Roll Call Remedy

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106







Each name was called off for warehouse employees and Lee Oswald was absent.



After this Report by R. W. Westphal, Ganaway claimed that this was the reason for the broadcast description ...really No Name and Address but a vague description was broadcast even though, as Ganaway admits, this was due to Lee not being at this roll call.
Really!?!

Well if you had a name why not broadcast it with a description.
Why?
Because DPD had no such roll call, no such idea whom was missing, or what the 'missing' persons name was.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=1156950


Wesley Frazier described the roll call in detail and how he heard Lee's name but figured Lee had already left.
Wesley claims a roll call happened.
Was Wes at that roll call?
We know Wesley's name was missing from this roll call sheet with 55 names, although his sister made the cut for a while till being crossed off.
Did he give his sisters name? Hmm He doesn't look like a Linnie Mae.
Wesley said he was there and he did hear Lee's name called out. Did he hear Lee's name called out first and wander around trying to find his friend?
What should we believe about Wes and his roll call recollections?
Why is his name not on that roll call sheet if he was there?



It is claimed that 33 warehouse workers were associated with the Elm Street location that day.
CE 1381 includes the names and a quick statement of 73 persons whom worked in the TSBD on 11/22
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf



Some problems with a roll call from the outset., even the list the DPD provides only 55 names.
Roy "Ray" Lewis and Terrence "Lawrence" Ford are added twice. So only 53 names on the list.
And Terry Ford did not work there but was a news stringer whom got inside with Allman.


Or that is Terry's story and Pierce is helping him out here, because Pierce Allman's name is not on the list  and Terrance Fords is listed differently twice. So either his name was written down wrong or misheard one of the times he was allowed to leave.
And he wasn't with Allman or Allman's name would be there with his pals.
excuse was he had to run out and back in for some reason... and Allman slipped out undetected? Or to get out undocumented all you needed was press credentials...?

So that is 52 Names

We know this is a 11/22 roll call list because it has WPAA's Terrence Ford's name.
He was trapped with reporters
Pierce Allman,  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tsR8PGx2ZE&feature=youtu.be  
MUST WATCH AND LISTEN TO VIDEO!! Besides the ducking and slumping!

Here Allman gives his movements

But on the second shot, I glanced up, my gaze stopped one floor below on the depository building, I saw the three guys looking out of the window, looking up. And I went back to the scene on the street and it was pretty obvious Kennedy had been hit. And, as the car drove off, a uniformed policeman came over and said, 'Everybody down.' On about the second shot, we all got down and of course popped back up as the car sped off. As the car sped off, that's when the Secret Service man from the back had vaulted over and pushed Jackie back in the seat, she was trying to come up, and that's when the body assumed that grotesque position we saw on the way to Parkland. Then I ran across the street, spoke to the Newmans and said, 'Stop!' And why we were running that direction, I couldn't tell you. It was just sort of a flow. I stopped and said, 'Are you ok?' He said, 'Yeah, but they got the president. They blew the side of his head in.' I remember thinking, 'I've got to get to a telephone.' But we continued up the little hill there -- I won't say 'knoll' -- the little hill...

Bill: That's all right.

Pierce Allman: And Bob Jackson from the Times-Herald was running behind me. And why we went up there, I don't know, except there was just sort of a movement up there. And then I turned around, ran back down the hill, ran up the sidewalk, went into the depository building, asked the guy where the phone was,went inside, got on the phone, called the station, and had trouble getting through. By the time I got through, said here's what happened, I was more concerned about the implications of what to say. I was fairly sure that...first of all, he was hit. You can't go on air and say the president's been killed. You don't know that. So you can't do that. And I realized you just can't do this. You can't go on the air and say the leader of the free world has just been cut down, you know, in Dallas, during the noonday parade. So I [don't] remember exactly. I heard the tape later, saying that he was hit. Witnesses reported he was hit, slumped forward, you know, and more later. Put the phone down, ran upstairs, then realized, whoop, need the phone, went back down, actually hung up one time, and then realized what I had done, and called back and said, 'Just leave the line open, strap on a tape.' A little later, they did bring, they brought Oswald...they brought the rifle down. A distinct impression: and that was, while I was on the phone, no one ever challenged me. No one ever said, 'Who are you? Who are you calling?' And no one took charge. See, at the time, what you really had was a local homicide. It wasn't against federal law to kill a president. But no one took charge. Lot of uniforms milling around, a lot of plainclothesmen milling around. No one ever said, 'Stop! Hit the wall!,' you know.... Nobody. So it was just this constant milling around. Finally, sometime later, you got back to the station before I did (nodding towards the Newmans) because it was sometime later when a gray-haired guy in a gray suit said [he wanted] to know who I was and what I was doing. And I identified myself and he suggested I wrap it up. I identified him later as Army intelligence. They said that was inaccurate, he might have been CIA or Secret Service, more likely. And when I tried to leave the building I couldn't because it was cordoned off. So I had to stay inside for a while. And when I went outside, [I saw] clusters of people around transistor radios, and I realized what was happening.... I was really concerned, he was not pronounced dead until after.... In fact I didn't know he had been pronounced dead until I got back to the station, walked into the door,


Also trapped inside was Kent Biffle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqXOWMU4_3E

Biffle is not on the list..... So again how is Terry Ford listed? Why and why twice is he let out?
Because the cops had no suspect from the TSBD.

We know some employees like Givens were not allowed back in to be counted. Truly knew this from his answers to WC counsel about Givens.



How would such an roll call help locate an employee whom was just located by Truly, ie Oswald. So how can he be missing, eg Givens.

How about Danny Arce, he did not 'return' to the TSBD, he was taken in the car with others to city hall.
Was he included in the list?
Didn't both Givens and Arce miss the 'Roll Call'?
When did Truly know Danny was outside and then taken in by DPD?
Can't be as quick as he called for Lee's address!!



What does a roll call do for the DPD? Was it the DPD asking for this or was this a impromptu idea of Truly's?



Was a general TSBD building employee list made and also a warehouse list?



How was the other list generated? Were APB's sent out for missing publishers? Secretaries and temps arrested?  
Was Jack Cason hauled in? Not likely.
Only warehouse workers are implicated somehow, yet like a union shop they decided the new guys, the temps take the axe for the rest with seniority? Shit really does flow down hill in this situation.



A list of all those in the building I can see as useful to the authorities. It is evidentiary.
A list of all those whom work in or have access whould be equal in evidentiary value.
Having a roll call usually folks know ahead of time that you are wanting to be counted.
Documenting a gathering, not so useful.
Gathering then documenting, very useful!



So...Was the roll call real?



Lets see what Roy Truly has to say.



Mr. Ball. Now, what did you tell Chief Lumpkin when you came down from the roof of the building?



Mr. Truly. When I noticed this boy was missing, I told Chief Lumpkin that "We have a man here that's missing." I said, "It my not mean anything, but he isn't here." I first called down to the other warehouse and had Mr. Akin pull the application of the boy so I could get--quickly get his address in Irving and his general description, so I could be more accurate than I would be.



Mr. Ball. Was he the only man missing?



Mr. Truly. The only one I noticed at that time. Now, I think there was one or two more, possibly Charles Givens, but I had seen him out in front walking up the street just before the firing of the gun.



Mr. Ball. Did you make a check of your employees afterwards?



Mr. Truly. No, no; not complete. No, I just saw the group of the employees over there on the floor and I noticed this boy wasn't with them.



Oh..........

Not exactly a roll call, just a group waiting around to see if work was to continue. Nothing about a check list or reading off names. He had just seen Lee less than 5 minutes ago in the lunch room. Did he or anyone check the luchroom? And why was Givens given a pass as Roy said he saw him on the street before the gun shots. But he saw Lee in a Lunchroom moments after the shots.

Mr. GIVENS. So I stood there for a while, and I went over to try to get to the building after they found out the shots came from there, and when I went over to try to get back in the officer at the door wouldn't let me in.

Mr. Belin. Did you tell him you worked there?

Mr. Givens. Yes; but he still wouldn't let me in. He told me he wouldn't let no one in.


I think they did let people back in but as the films show it was spotty, and seems Billy Lovelady was out front for quite sometime, hence his addition to the roll call in pen at the bottom?

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=171624



Lets continue with Roy's recollections.



Mr. Truly. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There was a regular madhouse.



Mr. Belin. Had they sealed off the building yet, do you know?



Mr. Truly. I am sure they had.



Mr. Belin. Then what?



Mr. Truly. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.





Is Truly confusing several officers taking down names and addresses by the front steps/entrance? Or actually the Front West corner of the shipping floor?

Mr. Ball. Did you make a check of your employees afterwards?

Mr. Truly. No, no; not complete. No, I just saw the group of the employees over there on the floor and I noticed this boy wasn't with them.



Whom else was missed?

Mr. TRULY. No. When I came down from the second floor---from the seventh floor with the officer, I thought I saw Jack Dougherty on the fifth floor, which he would have had plenty of time to move the elevator down and up and get some stock and come back.

Mr. TRULY. Yes. When coming down I am sure I saw Jack Dougherty getting some books off the fifth floor. Now, this is so dim in my mind that I could be making a mistake.

So the dim recollection that he had seen Jack far outweighs in his mind that Lee was missing and suspicious.
Jack winds up as a late addition to the list, his name in pen added with Jarman, Lovelady and Truly at the bottom of the roll call list sheet.
Jack was on a much higher floor than Lee.
Jack was not eating his lunch at lunch time. Lee was in a lunch room.
Jack was vaguely remembered by Roy, yet Lee was vividly recalled being stopped by an officer at gun point in the lunchroom.
Jack never was at the roll call as Jack was trying to find Roy.
Jack would be on six when the rifle is found and Roy never sees a rifle till it is taken out the front door.
Jack thinks Roy was on fourth floor. But does not find him.
So Jack was not around, dim memory of Roy seeing him, seeing him on an upper floor....yet Lee Oswald is stuck in Truly's head... Oy Vey!!

Mr. Truly. Then we continued on down, and we saw officers on the fourth floor. I don't recall that we stopped any more until we reached the first floor. But I do recall there was an officer on the fourth floor, by the time we got down that far.

Mr. Belin. All right. And then you got down eventually to the first floor?

Mr. Truly. That is right.

Mr. Belin. About how long after these shots do you think it took you to go all the way up and look around the roof and come all the way down again?

Mr. Truly. Oh, we might have been gone between 5 and 10 minutes. It is hard to say.

Mr. Belin. What did you do when you got back to the first floor, or what did you see?

Mr. Truly. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There was a regular madhouse.

Mr. Belin. Had they sealed off the building yet, do you know?

Mr. Truly. I am sure they had.

Mr. Belin. Then what?

Mr. Truly. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.


Mr. TRULY. No. When I came down from the second floor---from the seventh floor with the officer, I thought I saw Jack Dougherty on the fifth floor, which he would have had plenty of time to move the elevator down and up and get some stock and come back.

Truly will now see the officers taking names in different areas of the building. not just in the West corner. Would take some real compilation of lists to get one name out of 33, or 73.
So with some hesitation Truly asks Otis and then calls for a address and description on the missing boy Lee Oswald. No checking these lists, just a hunch!

Mr. Truly. There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys.

So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.

First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.

Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?

Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no.

So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, "Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that.

So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse, and got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and address at Irving.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ask for the name and addresses of any other employees who might have been missing?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you ask for any other employees?

Mr. TRULY. That is the only one that I could be certain right then was missing.

HOW WAS ROY TRULY SO CERTAIN AND CERTAIN SO QUICKLY THAT LEE WAS NOT IN THE BUILDING UNLESS HE SAW HIM LEAVE OR KNEW FROM ANOTHER THAT LEE LEFT, AND WAS NOT SOMEWHERE IN A SEVEN STORY BUILDING?
AMAZING, BEFORE THE RIFLE OR ANY EVIDENCE IS FOUND ROY KNOWS WHOM TO FINGER!!


March 14, 2015 at 11:55 AM

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106



OKAY to recap he sees cops taking names, does not get a list of those names or see if the Missing Boy was on the list, he just decides with Otis to call Aiken and then turn in LHO to DPD. How convenient for Roy. He calls gets the info on LHO but not on any other missing employee.

No call about Givens. No need to get Givens address and none was listed on the "roll call" sheet or "contact sheet"

First chance Truly gets he starts to set up Lee!

And I thought the DPD was quick getting their man,,, 88 minutes was it? Here Truly knew in the first fifteen minutes. Whoa!

Gerald Hill stated Captain Fritz said to him, "Well, he was employed down at the Book Depository and he had not been present for a roll call of the employees." and Hill saved the trouble of a Irving trip as LHO was in custody already. Stand back DPD, Roy Truly is here!



"At the Texas School Book Depository, police officers are conducting a roll call outside of Bill Shelley's Office.." is word and script from Bugliosi



Bug needs a Roll Call Remedy!!





I did a roll call for 11/22 and came up with 80 employees associated with the TSBD that day.





MY ROLL CALL





1 Adams, Victoria





2 Arce, Danny Garcia





3 Arnold, Carolyn





4 Barnum, Virginia H





5 Berry, Jane





6 Burns, Doris





7 Calvery, Gloria





8 Campbell, Ochus.Virgil





9 Case, Edna





10 Cason, Jack Charles





11 Caster, Warren





12 Clay, Billie P.





13 Davis, Avery





14 Dean, Ruth J.E.





15 Dickerson, mary sue.





16 Dorman, Elsie





17 Dougherty, Jack Edwin.





18 Dragoo, Betty Jean





19 Elerson, Sandra Sue (Nee Kramer?)





20 Foster, Betty Alice





21 Frazier, Buell Wesley





22 Garner, Dorothy





23 Givens, Charles Douglas





24 Hawkins, Peggy Joyce Bigler (John)





25 Hendrix, Georgia Ruth





26 Hicks, Karen (Karan)





27 Hine, Geneva L.





28 Hollis, Mary Madeline





29 Holt, Gloria Jeanne





30 Hopson, Yola D (Nee Dixon)





31 Hughes, Carol





32 Jacob, Stella Mae





33 Jarman, James Earl





34 Johnson, Judy Marie





35 Jones, Carl Edward





36 Jones, Spaulding Earnest





37 Junker, Herbert Lester





38 Kounas, Dolores P.





39 Lawrence, Patricia Ann





40 Lewis, Ray Edward





41 Lovelady, Billy





42 McCully, Judy





43 Molina, Joe Rodrequez





44 Nelson, Ruth





45 Nelson, Sharon (Nee Simmons)





46 Norman, Harold Dean





47 Oswald, Lee Harvey





48 Parker, William V.





49 Piper, Eddie





50 Rackley, Virgie





51 Reed, Carol (Delbert E Reed) South_western Publishing Co





52 Reed, Martha





53 Reese, Jim





54 Reid, Jeraldean, Bray. Mrs. Robert Anthony.





55 Richey, Bonnie





56 Sanders, Pauline





57 Shelley, Bill





58 Stansberry, Joyce Maurine





59 Stanton, Sara





60 Styles, Sandra





61 Thornton, Betty





62 Truly, Roy S.





see 51 Unknown girl Southwestern Publishing Co and Mrs. Hine said she was on the telephone.





