No Shots Fired From The TSBD

First topic message reminder :

This thread has been transferred from the Webs forum, to escape the huge amount oftext you can look at the original post here: 
http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/rokc%20forum/www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13229572-no-shots-fired-from-tsbd.html
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



We have no photographic or film evidence of any shots from the Sixth floor window.
We have Robert MacNeil saying the men inside were unusually calm considering the excitement outside.
We have film and photos of the employees entering the TSBD. No worries, No cares, but that it was later claimed to be the TSBD that the lone gunman took aim from.
What you wont find is anyone from inside running out and yelling that a killer is shooting from in the building.
No strangers was the reply from all employees in answering had they seen any strangers in the building. Yet a building across the street did have strangers inside. The Dal-Tex building.
One man gave an alias. Jim Braden, the other was Larry Florer. The DPD listed them as being on 4th floor of TSBD. A mistake or an attempt to locate them in a building later associated with the shooting.

Given all that has been discovered about the snipers nest, the evidence, the film and photos, the building with suspicious characters was the Daltex building not the TSBD.
Review of first accounts and statements show none claiming the TSBD as the origin.
Later on statements and claims would fall into line with the official account.
The bystanders outside would have interesting stories of gun men or a colored man or rifle barrel protruding...what none claim is actually seeing the gun fire. The dance some will get themselves into trying to claim having seen the rifle yet no shot come from it is comical. The films show no rifle let alone a shot emanating from the SixFloorWindow. Yet this is the history we are told to swallow? Oh not so fast.
This is the start of the Fact, that NO SHOTS WERE FIRED FROM THE TSBD!

Let's Begin:

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104


I mentioned in another thread about Bob Jackson, Euins, and Brennan were the Warren Commissions go to guys for saying shots came from the Texas School book depository.  I do not agree.

Robert Hill "Bob" Jackson deliberately provided false statements that he had seen the shooter actually firing the weapon from the Snipers Nest window. DPD Sgt. W.G. Jennings' report: "Bob Jackson... is reported to have seen the rifle and the man that fired the shots as the shots were fired." (v19p517)

When taken to task he folded and later would claim only seeing the rifle drawn back in slowly. Not seeing it fired. Not seeing a shooter.
Mr. JACKSON - Right here approximately. And as we heard the first shot, I believe it was Tom Dillard from the Dallas News who made some remark as to that sounding like a firecracker, and it could have been somebody else who said that. But someone else did speak up and make that comment and before he actually the sentence we heard the other two shots. Then we realized or we thought it was gunfire, and then we could not at that point see the President's car. We were still moving slowly, and after the third shot the second two shots seemed much closer together than the first shot, than they were to the first shot. Then after the last shot, I guess all of us were just looking all around and I just looked straight up ahead of me which would have been looking at the School Book Depository and I noticed two Negro men in a window straining to see directly above them, and my eyes followed right on up to the window above them and I saw the rifle, or what looked like a rifle approximately half of weapon, I guess I saw. and just looked at it, it was drawn fairly slowly back into the building, and I saw no one in the window with it. I didn't even see a form in the window.

Interestingly the same description Brennan would claim of the rifle being drawn back in slowly.
He gets Dillard etc to go along. Even though Dillard snapped two photos he did not capture a weapon or shooter. He took two general shots with two cameras facing the TSBD as that was the way they were facing driving down Houston.
Bob did not take photos of the scene or building.
Bob had two cameras also, one was loaded and camera ready.
Bob would make excuses and change the story he gave. No film, it was too quick to take a picture, wrong lens, and he's a bad press photographer.
I don't buy any of those excuses.
Yet here is a press photographer saying he is witnessing the shooting, knows its a rifle, knows the window, saw the shooter and so he does what? He takes zero photographs of the building. Doesn't even try! Doesn't stay in the area to capture what would usually turn into a standoff or capture of a suspect. Does he tell or flag a cop down, like the motorcycle cops near him, cops on the corner...nope.  He just rides on past.
If he knows there is a shooter how does he know if it is a security measure, (secret service) or an assassin? He would not, he might assume it was a assassin. But then that makes his inactions even more telling, as he doesn't even exit the car with the other three when they get to the corner. I do believe he is covering for his short comings.

Jackson doesn't take a single image of the TSBD either.  Not even now at the corner when his wide angle lens excuse would be a non starter. So was HALF a rifle protruding from a window? No! That is a silly mans claim.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your estimate of how many inches of the rifle that you observed?

Mr. JACKSON - I saw the barrel and about half - well, I did not see a telescopic sight, but I did see part of the stock, so I guess maybe 8 or 10 inches of the stock maybe. I did see part of the stock, I did not see the sight.

Mr. SPECTER - Eight or ten inches of the stock, and how much of the barrel would you estimate?

Mr. JACKSON - I guess possibly a foot.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you see anyone's hands on the rifle?

Mr. JACKSON - No, sir.

So here we have Jackson seeing about twelve inches of barrel on a gun that only has a few inches of barrel showing.
With half the rifle out the window he suposedly does not see a hand on the weapon. Compare this to Euins.
I guess he didn't get the memo about the book box being used as a rest. Jackson would have LHO leaning over those and practiacally sticking his head out the window, past the casing to be able to have that much gun shown. Ridiculous is too kind a word for Jackson's claims.

