No Shots Fired From The TSBD

First topic message reminder :

This thread has been transferred from the Webs forum, to escape the huge amount oftext you can look at the original post here: 
http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/rokc%20forum/www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13229572-no-shots-fired-from-tsbd.html
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



We have no photographic or film evidence of any shots from the Sixth floor window.
We have Robert MacNeil saying the men inside were unusually calm considering the excitement outside.
We have film and photos of the employees entering the TSBD. No worries, No cares, but that it was later claimed to be the TSBD that the lone gunman took aim from.
What you wont find is anyone from inside running out and yelling that a killer is shooting from in the building.
No strangers was the reply from all employees in answering had they seen any strangers in the building. Yet a building across the street did have strangers inside. The Dal-Tex building.
One man gave an alias. Jim Braden, the other was Larry Florer. The DPD listed them as being on 4th floor of TSBD. A mistake or an attempt to locate them in a building later associated with the shooting.

Given all that has been discovered about the snipers nest, the evidence, the film and photos, the building with suspicious characters was the Daltex building not the TSBD.
Review of first accounts and statements show none claiming the TSBD as the origin.
Later on statements and claims would fall into line with the official account.
The bystanders outside would have interesting stories of gun men or a colored man or rifle barrel protruding...what none claim is actually seeing the gun fire. The dance some will get themselves into trying to claim having seen the rifle yet no shot come from it is comical. The films show no rifle let alone a shot emanating from the SixFloorWindow. Yet this is the history we are told to swallow? Oh not so fast.
This is the start of the Fact, that NO SHOTS WERE FIRED FROM THE TSBD!

Let's Begin:

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104


I mentioned in another thread about Bob Jackson, Euins, and Brennan were the Warren Commissions go to guys for saying shots came from the Texas School book depository.  I do not agree.

Robert Hill "Bob" Jackson deliberately provided false statements that he had seen the shooter actually firing the weapon from the Snipers Nest window. DPD Sgt. W.G. Jennings' report: "Bob Jackson... is reported to have seen the rifle and the man that fired the shots as the shots were fired." (v19p517)

When taken to task he folded and later would claim only seeing the rifle drawn back in slowly. Not seeing it fired. Not seeing a shooter.
Mr. JACKSON - Right here approximately. And as we heard the first shot, I believe it was Tom Dillard from the Dallas News who made some remark as to that sounding like a firecracker, and it could have been somebody else who said that. But someone else did speak up and make that comment and before he actually the sentence we heard the other two shots. Then we realized or we thought it was gunfire, and then we could not at that point see the President's car. We were still moving slowly, and after the third shot the second two shots seemed much closer together than the first shot, than they were to the first shot. Then after the last shot, I guess all of us were just looking all around and I just looked straight up ahead of me which would have been looking at the School Book Depository and I noticed two Negro men in a window straining to see directly above them, and my eyes followed right on up to the window above them and I saw the rifle, or what looked like a rifle approximately half of weapon, I guess I saw. and just looked at it, it was drawn fairly slowly back into the building, and I saw no one in the window with it. I didn't even see a form in the window.

Interestingly the same description Brennan would claim of the rifle being drawn back in slowly.
He gets Dillard etc to go along. Even though Dillard snapped two photos he did not capture a weapon or shooter. He took two general shots with two cameras facing the TSBD as that was the way they were facing driving down Houston.
Bob did not take photos of the scene or building.
Bob had two cameras also, one was loaded and camera ready.
Bob would make excuses and change the story he gave. No film, it was too quick to take a picture, wrong lens, and he's a bad press photographer.
I don't buy any of those excuses.
Yet here is a press photographer saying he is witnessing the shooting, knows its a rifle, knows the window, saw the shooter and so he does what? He takes zero photographs of the building. Doesn't even try! Doesn't stay in the area to capture what would usually turn into a standoff or capture of a suspect. Does he tell or flag a cop down, like the motorcycle cops near him, cops on the corner...nope.  He just rides on past.
If he knows there is a shooter how does he know if it is a security measure, (secret service) or an assassin? He would not, he might assume it was a assassin. But then that makes his inactions even more telling, as he doesn't even exit the car with the other three when they get to the corner. I do believe he is covering for his short comings.