63 Viles, L.R.





64 Watley, Vida Lee





65 West, Troy Eugene





66 Westbrook, Karen





67 Whitaker, Lupe "Lucy"





68 Williams, Bonnie Ray





69 Williams, Mary Lea





70 Williams, Otis Neville





71 Wilson, Steven F





HOUSTON STREET WAREHOUSE





72 AIKEN, HADDON SPURGEON





73 Wester, Franklin Emmett





74 Shields, Edward*





75 Smith, Gordon Wayne.





NOT AT WORK 11/22





76 Davis, Vickie





77 Kaiser, Franklin





78 Lovelady, Dottie





79 Palmer, Helen





80 Bergin, Joe



*Was listed among the 73 statements in CE 1381. This would reduce the count to 72 Elm Street building employees.



Is this THE LIST or is there more Employees to add?
March 14, 2015 at 11:55 AM

Mick Purdy
Moderator
Posts: 1403

http://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-101/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-2


The Role call as remembered by Wes

@ 20.33
March 14, 2015 at 5:51 PM

Mick Purdy
Moderator
Posts: 1403

   Mick Purdy at March 14, 2015 at 5:51 PM

   http://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-101/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-2


   The Role call as remembered by Wes

   @ 20.33

Wes also remembers in this video, ( approx @ 13.58 - 15.20 )how Lee walked from the dock area, along Houston out onto Elm and headed toward a cafe' or some such on his departure.

Wes Remembers a lot.

If a role call was held wouldn't it have been nice of Wes to let Mr Truly and Mr Shelley know that, no Lee had wandered up the Street to have lunch again, the cheese sanwich and apple just didn't cut it first time round


March 14, 2015 at 5:57 PM

Terry Martin
Moderator
Posts: 1143

   Mick Purdy at March 14, 2015 at 5:57 PM

       Mick Purdy at March 14, 2015 at 5:51 PM

       http://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-101/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-2


       The Role call as remembered by Wes

       @ 20.33

   Wes also remembers in this video, ( approx @ 13.58 - 15.20 )how Lee walked from the dock area, along Houston out onto Elm and headed toward a cafe' or some such on his departure.

   Wes Remembers a lot.

   If a role call was held wouldn't it have been nice of Wes to let Mr Truly and Mr Shelley know that, no Lee had wandered up the Street to have lunch again, the cheese sanwich and apple just didn't cut it first time round


BWF seems to be very well versed in selective memory.


Either that or an overblown survival instinct.
March 14, 2015 at 6:34 PM

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

Ed,


Linnie Mae got on Revill's because of a mix-up through the Austin Motel manager phoning the FBI about Willie telling them that his wife's brother worked with Lee and had given him a lift. Somehow that ended up as a report that his WIFE worked there. So she was added to the list and crossed when the mistake was sorted out.


The list itself was made from the cops taking names and contact details before letting people go.


It has long been my contention that Lee is at the top of the list because he was the first to allowed to leave.


As for Frazier... he told Manchester that he left straight away because he figured there'd be no more work. Sound familiar? It's right there buried in the notes at the back of the book... but don't have time right to chase up exact quote or page number... perhaps Frazier left the same way he came in?


The only useful information on the job application was an address, height and weigh. Not even a date of birth, and certainly not hair color. The job application is interesting for another reason.  It asks if you "room & board",  "live with parents", organizations you belong to and what your parents do, along with the usual work and health history. The reason for those questions is to try and establish how stable you are. One of the main issues with places like that is finding reliable workers - those who will turn up every day and do the work. As opposed to itinerates who are more likely to be lodging. The reason i bring this up is that people like DVP harp on about the lies he told - even on job application forms.


There is nothing "sinister" about this. For most people, it's survival - being able to get the job. In Oswald's case, it was just to keep the paperwork in line with what is expected. He had the job regardless, but  it had to look like an application for someone you would employ.


But back to the main theme... yes -- no roll call - just cops taking details. Lee got out before they had decided to keep everyone there as a group and take the details as a group. But of course --- they still did get Lee's name and address off him before letting him loose. That is clear from what was reported in various papers, as well as by Harry Holmes ("I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about.") I believe when he says "then I went outside..." he is talking about after they took his name etc...


Who knows whether it was Truly or Shelley who "okey'd" Oswald... Bottom line is Truly is in this up to his eyeballs, He set the pack after the rabbit. Imo it was Truly or sidekick Shelley who told Oswald getting involved even as a witness would blow the operation they were involved in keeping tabs on Molina and that he had to get to the Texas Theater to meet whomever so they could work out a plan. Oswald was being played. That was the plan. Send him off on a pretext, and then make out he had a done a runner. There also was obviously a plan in place to lead the cops to the theater, though I'm still thinking about how that may have worked.
March 14, 2015 at 6:40 PM

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

   Mick Purdy at March 14, 2015 at 5:57 PM

       Mick Purdy at March 14, 2015 at 5:51 PM

       http://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-101/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-2


       The Role call as remembered by Wes

       @ 20.33

   Wes also remembers in this video, ( approx @ 13.58 - 15.20 )how Lee walked from the dock area, along Houston out onto Elm and headed toward a cafe' or some such on his departure.

   Wes Remembers a lot.

   If a role call was held wouldn't it have been nice of Wes to let Mr Truly and Mr Shelley know that, no Lee had wandered up the Street to have lunch again, the cheese sanwich and apple just didn't cut it first time round


I don't know about the cafe, but I believe he is simply replacing himself with Oswald.


Oswald is on the list of employees whose names were taken. Frazier's is not.
March 14, 2015 at 6:43 PM

steely dan
Moderator
Posts: 1013

Truly is aware of what is about to happen. Shelley, probably. Frazier, no idea, but well and Truly dropped in the shit. Wouldn't be the first time i was wrong!
March 14, 2015 at 8:29 PM

Colin Crow
Member
Posts: 262

Why the Elsbeth address for Oswald? It was on the library card in the wallet according to the cops (with the wrong number). Did Oswald supply that? Was it added after the arrest? Why wasn't the Irving address listed as the TSBD had that recorded for him and Fritz made aware of it by Truly about 1.30pm.
March 14, 2015 at 11:59 PM

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

   Colin Crow at March 14, 2015 at 11:59 PM

   Why the Elsbeth address for Oswald? It was on the library card in the wallet according to the cops (with the wrong number). Did Oswald supply that? Was it added after the arrest? Why wasn't the Irving address listed as the TSBD had that recorded for him and Fritz made aware of it by Truly about 1.30pm.

If that wrong address was on the library card, it fits perfectly with my theory. If he was stopped on the way out and asked to a wait a second wihile some got his details, he may well have been asked to show ID or just decided to flash it himself when asked for details.


The Irving address wasn't used because the list was completed from the details taken by the cops - not company records. The only additions were LATE additions well after the search of the TSBD had be completed (e.g. the addition of Linnie Mae Randle based on the misunderstanding outlined in an earlier). In any case, it's unlikely Fritz wrote the Irving address down or shared it with anyone early on, save those he sent there.


By any chance was his name written on the library card as "Oswald, Harvey Lee", "Harvey, Lee Oswald" or any other combination?
March 15, 2015 at 12:33 AM

Mick Purdy
Moderator
Posts: 1403

   Greg at March 14, 2015 at 6:43 PM

       Mick Purdy at March 14, 2015 at 5:57 PM

           Mick Purdy at March 14, 2015 at 5:51 PM

           http://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-101/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-2


           The Role call as remembered by Wes

           @ 20.33

       Wes also remembers in this video, ( approx @ 13.58 - 15.20 )how Lee walked from the dock area, along Houston out onto Elm and headed toward a cafe' or some such on his departure.

       Wes Remembers a lot.

       If a role call was held wouldn't it have been nice of Wes to let Mr Truly and Mr Shelley know that, no Lee had wandered up the Street to have lunch again, the cheese sanwich and apple just didn't cut it first time round


   I don't know about the cafe, but I believe he is simply replacing himself with Oswald.


   Oswald is on the list of employees whose names were taken. Frazier's is not.

Greg,

sorry if I confused the issue here, simply was trying to point out how full of it Wes is.........

I don't for a moment think he saw Oswald doing what he says he did after the shots were fired
March 15, 2015 at 2:08 AM

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

   Mick Purdy at March 15, 2015 at 2:08 AM

       Greg at March 14, 2015 at 6:43 PM

           Mick Purdy at March 14, 2015 at 5:57 PM

               Mick Purdy at March 14, 2015 at 5:51 PM

               http://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-101/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-2


               The Role call as remembered by Wes

               @ 20.33

           Wes also remembers in this video, ( approx @ 13.58 - 15.20 )how Lee walked from the dock area, along Houston out onto Elm and headed toward a cafe' or some such on his departure.

           Wes Remembers a lot.

           If a role call was held wouldn't it have been nice of Wes to let Mr Truly and Mr Shelley know that, no Lee had wandered up the Street to have lunch again, the cheese sanwich and apple just didn't cut it first time round


       I don't know about the cafe, but I believe he is simply replacing himself with Oswald.


       Oswald is on the list of employees whose names were taken. Frazier's is not.

   Greg,

   sorry if I confused the issue here, simply was trying to point out how full of it Wes is.........

   I don't for a moment think he saw Oswald doing what he says he did after the shots were fired

Understood, but I think he did a lot of switching of information.


He took a package, not Oswald.


Oswald took his lunch cradled between his legs in front seat. Cheese sanger and piece of fruit. He knows this from experience with Oswald - but that is the lunch he himself claimed to bring that day


He left through the dock entrance, not Oswald as he would much later claim. We can guess it was him who did it because of his name being missing on that list.


I think there are other examples that I'm not recalling right now.



March 15, 2015 at 3:34 AM

Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921

   Greg at March 15, 2015 at 12:33 AM

       Colin Crow at March 14, 2015 at 11:59 PM

       Why the Elsbeth address for Oswald? It was on the library card in the wallet according to the cops (with the wrong number). Did Oswald supply that? Was it added after the arrest? Why wasn't the Irving address listed as the TSBD had that recorded for him and Fritz made aware of it by Truly about 1.30pm.

   If that wrong address was on the library card, it fits perfectly with my theory. If he was stopped on the way out and asked to a wait a second wihile some got his details, he may well have been asked to show ID or just decided to flash it himself when asked for details.


   The Irving address wasn't used because the list was completed from the details taken by the cops - not company records. The only additions were LATE additions well after the search of the TSBD had be completed (e.g. the addition of Linnie Mae Randle based on the misunderstanding outlined in an earlier). In any case, it's unlikely Fritz wrote the Irving address down or shared it with anyone early on, save those he sent there.


   By any chance was his name written on the library card as "Oswald, Harvey Lee", "Harvey, Lee Oswald" or any other combination?

The library card was written as Oswald, Mr. Lee Harvey


Is it my early morning eyes but does the #2 on 602 look like it's been fucked with?



March 15, 2015 at 3:39 AM

Stan Dane
Moderator
Posts: 1239

Lee:



It's hard to say if there's a smudge that just happens to be on the 602 or if it's something else. The 2 does seem to line up consistent with the rest of the characters on that line, so I don't know. It's not like the raised/tilted 2 we saw on, IIRC, Tippit's death cert.







March 15, 2015 at 3:59 AM

Colin Crow
Member
Posts: 262

Lee,

it appears somewhat smudged but not as if its been typed over. Easily mstaken for a 5 at a glance. The appearance of this address is bizzarre IMO

Terry Martin
Moderator
Posts: 1143



"Understood, but I think he did a lot of switching of information.

"He took a package, not Oswald.

"Oswald took his lunch cradled between his legs in front seat. Cheese sanger and piece of fruit. He knows this from experience with Oswald - but that is the lunch he himself claimed to bring that day

"He left through the dock entrance, not Oswald as he would much later claim. We can guess it was him who did it because of his name being missing on that list."






So, after Officer Barber rushed into the TSBD, Oswald hung around a while, helped officers and reporters find telephones and such while BWF rushed downstairs IIRC to "finish his lunch" (which sounds as lame as feeling a sudden need to go get a Coke) and perhaps turn off the power for a short time, before scooting out the backdoor before the cops could lock the place down.


Seems Ozzie the rabbit was not the fellow acting suspicious but the weasel, BWF. If, as Greg suggests, we simply switched all the actions reported as Oswald's but make them Frazier's we might get further.


Still would like to see if we can figure out when the story of the curtain rods and such was created. Was it in place before the Friday morning drive or created on the fly when it seemed Oswald was going to be the one left holding the bag... irony intended.


In other words, did they plan to pin the crime specifically on Oswald from the start or did the opportunity simply present itself? IMO if Frazier knew Oswald was going to take the fall and saw Lee appear on the front steps right beside him, I should think he would have shat his pants and panicked. Perhaps they hoped someone a bit further removed from Frazier would get pinned with it. If I am wrong about this then BWF is a colder-blooded MF that I gave him credit.


