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Not all the facts lead to Oswald
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Frankie Vegas
AllenLowe
greg_parker
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Not all the facts lead to Oswald
Thu 02 Jan 2014, 5:40 pm
First topic message reminder :
1. "Here, everything pointed toward Oswald's guilt. All the physical evidence, all the scientific evidence. Everything he said, everything he did...Only in a fantasy world can you have 53 pieces of evidence pointing toward guilt and still be innocent." (Vincent Bugliosi)
Bugliosi's first assertion is incorrect. Not all the physical and scientific evidence clearly incriminates Oswald. All the original medical evidence at Parkland hospital disputes the later determinations of the President's Warren Commission.i This implies a separate gunman to account for some original wounds, not Oswald. Some important pieces of physical and scientific evidence are contradictory. Bugliosi seems to have issue with any doubting the Commission's findings. The official record contains repeated authorities and evidence disputing the President's (Warren) Commission. These "conspiracy theorists" include members of the President's (Warren) Commission.ii iii iv Thus, Bugliosi is not considering all the evidence.
2. "Oswald's Mannlicher Carcano rifle was the murder weapon. That's pretty heavy by itself." (Vincent Bugliosi)
Owning a weapon does not conclusively prove the owner subsequently used it. Without a legal trial, this is mere contention from Bugliosi. Yet members of the Dallas Police instead contended the weapon was a Mauser rifle, not a Carcano. While this does not conclusively prove the weapon was a Mauser, it creates doubt and the shadows of incompetence or alteration. v The "murder" weapon, the Carcano, additionally has problematic distinctions. Among them is a rusty firing pin, metal shims necessary for proper sighting of the scope, and the supplier states it was defective.vi vii
3. "Oswald was the only employee at the Book Depository Building who fled the building after the Assassination." (Vincent Bugliosi)
Oswald was one of dozens of employees not initially accounted for. Just after the assassination Oswald did not flee, he bought a soda in the Depository lunchroom. Perhaps Bugliosi meant subsequent to that point. Oswald just needed a drink before he fled apparently. If Oswald was fleeing after he left the Depository, why did he never board a train, bus, or cab out of Dallas? Instead, he boarded a bus,cab, and remained in the city. Officially, he retrieves his pistol and murders Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit. Yet this is not a man fleeing from a desperate act as Bugliosi subsequently contends. The entire point of fleeing is to escape.
4. " That murder bore the signature of a man in desperate flight from some awful deed. Thirty minutes later at a Texas theater he resists arrest, pulls a gun. During his interrogation Oswald told one provable lie after another"(Vincent Bugliosi)
After he allegedly kills Officer Tippit, Oswald does not take the car. Oswald runs away. Despite Oswald's alleged motivation of "fleeing", he never makes a single reasonable attempt to escape Dallas. He "flees" around Dallas and then absconds to a movie theater. As Bugliosi states, Oswald resisted arrest and was armed.
However, Oswald does not fire into the crowd or take a hostage as a desperate man might. If Oswald murdered JD Tippit in cold blood, why did he not immediately shoot the arresting officers when they enter the theater? I agree with Bugliosi that Oswald lied repeatedly. This only proves he lied.
