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An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

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An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Guest on Tue 20 May 2014, 2:14 am

I'm posting this as a separate topic so we can work through a few things away from the distractions and emotional aspects of the other thread that is currently ongoing.

Richard Gilbride asked me recently if I had truly considered the lunchroom encounter as fact or whether I was dismissing every aspect of it out of hand.

The answer is I have, on many occasions, worked through the official lunchroom encounter narrative and could never get it to match the evidence.  The testimony of both Baker and Truly just didn't support the event occurring the way they both said it occurred barring - or including - their many contradictions.

I think many of us here have over the last few months posted numerous pieces of evidence on the other thread that proves there are fundamental problems inherent in the official narrative concerning this encounter.

So, to play fair and not be accused of bias or being welded to the theory of a "non-event" I have today been playing around with some ideas in light of some very small snippets of testimony that were quite unusual to me.  At the time of reading them I didn't post them but I believe they now could possibly make sense.

I'm posting this to have it criticised, ripped to pieces, rebuilt, insertions and deletions added and taken away -- given the wealth of knowledge that exists on this forum and following the old adage that "the devil is in the details", between us we have all of the available details locked between our ears to try and put this riddle together.

Failing that I will well and "Truly" give up on this Godforsaken part of the story.

Lunchroom Encounter Version II

The only way a lunchroom encounter makes any sense to me after reading dozens of documents, portions of books and previously posted research is if Baker and Truly went up the southeastern stairs, through the office area, along the corridor, past the lunchroom and out the vestibule door.

If this thing has legs and is possible then it supports most of our beliefs that Truly was most definitely choreographing the entire scenario.  

What if…

i) Truly was stood waiting on the TSBD steps and his role was to divert an immediate Dallas Police Department response?

ii) Baker dismounts his motorcycle and runs up toward the building. At the top of the steps or immediately inside the lobby, gun drawn, Baker asks both Oswald and Truly where the stairs are.  Truly steps up the plate and takes Baker inside the lobby.  Oswald says nothing.

iii) Truly tells Baker they can take the elevator but rather than take him to the rear freight elevators that go all the way up to the seventh floor he instead turns the corner of the lobby and takes him to the one in the lobby that will only go to the fourth floor.  There is no power to this elevator and after waiting for a short period of time Truly tells Baker they can take the stairs.  Again, rather than taking Baker to the rear stairs that go all the way to the top of the building he instead takes him up the southeastern staircase right next to them that only goes to the second floor.

iv) While Truly & Baker are waiting for the elevator, Lee Oswald has gone up the stairs to the second floor.

v) Reaching the second floor Baker and Truly run through the office area and down the corridor that leads to the vestibule door.  Baker ahead of Truly as per Truly's quote to Leo Sauvage.

vi) As they reach the vestibule door Baker looks into the lunchroom window and sees Oswald in there.

vii) Baker is concerned that he has now seen this guy twice.  He opens the door and tells him to come over.

viii)  Baker asks Truly if Oswald works there.  Truly says yes.

ix)  They head through the vestibule door leaving Oswald behind and on the second floor landing Truly tries to call the western service elevator but it does not arrive.
 
x) Truly then leads Baker to the rear second floor staircase and they ascend to the fourth floor.

xi) Baker sees the man who will later be described in his affidavit.  Truly "vouches" for this guy too.  Oswald doesn't go into the affidavit because Baker saw him at the front doors.

xii) They both reach the fifth floor.  Get into an elevator.  Conveniently bypass the sixth floor.  Arrive on the seventh floor and go up to the roof.

What does this scenario solve?  

It solves all timing issues concerning Adams and Styles descending unseen by Truly and Baker because Truly and Baker were approaching the second floor staircase from a different direction.

It solves why we have absolutely no witnesses to Truly and Baker running through the first floor area and Truly hollering up the elevator shafts.  Troy West was brought in as a Warren Commission witness to confirm that he saw this event take place.  Unfortunately for David Belin he didn't.  What West went on record stating was that he saw a "crowd" of officers and FBI men coming in.  Belin even tried to lead him into saying that he saw Truly.  He said he didn't remember.  Without him there is no one.  If West remembered a crowd of officers and what he describes as "FBI" men rushing through his work area then I have no doubts he would have remembered "the boss" running in with a helmeted police officer shouting up the elevator shaft.  I'm assuming it would be quite a memorable event to a guy who spent every single day wrapping parcels.