March 15, 2015 at 5:54 AM

Mick Purdy
Moderator
Posts: 1403

   Greg at March 15, 2015 at 3:34 AM

       Mick Purdy at March 15, 2015 at 2:08 AM

           Greg at March 14, 2015 at 6:43 PM

               Mick Purdy at March 14, 2015 at 5:57 PM

                   Mick Purdy at March 14, 2015 at 5:51 PM

                   http://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-101/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-2


                   The Role call as remembered by Wes

                   @ 20.33

               Wes also remembers in this video, ( approx @ 13.58 - 15.20 )how Lee walked from the dock area, along Houston out onto Elm and headed toward a cafe' or some such on his departure.

               Wes Remembers a lot.

               If a role call was held wouldn't it have been nice of Wes to let Mr Truly and Mr Shelley know that, no Lee had wandered up the Street to have lunch again, the cheese sanwich and apple just didn't cut it first time round


           I don't know about the cafe, but I believe he is simply replacing himself with Oswald.


           Oswald is on the list of employees whose names were taken. Frazier's is not.

       Greg,

       sorry if I confused the issue here, simply was trying to point out how full of it Wes is.........

       I don't for a moment think he saw Oswald doing what he says he did after the shots were fired

   Understood, but I think he did a lot of switching of information.


   He took a package, not Oswald.


   Oswald took his lunch cradled between his legs in front seat. Cheese sanger and piece of fruit. He knows this from experience with Oswald - but that is the lunch he himself claimed to bring that day


   He left through the dock entrance, not Oswald as he would much later claim. We can guess it was him who did it because of his name being missing on that list.


   I think there are other examples that I'm not recalling right now.



I'll buy that. And I'm taking that to the bank. Because I think that's exactly whats going on.

And I think I know now what weasle Wes took with him to work that friday. It wasn't his lunch.....

Oswald took his lunch alright and Yeah there it sat on his lap on the front seat.

Wes took a punt, and lost....



March 15, 2015 at 6:09 AM

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

   Stan Dane at March 15, 2015 at 3:59 AM

   Lee:

   

   It's hard to say if there's a smudge that just happens to be on the 602 or if it's something else. The 2 does seem to line up consistent with the rest of the characters on that line, so I don't know. It's not like the raised/tilted 2 we saw on, IIRC, Tippit's death cert.

   

   


   

Question? When was Pay Day?

What day or days did TSBD employees get paid?
Was it 1st and 15th of the month?



$108 divided by 80 hours is $1.35 hour. So every two weeks?

OV Campbell said Oct 31 a Thursday and Nov 15 a Friday were LHO paydays. He was paid semi monthly in cash.
Lee had $43 unclaimed.
$43/$1.35Hr = 31.85 hours or 4 days work.
Looks like Lee got stiffed for Friday Nov 22....guess you can't depend on that roll call sheet or Wes as a witnesses for an employment compensation claim.

March 15, 2015 at 8:46 AM

Colin Crow
Member
Posts: 262

From memory, Marina got the pay owed Oswald for the morning of the 22nd. Seems they felt he worked that morning after all.
March 15, 2015 at 8:53 AM

Colin Crow
Member
Posts: 262

If you want to focus on what Wes (and Linnie May) concocted see his story in the interview with Gary Mack about his post shots actions until his time of arrest. I believe this is when the curtain rod story was created. Frazier manages to lose hours of time in his recollections. It has all the hallmarks of a fantasy.
March 15, 2015 at 8:58 AM

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

Ed,

Linnie Mae got on Revill's because of a mix-up through the Austin Motel manager phoning the FBI about Willie telling them that his wife's brother worked with Lee and had given him a lift. Somehow that ended up as a report that his WIFE worked there. So she was added to the list and crossed when the mistake was sorted out.

The list itself was made from the cops taking names and contact details before letting people go.

It has long been my contention that Lee is at the top of the list because he was the first to allowed to leave. Agreed

As for Frazier... he told Manchester that he left straight away because he figured there'd be no more work. Sound familiar? It's right there buried in the notes at the back of the book... but don't have time right to chase up exact quote or page number... perhaps Frazier left the same way he came in? "Frazier... calmly polished off his lunch in the Book Depository and then realizing that there could be no further work in the growing turmoil drove back to Irving."

The only useful information on the job application was an address, height and weigh. Not even a date of birth, and certainly not hair color. The job application is interesting for another reason. It asks if you "room & board", "live with parents", organizations you belong to and what your parents do, along with the usual work and health history. The reason for those questions is to try and establish how stable you are. One of the main issues with places like that is finding reliable workers - those who will turn up every day and do the work. As opposed to itinerates who are more likely to be lodging. The reason i bring this up is that people like DVP harp on about the lies he told - even on job application forms.

Room and Board meant you were in college and had a dorm room or such and were receiving money for room and board.
The organizations may be useful in determining history.

Greg can you point out lies on this form that would aid Lee artificially to get the job?    


I see he has lived continuously in Dallas since moving back. This was explained by Ruth to Truly I believe.
He attended Arlington Heights, he quit to join the Marines. Did he Finish the 11th grade, no. He did not complete the 10th.
Does this matter? No he is not correct as to the Grade he was in while at Arlington.
He got an Dischage when he left the Marines which was later changed to dis-honorable but he did not leave the Marines due to a dis-honorable discharge.
 On August 28, the Wing Hardship or Dependency Discharge Board recommended that Oswald's request for a discharge be approved;

on September 13, 1960, Oswald was given an "undesirable discharge" from the Marine Corps Reserve, he was appealing this.
He received an answer from the Navy Discharge Review Board in Aug.
He could still appeal to The Board for Corrections of Naval Records.
(BCNR) acts for the Secretary of the Navy. That Board will examine a constituent's service record and any evidence he/she submits and will make recommendations to the Secretary of the Navy concerning any corrective action deemed appropriate.
He could also sue the Government in the United States Court for Federal Claims (CFC) after exhausting both NDRB and BCNR options.
Not positive but he may legally claim honorable discharge while appeal is made.
Again his reason for leaving his last job was a Hardship Discharge. Characterization of service will be Honorable or General (under Honorable Conditions).

There is nothing "sinister" about this. For most people, it's survival - being able to get the job. In Oswald's case, it was just to keep the paperwork in line with what is expected. He had the job regardless, but it had to look like an application for someone you would employ.
I see only routine answers that may need more explanation than a one inch line can fit. So yeah nothing sinister.

But back to the main theme... yes -- no roll call - just cops taking details. Lee got out before they had decided to keep everyone there as a group and take the details as a group. But of course --- they still did get Lee's name and address off him before letting him loose. That is clear from what was reported in various papers, as well as by Harry Holmes ("I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about.") I believe when he says "then I went outside..." he is talking about after they took his name etc... Yes this make sense

Who knows whether it was Truly or Shelley who "okey'd" Oswald... Bottom line is Truly is in this up to his eyeballs, He set the pack after the rabbit. Imo it was Truly or sidekick Shelley who told Oswald getting involved even as a witness would blow the operation they were involved in keeping tabs on Molina and that he had to get to the Texas Theater to meet whomever so they could work out a plan. Oswald was being played. That was the plan. Send him off on a pretext, and then make out he had a done a runner. There also was obviously a plan in place to lead the cops to the theater, though I'm still thinking about how that may have worked.
He was tailed. He told someone where he was going. He left a breadcrumb trail...
March 15, 2015 at 10:37 AM

John Mooney
Member
Posts: 48

Another great thread.



There was no roll call and no reason for Truly to finger Oswald (if he did and it wasn't invented later) when there were others he couldn't possibly have seen who were "missing" as well.

March 16, 2015 at 3:08 AM

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

   Ed Ledoux at March 15, 2015 at 10:37 AM

   Ed,

   Linnie Mae got on Revill's because of a mix-up through the Austin Motel manager phoning the FBI about Willie telling them that his wife's brother worked with Lee and had given him a lift. Somehow that ended up as a report that his WIFE worked there. So she was added to the list and crossed when the mistake was sorted out.

   The list itself was made from the cops taking names and contact details before letting people go.

   It has long been my contention that Lee is at the top of the list because he was the first to allowed to leave. Agreed

   As for Frazier... he told Manchester that he left straight away because he figured there'd be no more work. Sound familiar? It's right there buried in the notes at the back of the book... but don't have time right to chase up exact quote or page number... perhaps Frazier left the same way he came in? "Frazier... calmly polished off his lunch in the Book Depository and then realizing that there could be no further work in the growing turmoil drove back to Irving."

   The only useful information on the job application was an address, height and weigh. Not even a date of birth, and certainly not hair color. The job application is interesting for another reason. It asks if you "room & board", "live with parents", organizations you belong to and what your parents do, along with the usual work and health history. The reason for those questions is to try and establish how stable you are. One of the main issues with places like that is finding reliable workers - those who will turn up every day and do the work. As opposed to itinerates who are more likely to be lodging. The reason i bring this up is that people like DVP harp on about the lies he told - even on job application forms.
   Room and Board meant you went to college and had a dorm room or such and were receiving money for room and board.
   The organizations may be useful in determining history.

   Greg can you point out lies on this form that would aid Lee artificially to get the job?    


   I see he has lived continously in Dallas since moving back. This was explained by Ruth to Truly I believe.
   He attended Arlington Heights, he quit to join the Marines. Did he Finish the 11th grade, no. He did not complete the 10th.
   Does this matter? No he is not correct as to the Grade he was in while at Arlington.
   He got an Dischage when he left the Marines which was later changed to dis-honorable but he did not leave the Marines due to a dis-honorable discharge.
     On August 28, the Wing Hardship or Dependency Discharge Board recommended that Oswald's request for a discharge be approved;

   on September 13, 1960, Oswald was given an "undesirable discharge" from the Marine Corps Reserve, he was appealing this.
   He received an answer from the Navy Discharge Review Board in Aug.
   He could still appeal to The Board for Corrections of Naval Records.
   (BCNR) acts for the Secretary of the Navy. That Board will examine a constituent's service record and any evidence he/she submits and will make recommendations to the Secretary of the Navy concerning any corrective action deemed appropriate.
   He could also sue the Government in the United States Court for Federal Claims (CFC) after exhausting both NDRB and BCNR options.
   Not positive but he may legally claim honorable discharge while appeal is made.
   Again his reason for leaving his last job was a Hardship Discharge. Characterization of service will be Honorable or General (under Honorable Conditions).

   There is nothing "sinister" about this. For most people, it's survival - being able to get the job. In Oswald's case, it was just to keep the paperwork in line with what is expected. He had the job regardless, but it had to look like an application for someone you would employ.
   I see only routine answers that may need more explanation than a one inch line can fit. So yeah nothing sinister.

   But back to the main theme... yes -- no roll call - just cops taking details. Lee got out before they had decided to keep everyone there as a group and take the details as a group. But of course --- they still did get Lee's name and address off him before letting him loose. That is clear from what was reported in various papers, as well as by Harry Holmes ("I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about.") I believe when he says "then I went outside..." he is talking about after they took his name etc... Yes this make sense

   Who knows whether it was Truly or Shelley who "okey'd" Oswald... Bottom line is Truly is in this up to his eyeballs, He set the pack after the rabbit. Imo it was Truly or sidekick Shelley who told Oswald getting involved even as a witness would blow the operation they were involved in keeping tabs on Molina and that he had to get to the Texas Theater to meet whomever so they could work out a plan. Oswald was being played. That was the plan. Send him off on a pretext, and then make out he had a done a runner. There also was obviously a plan in place to lead the cops to the theater, though I'm still thinking about how that may have worked. He was tailed. He told someone where he was going. He left a breadcrumb trail...

All good points, Ed.

March 16, 2015 at 3:38 AM

Colin Crow
Member
Posts: 262

What to make of this? A report relating to 22 November months later that contains the 605 Elsbeth address for Oswald again.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_709.pdf

March 16, 2015 at 8:42 AM

Steve Logan
Member
Posts: 25

Mr. DULLES. The original of this was made on November 22?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And signed on November 22d?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. DULLES. And later sworn to on April 7?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; this is correct.

Mr. DULLES. April 7, 1964.

Mr. RANKIN. Is all the information on 709 given by you?

Mr. REVILL Is this 709?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. REVILL. All of the information, what do you mean by this, sir?

Mr. RANKIN. All of the language and everything on that exhibit, did you give that to some stenographer to write?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I wrote it out. My stenographer, she is a clerk typist, and--I roughed it out and then she typed it for me.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, the words "subject" Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that given by you on the slip of paper you wrote out?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I wrote it out in longhand.

Mr. RANKIN. And the words 605 Elsbeth Street, was that given by you?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; this is the address we were given or I was given by some of the officers involved in the arrest.

Mr. RANKIN. Who gave that to you?

Mr. REVILL. I believe Detective Carroll, Carroll or Detective Taylor, they were both there.

Mr. RANKIN. And was that at the time you made this out that you were given that information?

Mr. REVILL. Shortly before I made this out.

Mr. RANKIN. You didn't even know where he lived then?

Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I did not. I had never heard of him.

Mr. RANKIN. You know that is wrong, don't you?

Mr. REVILL. The 605?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. REVILL. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Is it wrong?

Mr. REVILL. Yes; it is.

Mr. DULLES. As of the time.

Mr. REVILL. That is what they gave me.

Mr. RANKIN. You found that out?

Mr. DULLES. This is an address he once lived at.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know that?

Mr. DULLES. This is correct. I want to find out what he knows about it.

Mr. REVILL. Is this a-is this an incorrect address on Mr. Oswald where he was living at the time?

Mr. RANKIN. If you check it up I think you will find--it is an incorrect address at the time. I think you will also find that 602 Elsbeth Street is where he lived at one time.

Mr. REVILL. Now, where they got this address----

Mr. RANKIN. You never checked that?

Mr. REVILL. I personally have not checked it but I am sure it has been checked.

Mr. RANKIN. I see.

Mr. REVILL. But this is the address I was given.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, you say here that you were told that the subject was a member of the Communist Party. Is that right?

Mr. REVILL. This might be my interpretation of Mr. Hosty saying a Communist killed the President and we had him in our security files.

Mr. RANKIN. You are an expert in this field, aren't you? You are working in the subversive field?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; but as far as an expert, I wouldn't say I am an expert.