5. ...but no one is ever going to know for sure why Oswald killed Kennedy... He had been a failure everywhere. He was a failure in the Marines, [and] he was court-martialed. He was a failure with Marina, his wife. He had been a failure all of his life, and all of sudden now he had done something successfully..." (Vincent Bugliosi)
I disagree. With each modern declassification, the truth gains power. In time, the agendas of both critic and advocate are discredited or affirmed. To call Oswald a failure ignores the exceptional things he did. He was able to gain security clearance while professing Marxist beliefs. Only years after the Red scare this "Communist" receives military radar secrets. Oswald then defects from the United States. He states at the American Embassy that he intends to offer all military secrets to the Soviet Union. Embassy security does not seize him. Oswald is allowed to leave. After his long stay in Russia as a traitor, he receives a loan by the American State Department to return with his Russian wife.Oswald's activities are exceptionally suspicious and not the work of a mere failure. He somehow remains free despite his intent to betray the United States. Bugliosi additionally fails to account for the subsequent exceptional shooting in Dealey Plaza. It was exceptional because Oswald had not practiced for months. Without practice, how did he make the shots? viii ix
6. "All these theories and beliefs have turned out to be "moonshine." I am convinced beyond all doubt that Oswald killed Kennedy. I am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that there was no conspiracy. The Warren Commission and the FBI conducted a thorough investigation, and found no evidence that Ruby was ever a member of organized crime, or had any association with them....he (Jack Ruby) also liked to intimate that he had mob connections, but they found no evidence he was ever connected with organized crime." (Vincent Bugliosi)
The Warren Commission and the FBI did offer certain conclusions. Modern investigations with additional evidence concluded otherwise. The House Select Committee on Assassinations Report concluded a high probability of conspiracy existed and a possible fourth shot.x Additionally the Committee found the President's (Warren) Commission was deprived of some evidence.Despite Bugliosi's ringing endorsement of the FBI, officials called their investigation "deficient" regarding "organized crime, pro- and anti- Castro Cubans, and the possible associations of individuals from these areas with Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby."xii Other investigations also determined the Central Intelligence Agency investigation failed the Commission as well.
“This evidence indicates that the investigation of the assassination was deficient and that the facts which might have substantially affected the course of the investigation were not provided to the Warren Commission”. They stated “…the CIA inquiry was deficient on the specific question of the significance of Oswald’s contacts”.xiii To claim that the evidence against Oswald is overwhelming is quite inaccurate. Additionally, Jack Ruby did receive multiple calls from Mafia associates shortly before murdering Oswald. xiv In fact, the President's (Warren) Commission itself acted despite the law. It violated the jurisdictional authority of Texas officials. “Legally, the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent murder of Lee Harvey Oswald were within the jurisdiction of Texas State Authorities”xv Subsequently, Texas authorities eventually relented to federal jurisdiction. Yet due to Oswald's murder before trial, legally, he is presumed innocent. For all the condemnation and speculation, critics have not addressed these enduring official inconsistencies.
Sincerely,
C. A. A. Savastano
i Hearings of the President's Commission Volume VI, Dr. Paul Peters, Dr. Charles Carrico, Dr. Robert McClelland, Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. Ronald Jones, Dr. Marion Jenkins, Dr. William Clark, Dr. Don Curtis, Dr. Gene Akin, Dr, Kenneth Salyer, Dr. Charles Baxter, Nurse Diana Bowron, Nurse Pat Hutton.
ii President's Commission Executive Sessions transcript, December 16, 1963, p. 39
iii President's Commission Executive Session transcript, January 21, 1964, p. 20
iv President's Commission Executive Session transcript, January 27, 1964, p. 143
v City of Dallas Municipal Archives, Office of the Secretary, The JFK Collection, Affidavit of Deputy Seymour Weitzman, Box 2, Folder 1, Document 8, jfk.tx.us
vi Hearings of the President's Commission, Volume XXVI, Commission Exhibit 2974, p. 455
vii Hearings of the President's Commission, Volume XXV, Commission Exhibit 2559, pp. 797-98
vi Report of the President's Commission, Chapter 4, the Assassin, Oswald's rifle Practice Outside the Marines, p. 192
vi Report of the President's Commission, Chapter 4 the Assassin, Ownership and Possession of Assassination Weapon, p. 125
x Report of the House Select Committee, Section I, Part B, subsection 6, p.93
xi Report of the House Select Committee on Assassinations, Section 1, Part D, subsection 3, the FBI p.242
xii Ibid
xiii Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Activities Report, Book 5, Part 1, Performance of Intelligence Agencies Summary and Findings, p.6
xiv Hearings of the Select Committee on Assassinations, Volume IX, Section V, Possible Associations between Jack Ruby and Organized Crime, Part D, prepared by Howard Shapiro research attorney and Michael Ewing staff researcher pp. 188-96.