Mr. SPECTER - Has there been any variation in your recollection or impressions about your observations on these occasions?
Mr. JACKSON - Not to my knowledge. The other times were not as thorough as this.

Suborn perjury much Mr. Specter?
Again Bob said what to whom?
DPD Sgt. W.G. Jennings' report: "Bob Jackson... is reported to have seen the rifle and the man that fired the shots as the shots were fired."
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0268a.htm

And did they talk amonst themselves and share details?Representative Ford - Have you ever talked with any others in the car?
Mr. JACKSON - I have never sat down and talked with them about the events, no, sir. I have seen them, of course, several times but I have never discussed it with them.
Representative Ford - You never discussed what you said or what they said?

Mr. JACKSON - No, sir. I guess the one man I have discussed it more with than anybody else was Tom Dillard, the chief photographer for the Dallas News, and we recalled to each other the scene but we really never went into any detail or as to what each one of us said either.

Wow he back tracked on not talking to the others, to saying the one he talked with more than the others is Dillard, in the space of a sentence.
Bob you should stick to snapping pictures, you'd never make it as a witness in murder trial. He'd be locked up by any judge worth his robe.


Now how about famous Amos Euins,

We can read his first day statement and see what he says he saw.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/12/1284-001.gif

I am presently going to school at Franklin D. Roosevelt high School and am

in the 9th grade. I got out of school this morning to see the President of

the United States when he came to Dallas. I was standing on the corner of

Elm and Houston street. From where I was standing I could look across the

street and see a large red brick building. I saw the President turn the

corner in front of me and I waived at him and he waived back. I watched

the car on down the street and about the time the car got back near the

black and white sign I heard a shot. I started looking around and then I

looked up in the red brick building. I saw a man in a window with a gun

and I saw him shoot twice. He then stepped back behind some boxes. I could

tell the gun was a rifle and it sounded like an automatic rifle the way he

was shooting. I just saw a little bit of the barrel, and some of the

trigger housing. This was a white man, he did not have on a hat. I just

saw this man for a few seconds. As far as I know, I had never seen this

man before.

 



WC Testimony

Mr. EUINS. All I got to see was the man with a spot in his head,

because he had his head something like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating his face down, looking down the rifle?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir: and I could see the spot on his head.

Mr. EUINS. I wouldn't know how to describe him, because all I could

see was the spot and his hand.

Interesting how Euins and Jackson destroy each others claims.


Total fabrication. No man, no spot, no hand. Thusly no description despite the clear view of a 'bald spot'

Mr. SPECTER. Of what race was he, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. I couldn't tell, because these boxes were throwing a

reflection, shaded.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you tell whether he was a Negro gentleman or a

white man?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Couldn't even tell that? But you have described that he

had a bald--

Mr. EUINS. Spot in his head. Yes, sir; I could see the bald spot in

his head.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, could you tell what color hair he had?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you tell whether his hair was dark or light?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

More ridiculous claims by Euins.
Of course in his first day statement he said the shooter was a white male. Yet says he meant it was a white spot, the bald spot was white.
Yet the bald spot was on a colored fellow now, or shaded. Not sure colored folks would agree with the colored boy. Usually a white spot is attached to a white persons scalp. And vice versa.
What color was the hand? Shaded even though its sticking out? Please. He blabbed to Underwood and Kent Biffle the man was colored.
Yet Euins claims seeing the rifle, hand and spot firing two shots. No clothing, no person, just a white bald spot and five digits. Boy I'd like to see the composite drawing of that suspect....
STAN HELP US OUT HERE!!!

So Euins change his story regarding the race of the supposed shooter.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to tell anything about the clothes he was

wearing?

Mr. EUINS: No, sir.

Not much help in adding to the disembodied hand and bald spot is he?

Mr. UNDERWOOD.

"It may have been Euins. It was difficult to understand when he said his

name. He was telling the motorcycle officer he had seen a colored man lean

out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle. He was telling this to the

officer and the officer took him over and put him in a squad car. By that

time, motorcycle officers were arriving, homicide officers were arriving

and I went over and asked this boy if he had seen someone with a rifle and

he said "Yes, sir." I said, "Were they white or black?" He said, "It was a

colored man." I said, "Are you sure it was a colored man?" He said, "Yes,

sir" and I asked him his name and the only thing I could understand was

what I thought his name was Eunice."

Biffle heard the same description, colored.

Underwood continues,

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; the last two. Now, the first was just a loud explosion but it sounded like a giant firecracker or something had gone off. By the time the third shot was fired, the car I was in stopped almost through the intersection in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and I leaped out of the car before the car stopped. Bob Jackson from the Herald said he thought he saw a rifle in the window and I looked where he pointed and I saw nothing. Below the window he was pointing at, I saw two colored men leaning out there with their heads turned toward the top of the building, trying, I suppose, to determine where the shots were coming from.

Mr. BALL. What words did you hear Bob Jackson say?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I don't know that I can remember exactly except I did hear him say words to the effect that "I saw a rifle" and I looked at that instant and I saw nothing myself. If he saw a rifle, I did not.


Even though Jackson said the rifle was slowly drawn back in, it doesn't square with what Underwood described, if the withdrawl was slow.

How about Dillard?

Mr. BALL - Did you see anything in the windows?

Mr. DILLARD - No.

Mr. BALL - Did you see a rifle barrel?