Jackson doesn't take a single image of the TSBD either.  Not even now at the corner when his wide angle lens excuse would be a non starter. So was HALF a rifle protruding from a window? No! That is a silly mans claim.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your estimate of how many inches of the rifle that you observed?

Mr. JACKSON - I saw the barrel and about half - well, I did not see a telescopic sight, but I did see part of the stock, so I guess maybe 8 or 10 inches of the stock maybe. I did see part of the stock, I did not see the sight.

Mr. SPECTER - Eight or ten inches of the stock, and how much of the barrel would you estimate?

Mr. JACKSON - I guess possibly a foot.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you see anyone's hands on the rifle?

Mr. JACKSON - No, sir.

So here we have Jackson seeing about twelve inches of barrel on a gun that only has a few inches of barrel showing.
With half the rifle out the window he suposedly does not see a hand on the weapon. Compare this to Euins.
I guess he didn't get the memo about the book box being used as a rest. Jackson would have LHO leaning over those and practiacally sticking his head out the window, past the casing to be able to have that much gun shown. Ridiculous is too kind a word for Jackson's claims.

Mr. SPECTER - Has there been any variation in your recollection or impressions about your observations on these occasions?
Mr. JACKSON - Not to my knowledge. The other times were not as thorough as this.

Suborn perjury much Mr. Specter?
Again Bob said what to whom?
DPD Sgt. W.G. Jennings' report: "Bob Jackson... is reported to have seen the rifle and the man that fired the shots as the shots were fired."
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0268a.htm

And did they talk amonst themselves and share details?Representative Ford - Have you ever talked with any others in the car?
Mr. JACKSON - I have never sat down and talked with them about the events, no, sir. I have seen them, of course, several times but I have never discussed it with them.
Representative Ford - You never discussed what you said or what they said?

Mr. JACKSON - No, sir. I guess the one man I have discussed it more with than anybody else was Tom Dillard, the chief photographer for the Dallas News, and we recalled to each other the scene but we really never went into any detail or as to what each one of us said either.

Wow he back tracked on not talking to the others, to saying the one he talked with more than the others is Dillard, in the space of a sentence.
Bob you should stick to snapping pictures, you'd never make it as a witness in murder trial. He'd be locked up by any judge worth his robe.


Now how about famous Amos Euins,

We can read his first day statement and see what he says he saw.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/12/1284-001.gif

I am presently going to school at Franklin D. Roosevelt high School and am

in the 9th grade. I got out of school this morning to see the President of

the United States when he came to Dallas. I was standing on the corner of

Elm and Houston street. From where I was standing I could look across the

street and see a large red brick building. I saw the President turn the

corner in front of me and I waived at him and he waived back. I watched

the car on down the street and about the time the car got back near the

black and white sign I heard a shot. I started looking around and then I

looked up in the red brick building. I saw a man in a window with a gun

and I saw him shoot twice. He then stepped back behind some boxes. I could

tell the gun was a rifle and it sounded like an automatic rifle the way he

was shooting. I just saw a little bit of the barrel, and some of the

trigger housing. This was a white man, he did not have on a hat. I just

saw this man for a few seconds. As far as I know, I had never seen this

man before.

 



WC Testimony

Mr. EUINS. All I got to see was the man with a spot in his head,

because he had his head something like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating his face down, looking down the rifle?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir: and I could see the spot on his head.

Mr. EUINS. I wouldn't know how to describe him, because all I could

see was the spot and his hand.

Interesting how Euins and Jackson destroy each others claims.