xv Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Activities Report, Book 5, Part IV, Intelligence Agencies, Summary and Findings, p.45
1. "Here, everything pointed toward Oswald's guilt. All the physical evidence, all the scientific evidence. Everything he said, everything he did...Only in a fantasy world can you have 53 pieces of evidence pointing toward guilt and still be innocent." (Vincent Bugliosi)
Bugliosi's first assertion is incorrect. Not all the physical and scientific evidence clearly incriminates Oswald. All the original medical evidence at Parkland hospital disputes the later determinations of the President's Warren Commission.i This implies a separate gunman to account for some original wounds, not Oswald. Some important pieces of physical and scientific evidence are contradictory. Bugliosi seems to have issue with any doubting the Commission's findings. The official record contains repeated authorities and evidence disputing the President's (Warren) Commission. These "conspiracy theorists" include members of the President's (Warren) Commission.ii iii iv Thus, Bugliosi is not considering all the evidence.
2. "Oswald's Mannlicher Carcano rifle was the murder weapon. That's pretty heavy by itself." (Vincent Bugliosi)
Owning a weapon does not conclusively prove the owner subsequently used it. Without a legal trial, this is mere contention from Bugliosi. Yet members of the Dallas Police instead contended the weapon was a Mauser rifle, not a Carcano. While this does not conclusively prove the weapon was a Mauser, it creates doubt and the shadows of incompetence or alteration. v The "murder" weapon, the Carcano, additionally has problematic distinctions. Among them is a rusty firing pin, metal shims necessary for proper sighting of the scope, and the supplier states it was defective.vi vii
3. "Oswald was the only employee at the Book Depository Building who fled the building after the Assassination." (Vincent Bugliosi)
Oswald was one of dozens of employees not initially accounted for. Just after the assassination Oswald did not flee, he bought a soda in the Depository lunchroom. Perhaps Bugliosi meant subsequent to that point. Oswald just needed a drink before he fled apparently. If Oswald was fleeing after he left the Depository, why did he never board a train, bus, or cab out of Dallas? Instead, he boarded a bus,cab, and remained in the city. Officially, he retrieves his pistol and murders Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit. Yet this is not a man fleeing from a desperate act as Bugliosi subsequently contends. The entire point of fleeing is to escape.
4. " That murder bore the signature of a man in desperate flight from some awful deed. Thirty minutes later at a Texas theater he resists arrest, pulls a gun. During his interrogation Oswald told one provable lie after another"(Vincent Bugliosi)
After he allegedly kills Officer Tippit, Oswald does not take the car. Oswald runs away. Despite Oswald's alleged motivation of "fleeing", he never makes a single reasonable attempt to escape Dallas. He "flees" around Dallas and then absconds to a movie theater. As Bugliosi states, Oswald resisted arrest and was armed.
However, Oswald does not fire into the crowd or take a hostage as a desperate man might. If Oswald murdered JD Tippit in cold blood, why did he not immediately shoot the arresting officers when they enter the theater? I agree with Bugliosi that Oswald lied repeatedly. This only proves he lied.