March 16, 2015 at 9:24 AM

Colin Crow
Member
Posts: 262

Steve, just was reading about that exchange in Accessories After the Fact. So, if it was given to Revill from Officers involved in the arrest it likely came from the library card and the 602 was put down as 605 by mistake.

March 16, 2015 at 9:54 AM

Colin Crow
Member
Posts: 262

Just noticed the ticked names represent those who were taken to DPD HQ that day.......and Geneva Hine.....was she taken in for questioning too that afternoon?
March 16, 2015 at 10:10 AM

Steve Logan
Member
Posts: 25

Apparently Oswald didn't even know his own address.




Lee Harvey Oswald Annotated Pay Stub. 3.5" x 10" pay stub. Issued by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, Inc. of Dallas, Texas, for the pay period ending March 27, 1963. Oswald has written on both sides.
March 16, 2015 at 10:36 AM

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

Was Jack Revill so out of the loop he didn't know of the Beckley rooming house or even Irving address.
Why that Elsbeth address? He was getting mail at Irving. He was "living" at 1026 N. Beckley.
Yet by April 7 1964 Revill of the Criminal Intelligence Section goes off of an 11/22 report with the 605 Elsbeth address.
 
Steve it does seem strange 702 Elsbeth and below Neely $65 written in pen

http://www.universityarchives.com/Find-an-Item/Results-List/Item-Detail.aspx?ItemID=57315
This check stub is valued at $8500

But we have the front in pen also the JCS phone number and the dates Oct 62 / Apr 63. Did Lee have to call and get his dates of employment.* Neely was $60 a month not $65. Lee supposedly moved to 214 W. Neely in March. He paid Waldo George on March 2nd the $60 for March's rent upfront. *(Someone with enough information could verify his employment)


Mr George goes to collect April's and get it in cash...then gets a call from the Gray's whom lived downstairs and was told Lee was beating his wife.
Of course when I talked with the Gray's they said no such thing, they claimed Marina spoke to them as Lee never did. Marina spoke and understood what the Gray's said. The Gray's speak english. The Gray's claim no Russian was spoken.
I find what Waldo said and what the Gray's say really took place at Neely are at odds. Beating his wife? Interesting claim that he never spoke to the Gray's about.
I think the Gray's themselves throw a monkey wrench in the Waldo George hearsay affidavit/statement/claim.
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/pdf/WH11_George_aff.pdf
March 17, 2015 at 2:12 AM

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049


March 17, 2015 at 3:21 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

   Colin Crow at March 16, 2015 at 10:10 AM

   Just noticed the ticked names represent those who were taken to DPD HQ that day.......and Geneva Hine.....was she taken in for questioning too that afternoon?

Her address is check marked also.
Paid a visit?


March 17, 2015 at 4:11 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

   Greg at March 17, 2015 at 3:21 AM


How far to Sonic?

605 Elsbeth was supposedly home of Earl? and Gertrude Roper WH.8_3202, would need to cross check the number in the directories.

Colin, Geneva Hines Address being checked off is interesting. Did they pay her a visit?

She is at the Eastern window of the second floor and the shots vibrate the building and sound like a cannon?
Which window she looked out?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; going north on Houston Street. I saw it turn left and I saw the President's car coming and I saw the President and saw him waving his hand in greeting up in the air and I saw his wife and I saw him turn the corner and after he turned the corner I looked and I saw the next car coming Just at the instant I saw the next car coming up was when I heard the shots.



Okay that would place her window between Campbell's office and the elevator

This would place a sixth floor rifle approximately 40 feet above and 40 more around the corner to the SNW.
Those were some powerful loads in that MC! Vibrate the building, cannon shots!
Again recall she went down the hall and found the South-Western Publishing Co door locked, and Carol Hughes did not answer.

This shows a cop crawling into the ladies bathroom on the second floor. Not all windows were screwed down for the a/c. Perhaps just the offices were a/c'd and windows secured?



So before Shelley goes out to watch the parade, Mr Shelley saw LHO on the shipping department floor near the telephone

Mr. Ball. On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot, when is the last time you saw Oswald?

Mr. Shelley. It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12.

Mr. Ball. Where?

Mr. Shelley. On the first floor over near the telephone.

Later we will have Robert MacNeil and Pierce Allman asking Oswald about the phone.

Mr. RANKIN. You just knew about the someone by the name of Lee, didn't you?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; Lee. And this was told to me by a colored employee of the School Book Depository. Myself and Lieutenant Frank Dyson took charge of the search of the building and we must have had 75 or 80 men in the building assisting in this search. I talked to a Negro----

Mr. DULLES. Were you in charge of that?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I was in charge of that phase of the search. I talked to a Negro by the name of Givens, and we had handled this person in the past for marijuana violations and I recognized him and in talking to him I asked him if he had been on the sixth floor, and as well as I recall, and Detective Brian was present at this same time he said, yes, that he had observed Mr. Lee, over by this window.
Well, I asked him who Mr. Lee was, he said, "It is a white boy." He didn't know his full name. So, I turned this Givens individual over to one of our Negro detectives and told him to take him to Captain Fritz for interrogation, and while going to the city hall, or the police station I passed this detective and Givens, and they came into the homicide and robbery bureau shortly after Hosty and I did, so I am sure Captain Fritz did talk to Mr. Givens.

Revill talks to Givens but fails to get his address for the list...

So Revill made up CE 709 from the list of employees at the roll call or from the officers whom took down the info from Lee. These would have been officers at the front door and had a different list than the upstairs employees or even a roll call at Shelley's or Truly's office? Revill did this and had Robertson type it up or it was dictated, take your pick.

Representative FORD. Did you write this out in longhand?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; and then I dictated it to one of the stenos in the office.
OR

Mr. RANKIN. You said you made some handwritten notes about this 709 exhibit.

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. When you gave them to the typist--do you know what happened to those notes?

Mr. REVILL They were destroyed, I am sure.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what her name is who typed 709?

Mr. REVILL. Mary Jane Robertson.

So within an hour of the hosty incident, Revill documents the info, and has the 605 address.

Mr. REVILL. As far as I am concerned I have; this report is honest, and it was made within an hour after he made the thing.

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; and to which I told him that I hated to do that because of Mr. Hosty, that he might have been stating a personal opinion. He said, "You put it on paper and give it to me and I will take it to Chief Curry," and this I did.

Within 30 minutes to an hour after the thing happened.

Mr. DULLES. I think that would be useful. I would like to know that. I would like to know where they got this address also.

Mr. REVILL. It would have been the same day because this was made within an hour...

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question? Where did you get this address that you put on of 605 Elsbeth Street, do you recall?

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; from Detective E. B. Carroll or Detective Taylor. (He means Bob K Carroll)

So Revill gets this address from them and includes this as Lee's address.

Mr. DULLES. At what time of day did you make this actual statement and sign it approximately?

Mr. REVILL. Approximately 3:30, 3:35.


BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER YOU ARE BUSTED YOU WENT DIRECTLY HOME!!!


March 17, 2015 at 11:48 AM


Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

Ed, the Givens' story is all over the place. He had gone and returned later, but never got back in. He tried a second time after seeing Jarman was on his way home, but this time he was recognized and taken straight down town. That's why his name is missing. He wasn't there at the time the list was compiled, and they simpley neglected to add it later, as they did some others.


Neither Carroll nor Taylor (as far as I know) ever mention obtaining an Elsbeth address, nor do they appear to have ever been quizzed about it.



   Mr. CARROLL. Someone in the car may have read from the identification. I know two names, the best I recall, were mentioned.

   Mr. BELIN. Were any addresses mentioned?

   Mr. CARROLL. Not that I recall; no, sir.

-----------------

   Mr. BELIN. Did you ever hear anyone say anything about his having an address on North Beckley or on Beckley Street?

   Mr. CARROLL. I heard later, but I couldn't say who it was that said it.

   Mr. BELIN. When you say later, you mean later than what?

   Mr. CARROLL. Later that day.

   Mr. BELIN. Was this after you relinquished custody of Oswald?

   Mr. CARROLL. Yes.




I think that we can safely say Revill was lying through his teeth. I'm happy to accept the address was obtained from a library card - just not at the time of the arrest - at the time Lee left the building.


Another perinent factor may well be that Revill did not have his office at City Hall. That cuts down opportunity for cross-referencing of information.
March 17, 2015 at 4:30 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921

Paul Bentley mentioned the Elsbeth address when he appeared live on TV a few hours after the arrest.  He pronounced it "Elizabeth."


Maybe Oswald lived at every address on Elsbeth and West Neely?


EDIT: I'm not certain it was a few hours after the arrest.  It was most definitely over the assassination weekend.
March 17, 2015 at 4:51 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Greg
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Posts: 2049

   Lee Farley at March 17, 2015 at 4:51 PM

   Paul Bentley mentioned the Elsbeth address when he appeared live on TV a few hours after the arrest.  He pronounced it "Elizabeth."


   Maybe Oswald lived at every address on Elsbeth and West Neely?


   EDIT: I'm not certain it was a few hours after the arrest.  It was most definitely over the assassination weekend.

Thanks Lee,


I know he was interviewed. I think the transcripts are in the CEs. I'll try and locate.
March 17, 2015 at 4:57 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921

https://youtu.be/9DSFKhaNqqU


Correction.  Bentley calls it the "Elsberry Address."  8m 50s into video
March 17, 2015 at 5:08 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

   Lee Farley at March 17, 2015 at 5:08 PM

   https://youtu.be/9DSFKhaNqqU


   Correction.  Bentley calls it the "Elsberry Address."  8m 50s into video

Thanks again, Lee.


This was taped on the Saturday. To my ears he says "Elsbury" but whatever the case, he surely does mean Elsbeth - and yes - he mentions the library card in relation to it.


What we need now is to see that card to see what Elsbeth address is on it - and if his name is written as "Harvey Lee Oswald". Glaringly and unsurprisingly, there is no mention of any duel ID's or aliases.  
March 17, 2015 at 5:41 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Lee Farley
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Posts: 921

   Greg at March 17, 2015 at 5:41 PM

       Lee Farley at March 17, 2015 at 5:08 PM

       https://youtu.be/9DSFKhaNqqU


       Correction.  Bentley calls it the "Elsberry Address."  8m 50s into video

   Thanks again, Lee.


   This was taped on the Saturday. To my ears he says "Elsbury" but whatever the case, he surely does mean Elsbeth - and yes - he mentions the library card in relation to it.


   What we need now is to see that card to see what Elsbeth address is on it - and if his name is written as "Harvey Lee Oswald". Glaringly and unsurprisingly, there is no mention of any duel ID's or aliases.  

It's on page one of this thread, Greg.


You're right about the dual ID's.  They wouldn;t have known what his name was in the car and would have been forced to ask him the same question that Gus Rose claimed he asked.  "Are you Hidel or Oswald?"
March 17, 2015 at 5:45 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Greg
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Posts: 2049

   It's on page one of this thread, Greg.

   You're right about the dual ID's. They wouldn;t have known what his name was in the car and would have been forced to ask him the same question that Gus Rose claimed he asked. "Are you Hidel or Oswald?"


You contend it is on the first page, Lee, but I have seen no feasible evidence for this, since I have not visited myself upon the first page for verily a day a more.


So what do you think? The info came to Revill via Bentley, or via Oswald? This has thrown a little doubt into my mind, but I still lean towards Oswald. A cop at the door under those circumstances is much more likely to write down a wrong number and get the name jumbled trying to quickly unjumble "Oswald, Mr Lee Harvey" than is a secretary/typist - if she was working off the card itself, or from a written copy of the information. Oswald flashing the card at the door doesn't preclude Bentley looking at it and making a note of the info on it. I admit, it's he too, could make the same error that I am positing happened at the TSBD, but I think it's slightly less likely.


Okay. Gonna read all the posts I missed on the first page.


March 17, 2015 at 6:39 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

Perhaps the front door list?


If they copied the Oswald Name and address from the Library card he presented at the front door its possible the smudged 2 could be mistaken for a 5.
But the name on the card is Oswald , Mr. Lee Harvey and signed Lee H Oswald.
The DPD roll call list has him as Harvey Lee Oswald.


Besides the Elsberry gaff Bentley says Lee had a drivers license, and credit cards also....


Allen photo was taken aroud 12:30-1pm and has Eddie Piper, and others outside,,, When was that roll call?



March 18, 2015 at 6:08 AM

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

If they copied the Oswald Name and address from the Library card he presented at the front door its possible the smudged 2 could be mistaken for a 5.

But the name on the card is Oswald , Mr. Lee Harvey and signed Lee H Oswald.

The DPD roll call list has him as Harvey Lee Oswald.

Besides the Elsberry gaff Bentley says Lee had a drivers license, and credit cards also....


Ed, yeah, the name on the card is different. But that was kind of my point. If the address was copied off the card by Bently and given to the secretary type up the list, or whether the secretary actually the card the information herself - either way - the mistake we see on the list is not what you would expect from people who have time to study the information and get it right. At the scene of the crime and sheer chaos of the moment, such a mistake is understandable if done at the door of the TSBD. It's almost as if the poor cop was trying to read the info off a card being held upside down in front of him. I don't many would check the sig when a typed version of the name is visible...


In fact, I'm now convinced that the name on the list being exactly the reverse of what was on the card, is further evidence it was done at the door.


Bentley is full of shit. Both he AND McDonald claimed they stopped the firing pin in the gun...and there was no driver's license let alone credit cards.


Another thing... the mystery of the address deepens a little. There actually was/is an Elsberry Ave in Richardson...



March 18, 2015 at 6:35 AM

Colin Crow
Member
Posts: 262

Maybe the problem was he had three names that could all be considered first names at a quick glance. All could be surnames too.

whats your name son...."Lee"

other names

yeah Harvey...