Mr. DILLARD - No.


Kind leaves Jackson as a Lone Nut.
Here we have all the others in the car facing the same way, watching the same window and yet they are not seeing what Bob claimed. They even had photographs to disprove Bob. So Bob had to modify his later claims.

Mal Couch had this to say,

Mr. COUCH - Nothing unusual between the shots. Uh - as I say, the first shot, I had no particular impression; but the second shot, I remember turning - several of us turning - and looking ahead of us. It was unusual for a motorcycle to backfire that close together, it seemed like. And after the third shot, Bob Jackson who was as I recall, on my right, yelled something like, "Look up in the window! There's the rifle!" And I remember glancing up to a window on the far right, which at the time impressed me as the sixth or seventh floor. And seeing about a foot of a rifle being - the barrel brought into the window. I saw no one in the window - just a quick 1-second glance at the barrel.

Thus none of the press photographers "saw the rifle" fire.

I would have asked to describe the rifle, was the barrel silver, black, gun blued? We get a counselor not worth snot in Belin and don't know what was seen or if it was really seen. Under cross Couch and the bunch would have been pressed for such details and when those details did or didn't match we would likely know how and where they had colluded their stories.

Mr. BELIN - Do you remember whether or not that window at which you saw the rifle, you say, being withdrawn - first of all, could you tell it was a rifle?

Mr. COUCH - Yes, I'd say you could. Uh - if a person was just standing on the - as much as I saw, if the factors that did happen, did not happen, you might not say that it was a rifle. In other words, if you just saw an object being pulled back into a window, you might not think anything of it. But with the excitement intense right after that third shot and what Bob yelled, my impression was that it was a rifle.

Here we have it in a nut shell, Bob Jackson cried wolf, and Mal was duped to think he saw a "rifle"

--
 
“Is everything a conspiracy? No. Only the important stuff.” Jeff Wells, Rigorous Intuition
 
PM is THE litmus test of intellectual integrity for researching this case.
Those who fall back on the fuxxy picture defense are not of a caliber to understand the ins-and-outs of this case. ~ Terry Martin
 


Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104

 

 

Howard Leslie Brennan.

 

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure his self that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I am confused here, the way this shows. But I believe this is the sixth floor, the way those windows are built there right at the present. I am confused whether this is the same window.

 

Brennan although confused said he Saw a shooter in an open window? Half open, fully open?

 

Brennan testified that "the suspect not only leaned out the window, but he "sat sideways on the window sill" (WC Volume 3 page 144)

 

Tough to do with a barely open window wouldn't you say? This does not match the SN window.

 

Mr. BRENNAN. I thought they were standing with their elbows on the window sill leaning out. (I strongly suspect he is describing the colored group of boys on 5th floor)

Mr. BELIN. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of the man could you see?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I could see at one time he came to the window and he sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President Kennedy getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from his hips up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility from his belt up. (Aren't your hips at belt level???)

 

Mr. BELIN. How much of the gun do you believe that you saw?

Mr. BRENNAN. I calculate 70 to 85 percent of the gun.(How does everyone know how much of the gun they thought they saw unless they were shown or saw the whole gun or MC later and confligrated this into their memories, plus if you can see half or 85% then you should be able to describe the scope and how the shooter was working the action and reaquiring the sight through the scope...this did not happen folks!!)

 

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle explode? Did you see the flash of what was either the second or the third shot?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Could you see that he had discharged the rifle?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. For some reason I did not get an echo at any time. The first shot was positive and clear and the last shot was positive and dear, with no echo on my part.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes. But you saw him aim?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or the flash?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

 

Here Brennan clears up his sighting of a rifle being fired, he says he DID NOT SEE IT FIRE! That is a 180* about face on seeing the "rifle" fire.

 

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, I wonder if you would take on Exhibit 482, if you can kind of mark the way the rifle was at the time you saw it.

Here is a red pencil. If you could put on Exhibit 482 the direction that you saw the rifle pointing, sir.

Mr. BRENNAN. I would say more at this angle. Maybe not as far out as this.

Exhibit 482 below with "rifle" shown as line below arrow, notice the book box 'gun rest' is oddly placed






Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not any part of the rifle was protruding out of the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. On a straight view like that it looked like it was.

But as I have told investigating officers prior, a person would have to be at an angle to tell how much was protruding out of the window. It did look

at that time that as much was protruding out of the window as there was in the window.

 

How would Brennan know that? He would need to see the whole rifle to be able to make this specious claim? And yet no scope observed?

Scope was lacking from those whom claimed to see a rifle, a rifle was later brought out of the TSBD with a scope.

 

Again no one truthfully said they saw the "rifle" or any gun fire from the TSBD.

 

What did Inspector Sawyer say about shots from the building?

Please watch the short video interview with him at the TSBD on 11/22.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrPhED9YhlE

 

No shots were associated with the TSBD, rifle and man is the way Sawyer describes what these witnesses told him.