It solves the issue of Baker not being able to see into the lunchroom from his alleged position running from the first floor staircase to the second floor staircase. In the alternative scenario he actually walked past the lunchroom door.

It solves the issue of the contradiction in Truly's statements concerning him being in front of and behind Baker -- the official narrative had to change this part of the story because Baker being ahead of Truly in the official version of events would significantly reduce the amount of time of the very brief encounter between Oswald and Baker. Hence all of the nonsense about Truly running ahead and being left by Baker to continue ascending the stairs.  The alternative scenario actually has Truly right there with the officer when he first sees Oswald in the lunchroom and is supported by many of Truly's early statements.

It might solve the question as to why the southeastern elevator had its power shut down.

Primary evidence going against alternative scenario

Baker's first day affidavit says:

"As I entered the door I saw several people standing around.  I asked these people where the stairs were.  A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were.  I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator."

This is somewhat problematic for one reason.  It insinuates that they immediately ran to the rear of the building on their way to the stairs. However, it doesn't preclude Baker following the man up the southeastern stairs before heading to the rear of the building.  I will defer to Troy Eugene West once again not seeing either of them run through the first floor office.

Other thoughts

If Truly was a puppet master in taking Officer Marrion Baker on wild goose chase inside the building then it makes sense to me that he would take him on the longest route possible up that building.

Is this what happened?

Was Baker hoodwinked by the southeastern elevator that had no power?  Was he hoodwinked into going up the southeastern stairs that only led to the second floor?

Is this why we have serious reservations that Truly could have looked up the elevator shafts from the first floor yet still knew the elevators were on the fifth floor?  Because they were purposely out of action along with the southeaster elevator?  Is that why the shouting up the shaft nonsense was a little late arriving even though the closest witness to it heard sod all, and didn't see the guy who was supposed to be shouting?

Was there also another time wasting exercise involved?

I was reading through the testimony of Mrs. Robert Reid last week refamiliarising myself with her recollections.  A portion of her testimony jumped out at me and I found it decidedly odd:

Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald walk past you? 
Mrs. REID. Yes; he did. 
Mr. BELIN. Kept on walking in the same direction? 
Mrs. REID. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BELIN. How far did you see him go? 
Mrs. REID. I didn't turn around to look. He went on straight, he did not go on past the back door because I was facing that way. What he did after that--- 
Mr. BELIN. But you know he did not go out the same back door he came in? 
Mrs. REID. No; he did not. 
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he went into the conference room? 
Mrs. REID. Well, I wouldn't think he did because this door off here was locked and I had unlocked it for the policeman myself. 
Mr. BELIN. All right, let's put an arrow here to the door that you say was locked, and we will put-do you want to put in the word "locked" in there, if you would, please? 
Mrs. REID. All right. 
Mr. DULLES. On which side was it locked or did you take the key away, was it locked so that you---- 
Mrs. REID. I would go in from this way. I wasn't going in from our office into the conference room. 
Mr. DULLES. And you locked that door? 
Mrs. REID. We did. They had asked me, I went in there with the policeman into the conference room. 
Mr. DULLES. Did you take the key? 
Mrs. REID. Yes, sir; I did, I got it for Mr. Williams. 
Mr. DULLES. No; I mean after you locked the door do you leave the key in the lock? 
Mrs. REID. No. 
Mr. BELIN. What I want to know is this, Mrs. Reid. When you came back up into the building after the shooting and you walked into the conference room, at that time was the door which you have marked "locked," was it locked at that time when you came in? 
Mrs. REID. Yes, sir; it was to---it was locked when I got to it, I will say that. 
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Had you been the one who had locked it before or don't you know? 
Mrs. REID. Oh, no, I couldn't say that because too many people used the conference room. 
I would have no way of knowing who locked it or if it is left unlocked. The porter locks it in the evening. 
Mr. BELIN. All right. 
If one is locking that door with a key do you lock the door from the inside of the conference room? 
Mrs. REID. Either way.