Harvey Lee?

no my surname is Oswald.
March 18, 2015 at 6:48 AM

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

Yeah, that's a point, too, Colin. But I am taken with the reversal of the names from the card to the list. Some of those cops weren't real bright. Reading the card upside is my bet. And that almost certainly had to happen at the door of the TSBD.
March 18, 2015 at 6:58 AM

Colin Crow
Member
Posts: 262

Agree Greg. Maybe a mixture of verbal and visual confusion.
March 18, 2015 at 8:21 AM

Mick Purdy
Moderator
Posts: 1403

Mr. BALL - At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask for Lee?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know, like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you know, put down proper information where he could be found if they wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us all that was there could go ahead and go home.

Mr. BALL - Then you went on home?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.


Bullshit Wes!
March 19, 2015 at 10:13 PM

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

Mick Purdy at March 19, 2015 at 10:13 PM

Mr. BALL - At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask for Lee?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know, like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you know, put down proper information where he could be found if they wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us all that was there could go ahead and go home.

Mr. BALL - Then you went on home?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.


Bullshit Wes!

Maybe, maybe not, Mick


From Holmes' testimony on what Oswald had said in interrogation...


"I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later."


That sounds awefully similar to what Frazier is describing. I don;t see how LHO could know that unless it happened to him.
March 20, 2015 at 12:47 AM

Mick Purdy
Moderator
Posts: 1403

Greg at March 20, 2015 at 12:47 AM

Mick Purdy at March 19, 2015 at 10:13 PM

Mr. BALL - At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask for Lee?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know, like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you know, put down proper information where he could be found if they wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us all that was there could go ahead and go home.

Mr. BALL - Then you went on home?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.


Bullshit Wes!

Maybe, maybe not, Mick


From Holmes' testimony on what Oswald had said in interrogation...


"I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later."


That sounds awefully similar to what Frazier is describing. I don;t see how LHO could know that unless it happened to him.

It sounds awfully similar except for the 3 men, officers I believe which Wes claimed he had to answer to before he could get passed on his way out.......I just don't believe Wes any longer on very much at all. And wouldn't him giving all this info landed his name on the roll sheet, if there was one.

That said, it may well have happened the way he's described....I'm just a little jaded by Wes's BS. Maybe I need to stand down for a bit..clear the head.



March 20, 2015 at 12:55 AM

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

It sounds awfully similar except for the 3 men, officers I believe which Wes claimed he had to answer to before he could get passed on his way out.......I just don't believe Wes any longer on very much at all. And wouldn't him giving all this info landed his name on the roll sheet, if there was one.

That said, it may well have happened the way he's described....I'm just a little jaded by Wes's BS. Maybe I need to stand down for a bit..clear the head.


Sorry Mick, I should have been clearer. I don't believe Wes actually went through that. He is missing from the list. But he had access to other employees who could tell him what happened after he left. Oswald never had that.


I think the very slight difference in the versions is that when Oswald left, the cops hadn't fully got themselves orginzed. When they were fully organized, it became more of a "production line" samba to th exit,


My main point was that the stories sre so silimar as to suggest Oswald got something right that he could not have knwn about if the official story is true.
March 20, 2015 at 1:07 AM

Mick Purdy
Moderator
Posts: 1403

Greg at March 20, 2015 at 1:07 AM

It sounds awfully similar except for the 3 men, officers I believe which Wes claimed he had to answer to before he could get passed on his way out.......I just don't believe Wes any longer on very much at all. And wouldn't him giving all this info landed his name on the roll sheet, if there was one.

That said, it may well have happened the way he's described....I'm just a little jaded by Wes's BS. Maybe I need to stand down for a bit..clear the head.


Sorry Mick, I should have been clearer. I don't believe Wes actually went through that. He is missing from the list. But he had access to other employees who could tell him what happened after he left. Oswald never had that.


I think the very slight difference in the versions is that when Oswald left, the cops hadn't fully got themselves orginzed. When they were fully organized, it became more of a "production line" samba to th exit,


My main point was that the stories sre so silimar as to suggest Oswald got something right that he could not have knwn about if the official story is true.

No Greg, you were clear. I've re-read what you said and it's clear what you meant.....Wes has got to me.

I see exactly what you mean, Oswald could never have known about theses things if he hadn't actually been there.....

I think I need a break.....

March 20, 2015 at 1:17 AM

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

I agree, great find Mick. He says no Roll Call but a check in line like at the airport

Yeah I seriously doubt they were calling out Lee's name like Ferris Bueller's.
Bueller?... Bueller?... Bueller?

Wes's shuffle out the door has document checks and holding areas. He makes it sound like they were let go in
groups.
Greg, does Elsberry Ave in Richardson have addresses in the 600's?

March 21, 2015 at 8:34 AM

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

Greg, does Elsberry Ave in Richardson have addresses in the 600's?


I thought you'd never ask... why yes it does, Ed.

March 21, 2015 at 8:50 AM

Terry Martin
Moderator
Posts: 1143

Ed Ledoux at March 21, 2015 at 8:34 AM

I agree, great find Mick. He says no Roll Call but a check in line like at the airport

Yeah I seriously doubt they were calling out Lee's name like Ferris Bueller's.
Bueller?... Bueller?... Bueller?

Wes's shuffle out the door has document checks and holding areas. He makes it sound like they were let go in
groups.
Greg, does Elsberry Ave in Richardson have addresses in the 600's?

"Bueller?... Bueller?... Bueller?"


Ed, you wouldn't have been sneaking any peeks at my manuscript, have you?


Great work, Mick, Greg. No roll call but a conga line out the front door and the "only one missing" was... Bueller!


It seems Oswald does have a doppelganger but it wasn't any Harvey, it was a copycat-Wesley.
March 21, 2015 at 10:47 AM

Lee Farley
Administrator
Posts: 921

Is this definitely considered Richardson?
March 21, 2015 at 11:24 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

Lee Farley at March 21, 2015 at 11:24 AM

Is this definitely considered Richardson?

That could be an error on my part...
March 21, 2015 at 6:07 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Terry Martin
Moderator
Posts: 1143

Lee Farley at March 21, 2015 at 11:24 AM

Is this definitely considered Richardson?

There's no Elsberry in Richardson (northeast of Dallas).


The Elsberry Greg found is in southeast Dallas.
March 21, 2015 at 6:24 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

I am directionally challenged
March 21, 2015 at 6:27 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Terry Martin
Moderator
Posts: 1143

Greg at March 21, 2015 at 6:27 PM

I am directionally challenged

Sorry, Greg. I think you mentioned that before.


I was not trying to be mean... or anything...
March 21, 2015 at 8:59 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

Terry Martin at March 21, 2015 at 8:59 PM

Greg at March 21, 2015 at 6:27 PM

I am directionally challenged

Sorry, Greg. I think you mentioned that before.


I was not trying to be mean... or anything...

Cut it out, Terry...no offence taken. My wife beats me up it about all the time!
March 21, 2015 at 9:07 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Colin Crow
Member
Posts: 262

Colin Crow at March 15, 2015 at 4:03 AM

Lee,

it appears somewhat smudged but not as if its been typed over. Easily mstaken for a 5 at a glance. The appearance of this address is bizzarre IMO.



http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11344&relPageId=2






April 3, 2015 at 7:59 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Colin Crow
Member
Posts: 262

In the document linked above Revill claimed he got the info from Caroll who was driving the arrest car. Carroll "peeked" over to look at the library card and got the address wrong.
April 3, 2015 at 8:11 PM

Colin Crow
Member
Posts: 262

Identification was required at the "roll call" according to Jarman....

Mr. JARMAN - When we started to line up to show our identification, quite a few of us asked where was Lee. That is what we called him, and he wasn't anywhere around. We started asking each other, have you seen Lee Oswald, and they said no.
April 4, 2015 at 1:02 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

So both Jarman (thanks Colin) and Frazier (Thanks Mick) were asked for ID.
And we all know LHO did not have proper ID but only mocked up cards for Alek Hidell
Yes this had to be a library card snafu, pretty sure the DPD cops were unfamiliar with books or libraries!
April 4, 2015 at 8:11 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Mick Purdy
Moderator
Posts: 1403

Colin Crow at April 4, 2015 at 1:02 AM

Identification was required at the "roll call" according to Jarman....

Mr. JARMAN - When we started to line up to show our identification, quite a few of us asked where was Lee. That is what we called him, and he wasn't anywhere around. We started asking each other, have you seen Lee Oswald, and they said no.

Not sure whether Jarman had cause to wonder where Lee was, didn't seem to know him all that well




Mr. BALL - Did you know Lee Oswald?

Mr. JARMAN - Only as a coworker.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever talk to him while he was working there?

Mr. JARMAN - I have had him to correct orders at various times. That is about all.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever talk to him about politics?

Mr. JARMAN - No.

Mr. BALL - Religion?

Mr. JARMAN - No.

Mr. BALL - Anything at all?

Mr. JARMAN - Not until November the 22d.

Mr. BALL - Not until that day?

Mr. JARMAN - Not until that day.

Mr. BALL - Did Oswald have any friends there?

Mr. JARMAN - Well, not that I know of.

Mr. BALL - Did he have any close friend that he would eat lunch with every day?

Mr. JARMAN - No. sir; not that I know of.

April 4, 2015 at 8:18 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Terry Martin
Moderator
Posts: 1143

So the "roll call" has now been vonfirmed as a conga line to exit the building. And the first name on the list - using a library card as ID - was Oswald.


Seems more and more like the Ozzie told the truth camp has more legs that other people with fuzzy audio "proof".
April 4, 2015 at 8:29 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Barto
Moderator
Posts: 1915

Howard Roffman, ''Who Was Harvey Lee Oswald of 605 Elsbeth.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/O%20Disk/Oswald%20Lee%20Harvey/False/In%20Dallas/Item%2019.pdf
--

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Prayer Man The Movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0B8JhOe3KU

Prayer Man website: http://www.prayer-man.com/

Prayer Man on Twitter: https://twitter.com/PMisLeeOswald




April 26, 2015 at 9:23 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

Bart that Revill part makes me recall the Truck Dirver whom said he was in the TSBD that afternoon using the lav.


The notion that LHO was guilty yet there was a conspiracy or conspirators being widely favored in Dallas circles seems like the Oswald did it brainwashing worked yet caused bi-polar disorders in its believers.

605 Elsbeth address, has me wondering about Bentley reading off an Oak Cliff, possibly Neely St. and an Irving address.
Where would Paul read these addresses from?
Where would LHO have these addresses writen down in his wallet? He didn't of course.
What was the Irving address and when was it from? Was it from an earlier time when Lee lived with his pen pal Ruth?
The only address in the wallet was the 602 Elsbeth address on the library card.


The Peggy "joyce" Bigler Hawkins making the Roll Call list makes one wonder about how she was included if she was not an employee and not inside the TSBD.

The info from the Roffman-Weisberg letter contains all the important avenues, Thanks Bart!

You know it Terry!
First on the list, Oswald would be the first to exit.
Oswald gave Westphal/Parks the library card and the 2 was transposed to a 5, much like the 2 vs 3 of the 903 Westmont address directly below Oswalds.

April 28, 2015 at 9:56 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Terry Martin
Moderator
Posts: 1143

Ed Ledoux at April 4, 2015 at 8:11 PM

So both Jarman (thanks Colin) and Frazier (Thanks Mick) were asked for ID.
And we all know LHO did not have proper ID but only mocked up cards for Alek Hidell
Yes this had to be a library card snafu, pretty sure the DPD cops were unfamiliar with books or libraries!

Wasn't the address correct on the Hidell card... or was that just a PO Box? Still it should have been better than the smudged address off a library card.



And I can just hear the officer now,

"What's this?"

Lee - "My library card."

Offcr - "Library? What the hell is that?"

Lee - "You know, the place where they have books for people to read."

Officer (stepping back and dropping his hand to the butt of his pistol) - "Son, I don't know where you're getting this drivel from. What are you, a communist or something?"






April 28, 2015 at 10:08 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Colin Crow
Member
Posts: 262

Genesis of the Roll Call



Is Sorrels the instigaor? While most of the employees interviewed do mention a "roll call" perhaps it is this suggetion by Sorrels, who arrived at the TSBD sometime around 1pm.





Mr. SORRELS - Yes, sir; because I knew that there would be witnesses around there, there would have to be somebody in that vicinity.

And upon arrival at the Book Depository, I went in the back door.

There were people moving around.

I asked, "Where is the manager here?"

Mr. STERN - Just a minute.

How much time do you think elapsed from the time the shots were fired until the time you returned to the Book Depository?

Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been over about 20 minutes, because we went to the hospital just as fast as we possibly could, and I wasn't there very long.

And we came back as fast as we could.

Of course we didn't get back as fast as we went out there, because traffic was moving.

The other way it was just cleared out to the Trade Mart. We had clear sailing from the time that the shots were fired until we got to the Trade Mart, because that was the route that we were going to go anyway. And that was cleared out.

But coming back, of course, there was traffic. We did come back under lights and siren, as fast as we could.

But there was traffic that slowed us up some.

Mr. STERN - So you estimate not more than 20 minutes?

Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been more than 20 or 25 minutes at the very most.

Mr. STERN - Then you arrived at the Book Depository Building, and did you see any police officers outside the building?

Mr. SORRELS - Yes; there were officers. I recall seeing officers. I could not say any specific one.

Now, as I came into the back of the building, there was a colored man standing on the rear platform, a loading platform. And he was just standing there looking off into the distance. I don't think he knew what happened.

And I said to him, "Did you see anyone run out the back?"

He said, "No, sir."

"Did you see anyone leave the back way?"

"No, sir."

Mr. STERN - Did you get his name?

Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; I did not. I did not stop to do that, because I figured he was an employee of the building.

I went on the inside of the building and asked someone for the manager and they pointed to Mr. Truly.

I identified myself to Mr. Truly.

Mr. STERN - Just a minute.

Did you establish how long that man had been on the loading platform?

Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; I did not.

Mr. STERN - There was no policeman stationed at the loading platform when you came up?

Mr. SORRELS - I did not see one; no, sir.

Mr. STERN - And you were able to enter the building without identifying yourself?

Mr. SORRELS - Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN - Then you got inside the building and what did you do?

Mr. SORRELS - I asked for the manager, and I was directed to Mr. Truly. He was standing there.

I went up and identified myself to him. I said, "I want to get a stenographer, and we would like to have you put down the names and addresses of every employee of the building, in the building."

