking them for a paper gag at a distance... maybe...?

Color and dimensions seem close is really all I'm saying...

Ed. Ledoux wrote:

We need to track down the Dick Russell footnote about the Oswald Luggage found at Mexico City Airport! Otherwise that is another Chinese whisper like a "large sea bag" and is unfounded.
Perhaps Robert Charles-Dunne has looked at Russell' claim?
Robert?

~Ed

Hi Ed:

I tried for some time to get an answer to that question, and eventually Dick Russell disclosed that the footnoted claim came from Win Scott's wife, who learned it from her husband before his peculiar death.  (It seems - to me at least - highly unlikely and purposeless for her to have concocted the tale.)

If true, "Oswald" luggage purportedly being found at the airport is incredibly significant, if for no other reason than the fact Oswald - per extant documentation - travelled either by bus or car.  (I won't parse that further here today, because that's a whole other story unto itself.) 

There can be no innocent explanation for "Oswald" luggage showing up at an airport he'd never used, several months after he'd allegedly been in the city.  Oddly, the luggage claim must have been deliberately buried in a hurry, since there's been nary a word about it that I've found, outside of Russell's footnote.   

When taken together with the fabricated reports of a light plane from the US carrying a single passenger to a waiting Cubana Airlines flight to Havana on 11/22, the planned purpose becomes self-evident and the CIA hoax is revealed.   Throw in Alvarado, and the entire mess is tainted as wholly bogus from start to finish. 

One must then contend with why CIA was fabricating such "evidence" against Oswald before and after the assassination.  It's not the earmark of a disinterested party, but evidence of clairvoyance the odds of which cannot be calculated by a mere human mind.

(When Alvarado's story was exposed as rubbish, CIA provided a second source to disseminate the same lie Alvarado had told.  Likewise, when Oswald was arrested and hence could not be the single passenger on the Mexico City airport tarmac, the traveller's identity was switched to that of one of several Cubans (take your pick; Tim Gratz did) whose journey was only marginally less suspect than had it been Oswald.  CIA was unwilling to give up on these fraudulent events, even after they'd lost their significance.  The luggage, however, was summarily deep sixed.)

Without wishing to compound unnecessarily the current seabag enigma, I would just add that when Oswald left the Atlanta airport on his way back to Texas from the USSR, he was three pieces of luggage lighter than when his plane arrived there.  Found in LHO's notebook was the name and Atlanta address of Alexis Davison's mother; Davison having been the US Air Force attache (and doctor) stationed at the US Embassy in Moscow.  Davison was later expelled as a suspected CIA spy for his interactions there with a Soviet named Penkovsky who provided classified information to the US, for which he was ultimately executed.  Davison's explanation to the HSCA was that he'd conducted a pro forma medical examination of Marina Oswald, and suggested that if they were ever in Atlanta, Oswald should contact Davison's mother.

Does it beggar belief that Oswald soon thereafter took a flight from New York to Texas with an Atlanta stopover?  Does it likewise confound the mind that three pieces of luggage evaporated between New York and Texas, as revealed by Robert Oswald in his book?  (They were not mislaid or accidently sent elsewhere by an incompetent airline, only to later be returned.  They simply vanished without explanation, and LHO seems to have made no known effort to have them located and returned to him.)

FWIW....

(ON EDIT: I tried various search terms at various sites to no avail.  However, if one searches for the term "baggage" @ NARA, there are CIA documents alluded to that pertain to Mexico City and still have redactions.  Chances are, if there's anything to find, it'll be among those.)

Thanks RCD!
I was hoping for more than the Janet Scott comment.
Win' manuscript that fell into Angelton's hands may of had some more info.
http://articles.latimes.com/1996-03-27/news/ls-51612_1_michael-scott/4

I will look at Nara docs for clues.

I see many FBI documents listing color photos of his luggage...where they are is a guess at this time.

Greg that is very close to size and color for a 'paper' sack! ;-)

Guest wrote:The date error is just my inability to count my own fingers, Greg.  Here is Gladys Johnson's May 1964 statement concerning the bag and Oswald staying at the rooming house that weekend (November 16 & 17):

Mrs Johnsons and Ruth's interviews have the Bee 4 description.






This helped me kill two birds with one stone 

I found d B- 4 bags were marked or designated as garment bags not duffle bags 




So the Bee4 B-4 are these garment bags and guess what there is a military Val-Pak /Val-A-Pak version.

Several branches of military and Valpak version

It's looking really bad for any rifle transport in a B-4 bag

Cheers!
Ed