Total fabrication. No man, no spot, no hand. Thusly no description despite the clear view of a 'bald spot'

Mr. SPECTER. Of what race was he, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. I couldn't tell, because these boxes were throwing a

reflection, shaded.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you tell whether he was a Negro gentleman or a

white man?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Couldn't even tell that? But you have described that he

had a bald--

Mr. EUINS. Spot in his head. Yes, sir; I could see the bald spot in

his head.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, could you tell what color hair he had?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you tell whether his hair was dark or light?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

More ridiculous claims by Euins.
Of course in his first day statement he said the shooter was a white male. Yet says he meant it was a white spot, the bald spot was white.
Yet the bald spot was on a colored fellow now, or shaded. Not sure colored folks would agree with the colored boy. Usually a white spot is attached to a white persons scalp. And vice versa.
What color was the hand? Shaded even though its sticking out? Please. He blabbed to Underwood and Kent Biffle the man was colored.
Yet Euins claims seeing the rifle, hand and spot firing two shots. No clothing, no person, just a white bald spot and five digits. Boy I'd like to see the composite drawing of that suspect....
STAN HELP US OUT HERE!!!

So Euins change his story regarding the race of the supposed shooter.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to tell anything about the clothes he was

wearing?

Mr. EUINS: No, sir.

Not much help in adding to the disembodied hand and bald spot is he?

Mr. UNDERWOOD.

"It may have been Euins. It was difficult to understand when he said his

name. He was telling the motorcycle officer he had seen a colored man lean

out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle. He was telling this to the

officer and the officer took him over and put him in a squad car. By that

time, motorcycle officers were arriving, homicide officers were arriving

and I went over and asked this boy if he had seen someone with a rifle and

he said "Yes, sir." I said, "Were they white or black?" He said, "It was a

colored man." I said, "Are you sure it was a colored man?" He said, "Yes,

sir" and I asked him his name and the only thing I could understand was

what I thought his name was Eunice."

Biffle heard the same description, colored.

Underwood continues,

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; the last two. Now, the first was just a loud explosion but it sounded like a giant firecracker or something had gone off. By the time the third shot was fired, the car I was in stopped almost through the intersection in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and I leaped out of the car before the car stopped. Bob Jackson from the Herald said he thought he saw a rifle in the window and I looked where he pointed and I saw nothing. Below the window he was pointing at, I saw two colored men leaning out there with their heads turned toward the top of the building, trying, I suppose, to determine where the shots were coming from.

Mr. BALL. What words did you hear Bob Jackson say?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I don't know that I can remember exactly except I did hear him say words to the effect that "I saw a rifle" and I looked at that instant and I saw nothing myself. If he saw a rifle, I did not.


Even though Jackson said the rifle was slowly drawn back in, it doesn't square with what Underwood described, if the withdrawl was slow.

How about Dillard?

Mr. BALL - Did you see anything in the windows?

Mr. DILLARD - No.

Mr. BALL - Did you see a rifle barrel?

Mr. DILLARD - No.


Kind leaves Jackson as a Lone Nut.
Here we have all the others in the car facing the same way, watching the same window and yet they are not seeing what Bob claimed. They even had photographs to disprove Bob. So Bob had to modify his later claims.

Mal Couch had this to say,

Mr. COUCH - Nothing unusual between the shots. Uh - as I say, the first shot, I had no particular impression; but the second shot, I remember turning - several of us turning - and looking ahead of us. It was unusual for a motorcycle to backfire that close together, it seemed like. And after the third shot, Bob Jackson who was as I recall, on my right, yelled something like, "Look up in the window! There's the rifle!" And I remember glancing up to a window on the far right, which at the time impressed me as the sixth or seventh floor. And seeing about a foot of a rifle being - the barrel brought into the window. I saw no one in the window - just a quick 1-second glance at the barrel.

Thus none of the press photographers "saw the rifle" fire.

I would have asked to describe the rifle, was the barrel silver, black, gun blued? We get a counselor not worth snot in Belin and don't know what was seen or if it was really seen. Under cross Couch and the bunch would have been pressed for such details and when those details did or didn't match we would likely know how and where they had colluded their stories.

Mr. BELIN - Do you remember whether or not that window at which you saw the rifle, you say, being withdrawn - first of all, could you tell it was a rifle?