And I then walked on out the front door and asked, "Did anyone here see anything?"

And someone pointed to Mr. Brennan.

Mr. STERN - What was your purpose in asking for a list of the employees of the building?

Mr. SORRELS - Because I knew that they would have to be interviewed. I was trying to establish at that time without any delay, who all was in that building or was employed there, because I knew they would have to be talked to later.

In other words, I was looking for someone that saw something.

Mr. STERN - You were looking for potential witnesses?

Mr. SORRELS - Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN - And at that time you had no basis for suspecting any employee might be involved one way or the other?

Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; and I did not know at that time that the shots came from the building.







Truly had been up to the roof with Baker, then returned down the east elevator, pausing at the 4th floor as Baker talked to Sawyer. It seems reasonable that Truly was then on the first floor from about 12.40 until the arrival of Sorrels. Maybe as the workers were lining up to provide ID this is what became known as the "roll call".







When was the typed document prepared?





The interesting thing is that Oswald appears on top of the list and that his address is close (602 not 605) to that matching the library card claimed to have been found in his wallet following his arrest. Truly had already provided the Irving address to Fritz about 1.20pm but the Elsbeth address was used. I wonder as Elsbeth is in Oak cliff and the DPD were informed by Ruth Paine at the search of her residence that Oswald had a place at Oak Cliff this was mistakenly assumed as his current Oak Cliff address. Fritz learned of North Beckley around this time also from an unknown officer prior to Oswald's interrogation. It could be that communication channels to the list typer were not functioning and that maybe this is the clue to the tie it was made.





We see the following individuals hand written (and all ticked), Truly, Dougherty, Jarman, Lovelady and Linnie May Randle. It is interesting to note the absence of Shelley. The ticks indicate a first day statment was taken and hand written names indicate those who were not processed in the same way the others were at the TSBD (ie show of ID). LMR may have been included on the list as she provided information about this time and a statment later that day, hence the tick. She was subsequently scratched from the list as she was not an employee.





There are some interestng anomolies to this system. Jarman did not provide a statement until the next day. I am unsure why he does not fit the system. He should have had to produce ID and been "typed up". Was he taken to City Hall with the others that afternoon? Was it because Brennan ID'd him? Williams and Arce were both taken in a car with Shelley to City Hall and yet there names are typed. Lovelady and Dougherty were in another car. Did this car leave earlier, before the ID was taken and names listed?





Why wasn't Frazier taken to City Hall with the others?





Obviously those taken to City Hall were the members of the Flooring Crew, Shelley, Williams, Arce, Lovelady and eventually Givens upon his return. One might assume that Dougherty was also taken because he had also been on the 6th floor that day. However, both Frazier and Norman had been on the 6th floor tha morning but were not detained from leaving. Why was Dougherty special? One might see that Oswald might be of interest if merely access to the 6th floor during the morning was the criteria, but at that time Oswald was essentially the same category as Frazier. The early interest in Dougherty needs more thought.Presumably Jarman was of interest as he was ID'd by Brennan exiting the building. Again, why was Norman allowed to leave? Seems he kept a low profile, he was not at home and did not provide a statement until the 26th!! I wonder if he avoided work on the Monday after the assassination.

If Frazier knew Lee was missing why did't he say "I just saw him crossing Houston" according to his recent statements??





Dougherty and Truly



When reading Truly's testimony we must remember this occurred a few days after the massaging of the storyline by Ball and Belin that occurred around March 20, on site, in the TSBD with the witnesses as a group. The sighting of Dougherty on the 5th floor on the way down appears for the first time. Previously Truly had mentioned a cop on the fifth!! Now he is transformed into Dougherty. Was this cop actually the man Dougherty mentioned in his testimony? The one who told Dougherty to go find his manager. Was this the real reason Dougherty eventually went to the first floor. Is this why Dougherty eventually claimed in his testimony that when he was looking for Truly he couldn't find him because he was on 4? Was this simply told by Truly to Dougherty as an attempt at corroboration?
April 29, 2015 at 1:17 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Barto
Moderator
Posts: 1915

Mark Lane's Rush To Judgment on The Roll Call, page 2

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/J%20Disk/JFK%20Honor%20Guard/Item%2006.pdf

Posner's roll call

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/P%20Disk/Posner%20Gerald%20Case%20Closed/File/Item%2014.pdf

Roy Schaefer discussing BWF description/timing and his absemce of the roll call, page 62

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/Weisberg-Subject-Adds%201-23-09/Schaeffer%20Roy%20L/Schaeffer%2006.pdf
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April 29, 2015 at 4:50 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

Thanks for those links Bart.
Oldies but some goodies in them!

The 1-2pm Roll Call would fit right in to a LHO leaving first and being atop the list.
I don't think we will find a confession of a DPD officer whom took down LHO's name and released him.

Well no other address was on the wallet contents, so I don't think any card would be the source.





Nothing remotely considered an address.

April 29, 2015 at 10:07 PM

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

Did I miss something? I thought there was general agreement it came from his old library card? My position is that he flashed it to the cop/s upside down. Right way up it read, "Oswald, Mr Lee Harvey". But the cop, looking at it upside down, wrote it as "Harvey Lee Oswald"...
--

I'm just one of the Dregs of Society from South Bunyip Valley Heights


In an expanding universe, time is on the side of the outcast. Those who once

inhabited the suburbs of human contempt find that without changing their

address they eventually live in the metropolis. Quentin Crisp


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They put Johnny and Bobby in the ground

Then the place was run by shucks and clowns

Motherfuckers are still thick on the ground

Coz there’s a new God – There’s a new God in town.

Steve Schwartz & the Strap-Ons


April 29, 2015 at 10:47 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Colin Crow
Member
Posts: 262

It has to be the library card. If the "roll call" was initiated by Sorrels then it would seem difficult for Oswald to have been checked at the TSBD door so late. If the list was typed about 3pm Oswald might be at the top because he was already in custody......using the address on that card (almost). Fritz had the Beckely and Irving addresses by the first interrogation. Seems no one told the list typer.
April 30, 2015 at 12:06 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

Colin Crow at April 30, 2015 at 12:06 AM

It has to be the library card. If the "roll call" was initiated by Sorrels then it would seem difficult for Oswald to have been checked at the TSBD door so late. If the list was typed about 3pm Oswald might be at the top because he was already in custody......using the address on that card (almost). Fritz had the Beckely and Irving addresses by the first interrogation. Seems no one told the list typer.

Colin,


Oswald himself stated he was stopped at the front door by a cop and asked to stand aside till they got to him. Sonds like after that, he was vouched for by whomever, flashed his library card for the cop to jot down name and address and off he went. I don't think it's any more complicated than that.
--

I'm just one of the Dregs of Society from South Bunyip Valley Heights


In an expanding universe, time is on the side of the outcast. Those who once

inhabited the suburbs of human contempt find that without changing their

address they eventually live in the metropolis. Quentin Crisp


http://gregparke4.wix.com/gregrparker


They put Johnny and Bobby in the ground

Then the place was run by shucks and clowns

Motherfuckers are still thick on the ground

Coz there’s a new God – There’s a new God in town.

Steve Schwartz & the Strap-Ons


April 30, 2015 at 12:38 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Beowulf
Member
Posts: 179 I agree with Colin here. The address is from finding the library card in Oswald's wallet after his arrest. Since this memo was typed at the station after LHO was already in custody, being first on the typed list doesn't mean he was the first person to show cops his ID to a cop at TSBD door. It simply means that by then he was already the prime suspect so naturally his info is front and center. If Frazier can be believed that Oswald left by the back door, it does changes things. Assuming there was no Oswald/Baker encounter at the front door (or as you speculate, Oswald was later checked out by a second cop), maybe LHO ran into a cop at the back door and was vouched for by Shelley. Likewise the encounter with the man (a reporter?) Oswald thought a Secret Service agent asking for a phone could have taken place behind TSBD as well. Dallas Police Sgt Harkness was back there AND he did report the presence of Secret Service agents (who were, of course, fake). Oswald was pretty savvy about law enforcement. I've always been skeptical that he'd confuse a reporter's press badge with a federal agent's commission book.
--


April 30, 2015 at 9:36 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106



Genesis of the Roll Call





Is Sorrels the instigator? While most of the employees interviewed do mention a "roll call" perhaps it is this suggetion by Sorrels, who arrived at the TSBD sometime around 1pm.







Mr. SORRELS - Yes, sir; because I knew that there would be witnesses around there, there would have to be somebody in that vicinity.



And upon arrival at the Book Depository, I went in the back door. Front door was too good for him. Didn't he arrive via Stemmons to the off ramp and came South down N. Houston St.?



There were people moving around.



I asked, "Where is the manager here?"



Mr. STERN - Just a minute.



How much time do you think elapsed from the time the shots were fired until the time you returned to the Book Depository?



Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been over about 20 minutes, because we went to the hospital just as fast as we possibly could, and I wasn't there very long.



And we came back as fast as we could.



Of course we didn't get back as fast as we went out there, because traffic was moving.



The other way it was just cleared out to the Trade Mart. We had clear sailing from the time that the shots were fired until we got to the Trade Mart, because that was the route that we were going to go anyway. And that was cleared out.



But coming back, of course, there was traffic. We did come back under lights and siren, as fast as we could.



But there was traffic that slowed us up some.



Mr. STERN - So you estimate not more than 20 minutes?



Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been more than 20 or 25 minutes at the very most.



Mr. STERN - Then you arrived at the Book Depository Building, and did you see any police officers outside the building?



Mr. SORRELS - Yes; there were officers. I recall seeing officers. I could not say any specific one. In front or in the rear???



Now, as I came into the back of the building, there was a colored man standing on the rear platform, a loading platform. And he was just standing there looking off into the distance. I don't think he knew what happened. So no officers in the rear by 1pm?



And I said to him, "Did you see anyone run out the back?"



He said, "No, sir."



"Did you see anyone leave the back way?"



"No, sir."



Mr. STERN - Did you get his name?



Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; Classic!!
I did not. I did not stop to do that, because I figured he was an employee of the building. Unlike Patrolman Baker accosting everyone at gunpoint...



I went on the inside of the building and asked someone for the manager and they pointed to Mr. Truly. Who poiinted out Truly? Jack?



I identified myself to Mr. Truly.



Mr. STERN - Just a minute.

Did you establish how long that man had been on the loading platform?

Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; I did not. Great police work...



Mr. STERN - There was no policeman stationed at the loading platform when you came up?



Mr. SORRELS - I did not see one; no, sir. So there was no cop at the rear by 1pm



Mr. STERN - And you were able to enter the building without identifying yourself?



Mr. SORRELS - Yes, sir.



Mr. STERN - Then you got inside the building and what did you do?



Mr. SORRELS - I asked for the manager, and I was directed to Mr. Truly. He was standing there.



I went up and identified myself to him. I said, "I want to get a stenographer, and we would like to have you put down the names and addresses of every employee of the building, in the building." But Truly was busy calling the warehouse to get the employee info on Oswald , so he told Sorrels to 'buzz off and take your own Roll Call'



And I then walked on out the front door and asked, "Did anyone here see anything?"



And someone pointed to Mr. Brennan.



Mr. STERN - What was your purpose in asking for a list of the employees of the building?



Mr. SORRELS - Because I knew that they would have to be interviewed. I was trying to establish at that time without any delay, who all was in that building or was employed there, because I knew they would have to be talked to later.



In other words, I was looking for someone that saw something. So did they ask each person in the conga line? Or was this just another spike in the railroading of Oswald.



Mr. STERN - You were looking for potential witnesses?



Mr. SORRELS - Yes, sir.



Mr. STERN - And at that time you had no basis for suspecting any employee might be involved one way or the other?

Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; and I did not know at that time that the shots came from the building. Right and neither did anyone else in Dealy Plaza. So they sealed off the building, and took everyones names, cause them shots came from the railroad yard... :/ say whaaaa









Truly had been up to the roof with Baker, then returned down the east elevator, pausing at the 4th floor as Baker talked to Sawyer. It seems reasonable that Truly was then on the first floor from about 12.40 until the arrival of Sorrels. Maybe as the workers were lining up to provide ID this is what became known as the "roll call". What was the reason for Sawyer and bunch to be hanging out on the fourth floor? If they asked anyone on 4 they would know instantly that that floor had no criminal activity or was part of the frame up









When was the typed document prepared?







The interesting thing is that Oswald appears on top of the list and that his address is close (602 not 605) to that matching the library card claimed to have been found in his wallet following his arrest. Truly had already provided the Irving address to Fritz about 1.20pm See Truly was too busy getting the "Oswald particulars" to be doing any roll call.
but the Elsbeth address was used. I wonder as Elsbeth is in Oak cliff and the DPD were informed by Ruth Paine at the search of her residence that Oswald had a place at Oak Cliff this was mistakenly assumed as his current Oak Cliff address.
All they had to do was ask Ruth where she moved the couple from and to. I don't believe for a second they needed to criss cross the phone number to get the Beckley address...they were already at the Beckley address.
Fritz learned of North Beckley around this time also from an unknown officer prior to Oswald's interrogation. It could be that communication channels to the list typer were not functioning and that maybe this is the clue to the time it was made.







We see the following individuals hand written (and all ticked), Truly, Dougherty, Jarman, Lovelady and Linnie May Randle. It is interesting to note the absence of Shelley. The ticks indicate a first day statment was taken and hand written names indicate those who were not processed in the same way the others were at the TSBD (ie show of ID). LMR may have been included on the list as she provided information about this time and a statment later that day, hence the tick. She was subsequently scratched from the list as she was not an employee. Geneva Hine with a tick mark by her name and by her address. So they scratch off Linnie Mae supposedly because she does not work there yet leave Peggy Bigler Hawkins on the list... yeah I'm not so sure about Linnie Mae and her part time employment or why she was crossed off. If someone can prove Linnie Mae never worked a day in her life I might believe the Hotel manager mixup as the reason for Linnie on the list.