Mr. BELIN. Or the outside, either was? 
Mrs. REID. Either way. 
Mr. BELIN. Who has custody of the key? 
Mrs. REID. I got that from Mr. Williams' desk, because that is where I got it from, and then the porter has one. I could not say. They all have the keys. 
Mr. BELIN. When did you get it to unlock the door? 
Mrs. REID. Well, by the time the policeman got there and started searching our floor. I can't recall whether I had taken him into the lounge first because they had me to go in there with him, the ladies' lounge, or whether they went in there because there is a little stand in here that Mr. Cason uses when we have a conference, and he jerked it back because it would have been humanly possible for a person to have gotten in there, but it was up against the wall and there was no one there. 
Mr. BELIN. Would this have been more or less than 5 minutes after you got back in the building that you opened the lounge? 
Mrs. REID. That is where you all get me in this time because I was not watching the clock that day. 
Mr. BELIN. That is all right. 


I have bolded the segments that interest me.

Here is a diagram of the second floor as published in the Warren Commission exhibits showing what they claimed was Oswald's route:



The conference room is located next to Mr. Jack Cason's office who was the President and Treasurer of the TSBD and it had two doors - a south door and northwest door.

Reid is on record claiming she was asked to open and lock the north western door of the conference room.  

Here is her commission exhibit where she marks the word 'lock' on the conference room door she was was asked to lock:



Now, forgive me if I have this arse backwards but there is access to the eastern freight elevator from the second floor through this conference room as well as through the lunchroom.  Just two ways in and if you lock both the conference room door and the lunchroom door you can completely block access to and from the easter elevator.  Access to the western elevator was from the stairway landing.

I am deeply suspicious of this limited access to the eastern elevator and lumping into the mix Mrs. Reid spilling the beans about being asked to open and lock the conference room door has certainly perked my interest in who asked her to do this.  My gut instincts tell me it was Truly as he and Baker ran through the office area.  The timings that centre on Reid in trying to get her aligned to meet Oswald after the official lunchroom encounter do not work for me.  Her own amnesia on when she was specifically asked to open and lock the conference room door - given that she was specifically asked by David Belin during her WC appearance if the opening and closing of the door took place within five minutes of her getting back to the office makes me want to focus much more time on her.

Summary

I have done my best to make sense of a lunchroom encounter.  Given the evidence this is the best I can do.  The official version of how it happened just does not work.

If I was asked by a high profile relative to be an inside man after an assassination I would certainly be doing my best to lead law enforcement officials on a wild goose chase similar to the alternative scenario outlined above and if what I have posited is remotely true I can certainly understand Marrion Baker being completely disorientated regarding the floors he was actually on during those initial 5 minutes.

The conference room is incredibly intriguing to me and the less said about the dumb waiter, the better.

Okay - get out your hedge strimmers, axes and Rottweilers.  Start tearing into it...


Last edited by Hello Goodbye on Tue 20 May 2014, 4:24 am; edited 11 times in total (Reason for editing : Some errors changed & spelling mistakes)

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Stan Dane on Tue 20 May 2014, 3:55 am

If I understand correctly, here's a marked up diagram based on what Reid said.
 



To get this straight in my mind, a couple of questions:

1) When Reid was asked if Oswald went into (exited into) the conference room, was she was referring to the south door, the one she could see from her desk? Or was she assuming that, since she knew the south door was locked, Belin was referring to the northwest door, which she said was locked?

2) When she let a policeman in the conference room, why didn't she let him in through the south door? Why go way around to the northwest door (if I'm getting this right)? Why was she over there?

Some initial thoughts. 

I like what you're doing here Lee.

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Guest on Tue 20 May 2014, 4:30 am

Stan,

Thanks for the words of encouragement and your initial thoughts.  Short on time right now so I'll reply fully later to your questions.

I doubt we'll find anything -- although I'm not completely pessimistic -- but if we can come across anything that even remotely hints that the second door inside the lunchroom was locked I really think we could be onto something.

Later

Lee

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Stan Dane on Tue 20 May 2014, 6:19 am

Hello Goodbye wrote:-- but if we can come across anything that even remotely hints that the second door inside the lunchroom was locked I really think we could be onto something.
Whoa mamma! The implications of what you said here just hit me. You be right, Lee. We would definitely be onto something!