Mr. COUCH - Yes, I'd say you could. Uh - if a person was just standing on the - as much as I saw, if the factors that did happen, did not happen, you might not say that it was a rifle. In other words, if you just saw an object being pulled back into a window, you might not think anything of it. But with the excitement intense right after that third shot and what Bob yelled, my impression was that it was a rifle.

Here we have it in a nut shell, Bob Jackson cried wolf, and Mal was duped to think he saw a "rifle"

--
 
“Is everything a conspiracy? No. Only the important stuff.” Jeff Wells, Rigorous Intuition
 
PM is THE litmus test of intellectual integrity for researching this case.
Those who fall back on the fuxxy picture defense are not of a caliber to understand the ins-and-outs of this case. ~ Terry Martin
 


Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104

 

 

Howard Leslie Brennan.

 

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure his self that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I am confused here, the way this shows. But I believe this is the sixth floor, the way those windows are built there right at the present. I am confused whether this is the same window.

 

Brennan although confused said he Saw a shooter in an open window? Half open, fully open?

 

Brennan testified that "the suspect not only leaned out the window, but he "sat sideways on the window sill" (WC Volume 3 page 144)

 

Tough to do with a barely open window wouldn't you say? This does not match the SN window.

 

Mr. BRENNAN. I thought they were standing with their elbows on the window sill leaning out. (I strongly suspect he is describing the colored group of boys on 5th floor)

Mr. BELIN. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of the man could you see?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I could see at one time he came to the window and he sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President Kennedy getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from his hips up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility from his belt up. (Aren't your hips at belt level???)

 

Mr. BELIN. How much of the gun do you believe that you saw?

Mr. BRENNAN. I calculate 70 to 85 percent of the gun.(How does everyone know how much of the gun they thought they saw unless they were shown or saw the whole gun or MC later and confligrated this into their memories, plus if you can see half or 85% then you should be able to describe the scope and how the shooter was working the action and reaquiring the sight through the scope...this did not happen folks!!)

 

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle explode? Did you see the flash of what was either the second or the third shot?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Could you see that he had discharged the rifle?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. For some reason I did not get an echo at any time. The first shot was positive and clear and the last shot was positive and dear, with no echo on my part.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes. But you saw him aim?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or the flash?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

 

Here Brennan clears up his sighting of a rifle being fired, he says he DID NOT SEE IT FIRE! That is a 180* about face on seeing the "rifle" fire.

 

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, I wonder if you would take on Exhibit 482, if you can kind of mark the way the rifle was at the time you saw it.

Here is a red pencil. If you could put on Exhibit 482 the direction that you saw the rifle pointing, sir.

Mr. BRENNAN. I would say more at this angle. Maybe not as far out as this.

Exhibit 482 below with "rifle" shown as line below arrow, notice the book box 'gun rest' is oddly placed






Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not any part of the rifle was protruding out of the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. On a straight view like that it looked like it was.

But as I have told investigating officers prior, a person would have to be at an angle to tell how much was protruding out of the window. It did look

at that time that as much was protruding out of the window as there was in the window.

 

How would Brennan know that? He would need to see the whole rifle to be able to make this specious claim? And yet no scope observed?

Scope was lacking from those whom claimed to see a rifle, a rifle was later brought out of the TSBD with a scope.

 

Again no one truthfully said they saw the "rifle" or any gun fire from the TSBD.

 

What did Inspector Sawyer say about shots from the building?

Please watch the short video interview with him at the TSBD on 11/22.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrPhED9YhlE

 

No shots were associated with the TSBD, rifle and man is the way Sawyer describes what these witnesses told him.

 

 

Rather telling is the Commissions use of Mrs Cabell

 

Mayor and Mrs. Earle Cabell rode in the motorcade immediately behind the Vice-Presidential follow-up car.28 Mrs. Cabell was seated in the back seat behind the driver and was facing U.S. Representative Ray Roberts on her right as the car made the turn at Elm and Houston. In this position Mrs. Cabell "was actually facing" the seven-story Depository when the first shot rang out.29 She "jerked" her head up immediately and saw a "projection" in the first group of windows on a floor which she described both as the sixth floor and the top floor.30 According to Mrs. Cabell, the object was "rather long looking," but she was unable to determine whether it was a mechanical object or a person's arm.31 She turned away from the window to tell her husband that the noise was a shot, and "just as I got the words out ... the second two shots rang out." 32 Mrs. Cabell did not look at the sixth-floor window when the second and third shots were fired.33

An arm, a broom, a mop, a wooden window strip are all long, do not have a scope and do not fire bullets, just like the object seen in a window (open fully) and none claim to see it fire any projectiles.