 

 

Rather telling is the Commissions use of Mrs Cabell

 

Mayor and Mrs. Earle Cabell rode in the motorcade immediately behind the Vice-Presidential follow-up car.28 Mrs. Cabell was seated in the back seat behind the driver and was facing U.S. Representative Ray Roberts on her right as the car made the turn at Elm and Houston. In this position Mrs. Cabell "was actually facing" the seven-story Depository when the first shot rang out.29 She "jerked" her head up immediately and saw a "projection" in the first group of windows on a floor which she described both as the sixth floor and the top floor.30 According to Mrs. Cabell, the object was "rather long looking," but she was unable to determine whether it was a mechanical object or a person's arm.31 She turned away from the window to tell her husband that the noise was a shot, and "just as I got the words out ... the second two shots rang out." 32 Mrs. Cabell did not look at the sixth-floor window when the second and third shots were fired.33

An arm, a broom, a mop, a wooden window strip are all long, do not have a scope and do not fire bullets, just like the object seen in a window (open fully) and none claim to see it fire any projectiles.

 

James N. Crawford and Mary Ann Mitchell, two deputy district clerks for Dallas County, watched the motorcade at the southeast corner of Elm and Houston. After the President's car turned the corner, Crawford heard a loud report which he thought was backfire coming from the direction of the Triple Underpass.34 He heard a second shot seconds later, followed quickly by a third. At the third shot, he looked up and saw a "movement" in the far east corner of the sixth floor of the Depository, the only open window on that floor.Witness gives no confirmation of a rifle being fired from the building. Only "movement" in a window, no withdrawl of a rifle, simply motion.

 

That concludes the Commissions case for proving a rifle was fired from the TSBD via eye witness testimony, films, and photos.

The Warren Commission failed to prove their contentions and claims that a rifle with a scope fired from the Sixth Floor far eastern window.

 

Cheers, Ed!

 

 

 

--
 
“Is everything a conspiracy? No. Only the important stuff.” Jeff Wells, Rigorous Intuition
 
PM is THE litmus test of intellectual integrity for researching this case.
Those who fall back on the fuxxy picture defense are not of a caliber to understand the ins-and-outs of this case. ~ Terry Martin
 



Paul Francisco Paso
Administrator
Posts: 729

Good stuff, Ed! I knew a bit about Brennan but not so much about the others. I once read a rumor that Brennan stole Euins version he had overheard and ran with it. He must have got shit scared pretty quickly when he was asked to do the lineup. The WC had to bring him back to dispel another certain rumor that he had told some fellows from an NBC affiliate that he had initially thought the shots had come from where the railways were.


Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104

Thank you Paul. 
These are the Warren Reports best witnesses to gunfire coming from the TSBD.
Pretty shabby lot. Guess every cop, sheriff and law man within a block was too busy waving at the parade to notice the things Brennan, Euins and Co. "see"...leave it to the amatures.

Too funny about Brennan's double-header with the WC to correct him.
You can't have your star playing for the other team now can you. 

That Star was a dunce as he later recounted,

Since we expected the President to pass by at 12:30, this was normally the time I would have been at lunch. I was the only one in the group who had decided to see the President. After finishing my coffee, I got back to work as quickly as possible and the minutes seemed to fly. I began to feel excitement and I knew that one day it would be something I could tell my grandchildren.

As I finished welding one particular piece, I glanced at my watch and noticed it was just 11:30, time to quit for lunch. I put away my equipment carefully, expecting to get back to it in about an hour. I walked in front of the Texas Book Depository and crossed the street on my way to the cafeteria located at Main and Record Streets. I knew that if I left to eat now I’d beat the noon crowds and still have a chance to see the President. When I reached the cafeteria, I looked through the window to see that there was almost no line at all.

The cashier rang up my total and gave me my change. She said, “I wish I could leave here soon enough to see the President as he goes by. But with the crowd that’s going to be in I’ll miss the whole thing!” I felt sorry for her and said, “Well, you might get trampled in the crowd!” I picked up my tray and looked until I found a window seat where I could view the scene that was beginning to unfold on the sidewalk. The always busy downtown was becoming alive with movement. People were coming out of buildings and rushing to their destinations. A long line had formed in the cafeteria where I had gone through only a couple of minutes earlier.

Another thing I noticed as I looked out the window was that some people had begun standing at the curb in anticipation of the coming President. It was still more than thirty minutes before he was scheduled to pass, but the jostling for position had started. It was a pleasant, well-dressed crowd from the hundreds of offices in the surrounding area. I realized that the same thing was happening all along the parade route and I had better decide what I was going to do in order to be able to see. Although I’m not short, neither could I see over some six-footer, so I tried to figure out where I could get a good view.

I remembered that the Presidential motorcade would be turning off Houston onto Elm, and that there was a wall about four feet high in Dealy [sic] Plaza that would give me an excellent view. If I could get a seat on the wall, I’d have a panoramic view of the whole area. I finished my lunch and walked out of the cafeteria to be greeted by a bright sun that had come out just in time for the parade. I thought, “That’s a good sign!” I looked at my watch which indicated 12:18. By now I could hear as well as sense the excitement in the air. The sidewalks were lined to capacity.


Had the motorcade been on time, 12:10, Howard Brennan would have seen the last press bus go by... what a maroon.


Barto
Moderator
Posts: 1915




Above: Charles Brehm (after first misidentifying him for Brennan, thx Paul) doing a phoner!



Below: Howard Brennan sitting on the eldge (yup the guy from the Village People......)