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Guest on Tue 20 May 2014, 6:50 am

Here is the only photograph of the western door in the lunchroom that I've ever seen:



P.S.  Does anybody know how the hell I would insert this moving gif into a post?

http://i515.photobucket.com/albums/t352/dannman2/truly_zps52d1b608.gif

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by beowulf on Tue 20 May 2014, 6:56 am

I like how your mind works Lee. Surprised)

We know (or at least Mrs. Reid says) who she got the key for:

Mrs. REID. We did. They had asked me, I went in there with the policeman into the conference room. 
Mr. DULLES. Did you take the key? 
Mrs. REID. Yes, sir; I did, I got it for Mr. Williams.


Mr. Williams is TSBD bookkeeping supervisor Otis Williams who told the FBI that a few minutes after the shooting he helped a "detective" (presumably a local plainclothes cop though a conspirator with fake badge is possible) search the second floor. It makes sense then for Mr. Williams to ask Mrs. Reid to unlock doors.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=328825

The part of Lee's scenario I have trouble with is Baker seeing Oswald on both ground floor and second floor.  More likely Baker saw someone else in lunchroom, someone who had to be removed from scene in later testimony.  Piper, Doughtery and Mrs. Reid are all people who could have been in lunchroom but had to give up their place (in the history books at least) to Oswald.  One other point, I guess we are left to disbelieve either believe Troy West or Mrs. Hine.  West didn't report seeing B&T hitting the backstairs and Mrs. Hine didn't report seeing B&T hit the front stairs.


Last edited by beowulf on Tue 20 May 2014, 6:58 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by greg parker on Tue 20 May 2014, 6:58 am


_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Colin Crow on Tue 20 May 2014, 7:03 am

Lee, you sent me a PM but I'm not sure my reply got through, the short answer was yes.

A screenshot from Ruby and Oswald, shows the door that leads to the east elevator.


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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Terry W. Martin on Tue 20 May 2014, 7:09 am

Okay, let's see if I can get this straight. It should be very simple because, as we all know, Mathematics is your friend.

T&B
Baker reaches building at :15
Truly offers assistance at :25
Waiting for elevator at front of building :45-:65
They opt for stairs at :70
They reach second floor :80
Race toward other elevators :80-90
Baker spots Oswald at :90.
Truly, Baker & Oswald are in the lunchroom/vestibule, with the vestibule door closed, having tea and cookies :90-125.

A&S
Adams leaves the window at :08.
She tells Styles she's going to go outside, and they navigate around a desk and get to the passenger elevator at :18.
They realize the elevator isn't operating and opt for the rear stairwell at :30
They get through the door into the 4th-floor storage area at :36
They reach the head of the stairs down to the 3rd floor at :54
They reach the 3rd-floor landing at :64
They reach the head of the stairs down to the 2nd floor at :68
They reach the 2nd-floor landing at :78
They pass by the 2nd-floor lunchroom at :78-82
And are gone before Truly and Baker even reach the lunchroom.

And like the two balls passing through a single tube - one going down and one going up - they actually are traveling in separate tubes.

BUT, none of this timing BS really matters because a door was locked?

Would that imply Oswald had come up the back stairs to the second floor before A&S came down? Meaning B&T weren't there to run into the girls either?

Or am I missing something?

(probably the latter)
 scratch

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Guest on Tue 20 May 2014, 7:17 am

greg parker wrote:

Cheers, Greg. It's been a long day.

The content of the above gif was something of a bone of contention between Sean Murphy and I when we discussed this at the beginning of last year.

Sean believes the guy in the black suit and hat in the middle of the frame is Roy Sansom Truly who we see Marrion Baker running past.  The main thrust of Sean's argument was because he believes Baker touches or almost touches Truly as he sprints by -- which Truly says happened.  I never could fully buy into it as being him.

First off I don't think a stationary 56 year old could have caught the 33 year old Baker in time to immediately answer the question of "Where are the stairs?" as he got to those doors. This guy is still stood stationary when Baker is on at the steps.  To catch Baker in time IMO this bloke would have had to have played the bump and run better than Jerry Rice.

My contender is the guy in the black suit who is almost at the bottom step of the TSBD steps -- if Roy Truly exists in these frames at all that is.