 

James N. Crawford and Mary Ann Mitchell, two deputy district clerks for Dallas County, watched the motorcade at the southeast corner of Elm and Houston. After the President's car turned the corner, Crawford heard a loud report which he thought was backfire coming from the direction of the Triple Underpass.34 He heard a second shot seconds later, followed quickly by a third. At the third shot, he looked up and saw a "movement" in the far east corner of the sixth floor of the Depository, the only open window on that floor.Witness gives no confirmation of a rifle being fired from the building. Only "movement" in a window, no withdrawl of a rifle, simply motion.

 

That concludes the Commissions case for proving a rifle was fired from the TSBD via eye witness testimony, films, and photos.

The Warren Commission failed to prove their contentions and claims that a rifle with a scope fired from the Sixth Floor far eastern window.

 

Cheers, Ed!

 

 

 

--
 
“Is everything a conspiracy? No. Only the important stuff.” Jeff Wells, Rigorous Intuition
 
PM is THE litmus test of intellectual integrity for researching this case.
Those who fall back on the fuxxy picture defense are not of a caliber to understand the ins-and-outs of this case. ~ Terry Martin
 



Paul Francisco Paso
Administrator
Posts: 729

Good stuff, Ed! I knew a bit about Brennan but not so much about the others. I once read a rumor that Brennan stole Euins version he had overheard and ran with it. He must have got shit scared pretty quickly when he was asked to do the lineup. The WC had to bring him back to dispel another certain rumor that he had told some fellows from an NBC affiliate that he had initially thought the shots had come from where the railways were.


Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104

Thank you Paul. 
These are the Warren Reports best witnesses to gunfire coming from the TSBD.
Pretty shabby lot. Guess every cop, sheriff and law man within a block was too busy waving at the parade to notice the things Brennan, Euins and Co. "see"...leave it to the amatures.

Too funny about Brennan's double-header with the WC to correct him.
You can't have your star playing for the other team now can you. 

That Star was a dunce as he later recounted,

Since we expected the President to pass by at 12:30, this was normally the time I would have been at lunch. I was the only one in the group who had decided to see the President. After finishing my coffee, I got back to work as quickly as possible and the minutes seemed to fly. I began to feel excitement and I knew that one day it would be something I could tell my grandchildren.

As I finished welding one particular piece, I glanced at my watch and noticed it was just 11:30, time to quit for lunch. I put away my equipment carefully, expecting to get back to it in about an hour. I walked in front of the Texas Book Depository and crossed the street on my way to the cafeteria located at Main and Record Streets. I knew that if I left to eat now I’d beat the noon crowds and still have a chance to see the President. When I reached the cafeteria, I looked through the window to see that there was almost no line at all.

The cashier rang up my total and gave me my change. She said, “I wish I could leave here soon enough to see the President as he goes by. But with the crowd that’s going to be in I’ll miss the whole thing!” I felt sorry for her and said, “Well, you might get trampled in the crowd!” I picked up my tray and looked until I found a window seat where I could view the scene that was beginning to unfold on the sidewalk. The always busy downtown was becoming alive with movement. People were coming out of buildings and rushing to their destinations. A long line had formed in the cafeteria where I had gone through only a couple of minutes earlier.

Another thing I noticed as I looked out the window was that some people had begun standing at the curb in anticipation of the coming President. It was still more than thirty minutes before he was scheduled to pass, but the jostling for position had started. It was a pleasant, well-dressed crowd from the hundreds of offices in the surrounding area. I realized that the same thing was happening all along the parade route and I had better decide what I was going to do in order to be able to see. Although I’m not short, neither could I see over some six-footer, so I tried to figure out where I could get a good view.