--
_________________________________________________________________________________
Prayer Man The Movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0B8JhOe3KU
Prayer Man website: http://www.prayer-man.com/
Prayer Man on Twitter: https://twitter.com/PMisLeeOswald
 


Terry Martin
Moderator
Posts: 1143

Ed, I agree with your contention that there were feasibly (love that word) no shots fired from the TSBD.


If I was going to frame a patsy that worked in the building I most certainly would not want a real shooter to be inside gumming up the planting of the evidence and the framing of the mark. That would just be stooopid.


As far as the patsy being out front...? Hell, intimidation and threats do wonderful things in sharpening witnesses' memories. But putting a real shooter in the building? No, far too risky. While people were chasing shadows in the TSBD, the shooters could quite safely get away from their various snipers' nests... that or just flip open their Secret Service credentials.



--
"If God had intended for Man to do anything but copulate, He would have given us brains." - - - Ignatz Verbotham
August 12, 2015 at 8:48 AM



Mick Purdy
Moderator
Posts: 1403

I've always thought so too Terry, at least no shots from the sixth floor anyways. Somebody had to have been setting up the snipers nest and planting the goodies at around 12.30. Surely this was not done while someone took pot shots at JFK from that very same window.

Ed has presented a very persuasive case for there being no shots fired from the TSBD IMO

Deleted: Off topic

While working with an image of the front of the TSBD for a trailer I'm making, it struck me for the 10,000th time how odd it was that the "snipers nest" was on the extreme east end of the building seeing how the kill shots occurred when the limousine was moving away from that location. You know, why pass up a perfect shooting configuration with the motorcade approaching you on Houston, because if you're going to shoot the president from that spot, you do it as he approaches you. Stuff that everyone's discussed countless times.

But the east end of sixth floor is the perfect spot if someone is shooting from the Dal-Tex building AND you have a patsy all set up and ready to blame who's in the TSBD and you want to say he done it.

I'm convinced at least one shot came from the rear. The Dal-Tex building fits the bill. Like they have Oswald doing their version of "Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap" as they have him running down from the sixth to the second floor in a theoretically possible 90 seconds, the rear head shot coming from the Dal-Tex is close enough to the sixth floor window to make it theoretically possible that the shots could have been fired from there. Close enough for government work.

But, just as Oswald didn't run down from the sixth floor to the second, the kill shots weren't fired from the sixth floor east window.

Stan Dane wrote:While working with an image of the front of the TSBD for a trailer I'm making, it struck me for the 10,000th time how odd it was that the "snipers nest" was on the extreme east end of the building seeing how the kill shots occurred when the limousine was moving away from that location.
precisely why you would shoot from a west window if you are going for a rear head wound.

You know, why pass up a perfect shooting configuration with the motorcade approaching you on Houston, because if you're going to shoot the president from that spot, you do it as he approaches you. Stuff that everyone's discussed countless times.

agreed and where could the limo go but turn down Elm, and not at high speed.
Limo is sitting duck coming down Houston from the 'Snipers Lair'

But the east end of sixth floor is the perfect spot if someone is shooting from the Dal-Tex building AND you have a patsy all set up and ready to blame who's in the TSBD and you want to say he done it.

not to shoot coming down Houston, but to shoot in line with what is a planned and planted location... brilliant!

I'm convinced at least one shot came from the rear. The Dal-Tex building fits the bill. Like they have Oswald doing their version of "Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap" as they have him running down from the sixth to the second floor in a theoretically possible 90 seconds, the rear head shot coming from the Dal-Tex is close enough to the sixth floor window to make it theoretically possible that the shots could have been fired from there. Close enough for government work.

That rifle could have been the same as claimed to do all the shooting, a Manlicher Carcano.
Could be the same one found later in the book bins ...

Just as Oswald didn't run down from the sixth floor to the second, the kill shots weren't fired from the sixth floor east window.

Agreed!

Jesse Curry, the retired police chief, says of Oswald: “I think he might have been influenced by somebody. I have never been completely satisfied that there was not somebody behind the brick wall firing that shot.”


The wall is near the Depository Building, where Oswald allegedly fired from the sixth floor. Curry was in the lead car of the Kennedy motorcade. One of his first orders was to check out people reported seen on top of a railroad trestle across the Triple Underpass that the parade was approaching when the shots sounded. Henry Wade, who has been Dallas County district attorney for more than 20 years, is one of those who believe Oswald either was incited to kill Kennedy or had help. ‘ I don’t think Lee Harvey Oswald suddenly woke up one morning and decided all by himself to kill the President,” he said. “It is a gut feeling. I was in the room with him about five minutes and he never said anything. I was going to spend Sunday evening interviewing him but, as it turned out, I never got the chance.” Wade got a murder conviction against Jack Ruby, who shot Oswald two days after the assassination, and the jury ordered the death penalty, but the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals reversed conviction and sentence. Ruby died in 1967, technically an innocent man, although a large portion of the coutry saw him shoot on television.

“I don't think there is any question that Oswald did the shooting,” Wade said,
“But I’ve always felt he had to have encouragement or someone to discuss it with him.”

Cheers, Ed

Richard Randolph Carr's story is fascinating. Been reading about him a fair bit lately.
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/N%20Disk/National%20Enquirer%20FBI%20Records%20From%201-8-78%20Releases/Item%2006.pdf

Mr. BALL. Norman said what?  