5. ...but no one is ever going to know for sure why Oswald killed Kennedy... He had been a failure everywhere. He was a failure in the Marines, [and] he was court-martialed. He was a failure with Marina, his wife. He had been a failure all of his life, and all of sudden now he had done something successfully..." (Vincent Bugliosi)
I disagree. With each modern declassification, the truth gains power. In time, the agendas of both critic and advocate are discredited or affirmed. To call Oswald a failure ignores the exceptional things he did. He was able to gain security clearance while professing Marxist beliefs. Only years after the Red scare this "Communist" receives military radar secrets. Oswald then defects from the United States. He states at the American Embassy that he intends to offer all military secrets to the Soviet Union. Embassy security does not seize him. Oswald is allowed to leave. After his long stay in Russia as a traitor, he receives a loan by the American State Department to return with his Russian wife.Oswald's activities are exceptionally suspicious and not the work of a mere failure. He somehow remains free despite his intent to betray the United States. Bugliosi additionally fails to account for the subsequent exceptional shooting in Dealey Plaza. It was exceptional because Oswald had not practiced for months. Without practice, how did he make the shots? viii ix
6. "All these theories and beliefs have turned out to be "moonshine." I am convinced beyond all doubt that Oswald killed Kennedy. I am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that there was no conspiracy. The Warren Commission and the FBI conducted a thorough investigation, and found no evidence that Ruby was ever a member of organized crime, or had any association with them....he (Jack Ruby) also liked to intimate that he had mob connections, but they found no evidence he was ever connected with organized crime." (Vincent Bugliosi)
The Warren Commission and the FBI did offer certain conclusions. Modern investigations with additional evidence concluded otherwise. The House Select Committee on Assassinations Report concluded a high probability of conspiracy existed and a possible fourth shot.x Additionally the Committee found the President's (Warren) Commission was deprived of some evidence.Despite Bugliosi's ringing endorsement of the FBI, officials called their investigation "deficient" regarding "organized crime, pro- and anti- Castro Cubans, and the possible associations of individuals from these areas with Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby."xii Other investigations also determined the Central Intelligence Agency investigation failed the Commission as well.
“This evidence indicates that the investigation of the assassination was deficient and that the facts which might have substantially affected the course of the investigation were not provided to the Warren Commission”. They stated “…the CIA inquiry was deficient on the specific question of the significance of Oswald’s contacts”.xiii To claim that the evidence against Oswald is overwhelming is quite inaccurate. Additionally, Jack Ruby did receive multiple calls from Mafia associates shortly before murdering Oswald. xiv In fact, the President's (Warren) Commission itself acted despite the law. It violated the jurisdictional authority of Texas officials. “Legally, the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent murder of Lee Harvey Oswald were within the jurisdiction of Texas State Authorities”xv Subsequently, Texas authorities eventually relented to federal jurisdiction. Yet due to Oswald's murder before trial, legally, he is presumed innocent. For all the condemnation and speculation, critics have not addressed these enduring official inconsistencies.
Sincerely,
C. A. A. Savastano
i Hearings of the President's Commission Volume VI, Dr. Paul Peters, Dr. Charles Carrico, Dr. Robert McClelland, Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. Ronald Jones, Dr. Marion Jenkins, Dr. William Clark, Dr. Don Curtis, Dr. Gene Akin, Dr, Kenneth Salyer, Dr. Charles Baxter, Nurse Diana Bowron, Nurse Pat Hutton.
ii President's Commission Executive Sessions transcript, December 16, 1963, p. 39
iii President's Commission Executive Session transcript, January 21, 1964, p. 20
iv President's Commission Executive Session transcript, January 27, 1964, p. 143
v City of Dallas Municipal Archives, Office of the Secretary, The JFK Collection, Affidavit of Deputy Seymour Weitzman, Box 2, Folder 1, Document 8, jfk.tx.us
vi Hearings of the President's Commission, Volume XXVI, Commission Exhibit 2974, p. 455
vii Hearings of the President's Commission, Volume XXV, Commission Exhibit 2559, pp. 797-98
vi Report of the President's Commission, Chapter 4, the Assassin, Oswald's rifle Practice Outside the Marines, p. 192
vi Report of the President's Commission, Chapter 4 the Assassin, Ownership and Possession of Assassination Weapon, p. 125
x Report of the House Select Committee, Section I, Part B, subsection 6, p.93
xi Report of the House Select Committee on Assassinations, Section 1, Part D, subsection 3, the FBI p.242
xii Ibid
xiii Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Activities Report, Book 5, Part 1, Performance of Intelligence Agencies Summary and Findings, p.6
xiv Hearings of the Select Committee on Assassinations, Volume IX, Section V, Possible Associations between Jack Ruby and Organized Crime, Part D, prepared by Howard Shapiro research attorney and Michael Ewing staff researcher pp. 188-96.
xv Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Activities Report, Book 5, Part IV, Intelligence Agencies, Summary and Findings, p.45
- GuestGuest
Re: Not all the facts lead to Oswald
Mon 06 Jan 2014, 1:57 pm
If you need Ruth Paine to place Oswald in Mexico then you have a piss poor story.