I've also been very interested in the almost 180 turn of the big Hulky looking guy who notices Baker running and swings around and almost looks like he's about to follow him.

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by beowulf on Tue 20 May 2014, 7:28 am

Sean's candidate is looking towards grassy knoll before he turns around (apparently to follow Baker inside).  Maybe its Ochus Campbell.

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Guest on Tue 20 May 2014, 7:32 am

terlin wrote:Okay, let's see if I can get this straight. It should be very simple because, as we all know, Mathematics is your friend.

T&B
Baker reaches building at :15
Truly offers assistance at :25
Waiting for elevator at front of building :45-:65
They opt for stairs at :70
They reach second floor :80
Race toward other elevators :80-90
Baker spots Oswald at :90.
Truly, Baker & Oswald are in the lunchroom/vestibule, with the vestibule door closed, having tea and cookies :90-125.

A&S
Adams leaves the window at :08.
She tells Styles she's going to go outside, and they navigate around a desk and get to the passenger elevator at :18.
They realize the elevator isn't operating and opt for the rear stairwell at :30
They get through the door into the 4th-floor storage area at :36
They reach the head of the stairs down to the 3rd floor at :54
They reach the 3rd-floor landing at :64
They reach the head of the stairs down to the 2nd floor at :68
They reach the 2nd-floor landing at :78
They pass by the 2nd-floor lunchroom at :78-82
And are gone before Truly and Baker even reach the lunchroom.

And like the two balls passing through a single tube - one going down and one going up - they actually are traveling in separate tubes.

BUT, none of this timing BS really matters because a door was locked?

Would that imply Oswald had come up the back stairs to the second floor before A&S came down? Meaning B&T weren't there to run into the girls either?

Or am I missing something?

(probably the latter)
 :scratch:

Mathematics most certainly is not my friend, Terry.  It is on my enemies list.  

However, I have a lot of time for clear questions.  Just as you need clearer exposition.  Let me try generating some answers to your unclear questions from my unclear narrative.

The locked door has got nothing to do with Oswald.  At least not in what I have outlined -- unclearly obviously.

Lee

 :face:

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by greg parker on Tue 20 May 2014, 7:40 am

I've been questioning since at least 2003 whether or not they both ran in (The sequence of events as I see it: Baker and Truly (who may or may not have entered together...)

Linda may have something to assist on this.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Terry W. Martin on Tue 20 May 2014, 10:59 am

Hello Goodbye wrote:Mathematics most certainly is not my friend, Terry.  It is on my enemies list.  

However, I have a lot of time for clear questions.  Just as you need clearer exposition.  Let me try generating some answers to your unclear questions from my unclear narrative.

The locked door has got nothing to do with Oswald.  At least not in what I have outlined -- unclearly obviously.

Lee

 What the?


Thanks, Lee,

That unclears a lot of it for me. I was trying to figure what it had to do with Oswald.

And Math - at least as touted by some people - is not held in very high regard by me either, at least not for dealing with this sort of affair. I am an accountant, after all, so math does have its place.

Now I will return and re-read your earlier post until it becomes clear.

 Very Happy

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Guest on Tue 20 May 2014, 6:48 pm

terlin wrote:
Hello Goodbye wrote:Mathematics most certainly is not my friend, Terry.  It is on my enemies list.  

However, I have a lot of time for clear questions.  Just as you need clearer exposition.  Let me try generating some answers to your unclear questions from my unclear narrative.

The locked door has got nothing to do with Oswald.  At least not in what I have outlined -- unclearly obviously.

Lee

 :face:


Thanks, Lee,

That unclears a lot of it for me. I was trying to figure what it had to do with Oswald.

And Math - at least as touted by some people - is not held in very high regard by me either, at least not for dealing with this sort of affair. I am an accountant, after all, so math does have its place.

Now I will return and re-read your earlier post until it becomes clear.

 :D

Terry,

I did say in my opening post that this was the best I could do with evidence we have.  I tried to flex my thinking in response to Richard's claims that we were all somehow part of a demented, delusional cult.

At this point I will be trying to make sense of the Mrs. Reid testimony.  I fully take on board Beowulf's reply in throwing Otis Campbell into the mix concerning the search of the second floor and my gut instict tells me that the opening and closing of the conference room was done very quickly after the assassination hence Mrs. Reid not committing in telling David Belin whether it was less than five minutes after or more than five minutes after. 

