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Jack Edwin Dougherty

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Sat 31 Aug 2013, 8:40 am

I had considered Dougherty as the assassin at one point in time, Redfern. However, I firmly believe it was Larry Crafard.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Colin Crow on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 1:37 am

For some reason I can't get this to post here. I have posted at Duncan's site.

Deciphering Dougherty

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by beowulf on Tue 24 Sep 2013, 5:05 am

Good piece Colin, I liked this part...

Mr. BALL - Or, did you see Mr. Truly?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, when the FBI men---I imagine it was who it was---he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and Just started looking for him, and .by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gun and shells.
---
CC. This is a most interesting comment. What FBI man (or detective) was in the building when this happened? Did this occur on the 6th floor just after the shots? His actions are to go to the first floor as he claimed. Does he now run back to the 5th floor and take the elevator down. Maybe talk to Piper, but is looking for Truly. Truly, of course is on his way up the stairs with Baker at this point
...

As fans of American cop shows know, police show badges, federal agents show credentials (I believe the technical term is "commission book").  Like, for example, this.
http://www.yourprops.com/movieprops/original/yp4fc63bff8a7f30.46967395/O-Hara-U-S-Treasury-USSS-badge-and-credentials-1.jpg

Its unclear whether the (clearly fake) federal agent sent Dougherty downstairs to find Truly before the shooting or after. In either case, it was an act of kindness, really. The shooters could have just as easily killed Dougherty (or Piper too if he was also on the 6th floor) as let him go. The cops would have just put it on Oswald's tab.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by greg parker on Wed 25 Sep 2013, 7:35 pm

beowulf wrote:This raises a few questions: 1. what did Jack know and when did he know it?  Was he helping assassins all along (whether voluntarily or by prior threat), was he coerced  on the scene into playing along, or was he slow-witted enough on the scene (surely Piper and Truly would have told him the score after the fact) that he believed the "FBI agent" was legit?
From Eddie Piper's first WC appearance

Mr. Ball. You mentioned you saw Truly?
Mr. PiperI don't know whether it was a policeman or FBI or who it was, but another fellow was with him.
Mr. Ball. And where were you?
Mr. Piper. Standing right there where they make coffee.
Mr. Ball. What did they do?
Mr. Piper. He ran in and yelled, "Where is the elevator?" And I said, "I don't know, sir, Mr. Truly." They taken off and went on up the stairway and that's all I know about that.
Mr. Ball. Did you at any time go above the fourth floor on that date?
Mr. Piper. No, sir.
Mr. Ball. Did you at any time go that day up above the fourth floor?
Mr. Piper. No--no, sir.
Mr. Ball. You never did---either before or after the shots?

He was recalled. At his second appearance, he claimed it was indeed, a police officer, but when asked how he was dressed, Piper replied "I don't know". Asked if he wore a white helmet, he said "No; I don't think so." 

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Colin Crow on Wed 25 Sep 2013, 11:53 pm

Oswald made short phone calls at lunchtime according to Piper.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/34/3420-001.gif

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Ray Mitcham on Thu 26 Sep 2013, 1:26 am

Colin Crow wrote:Oswald made short phone calls at lunchtime according to Piper.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/34/3420-001.gif
His statement says "usually" made phone calls, Colin.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Thu 26 Sep 2013, 5:23 am

Bill Shelley testified that he saw Oswald near the phone on the first floor, at about 10 or 15 minutes before noon:

 
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot, when is the last time you saw Oswald?
 
Mr. SHELLEY. It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12.
 
Mr. BALL. Where?
 
Mr. SHELLEY. On the first floor over near the telephone.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by 9K116 on Mon 21 Oct 2013, 9:58 pm

I can't find any pictures of Jack Daugherty over the internet. Had no problems with Bonney Ray Williams, James Jarman, Buell Wesley Frazier, Roy Truly, Eddie Piper etc., but no picture of this guy... 

Was he (Daugherty) black or white? If we assume that Eddie Piper was `elderly Negro`, seen in the 6th floor of TSBD by Arnold Rowland, could Daugherty been the other (white) one?

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 5:59 am

9K116 wrote:I can't find any pictures of Jack Daugherty over the internet. Had no problems with Bonney Ray Williams, James Jarman, Buell Wesley Frazier, Roy Truly, Eddie Piper etc., but no picture of this guy... 

Was he (Daugherty) black or white? If we assume that Eddie Piper was `elderly Negro`, seen in the 6th floor of TSBD by Arnold Rowland, could Daugherty been the other (white) one?
No photographs of JD exist other than a couple of photos that show him in a group school military regiment (early 1940's) and we don't know which one is him. 

Jack was Caucasian.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Stan Dane on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 9:06 am

Lee Farley wrote:
9K116 wrote:I can't find any pictures of Jack Daugherty over the internet. Had no problems with Bonney Ray Williams, James Jarman, Buell Wesley Frazier, Roy Truly, Eddie Piper etc., but no picture of this guy... 