Mr. WILLIAMS. 
He said it came directly 
over our heads. "I can 
even hear the shell 
being ejected from 
the gun hitting the 
floor." But I did not 
hear the shell being 
ejected from the gun, 
probably because I 
wasn't paying 
attention.
͟
He had to be told it was from overhead by Norman and in the TSBD 
In the Depository and From the floor above, directly over our 
heads.

 
TSBD- Really? 

Mr. WILLIAMS. 
Well, 
the first shot-I really 
did not pay any 
attention to it, 
because I did not 
know what was 
happening. The 
second shot, it 
sounded like it was 
right in the building, 
the second and third 
shot. And it sounded-
it even shook the 
building, the side we 
were on cement fell 
on my head.

 Kinda vague for being a few feet from 
supposed shots origination. 
A first shot that would be more downward towards his location.

Never says the later two where from above him just that they were "SOUNDED LIKE THEY WERE RIGHT IN THE BUILDING"

Why not say they were from the building then, why the semantics.
Why? Because there was no shots from above them.

Near. Yes. 
Above... Not a chance.

Rifle exploding feet from your ear, but you don't pay it any attention... please, spare me.

The three stooges made better witnesses, but in their bungling style they give away the truth.

Cheers, Ed

Ed. Ledoux
Posts : 675
Join date : 2012-01-04

 

• 
  
• 
  
  
  
  
  

 Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

 by Ed. Ledoux Today at 9:55 am

[size=20][size=16]Its all a nice fairy tale but any reasonable person would ask fairly straight forward questions about their supposedly knowing a killer is mere feet above them, and what they did with this information.

Seems first thing they did was checked the killers accuracy.

Made a bee line to the West windows,
to see if they caught the killer in the knoll area...
but what about the killer above? 
Forget about it.
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=234


Then they decide to go downstairs.
They SEE NO ONE on the stairs. (nice question counselor )

And that's it. Hmmm five minutes later they go downstairs.,

to find a police man? Nah

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317&relPageId=696

he minces words, "he believes the floor above me"
not very convincing. 


Harold Norman Is not supported in
his claims by the other two on 6th. 


[/size]

Ed. Ledoux
Posts : 675
Join date : 2012-01-04

 

[/size]

• 
  
• 
  
  
  
  
  

 Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

 by Ed. Ledoux Today at 10:17 am

Norman hears shots that he tells the others they are from "above" 

Yet here Norman describes exactly what the president is doing, slumping.

And he continues to watch till he says he couldn't see.

Not real worried about the shooter, or that he could possibly come crashing through the unfinished old weak floor, or the Secret Service might return fire in their direction, nah not a worry, keep watching!! and then sprint for the West windows to see where the shot was blowing Kennedy's head off came from... 
nope it was from above, I'm thoroughly convinced now  
  (the infamous double eye roll, please don't try at home) 


Now I understand you might try and fudge the two shots are from here or think there was two shots here and one shot there. Fair enough.
But those are directions  
not origin.

No bullet originated its flight from the TSBD snipers nest or any other window in the building.

Witnesses and origin. (my notes throughout)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ia0cn1jm85dmlrf/tsbdWitness.docx?dl=0

"Above" is comical
Cheers, Ed

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/540034492/Those-who-rode-by-Kennedy-remember.html

Couch remembers someone shouting: "Look at the window — there's the rifle!" By the time the third shot rang out, Couch had spotted about eight inches of the rifle protruding from the sixth-floor window, and being pulled back in. He says he never saw a face, though some witnesses did.
Moments later, Couch and his fellow passengers scrambled out of the car to descend on the madness of Dealey Plaza.
"'God, don't let them do this!' I screamed. 'They can't kill the president!' And I'm running like crazy. In the plaza, it's mass confusion, total mayhem." So much so that the events began to feel overwhelm his instincts as a photographer.
"I didn't film the window," he said. "It was happening too fast. I did raise my camera to take black and white footage of a policeman pulling his pistol and people falling, which everyone has seen for years. But then I stopped filming. Why? Mercy, goodness, gracious, I don't know. When I ran back, I didn't film anything. I guess I was just too dazed to figure out what was going on. So nothing was filmed until I got to Parkland Hospital, where I saw Jackie getting into a hearse. So I filmed the hearse and people crying all over the place."
For him, the Kennedy assassination continues to be "a devastating marker." It was, he contends, the opening of a 1960s Pandora's box, leading to Vietnam and two more assassinations, which claimed the lives of civil rights leader Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and the president's brother Robert F. Kennedy, in 1968.

"That little piece of metal sticking out the window started it all," said Couch, who teaches at Tyndale Theological Seminary in Fort Worth and who believes in the prophecies from the Book of Revelations.
"I count that as the change in America, from that point forward," he says. "But for me, it cuts even deeper. The Bible speaks of the end of days. So I see it as the beginning piece of the train of the last days.
"And I was there when it happened."

Thanks for that reminder Bart,

Couch like Jackson had to downplay their tall tales once films and photos were shown with no metal objects protruding from any window.
Why did it take anyone, cops, witnesses, journalists, news reporter, so long to find where what Couch claims was obvious as to the shooters location.
Just like Baker and Truly were clueless so seems all these so called newsmen whom got zip about a shooting from the TSBD till it was broadcast via police radio for all to hear.
So I don't trust the lot whom had ample opportunity to report, write, photograph, film and interview the TSBD and employees but didn't
Why?
Because they had no reason to.
They witnessed no such objects in windows, no shots or shooter from the building.