The locked conference room door was one of only two ways to access the eastern elevator on the second floor.  My curiosity is wanting to know if we have any evidence that the western door of the lunchroom was also locked.  If the answer to this is yes then we have complete access to one of the two elevators completely closed off on the second floor which makes me very suspicious especially given the information shared by Greg yesterday that the second floor seemed to be given special attention and had individuals "searching" so soon after the assassination and whose names appear to be absent from the record.

If there was a shooter or shooters on the sixth floor (and I'm on the fence concerning this) then I do not believe they would risk leaving the building by getting off the elevator on the first floor.  Especially given Truly was IMO inevitably going to go on record saying the elevators were stuck on the fifth floor -- so if a stranger was somehow seen getting off at the first floor it would stand to reason they had descended from much higher up in the building.

If it was my gig -- I'd want to get off on the second floor -- change clothes (SS, FBI or DPD uniform) -- disassemble any weapons used -- hide them somewhere -- and then become part of the search team on the second floor before exiting the building completely.  I've often wondered whether the large filing cabinet and large safe that appears in photographs of the second floor landing outside the vestibule were ever searched.  I've never found anything that specifically claims that they were.  Likewise I have never come across anything that tells us exactly how the dumb waiter worked that was situated immediately outside the conference room.  Maybe I'm just being overly suspicious  and in all likelihood I'm never going to be able to answer a lot of the questions I have.  Whenever I try to work through these problems I try to put myself in shoes of a shooter.  Where would I want to go to after firing?  Straight out?  Stick around?  What would I do with the weapon?

I think it is self-evident that the elevators were locked down that day.  Access to them from anybody on the lower floor had to be impossible.  But what lengths did whoever was planning this go to to ensure that access was stopped?  The reason I brought the conference room into proceedings is because of one very simple thing.  Reid claims that it was the northwestern door, situated inside the conference room itself, that had been locked -- and that she relocked when asked.  But why bother?  The outer door situated in the office area was left open. Access to the room could be gained from inside the office - so why lock the door on the inside?  It only makes sense to lock this inside northwestern door of the conference room to close off access to the eastern elevator.  Locking it to stop access to the conference room makes no sense because anybody wanting to get into the conference room could just get into it from the office area where the southern door was left open.  The east elevator also had the bonus of not being able to be "called" from a lower floor even if the grates were closed as it was hand controlled within the lift.  If it was left on an upper floor you literally had to go up to that floor to use it.

I do not understand it being locked.  It makes no sense.  Unless the western door of the lunchroom was also locked.  Then it makes sense.  Because you have isolated an area of the TSBD no one had access to other than two sets of people:

a) The individuals who had the keys
b) Anyone who had access to the eastern elevator above the second floor

Just to make a bad situation even worse we have to throw into the mix the fact that Truly and Baker claimed it was the east elevator that they took up to the seventh floor.  This can only be the case if it was possible for Roy Truly to see up the lift shaft and know for absolute certain that the elevator was there.  Otherwise if he couldn't see up the lift shaft then he must have known before the event that the lift was going to be there.

Or - they didn't take the lift to the seventh floor.

If he couldn't look up the lift shaft then why would he run to make sure the east elevator was in place when they reached the fifth floor?

This whole thing is wrecking my damn head...

I give up!

 :shock: 

It can't be solved because we have to rely on tetimony of proven liars...


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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Terry W. Martin on Tue 20 May 2014, 11:10 pm

Hello Goodbye wrote:
This whole thing is wrecking my damn head...

I give up!

 Shocked 

It can't be solved because we have to rely on tetimony of proven liars...

Lee,

Thanks for the elucidation. I can understand the frustration but I believe once we understand exactly why these people were lying we can still figure out the case.

After fifty years of study, there is still more to learn.

This is the case that keeps on giving!!

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 21 May 2014, 2:55 am


 
In this crop of the north end of the second floor, we see what Lee has laid out. The conference room west door was locked from the inside per the testimony of Mrs. Reid. If the lunchroom north door leading to the east elevator area was also locked (speculating), then the area outside the east elevator would be inaccessible to anyone not arriving to the area via the east elevator. This area would be "secure."
 