Was he (Daugherty) black or white? If we assume that Eddie Piper was `elderly Negro`, seen in the 6th floor of TSBD by Arnold Rowland, could Daugherty been the other (white) one?
No photographs of JD exist other than a couple of photos that show him in a group school military regiment (early 1940's) and we don't know which one is him. 

Jack was Caucasian.
Mr. BALL - Will you state your name and address for the record?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Jack Edwin Dougherty.
Mr. BALL - And your address?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - 1827 South Marsalis.
Mr. BALL - How old are you?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Forty.
Mr. BALL - Where were you born?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Here in Dallas.

Mr. BALL - Where did you go to school?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Sunset High School.
Mr. BALL - You went through Sunset High School?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What year did you get out of high school? About?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, 1937.
Mr. BALL - 1937?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

 
Here's a picture of a Jack Daugherty as a senior in the 1937 Sunset High School yearbook (note the spelling of the last name):



 
If this is the Jack of interest, it could be that his last name was routinely misspelled (I know a guy surnamed Johnsen who told me people have misspelled his name all of his life, thinking it's Johnson). Also, if this is the Jack and he was 18 here, the normal age for a senior, he would have been about 44 or 45 years old when he gave his testimony on April 8, 1964.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 1:52 pm

Stan,

An "A" to you for effort. Dougherty told the WC he "left" high school in 1937, but he did not
say he graduated/ He also stated was 40 years of age on that date in 1964. He would have
been 14 years old in a 1937 yearbook if he was presented as a member of the senior class.

Page 4 of the thread, started by Greg, probably includes all the highlights of Dougherty's background. He and his parents share a gravestone and it displays his birth year as 1923.:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18068&page=4 This inforrmation is also available at findagrave.com .

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Stan Dane on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 3:09 pm

Tom Scully wrote:Stan,

An "A" to you for effort. Dougherty told the WC he "left" high school in 1937, but he did not
say he graduated/ He also stated was 40 years of age on that date in 1964. He would have
been 14 years old in a 1937 yearbook if he was presented as a member of the senior class.

Page 4 of the thread, started by Greg, probably includes all the highlights of Dougherty's background. He and his parents share a gravestone and it displays his birth year as 1923.:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18068&page=4 This inforrmation is also available at findagrave.com .
Thanks for the calibration Tom.
 
Checking the links you provided, I see that Jack's father was Redfern C. Dougherty. That name rang a bell, so I went back to the 1937 Yearbook and I found a Redfern C. Dougherty Jr. listed on the very next page. Wouldn't be surprised if this was Jack's older brother.



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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 3:45 pm

Brother Redfern four years later, 1941 (He was born in 1921, he is on the right, top image.)
Austin > Longhorn of the Cultural and Mechanical College > 1941 > 115


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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by greg parker on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 4:54 pm

Jack seems to have changed the spelling himself:
http://www.ancestry.com/1940-census/usa/Texas/Redfern-Daugherty_5k2323

This statement is supposedly in his writing. It clearly says "Dougherty"
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/01/0130-001.gif

If this is the Jack Edwin Daugherty, then he does not appear to have any cognitive problems. If anything, the data suggests he was well advanced for his age... in his senior year about 3 or 4 years ahead of schedule, interested in the classical languages and a musician and athlete to boot.

Maybe the Army turned him into Lenny Small. Whatever, but if this is the right guy, it suggests something went horribly wrong with him to wind up a 40+ year old bachelor living with his parents, working in the deadest of dead-end jobs and taking on the role of obedient servant to Roy Truly.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 5:17 pm


http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=67466268

(Wrong ones are found almost effortlessly, compared to the one you are searching for.)

http://www.qcwa.org/w5nsq-sk.htm
W5NSQ - August 9, 2008
W5NSQ - Jackson T. 'Jack' Daugherty Jackson T. 'Jack' Daugherty
New Braunfels, TX
QCWA # 7274

Major Jackson Temple "Jack" Daugherty (US Army Retired) passed away on August 9, 2008 in New Braunfels, Texas. He was born on September 25, 1919 in Amarillo, Texas to Jackson Hamilton Daugherty and Lottie Belle Sargent Daugherty. Jack grew up in Dallas, Texas, graduating from Sunset High School in 1937. He was enrolled in Texas A&M College in 1938 and later enrolled in the University of Texas, studying Business Administration.

He left school to enlist in the U.S. Army on February 14, 1941. After WWII, Jack was assigned to the Armed Forces Special Weapons Project (AFSWP) at Sandia Base, New Mexico. Jack retired from the U.S. Army as a Major in 1961.

He was hired by RCA to go back to Korea as the Chief Radio and Television Engineer for the American Forces Korean Network (AFKN) for 4 years. The U.S. Army then hired him to go to Okinawa as an Electronic Engineer for the 'Strategic Army Communications' (STRATCOM) for work in Vietnam, Thailand, and the Phillippine Islands. Jack later became a Contracting Officer and in 1969 was assigned to Singapore as Chief of the Army Contracting office there.