This explains the absence of any evidence of TSBD involvement till a radio report

I think when you look at what Euins did in the films and photos that do not show Euins behind the concrete pillar, do show him wandering the car park, his being placed on a three wheeler and driven to the Houston Street intersection, where Euins is then seen showing the police man around the corner of the TSBD and pointing down towards the loading dock or end of Houston St.
Doesn't make sense.
If cops had a witness, they would get location of shooter,
Then have other cops go to that location to see if shooter is still there. That did not happen.

So to believe Couch or Bob Jackson or even a Hugh Aynesworth, or Dan Rather is to accept the unacceptable.
Faked news from those with Brian Williams disease is par for the JFK course.

Cheers, Ed

IMO this is the part where fact meets twilight zone
There is nothing showing Baker's quick entry to the TSBD.
In fact there is evidence Baker dashed past the entrance.
If Baker made a later entry, what would it be?
Was it due to speaking with a "witness", but if he and or Truly spoke to any witnesses and then went in the TSBD to go where...?
It sure as hell wasn't the sixth floor southeast window.
So even with a late entry there is only a bird to blame, and I for one have seen zero birds in all the films and photos.
Pigeon poop on the pigeon idea. It is garbage.


There was as much reason to search the Dal Tex as there was the TSBD.
In fact the characters whom were in the DT were suspicious enough to warrant a search.

And again Oswald was let go as he paid for the soda. No crime of unlawful vending applied.
No shots from the building and Oswald being in the building is a rock solid alibi or it should have been.
Well not in Texas folks. Being where nothing happened seemed to be Oswald's downfall.

Thanks to Barto for the page!
Cheers, Ed

Correct Ed, this point has been put forward before. Baker was never 100% certain the shots came from the TSBD, they could have been from DalTex as much as he could tell.
And this is also why he veered to the right in Darnell.

Meanwhile Truly was yapping w Brennan.........

I tell you a pet theory of mine, a lot of the so called statements were made up after they saw themselves in Darnell....
Storming up those stairs.....my arse.

Right so Baker goes to the intersection with intent to speak to another officer to see what they, JM Smith, WE Barnett and EL Smith and the others at the corner witnessed.
Sounds reasonable.
They will claim the shots came from down Elm Street.
JM Smith is already gone to search bushes and he had his back to the TSBD, did not see or hear anyone shooting from there.
And should not have been confused by echoes as he would know the sound came from behind him, low, and as he says toward to railyard
Not up above him..
EL Smith is directly in front of Daltex. He was standing facing TSBD.  WE Barnett makes no call or move to cover windows of TSBD from his location at the intersection.
EL makes no move towards the TSBD, does not call in that location, nothing.
But Baker might have run to EL Smith or Barnett for that matter to ask or see what happened
Perhaps Baker made a run to Daltex or the other officers station at the Houston Elm intersection only to be steered away by Truly.

Baker then assumes the shots were from railyards takes off to scale mount Depository, where he plants his flag atop it.
I can't imagine everyone seeing police and the shooting would not immediately, and I mean IMMEDIATELY tell a cop standing a few feet away what they had supposedly witnessed.

It does not happen.
What does happen is everyone, including the hysterical lady points to lower end of Elm, Fence, Pergola, bushes, railroad yard, carpark... not a one points up at sixth floor and yells assassin or gun!!!!!
Give me a break. I can suspended belief for only so long before reality overcomes it.
No shots were fired from the TSBD.

I like your pet theory.

My theory of the radio report and subsequent piling on by everyone within earshot of a police car/motor's radio has to compliment yours.

Cheers, Ed

Pulitzer Prize winner Bob Jackson was working for the Dallas Times Herald when he took his famous photograph of Ruby shooting Oswald exactly at the right second.

But an utter failure to capture even ONE of three shots from the window he knew had an assassin in it...


He wasn’t able to develop the film until two hours after the shooting, but Jackson said he knew he had a good shot.
However, he was not so lucky when he missed a photograph opportunity two days before, riding seven cars behind Kennedy in the motorcade. As the open convertible Jackson was riding in turned on to Houston street, he heard three shots and looked directly ahead of him at the Texas School Book Depository. In the sixth floor window he said he saw a rifle.

Hughes film, Life, and ITEK all ultimately characterize Bob as a liar.
Nothing was in the window.


Jackson had just emptied his film on his long-lense camera five minutes before, to throw to a reporter. Although the lack of film in the camera in his lap kept him from possibly capturing historical evidence, Jackson says he doesn’t think he could have reacted quickly enough to get the photo even if he had film.

Nope too busy bragging to Malcolm Couch that you had just seen a rifle. Then Malcolm catches Brian Williams disease like Bob had... Bob said Mal is a liar as the rifle was withdrawn before he could tell Malcolm.,,
Sheesh what a cluster of O'Reilly type liars.


Jackson emphasized that he heard three shots that afternoon because the car he was in was out of the “echo chamber” that some say was created by the tall buildings surrounding Dealey Plaza.

That is some word salad or word salsa, as salsa is more liked.
What ever makes Bob more liked...

Forget reporting and truth, we know they turned on JFK the second a bullet whizzed by. Journalistic Integrity died with Kennedy.