Of course, if this were the case, after having entered it from the east elevator, there would have to be a way for someone to get out of this "secure" area. Having keys, waiting for the right time, getting a little "help" from others to know when that might be would be such ways. Interesting to contemplate.
 
I wonder what the unmarked room between the lunchroom and the conference room was used for. Was it searched?

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Guest on Wed 21 May 2014, 3:01 am

Stan,

The unmarked room on the commission exhibit is what Mrs. Reid referred to as a "Ladies Room."

On the other side of the north wall of this "ladies room" is the dumb waiter (small box on diagram)

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 21 May 2014, 3:21 am

One other thought. A person arriving to the second floor in this configuration also has total control/exclusive use of the east elevator as long as he stays there.

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Guest on Wed 21 May 2014, 3:43 am

I also like contemplating things, Stan.

If the official version of events is true, and I'm including the lunchroom encounter as described by the Warren Commission, then we actually have two events that completely bypassed Truly and Baker during their ascent up to the fifth floor.

1)  The sound of Adams and Styles descending the wooden stairs from the fourth floor to the first floor was completely missed.

2)  The sound of the elevator descending from the fifth floor to the first floor also went unnoticed.

While there has been months worth of debate here (decades elsewhere) concerning the first event that bypassed T&B (although I have tried to lay out an alternative scenario) I will not accept that the second event went by the pair unnoticed, especially Roy Truly.

These were slow, heavy, old, noisy elevators (or lifts where I come from) and unless we add a bit more time by locking Oswald, Baker and Truly in the lunchroom for an even longer period then they should have heard the west elevator descending at some point - if that is what happened.

Instead, we are asked to believe that Truly reached the fifth floor and only then noticed that the west elevator was gone.

There is no way.  He still couldn't bring himself to categorically state for certain that the elevator wasn't there when he arrived:

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Truly, did you notice when you got to the third floor--first of all. On the second floor, was there any elevator there? 
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. 
Mr. BELIN. What about the third floor? 
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. 
Mr. BELIN. Fourth floor? 
Mr. TRULY. No, I am sure not. 
Mr. BELIN. What about the fifth floor? 
Mr. TRULY. When we reached the fifth floor, the east elevator was on that floor. 
Mr. BELIN. What about the west elevator? Was that on the fifth floor? 
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. I am sure it wasn't, or I could not have seen the east elevator. 
Mr. BELIN. All right. 
Mr. TRULY. I am almost positive that it wasn't there. 
Mr. DULLES. You said you released the elevator and let it go down? 
Mr. TRULY. No; the east elevator was the one on the fifth floor. 

As we have known for decades the elevators are one of our key jigsaw pieces.  If I'm being asked to believe Roy Truly on the elevators locations then it isn't going to happen.


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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Guest on Wed 21 May 2014, 4:08 am

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when you took the elevator to the fifth--from the fifth to the seventh floor, that east elevator did you see the west elevator at all as you passed the sixth floor, when you got to the seventh floor? 
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; because I could not see the west elevator while operating the east elevator. 
Mr. BELIN. You mean because you were not looking at it, or you just couldn't see it? 
Mr. TRULY. Well, the back of the east elevator is solid metal, and if I passed--yes; I could. I beg your pardon.
I could see it from the fifth floor. I didn't notice it anywheres up there. I wasn't really looking for it, however. 
Mr. BELIN. Now, after you got--when did you notice that west elevator next? If you know. 
Mr. TRULY. I don't know. 
Mr. BELIN. I believe you said when you first saw the elevators, you thought they were both on the same floor, the fifth floor. 
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BELIN. Then how do you explain that when you got to the fifth floor, one of the elevators was not there? 
Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. I think one of my boys was getting stock off the fifth floor on the back side, and probably moved the elevator at the time somewheres between the time we were running upstairs. And I would not have remembered that. I mean I wouldn't have really heard that, with the commotion we were making running up the enclosed stairwell. 
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone on the fifth floor? 
Mr. TRULY. Yes. When coming down I am sure I saw Jack Dougherty getting some books off the fifth floor.
Now, this is so dim in my mind that I could be making a mistake.
But I believe that he was getting some stock, that he had already gone back to work, and that he was getting some stock off the fifth floor. 