There are some interestng anomolies to this system. Jarman did not provide a statement until the next day. I am unsure why he does not fit the system. He should have had to produce ID and been "typed up". Was he taken to City Hall with the others that afternoon? Was it because Brennan ID'd him? Williams and Arce were both taken in a car with Shelley to City Hall and yet there names are typed. Lovelady and Dougherty were in another car. Did this car leave earlier, before the ID was taken and names listed? We might say the system was over two days and not a first day check mark and typed up system.
So if Jarman slipped out with Lee or perhaps did not have any ID, could that have affected his being listed or checked off?







Why wasn't Frazier taken to City Hall with the others? He had to run home and stash his rifle after dropping Lee off at the Texas Theater







Obviously those taken to City Hall were the members of the Flooring Crew, Shelley, Williams, Arce, Lovelady and eventually Givens upon his return. One might assume that Dougherty was also taken because he had also been on the 6th floor that day. However, both Frazier and Norman had been on the 6th floor that morning but were not detained from leaving. Why was Dougherty special? He saw something or someone on six after the backfire, when he went up. If you read his statements and WC testimony it can be gleened that he did go see what the backfire noise was. He probably stumbled upon the diversion. Whether that was a fire cracker thrower or a rifle planter (rifle may have been there before 11/22 or was secreted in by "authorities")
One might see that Oswald might be of interest if merely access to the 6th floor during the morning was the criteria, but at that time Oswald was essentially the same category as Frazier. The early interest in Dougherty needs more thought. Agreed!!!!!!!!!! I'm ready to exhume the bastard just to do a forensic facial reconstruction. Find out what this man looked like and then convict him posthumously. NO QUARTER! In fact if you all would be so kind as to forward the relatives phone number I will explain how this exhumation process works and see if a family photo is not forthcoming. We have tried honey now iits time for some vinegar. Relatives of JD should realize THEY are the ones giving Jack a bad name, not researchers.
If they would like to suspend suspicion then a photo will stop that in its tracks (actually multiple photos so we know we are not getting any old photo of some unknown person, or it must be identifiable as JD, eg Military Service photo, etc.)
Presumably Jarman was of interest as he was ID'd by Brennan exiting the building. Again, why was Norman allowed to leave? Seems he kept a low profile, he was not at home and did not provide a statement until the 26th!! I wonder if he avoided work on the Monday after the assassination. Yeah I'm surprised he didn't hitchhike out of town like Crafard. Maybe he did but after Ruby took care of Oswald he decided it was all clear to re-appear.



If Frazier knew Lee was missing why did't he say "I just saw him crossing Houston" according to his recent statements??
A hanging offence if I've ever heard one. Texas does have the death penalty and no sunset on murder or accessory to murder.

Dougherty and Truly

When reading Truly's testimony we must remember this occurred a few days after the massaging of the story line by Ball and Belin that occurred around March 20, on site, in the TSBD with the witnesses as a group.

Ball and Belin at the scene of the crime, no not the shooting, but the railroading of Lee Oswald. That was the real crime.
But in legalese you can't harm a dead man...unless he was a president, ...except Kennedy.



The sighting of Dougherty on the 5th floor on the way down appears for the first time. Previously Truly had mentioned a cop on the fifth!! Would it scare you if a cop was on five or six when the assassination happened? Would you discount it?
Now he is transformed into Dougherty. Was this cop actually the man Dougherty mentioned in his testimony? The one who told Dougherty to go find his manager. Was this the real reason Dougherty eventually went to the first floor. Is this why Dougherty eventually claimed in his testimony that when he was looking for Truly he couldn't find him because he was on 4? Was this simply told by Truly to Dougherty as an attempt at corroboration?
Right, since Dougherty has trouble with dates and times, perhaps he was asked by the cop/man before the shots to go find the manager? "Go find your manager" whom is outside. Sounds like he was telling JD to get the hell out the building.


Very well prepared Roll Call Rundown Colin.
Cheers!!
April 30, 2015 at 10:09 AM

Barto
Moderator
Posts: 1915

Colin is right about the list, a minimum of 3PM is correct (since the bottom of the 2nd page mentions arrivals at 2:55PM!).

But it is even more feasible that this list was typed later, hours later.

So where are the written notes of this so called roll call? On that clipboard in the pic of the copper out front on top of the steps?
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April 30, 2015 at 10:27 AM

Barto
Moderator
Posts: 1915

It's getting better...

A critique by M. Shackleford on Posner's book:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Shackelford%20Martin/Item%2008.pdf

Page 15 under Depository Evidence

He repeats the myth that police gathered "every one of the Depository's employees on the first

floor. The only one missing was Lee Oswald."175
This is pure nonsense, as several Depository employees had already been taken in by police for questioning, including Danny Arce, Bonnie Ray Williams and Charles Givens.176

Others were still outside the building at the time.177
Finally, the roll call referred to was apparently the second attempt, and not held until after Oswald's arrest.176

174Dr. Roger McCarthy (Failure Analysis), "Trial of the Century," op. cit.

175p. 272.

176As photographs and film sequences show.

177Jim Marrs, Crossfire, p. 314, citing reporter Kent Biffle.

178ibid.

Inpp. 273-4.



Kent Biffle was a reporter who was one of the first ones to arrive on the Grassy Knoll, he then went towards the TSBD and entered with a bunch of cops.

Watch the whole thing but pay careful attention when you hit the 17:00 mark, where he talks about how slowly they progressed going through the building, then you will have to endure some LNer chat until 24:45 where Kent reckons he may have walked past Oswald and mentioning that Truly ok-ed it w the cops on the 1st floor....well well

And at 29:30 he mentions the roll call(s). Not sure if you all have seen this or mentioned it before, but I thought this was pretty significant stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWHbBrYXRIc




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April 30, 2015 at 11:19 AM

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

On that clipboard in the pic of the copper out front on top of the steps?
He was taking names of those whom entered?

So where are the written notes of this so called roll call?
Same place the slips from the dispatchers office went...

3PM is correct (since the bottom of the 2nd page mentions arrivals at 2:55PM!).
Yes 3pm for one of the lists. But Oswald was first on the first list, and that was around 1pm and likely the cops just took the name and address after checking ID, let him leave, later lists were compliled of those "outside" and in the offices and everyone there was held till someone, Sawyer?, gave the okay for the evacuation at 2:30-3pm.
The WC says the TSBD was sealed by Sawyer at 12:37 and Lee must have left before that.
Yet we have his name on the roll call sheet. We have LHO's name at the top, ala the first person asked and let go.
LHO said as much in Fritz' office.
Truly should have four names on the list of depository employees whom were in the building.
Oswald, Dougherty, Piper and West.
How would Truly know this?
Because he spoke or saw each one in the building after he entered with Baker. (supposedly saw or talked to each)

Of note is Lloyd Viles, he re-entered at 3:10pm! yet he is above the 2:55 group.
April 30, 2015 at 11:33 AM

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

Interesting Bart!

I was thinking of Ruth and Marina and the shopping they were to do, buying shoes, etc.
Now could Lee have called at lunch and talked to Marina about going shopping.
Could Lee, after being released from the TSBD, have gone to see if he could find Ruth and Marina shopping in Oak Cliff at the shoe stores?
Not finding them he takes in a movie, waiting till later or the regular time to head home.
Just spit balling an idea.
April 30, 2015 at 11:58 AM

Terry Martin
Moderator
Posts: 1143

Ed Ledoux at April 30, 2015 at 11:58 AM

Interesting Bart!

I was thinking of Ruth and Marina and the shopping they were to do, buying shoes, etc.
Now could Lee have called at lunch and talked to Marina about going shopping.
Could Lee, after being released from the TSBD, have gone to see if he could find Ruth and Marina shopping in Oak Cliff at the shoe stores?
Not finding them he takes in a movie, waiting till later or the regular time to head home.
Just spit balling an idea.

Ed, another spit ball right back at ya:



That reminds me of something Greg (??) mentioned in another thread that Lee might have known to get in touch with a guy at a shoe store and wound up going to Brewer's next door to Texas Theater when he really should have been going to one a little further down the block.



And perhaps that's why he kept hinting to Marina about the shoes.


April 30, 2015 at 12:50 PM

Barto
Moderator
Posts: 1915

Then of course there is Sean's post regarding kent at:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354&page=66 #977
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April 30, 2015 at 12:51 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

Beowulf at April 30, 2015 at 9:36 AM

I agree with Colin here. The address is from finding the library card in Oswald's wallet after his arrest. Since this memo was typed at the station after LHO was already in custody, being first on the typed list doesn't mean he was the first person to show cops his ID to a cop at TSBD door. It simply means that by then he was already the prime suspect so naturally his info is front and center. If Frazier can be believed that Oswald left by the back door, it does changes things. Assuming there was no Oswald/Baker encounter at the front door (or as you speculate, Oswald was later checked out by a second cop), maybe LHO ran into a cop at the back door and was vouched for by Shelley. Likewise the encounter with the man (a reporter?) Oswald thought a Secret Service agent asking for a phone could have taken place behind TSBD as well. Dallas Police Sgt Harkness was back there AND he did report the presence of Secret Service agents (who were, of course, fake). Oswald was pretty savvy about law enforcement. I've always been skeptical that he'd confuse a reporter's press badge with a federal agent's commission book.

The address is from finding the library card in Oswald's wallet after his arrest.

I'd buy that except for two things: there is no indication anyone was ever dispatched to that address and; the name written as it was strongly suggests it was observed upside down. I can't see someone writing or typing it that way if they had possession of the card in hand. The fact that Revill claimed it came from one of the arresing officers sounds like an assumption at best, CYA at worst - and is denied in any case by the officers in the arrest.
--

I'm just one of the Dregs of Society from South Bunyip Valley Heights


In an expanding universe, time is on the side of the outcast. Those who once

inhabited the suburbs of human contempt find that without changing their

address they eventually live in the metropolis. Quentin Crisp


http://gregparke4.wix.com/gregrparker


They put Johnny and Bobby in the ground

Then the place was run by shucks and clowns

Motherfuckers are still thick on the ground

Coz there’s a new God – There’s a new God in town.

Steve Schwartz & the Strap-Ons


April 30, 2015 at 6:34 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Colin Crow
Member
Posts: 262

Greg, I think whoever was driving the arrest car (Bentley?) claimed that he saw the car upside down on the way back to City Hall FWIW.
April 30, 2015 at 6:42 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

Colin, the arrest report with Bentley's name on it shows the N Beckley address.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/13/1383-001.gif


This report dated 11/22 from Revill to Gannaway still shows the Elsbeth address

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/37/3743-001.gif


From Bentley's arrest report:

"On the way to City Hall I removed the suspects wallet and obtained his name" and later... "I turned his identification over to Lt Baker"

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/06/0636-002.gif


So he himself handled the ID - taking it from the wallet. He does not mention any address indicating he only looked at one of the cards with a name only - i.e. a card that was not the library card.


Lt Baker doesn't mention receiving any address in his report. All he says (oddly referring to himslef in the 3rd person) is "Baker told Captain Fritz the subject's name was Lee Oswald..."

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/14/1458-003.gif


I have seen nothing that points away from the name and address being taken at the door.



--

I'm just one of the Dregs of Society from South Bunyip Valley Heights


In an expanding universe, time is on the side of the outcast. Those who once

inhabited the suburbs of human contempt find that without changing their

address they eventually live in the metropolis. Quentin Crisp


http://gregparke4.wix.com/gregrparker


They put Johnny and Bobby in the ground

Then the place was run by shucks and clowns

Motherfuckers are still thick on the ground

Coz there’s a new God – There’s a new God in town.

Steve Schwartz & the Strap-Ons


April 30, 2015 at 7:40 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Colin Crow
Member
Posts: 262

Maybe it wasn't Bentley who was driving.....senility setting in.....I do remember seeing a report/testiony alluding to the driver looking over shoulder at the time the cards were being looked at. He mentioned the card was upside down. To be honest, sounded suss and revisionist to me....that's why the FWIW
April 30, 2015 at 9:00 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Colin Crow
Member
Posts: 262

OK......found it earlier in this thread, in this May '64 report Revill claims it came from Caroll......

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11344&relPageId=2



April 30, 2015 at 9:11 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

Colin Crow at April 30, 2015 at 9:11 PM

OK......found it earlier in this thread, in this May '64 report Revill claims it came from Caroll......

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11344&relPageId=2



Colin, it is pure CYA.


Carroll went before the WC a month earlier. Here is the relevant section:



Mr. CARROLL. He gave, the best I recall, I wasn't able to look closely, but the best I recall, he gave two names, I think. I don't recall what the other one was. [abolsoute busllshit and never mentioned in any duty reports of the arrest]

Mr. BELIN. Did he give two names? Or did someone in the car read from the identification?

Mr. CARROLL. Someone in the car may have read from the identification. I know two names, the best I recall, were mentioned.

Mr. BELIN. Were any addresses mentioned?

Mr. CARROLL. Not that I recall; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk at any time to Oswald in the car?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I had no conversation with him personally.

Mr. BELIN. You were driving the car?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes. If I looked at him, I would have to turn around.


So a month after this, Revill is telling a different story and gives zero sources for his version.


They are covering up for the fact that Oswald flashed that card to an officer before leaving TSBD. Nothing else makes sense to me - or would be worth all the wiggling and CYA done around the ID/issue issue. Before you cover something up - it has to be worth covering up.


--

I'm just one of the Dregs of Society from South Bunyip Valley Heights


In an expanding universe, time is on the side of the outcast. Those who once

inhabited the suburbs of human contempt find that without changing their

address they eventually live in the metropolis. Quentin Crisp


http://gregparke4.wix.com/gregrparker


They put Johnny and Bobby in the ground

Then the place was run by shucks and clowns

Motherfuckers are still thick on the ground

Coz there’s a new God – There’s a new God in town.

Steve Schwartz & the Strap-Ons


April 30, 2015 at 9:51 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Colin Crow
Member
Posts: 262

I agree Greg. It's pure CYA, tryng to stop the gaps after the event. I just posted it for info....
April 30, 2015 at 10:01 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Beowulf
Member
Posts: 179

Greg at April 30, 2015 at 9:51 PM

Colin Crow at April 30, 2015 at 9:11 PM

OK......found it earlier in this thread, in this May '64 report Revill claims it came from Caroll......