TerryWMartin- Posts : 1000
Join date : 2013-11-30
Age : 73
Location : Middleburg, VA, USA 
Re: Not all the facts lead to Oswald
Tue 07 Jan 2014, 11:17 am
I realize it was not Oswald in Mexico City but I wonder if anyone knows where he actually went during that time frame?
And was his address actually at Earlene's place on Beckley or was he actually still living at 621 Marsalis?
These are the things that drive me nuts.
And was his address actually at Earlene's place on Beckley or was he actually still living at 621 Marsalis?
These are the things that drive me nuts.
_________________
If God had intended Man to do anything except copulate, He would have given us brains.
- - - Ignatz Verbotham
greg_parkerAdmin- Posts : 8368
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 66
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia
Re: Not all the facts lead to Oswald
Tue 07 Jan 2014, 2:37 pm
terlin wrote:I realize it was not Oswald in Mexico City but I wonder if anyone knows where he actually went during that time frame?
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t6-the-houston-problem-pt-1
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t7-the-houston-problem-pt-2
And was his address actually at Earlene's place on Beckley or was he actually still living at 621 Marsalis?
These are the things that drive me nuts.
_________________
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-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
Me
"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." Don Jeffries
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https://gregrparker.com
- GuestGuest
Re: Not all the facts lead to Oswald
Tue 07 Jan 2014, 3:19 pm
Of course, if the game plan had changed from "Oswald the commie agent tied to Castro and the Soviets; let's go nuke the bastards" to "Oswald the commie lone nut did it all by himself", don't you think the CIA would change the trail of bread crumbs so that researchers could "discover" that Oswald was never in Mexico City?
For example, look at the photo of Oswald at the embassy. Could you find someone who looked less like Oswald without putting J. Edgar Hoover in drag? I smell a plant.
For example, look at the photo of Oswald at the embassy. Could you find someone who looked less like Oswald without putting J. Edgar Hoover in drag? I smell a plant.
- TerryWMartin
- Posts : 1000
Join date : 2013-11-30
Age : 73
Location : Middleburg, VA, USA
Re: Not all the facts lead to Oswald
Tue 07 Jan 2014, 8:42 pm
Greg,
Thanks for the links. Fascinating as always.
It sounds as if the FBI wanted to kill that line of inquiry as quickly and quietly as possible.
Thanks for the links. Fascinating as always.
It sounds as if the FBI wanted to kill that line of inquiry as quickly and quietly as possible.
_________________
If God had intended Man to do anything except copulate, He would have given us brains.
- - - Ignatz Verbotham
Albert Rossi- Posts : 417
Join date : 2013-08-29
Age : 69
Location : Naperville, IL USA
Re: Not all the facts lead to Oswald
Wed 08 Jan 2014, 12:49 am
Traveller11 wrote:Of course, if the game plan had changed from "Oswald the commie agent tied to Castro and the Soviets; let's go nuke the bastards" to "Oswald the commie lone nut did it all by himself", don't you think the CIA would change the trail of bread crumbs so that researchers could "discover" that Oswald was never in Mexico City?
For example, look at the photo of Oswald at the embassy. Could you find someone who looked less like Oswald without putting J. Edgar Hoover in drag? I smell a plant.
Bob, an interesting observation. Certainly as a post-assassination scenario, not hesitating to disseminate a false photo would make sense from this standpoint. But the cable traffic on/after October 9 already suggests the involvement of a photo take from the Soviet embassy which does not reflect LHO's physical characteristics: 6 feet tall, heavy-set, 35 years of age. That's the info that goes back to Langley, and out from Elsie Scaleti to the HQ of FBI, the Navy and State dept.
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