Quite so Ed. There were many photographic opportunities from that weekend which were "missed" by so called pro newsmen.

You've made a sound case for no shots from the TSBD. It's hard to argue the point after reading this thread. Jackson is just another liar, attention seeking bottom feeder in my book. Harsh but fair!

On the flip side I've always suspected tha Ike Altgens should have snapped a shot of JFK's brains being splattered across the Limo. His 180 degree rotation from Altgen 6 to Altgen 7 of a subject travelling less than 12 mph should have allowed him to capture the critical moment. He was a mere 6 feet or so from Kennedy as he passed directly in front of him. The idea that he froze is imo ludicrous. Nope he chose that spot for good reason -  a clear unobstructed view of Kennedy virtually a top of the vehicle as it passed. And what he freezes, doesn't take the shot he set out to snap.

Reiland in the TT, same same. Filter malarkey. 

Oh it's tiring. Love this thread Ed.

Thanks Mick!

I feel its the antithesis to Prayer Man.

Answers that inevitably asked

Proves itself

Can not seriously be argued against.

Solid logical without flaw.

No Shots Fired From TSBD is a landmark, a sign post.
Go from here he said.
Dont look back.

Cheers,
Ed

Ties in nicely with PM, Ed. Truly is a Carney barker whose job is to make sure nobody misses the tent with the "exhibits".

Great point about Altgens 7 btw.

steely dan wrote:Ties in nicely with PM, Ed. Truly is a Carney barker whose job is to make sure nobody misses the tent with the "exhibits".

Mutually supportive threads like PM and NSF are what make ROKC the place to be.

Thanks Steely

Here is the claim by Frontline.
Master magicians they are they say second shooter doesn't exist in Bronson footage.

Wait where is a first shooter in Bronson. They imply a first shooter.
Bronson film doesn't support any movement.
They use this to discount conspiracy. Its just grain noise. Okay.

@1:50
https://wn.com/jfk_assassination_the_dillard_photos_of_the_texas_school_book_depository_building

Claim is there is movement in the Frontline study of Hughes.

Right only Bronson gets the grain noise removed before analysis...
so Hughes could not have grain noise?


"Most haunting of these is Robert Hughes' home movie of President Kennedy's limousine approaching the Texas School Book Depository a few seconds before the shooting. The open sixth-floor window with the stacked boxes of the sniper's perch is plainly visible.
Those with a slow-motion DVR and a large television can see a human silhouette - presumably Lee Harvey Oswald - move stealthily above the window frame waiting for the focus of the crowd and police to move west toward the triple overpass.
"When the car is going down [Houston] street, that window is in the frame of the shot," says filmmaker Tom Jennings, executive producer of The Lost JFK Tapes: The Assassination. "I saw what looks to me like someone moving up there, and I believe it is Lee Harvey Oswald."
In 1964, the FBI examined the Hughes film and was unable to find a clear image in the window. But later technological improvements refined the frames.
"A 1993 computer enhancement of the original film for a PBS/Frontline program, Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?, found a moving object in the window as President Kennedy's car passed underneath," says Gary Mack, curator of the Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza. "The movement suggests an object turning from its left to its right or right to left as one looks at the film. The Sixth Floor Museum acquired the original Hughes film in 2002 and video blowups of the window seem to confirm the PBS/Frontline findings."


Seven seconds before first shot is something that they claim is movement.

Then............. crickets

NADA.

Does Frontline have something with gaseous explosions, sparks, flame, an explosion, booming thunder, or an high powered rifle shot from the window?
A man frantically working a rifle which is ejecting three shells in eight seconds? 
No?
How about a rifle, with a scope, and a hand to hold it up, and out, and a head, balding, okay just the barrel, all four inches.
Frontline proffer up any of the above in any of the TSBD windows.
NO?
Didn't think so.

Cheers, Ed

Hughes film makes a mockery of the Sorrels tale.

Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; and I did not know at that time that the shots came from the building.
When I was--when Mr. Brennan was pointed out to me, I went up and told him who I was and asked him if he saw anything. And he told me what he had seen. And, at that time, that is the first time that I knew definitely that any shots had come from the building.

Total chaff my friends.
Cheers
Ed

Thanks Bart,

So we are not looking for Euins alone in films and photos pre-shooting as he was not alone.

Mr. SORRELS - Not that I recall.
The little colored boy mentioned he was there with another colored boy that ran off when this thing happened--at the first shot this boy ran off. He said he stayed there, but the other boy ran off. I didn't make any effort to get touch with him, because he apparently saw nothing.

So we should see Euins and friend on Houston Street before shooting or directly after.

What was his name?

Cheers, Ed

Lets face it the charlatans whom plague the PM is Oswald factoid have no proof to offer of Oswald being involved in any of the crimes committed November 22.

We have films and documents to substantiate our claims.
Proof is in front, in front of their eyes and the Depository itself.
What evidence do the deniers have to support their governments anti-conspiracy theory.
Circumstantial evidence that crumbles under scrutiny is not what we have in Prayer Man, its what they claim for Oswalds guilt.

The lone nuts have a hole in their psyche
Its a defect in their intellect.

They are forever flat earthers with or without a laser level.

Thanks to ‎S.r. Dusty Rohde

"Anyway they have the window set up to look exactly like it did on that day. And it’s really accurate, you know. ’Cause Oswald’s not in it."

Bill Hicks