Jack is a Life Member of several Masonic Lodges AF&AM, The Scottish Rite (32nd Degree), the National Rifle Association, Disabled American Veterans, Veterans of Foreign Wars, The American Legion, The Retired Officer Assn, The Quarter Century Wireless Assn, the American Radio Relay League, The American Association of Retired People and the 'Good Sam' RV Club.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by ianlloyd on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 6:24 pm

Hmmm...doesn't seem to tie up, does it?...

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, of course, a year or so, you might say--just work in grocery stores until I was 19 and volunteered for the Armed Services in October--October 24, 1942.
Mr. BALL - How long were you in the service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - 2 years, 1 month, 17 days, to be exact.
Mr. BALL - And you were discharged from the Service, then, after the War, was it?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What did you do during the service---during your period in the service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, you might say just about a little bit of everything, from guard duty to---
Mr. BALL - Did you have any active service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, no--I volunteered for active service, but they said you couldn't very well volunteer--you have to be drafted, so they said, they told me at the time.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever leave the United States during the War?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there---Seymour, Ind.
Mr. BALL - Then where did you go from there in the service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I stayed there until I got discharged.
Mr. BALL - You didn't ever go outside the country to Europe?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, no.
Mr. BALL - Or to the South Seas?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - You stayed in this country all the time?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Now, did you ever have any difficulty with your speech?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - You never had any?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever have any difficulty in the Army with any medical treatment or anything of that sort?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - None at all?

BUT, Ball seemed to be asking questions that, it appears to me at least that he already has the answers for but doesn't get the same answers from Dougherty...if you notice, he asks many of the questions twice (or more) as if saying to himself "Hang on, that's not what I've got here, let's ask that again..."

Strange...

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by 9K116 on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 6:38 pm

ianlloyd wrote:Hmmm...doesn't seem to tie up, does it?...

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, of course, a year or so, you might say--just work in grocery stores until I was 19 and volunteered for the Armed Services in October--October 24, 1942.
Mr. BALL - How long were you in the service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - 2 years, 1 month, 17 days, to be exact.
Mr. BALL - And you were discharged from the Service, then, after the War, was it?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
If he voluntered in Army in October 24, 1942, then 2 years, 1 month and 17 days from that will make year 1944, around December ~10th. The War was not ended at that moment and Mr. Dougherty is, as minimum, wrong in his answer somewhere.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by ianlloyd on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 6:53 pm

Amazing how well he remembers exact dates from 20 or so years before but then seemingly gets totally confused about something that happened a few months previously!?!?

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by 9K116 on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 9:12 pm

Am I the only one here who thinks that Major Jackson Temple "Jack" Daugherty (US Army Retired) could be visually the same person that on the snapshot of `classmates` site as `Jack Daugherty` from `sernior class 1937` and that face of said person has similar traits with Redfern C. Daugherty from both pictures, provided by Stan Dane and Tom Scully (similar enough they could be brothers)?

I believe we can't prove it's the same person, but it's not the case when this is definitely not the person either...

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 9:30 pm

Redfern C Dougherty, at age 20, on left:



Last edited by Tom Scully on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 9:44 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by greg parker on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 9:36 pm

Tom Scully wrote:
Yep. same person and not "our" Jack.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by 9K116 on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 9:50 pm



Could be brothers?

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by Guest on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 9:54 pm

9K116 wrote:Am I the only one here who thinks that Major Jackson Temple "Jack" Daugherty (US Army Retired) could be visually the same person that on the snapshot of `classmates` site as `Jack Daugherty` from `sernior class 1937` and that face of said person has similar traits with Redfern C. Daugherty from both pictures, provided by Stan Dane and Tom Scully (similar enough they could be brothers)?

I believe we can't prove it's the same person, but it's not the case when this is definitely not the person either...
Something definitely does not add up here but I'm in agreement that the 1937 Sunset High School Jack Daugherty is most certainly the same person as Major Jackson Temple Daugherty and that if the 1937 Jack Daugherty and Redfern Dougherty aren't related in some way then I'd be very surprised.  The Redfern Dougherty photo where he is looking to our left rather than the photo where he is facing the camera directly gives the best likeness between the pair.

Interesting life that Major (Ret) Jackson Daugherty had.

The Jack E. Dougherty mystery continues...

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by 9K116 on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 10:15 pm

if the 1937 Jack Daugherty and Redfern Dougherty aren't related in some way then I'd be very surprised.
They still can be cousins or similar relatives, for example. Then there is relation and, on other hand, dead end of this direction.

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Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Post by greg parker on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 10:24 pm

Tom's find is still important.

Brother Redfern had 3 years in ROTC's Crack Company and attended ROTC Camp Dallas 2 years running. 

Apart from being a Dallas ROTC program, I have no idea what "Crack Company" was, but I don't think it was a secret society of coke snorters. Camp Dallas was a month long ROTC camp. 

During the Cold War, the ROTC trained both future Military Intelligence Officers and Army Security Agency officers. A notable example is Ed Lansdale.  

Jack does not appear to have been in the ROTC - but did spend his army stint at an Indiana base where all the state-of-the-art German aircraft were brought for reverse engineering.  

In 1972, Redfern Dougherty, Jr was made Manager of General Accounting for the Transcontinental Gas Pipe Line Corp based in Houston.  http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/3443065

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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