I remembered that the Presidential motorcade would be turning off Houston onto Elm, and that there was a wall about four feet high in Dealy [sic] Plaza that would give me an excellent view. If I could get a seat on the wall, I’d have a panoramic view of the whole area. I finished my lunch and walked out of the cafeteria to be greeted by a bright sun that had come out just in time for the parade. I thought, “That’s a good sign!” I looked at my watch which indicated 12:18. By now I could hear as well as sense the excitement in the air. The sidewalks were lined to capacity.


Had the motorcade been on time, 12:10, Howard Brennan would have seen the last press bus go by... what a maroon.


Barto
Moderator
Posts: 1915




Above: Charles Brehm (after first misidentifying him for Brennan, thx Paul) doing a phoner!



Below: Howard Brennan sitting on the eldge (yup the guy from the Village People......)






--
_________________________________________________________________________________
Prayer Man The Movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0B8JhOe3KU
Prayer Man website: http://www.prayer-man.com/
Prayer Man on Twitter: https://twitter.com/PMisLeeOswald
 


Terry Martin
Moderator
Posts: 1143

Ed, I agree with your contention that there were feasibly (love that word) no shots fired from the TSBD.


If I was going to frame a patsy that worked in the building I most certainly would not want a real shooter to be inside gumming up the planting of the evidence and the framing of the mark. That would just be stooopid.


As far as the patsy being out front...? Hell, intimidation and threats do wonderful things in sharpening witnesses' memories. But putting a real shooter in the building? No, far too risky. While people were chasing shadows in the TSBD, the shooters could quite safely get away from their various snipers' nests... that or just flip open their Secret Service credentials.



--
"If God had intended for Man to do anything but copulate, He would have given us brains." - - - Ignatz Verbotham
August 12, 2015 at 8:48 AM



Mick Purdy
Moderator
Posts: 1403

I've always thought so too Terry, at least no shots from the sixth floor anyways. Somebody had to have been setting up the snipers nest and planting the goodies at around 12.30. Surely this was not done while someone took pot shots at JFK from that very same window.

Ed has presented a very persuasive case for there being no shots fired from the TSBD IMO

Just repeating the claim in the articl Hasan.
They shit canned the report so no one would believe anything they said anyway. Dubious word of criminals....

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/N%20Disk/National%20Enquirer%20FBI%20Records%20From%201-8-78%20Releases/Item%2006.pdf

FBI discrediting attempt is comical.

Carr is an enigma as is Craig.

Negro piloting station wagon seemed to be the last thing DPD wanted to confirm. You know behind the scenes a hunt for dark complected driver was under way if only to silence or threaten said accomplice.

Yet this driver, supposed negro, would not be hauling a rifle, unlike Wesley's tale of curtain rodded packaging.

Why no innocent station wagon pilots popping up.

Seems to be a limited hangout all its own that wagon.

Bob Jackson drivel,



If the DPD told you there was NO SHIT in this sandwich would you take a bite? Mmmmm nah




David Von Pein asked:
"So, Tony, should all JFK researchers REALLY just ignore the testimony
of Brennan, Euins, Couch, and Jackson (with respect to each of those
persons saying they definitely saw a gun in the SN window)? "

Yes they should be ignored.

Each has been shown to have made false statements, false claims which have been shown to be FALSE. None of their testimony or statements hold water.
Films of them and of the TSBD windows prove they have embellished the truth, the truth is they are not truthful.
And David's trick of stacking falsehoods does not by its volume overcome the tiny fact they each are proven liars.

How does anyone say with a straight face that shots came from the TSBD?

And as Bart has shown Mal not only said he saw a rifle withdrawn, which even Bob Jackson thought a lie since he said the rifle he saw was withdrawn by the time he said anything. So be your own judge when he says he saw the rifle "EMERGE" from a window.
Associated Press, Nov 22nd at 13:50 p.m. CST.