Bullshitter  :suspect:

The reason for the unspoken ESP between Baker and Truly -- that Truly "thought" Baker was trying to get to the roof -- was to cover the bullshit story that Truly recounts above in his testimony.  We are asked to believe that Truly just guessed that the roof was the destination?  Why, because assassins don't use windows to fire out of?

No.  The unspoken roof destination is to hide a simple truth.

If Truly saw both elevators on the fifth floor by looking up the shaft on the first floor then the west elevators absence when they got to the fifth floor should have set alarm bells ringing because, if any of this nonsense is true, someone had gone down.

But it didn't set anything ringing -- as per Truly's testimony above -- he "just wasn't looking for" the west elevator.  Even though it had to not be there for him to see the east elevator in position.

So the unspoken ESP about the roof destination was necessary.

This is just unbelievable...

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 21 May 2014, 5:38 am

Let me see if I got this straight.
 
Truly was being wishy washy as to the location of the west elevator (I'm US but I always liked "lift" better). While looking up the dark shaft, Truly sees both elevators up on the fifth floor. Truly and Baker commence running up the stairs making a ton of commotion in the process (with the pregnant pause-laden "timeout" on the second floor). They continue thundering up to the fifth floor like a herd of buffalo, making so much noise that they couldn't hear anything else (like the "super quiet" west elevator moving). Besides, Truly would not have remembered that anyway.
 
Our heroes arrive on the fifth floor. They see the east elevator (yea!) but not the west elevator (boo). Upon further reflection, Truly says he's "almost positive" the west elevator wasn't there (???). At this point he seems to have become gripped with selective retrograde amnesia, because he just doesn't remember a damned thing about the west elevator. He covers this up by saying he really wasn't looking for it, however.
 
One thing he was sure of (that's why they call it selective retrograde amnesia) was that he saw Jack ("I never met a camera I liked") Dougherty working away like Employee of the Year, not a bit distracted by all of the gunshots, commotion, and general hoopla.

Am I close?

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Guest on Wed 21 May 2014, 6:07 am

Stan Dane wrote:Let me see if I got this straight.
 
Truly was being wishy washy as to the location of the west elevator (I'm US but I always liked "lift" better). While looking up the dark shaft, Truly sees both elevators up on the fifth floor. Truly and Baker commence running up the stairs making a ton of commotion in the process (with the pregnant pause-laden "timeout" on the second floor). They continue thundering up to the fifth floor like a herd of buffalo, making so much noise that they couldn't hear anything else (like the "super quiet" west elevator moving). Besides, Truly would not have remembered that anyway.
 
Our heroes arrive on the fifth floor. They see the east elevator (yea!) but not the west elevator (boo). Upon further reflection, Truly says he's "almost positive" the west elevator wasn't there (???). At this point he seems to have become gripped with selective retrograde amnesia, because he just doesn't remember a damned thing about the west elevator. He covers this up by saying he really wasn't looking for it, however.
 
One thing he was sure of (that's why they call it selective retrograde amnesia) was that he saw Jack ("I never met a camera I liked") Dougherty working away like Employee of the Year, not a bit distracted by all of the gunshots, commotion, and general hoopla.

Am I close?

Almost.

Truly's recollection of Dougherty being there was "dim in his mind" and he could be "making a mistake" -- possibly due to the fact that it was "retarded" Jack that was supposed to have taken the west elevator down, back up, sideways and through the roof like Willie Wonka's great glass elevator!

Maybe this was dim in his mind because lunchroom door sized Marrion Baker was in front of Truly - blocking his view?  Or because Baker was behind Truly and his lunchroom door sized shadow made everything dim?  

I haven't been this confused since I let the ghost of Cecil McWatters try to explain to me how the transfer system worked on the Dallas buses.   :face:


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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Guest on Wed 21 May 2014, 6:24 am

Another line of inquiry to look into is why Bonnie Ray Williams changed his story during his Warren Commission testimony to become the last person to use the east elevator prior to it allegedly being used by Truly and Baker.

Williams originally said he used the west elevator to go up to the sixth floor.

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 21 May 2014, 6:47 am

Wasn't Williams another one of those "slightly retarded" employees who Truly said worked there?

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

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