Von Pein is on someone's payroll. It's the only logical reason he would push such vacuous BS for so long. Only Cinque and other Doylesque idiots would do that and DVP is not an idiot. DVP never acknowledges any possibilities other than the official story. I don't see a conspiracy behind every bush, but I'm not too naive to realize there is no organized disinformation and active obfuscation talking place here. He's more along the lines of a Gary Mack, but less subtle.

That is the problem with the likes of a Von Pein, he/they are shown to be incorrect but by his constant implication of Oswald with evidence that actually leads no where (Klein's/SeaPortTraders/PostOffice/RailwayExpress/Banks) he tries to pull wool over the eyes of the fellow believers.
How many times in how many books, threads and emails to Von Pein that show he has nothing officially that verifies its Oswald's rifle, or Oswald's pistol. From residues to fibers Von Pein just keeps implying the scant evidence is enough... Nah Davey boy it isn't.
His superficial site and rants don't have any real substance behind them.
When boiled down Von Penzoil is a snake oil sales man.
Same oil his clan fries chickens in.

I do not proclaim to know exactly where the shot came from that hit JFK in the upper back, unlike Davey, as the autopsy was less than forthcoming with probe angles and gunshot forensics.
The head wound ...forget about it.

But the idea the shots were from the upper floor of the TSBD is a conspiracy theory without merit.

Proven by the highest authority to not have happened.
Yet Davey keeps preaching from his book of useless facts
known as the Warren Report. Davey has to bury his head in sand for the Hughes film and Itek destroyed his notions of a TSBD shooter. That is not enough for a Von Pein though.

Seems Von Pein has no real world basis for saying what he does.
I guess as long as the crooked government keeps publishing an old book we should just go along with their false premise... nah forget Davey Von Pein and his book of white lies aimed at one man, an innocent feller named Lee Oswald.
We know the game was rigged which makes Davey's foray even more disturbing.
And yes he does it not blindly, but has to account for the dishonest approach he takes just as the one sided Warrenati were. Davey is okay with the DPD and Henry Wade as seen through the eyes of history, the most corrupt police force and district attorney in America and Davey is fine with their evidence and statements,,,,no matter how conflicted they are.
And as said before Davey's trip through the evidence is circular, no path or documented course, just a whirlwind to confuse and impugn a man whom could not be or do what Davey and 'his' book claims.

Cheers, Ed

Compare the reporters reports to a Police Officer standing and observing the same situation.

Mitchell's seeing no one in the window is supported by the film and photos.
Fischer's account is of Dougherty taking a nap. A blonde Dougherty?

Can we just foia his records

Ed. Ledoux wrote:Can we just foia his records

I agree Ed,

I know we can't rely on intuition or gut feel, but I have the same suspicions about this guy as I have with BWF.

Something stinks with this bloke, I can't explain it but when you've read the various accounts from others that day and his version of events etc, well something just doesn't ring true.

I wish we could identify him, learn a little more about him.

FOIA maybe the answer

Thanks Mick,

Would be nice to have something solid.
BWF should have given or asked about his description by now.

Here is something else to consider while the rifle is sticking out of the window...
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=40395&search=carolyn_arnold#relPageId=48&tab=page

Window Strip, or Rolling Reader either would be considered hard surfaces

Rests are usually sand bags

Ed. Ledoux wrote:No one talked to those prisoners, the ones right across from the SFW... thx Bart.
Shows they had no interest as no one saw anything close to a rifle fire from the TSBD.

Too right Ed.

This threads a beaut!

Thank a million Mick!

I reread the thread and I agree it is quite good.

Cheers, Ed

Ed. Ledoux wrote:Thank a million Mick!

I reread the thread and I agree it is quite good.

Cheers, Ed

ROKC is where all the good stuff is. The rest of the forums sell frozen goods. All the fresh stuff is here.

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

Ed. Ledoux wrote:Thank a million Mick!

I reread the thread and I agree it is quite good.

Cheers, Ed

ROKC is where all the good stuff is. The rest of the forums sell frozen goods. All the fresh stuff is here.

Paul you make me laugh,

But it's so true, take a look at our sticky's they're fresher than fresh. This place is the place to be for sure.

barto wrote:Here is something else to consider while the rifle is sticking out of the window...
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=40395&search=carolyn_arnold#relPageId=48&tab=page

Mr. BELIN. When did you put your initials on the boxes, 653 and 641, if you know?
Mr. DAY. I am not certain whether it was the 22d or 25th when we collected the boxes.
Mr. BELIN. I notice your initials are also on 641, is that correct?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Again you have marked the side of the box as being the top, that correct?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Putting your initials on there?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; and my name is on it "J. C. Day."
Mr. BELIN. If you put your initials on or your name on on November 25, how do you know this was the same box that was there when you first came?
Mr. DAY. There was a scar on the top of or the top side of this box that was sitting there. I noticed that at the time. I thought the recoil of the gun had caused that. I later decided that was in the wrong direction. It was not the recoil of the gun but I did notice this scar on the box.
Mr. BELIN. When you came back on the 25th where did you find this box, 641?
Mr. DAY. They were still in the area of the window but had been moved from their original position.
Mr. BELIN. Does that scar appear on the box in 733?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Ed. Ledoux wrote:

barto wrote:Here is something else to consider while the rifle is sticking out of the window...
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=40395&search=carolyn_arnold#relPageId=48&tab=page

Mr. BELIN. When did you put your initials on the boxes, 653 and 641, if you know?
Mr. DAY. I am not certain whether it was the 22d or 25th when we collected the boxes.
Mr. BELIN. I notice your initials are also on 641, is that correct?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Again you have marked the side of the box as being the top, that correct?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Putting your initials on there?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; and my name is on it "J. C. Day."
Mr. BELIN. If you put your initials on or your name on on November 25, how do you know this was the same box that was there when you first came?
Mr. DAY. There was a scar on the top of or the top side of this box that was sitting there. I noticed that at the time. I thought the recoil of the gun had caused that. I later decided that was in the wrong direction. It was not the recoil of the gun but I did notice this scar on the box.
Mr. BELIN. When you came back on the 25th where did you find this box, 641?
Mr. DAY. They were still in the area of the window but had been moved from their original position.
Mr. BELIN. Does that scar appear on the box in 733?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Consider this considered Ed,

Prisoners, Dougherty and the long list of people whom should have been talked to. I wonder what time Friday afternoon it was decided and conveyed to the troops on the ground that they should desist and withdraw from further investigations of potential suspects.

I'd say - just a hunch - long before Frazier had his second interrogation session. Hmmmmm!

Well done Ed, you have made an extremely good case for no shots fired....

We know that Kennedy was shot from behind with at least one shot so if not the TSBD there's not too many other buildings the shot/s could've come from imo.

Slowly slowly catchy monkey.

Mick, the fix was in before the stuff was sent to the FBI that evening. Day virtually admits this as the lunch sack and pop bottle (and wooden strip) were not sent with Drain. He stated the reason being Oswald's prints were not found on them. The Lone Nut filter was being applied late on day 1. Likely and order from Hoover down. Does anyone believe there were no prints on that lunch sack!!! Any other person being involved was deep sixed inside 12 hours. The rest of the investigation was done merely to support to Oswald alone scenario.

Colin Crow wrote:Mick, the fix was in before the stuff was sent to the FBI that evening. Day virtually admits this as the lunch sack and pop bottle (and wooden strip) were not sent with Drain. He stated the reason being Oswald's prints were not found on them. The Lone Nut filter was being applied late on day 1. Likely and order from Hoover down. Does anyone believe there were no prints on that lunch sack!!! Any other person being involved was deep sixed inside 12 hours. The rest of the investigation was done merely to support to Oswald alone scenario.

Funny too Colin that Hoover and Wade had connections, I'm sure that has a bearing in proceedings and although nothing more than gut feel and a hunch, I would lay money on the fact that these two were talking constantly that Friday....

You can imagine the phone melt down when Curry said the FBI knew of Oswald but didn't tell the DPD!

Hoover would be screaming his tits off....

I'm not so sure they remained good friends post the assassination aftermath.