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11344&relPageId=2



Colin, it is pure CYA.


Carroll went before the WC a month earlier. Here is the relevant section:



Mr. CARROLL. He gave, the best I recall, I wasn't able to look closely, but the best I recall, he gave two names, I think. I don't recall what the other one was. [abolsoute busllshit and never mentioned in any duty reports of the arrest]

Mr. BELIN. Did he give two names? Or did someone in the car read from the identification?

Mr. CARROLL. Someone in the car may have read from the identification. I know two names, the best I recall, were mentioned.

Mr. BELIN. Were any addresses mentioned?

Mr. CARROLL. Not that I recall; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk at any time to Oswald in the car?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I had no conversation with him personally.

Mr. BELIN. You were driving the car?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes. If I looked at him, I would have to turn around.


So a month after this, Revill is telling a different story and gives zero sources for his version.


They are covering up for the fact that Oswald flashed that card to an officer before leaving TSBD. Nothing else makes sense to me - or would be worth all the wiggling and CYA done around the ID/issue issue. Before you cover something up - it has to be worth covering up.


The other thing they could be covering is the planting (and then un-planting, as it were) of an Oswald wallet at the Tippit crime scene. No one wanted to claim any personal knowledge about Oswald's wallet or its contents in case the FBI started looking into the two wallet issue.
--


May 1, 2015 at 11:51 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Barto
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Posts: 1915

Ed Ledoux at April 30, 2015 at 11:58 AM

Interesting Bart!

I was thinking of Ruth and Marina and the shopping they were to do, buying shoes, etc.
Now could Lee have called at lunch and talked to Marina about going shopping.
Could Lee, after being released from the TSBD, have gone to see if he could find Ruth and Marina shopping in Oak Cliff at the shoe stores?
Not finding them he takes in a movie, waiting till later or the regular time to head home.
Just spit balling an idea.

Not so sure on that Ed., have there not been statements that Oswald changed his seat inside the theater a few times? Or is this a load of wannabe intel hogwash? H&L style

I will need to check in JD Unspeakable book as there prolly is a mention about this
--

_________________________________________________________________________________

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Prayer Man on Twitter: https://twitter.com/PMisLeeOswald




May 1, 2015 at 2:37 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Barto
Moderator
Posts: 1915

This is the same list with different markings.

_________________________________________________________________________________

Prayer Man The Movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0B8JhOe3KU

Prayer Man website: http://www.prayer-man.com/

Prayer Man on Twitter: https://twitter.com/PMisLeeOswald




May 1, 2015 at 5:55 PM

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

Greg at April 29, 2015 at 10:47 PM

Did I miss something? I thought there was general agreement it came from his old library card? My position is that he flashed it to the cop/s upside down. Right way up it read, "Oswald, Mr Lee Harvey". But the cop, looking at it upside down, wrote it as "Harvey Lee Oswald"...

Greg, address had to come from the Library Card as no other cards had addresses.
May 1, 2015 at 11:58 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

Greg at April 30, 2015 at 12:38 AM

Colin Crow at April 30, 2015 at 12:06 AM

It has to be the library card. If the "roll call" was initiated by Sorrels then it would seem difficult for Oswald to have been checked at the TSBD door so late. If the list was typed about 3pm Oswald might be at the top because he was already in custody......using the address on that card (almost). Fritz had the Beckely and Irving addresses by the first interrogation. Seems no one told the list typer.

Colin,


Oswald himself stated he was stopped at the front door by a cop and asked to stand aside till they got to him. Sonds like after that, he was vouched for by whomever, flashed his library card for the cop to jot down name and address and off he went. I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

Was Lee outside or inside Greg?
Since we don't see LHO in any images from the entrace it is assumed he was inside.
Is there a specific reference to Lee leaving the buildings interior, and by which door?

Others outside had to wait to get jackets and items from inside, and be escorted into the TSBD.
Were their names taken down before being allowed to enter?

I'm trying to get the full picture.
May 2, 2015 at 12:05 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

Terry Martin at April 30, 2015 at 12:50 PM

Ed Ledoux at April 30, 2015 at 11:58 AM

Interesting Bart!

I was thinking of Ruth and Marina and the shopping they were to do, buying shoes, etc.
Now could Lee have called at lunch and talked to Marina about going shopping.
Could Lee, after being released from the TSBD, have gone to see if he could find Ruth and Marina shopping in Oak Cliff at the shoe stores?
Not finding them he takes in a movie, waiting till later or the regular time to head home.
Just spit balling an idea.

Ed, another spit ball right back at ya:



That reminds me of something Greg (??) mentioned in another thread that Lee might have known to get in touch with a guy at a shoe store and wound up going to Brewer's next door to Texas Theater when he really should have been going to one a little further down the block.



And perhaps that's why he kept hinting to Marina about the shoes.



Hey if the shoe fits....

Nicely played Terry!

May 2, 2015 at 12:07 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Ed Ledoux
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Posts: 1106

Greg at April 30, 2015 at 6:34 PM

Beowulf at April 30, 2015 at 9:36 AM

I agree with Colin here. The address is from finding the library card in Oswald's wallet after his arrest. Since this memo was typed at the station after LHO was already in custody, being first on the typed list doesn't mean he was the first person to show cops his ID to a cop at TSBD door. It simply means that by then he was already the prime suspect so naturally his info is front and center. If Frazier can be believed that Oswald left by the back door, it does changes things. Assuming there was no Oswald/Baker encounter at the front door (or as you speculate, Oswald was later checked out by a second cop), maybe LHO ran into a cop at the back door and was vouched for by Shelley. Likewise the encounter with the man (a reporter?) Oswald thought a Secret Service agent asking for a phone could have taken place behind TSBD as well. Dallas Police Sgt Harkness was back there AND he did report the presence of Secret Service agents (who were, of course, fake). Oswald was pretty savvy about law enforcement. I've always been skeptical that he'd confuse a reporter's press badge with a federal agent's commission book.

The address is from finding the library card in Oswald's wallet after his arrest.

I'd buy that except for two things: there is no indication anyone was ever dispatched to that address and; the name written as it was strongly suggests it was observed upside down. I can't see someone writing or typing it that way if they had possession of the card in hand. The fact that Revill claimed it came from one of the arresing officers sounds like an assumption at best, CYA at worst - and is denied in any case by the officers in the arrest.

May 2, 2015 at 1:32 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

Barto at May 1, 2015 at 5:55 PM

This is the same list with different markings.


Thanks Bart,
That may be a finalized 'list' and/or a working copy is the one I posted.
It seems obvious there were copies of the list and those were marked by different officers at different times as these parties went to contact them.
Perhaps the list was broken down so investigators could go to a group of related adddresses in an area and make contact with these witnesses.
Then relay that info to headquarters and a running account of whom was still to be contacted would be made.
Cheers!!


May 2, 2015 at 1:48 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

Ed Ledoux at May 2, 2015 at 1:32 AM

Greg at April 30, 2015 at 6:34 PM

Beowulf at April 30, 2015 at 9:36 AM

I agree with Colin here. The address is from finding the library card in Oswald's wallet after his arrest. Since this memo was typed at the station after LHO was already in custody, being first on the typed list doesn't mean he was the first person to show cops his ID to a cop at TSBD door. It simply means that by then he was already the prime suspect so naturally his info is front and center. If Frazier can be believed that Oswald left by the back door, it does changes things. Assuming there was no Oswald/Baker encounter at the front door (or as you speculate, Oswald was later checked out by a second cop), maybe LHO ran into a cop at the back door and was vouched for by Shelley. Likewise the encounter with the man (a reporter?) Oswald thought a Secret Service agent asking for a phone could have taken place behind TSBD as well. Dallas Police Sgt Harkness was back there AND he did report the presence of Secret Service agents (who were, of course, fake). Oswald was pretty savvy about law enforcement. I've always been skeptical that he'd confuse a reporter's press badge with a federal agent's commission book.

The address is from finding the library card in Oswald's wallet after his arrest.

I'd buy that except for two things: there is no indication anyone was ever dispatched to that address and; the name written as it was strongly suggests it was observed upside down. I can't see someone writing or typing it that way if they had possession of the card in hand. The fact that Revill claimed it came from one of the arresing officers sounds like an assumption at best, CYA at worst - and is denied in any case by the officers in the arrest.

Hmmm it posted without my post...

Here is what I was aiming at.... DPD did not check that address but Aynesworth did.

Aynesworth said he heard about two addresses in Oswalds wallet, one the Elsbeth which he said he visited. He claims he went to the apartment where someone else was living, a drunk and a whore, ...and I was wondering how did Hugh get the apartment number from the address of 605 Elsbeth? Wouldn't he contact the manager after this and be told LHO did not live here.


http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/A%20Disk/Aynesworth%20Hugh/Item%2015.pdf
Banana peel my arse...what happened to Hugh's claim of the peel and the "mexican ashtray" or did he throw that in after learing about Mexico City and was trying to help out?
Did Crafard smoke?

From Beckley Back Alley thread, seems appropriate to repost here,
http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13143758-beckley-back-alley-

Hugh Aynesworth recalls,

I rode back to the office with a radio newsman and briefed the desk on what had taken place and what I had seen. Ewell went back to the station and was trying to find out the suspect's address so we could get in his home to see what of interest might be found there.

The first address we got was on old one --- where Oswald and his wife and small child lived more than a year before, shortly after their return from Russia. That was on Elsbeth Street.

What was the address 605, or 602?

Two little old ladies lived there when I went scrambling up to the door to ask if Lee Harvey Oswald lived here. They seemed afraid. I imagine that my face must have shown some of the incredulous things I had seen that day. I explained my purpose there. Sounds like 605

They invited me in to use the phone and I called the office and then Ewell again at City Hall. No later address.

"I'll bet he was that one with the wife that didn't speak English and used to hang clothes out there," said one of the women, pointing toward the rear of house.

I thanked them and ran like mad toward the other apartment. Okay a small side street apartment, was that 602 Elsbeth or another apartment you could see from Elsbeth apartments? Neely back yard is not exactly visible but is near enough to account for the clothes hanging info. Perhaps the alley was used that ran from Neely to the back of Elsbeth and off street parking. So anyone living at Elsbeth and parking in the rear would use that alley way next to the Neely apartment.

"Don't answer it," I heard a voice rasp in reply to the hurried knock.

I thought, "Boy, you've got it. Some of his accomplices are there!"

I kept knocking and I heard argument in undertones in the small side street apartment. Finally, a half-clad woman, obviously drunken, for we could smell the wine, peered out.

"What do you want?" she asked. "C'mer," shouted the male voice as he fell over a table, chair or something getting up.

I asked for Lee Harvey Oswald, if they knew him, if he lived here. A grunt or two and the door slammed.

I felt that with millions of people wanting to know who, what, how and why about this murderer, here were two people so oblivious to everything that they wanted only to be back in each other's arms. No accomplices these!

I combed every house within two blocks --- still hoping I could get there first to ransack what must have been a madman's room.
Why does Hugh think he will beat the cops to this apartment if he gets the addresses from Ewell via DPD, does that make sense?

Finally two hours and two tired feet later I returned to The News office. Ewell came up with another address, 1026 N. Beckley.

Why the two hour delay, were not these two addresses in the wallet as Hugh claimed above, if so why the wait for the second address?


602-604 Elsbeth and the rear entryways


Side entryway.




Why not ask Harry Holmes where LHO lived?



Cheers!
May 2, 2015 at 2:39 AM

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

Ed Ledoux at May 2, 2015 at 12:05 AM

Greg at April 30, 2015 at 12:38 AM

Colin Crow at April 30, 2015 at 12:06 AM

It has to be the library card. If the "roll call" was initiated by Sorrels then it would seem difficult for Oswald to have been checked at the TSBD door so late. If the list was typed about 3pm Oswald might be at the top because he was already in custody......using the address on that card (almost). Fritz had the Beckely and Irving addresses by the first interrogation. Seems no one told the list typer.

Colin,


Oswald himself stated he was stopped at the front door by a cop and asked to stand aside till they got to him. Sonds like after that, he was vouched for by whomever, flashed his library card for the cop to jot down name and address and off he went. I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

Was Lee outside or inside Greg?
Since we don't see LHO in any images from the entrace it is assumed he was inside.
Is there a specific reference to Lee leaving the buildings interior, and by which door?

Others outside had to wait to get jackets and items from inside, and be escorted into the TSBD.
Were their names taken down before being allowed to enter?

I'm trying to get the full picture.

Ed, I don't think he was outside for very long.


It's possible he ducked out quickly to watch or take a few happy snaps, then went back inside after the shots. I think he may have been unsure of what to do next... go back to work, or...? He is then spotted by Truly by the store-room possibly contemplating what one is supposed to do after an assassination (no Wes, I don't think skulking off to the basement to eat lunch is the corrrect answer). There is evidence that some of the others were suggesting there'd be no more work that day and other evidence saying he was stopped from leaving via the front door. I don't think it's a big jump to say he overheard the talk and, deciding it was probably right, tried to vacate. It was there that he was stopped and asked to step aside while they get his details. He then flashes his library card (upside down), the cop notes the details (incorrectly) and then Lo Wes is by his side suggesting they go catch a movie. They then both leave by the side bay area. Wes drops him off outside the TTwhile he finds a park... it's about one-ish... Lee hasn't gone anywhere near the shore store - nor has anyone else...Lee may not have even mentioned anything about new shoes for anyone. It's just to bolster the Brewer stroty. But the fact is Brewer is simply signalled that Lee is now inside the movie house and that's the trigger... to "follow" and ring the cops.


Is it illegal to take a camera into a movie house? Copyright issues and all...?


All he would admit doing wrong was having a camera pistol in the theater.... and punching a cop in self-defence trying to resist arrest.


It was VERY important to get him inside that theater. There was a script being followed. - "based on a true story".
--

I'm just one of the Dregs of Society from South Bunyip Valley Heights


In an expanding universe, time is on the side of the outcast. Those who once

inhabited the suburbs of human contempt find that without changing their

address they eventually live in the metropolis. Quentin Crisp


http://gregparke4.wix.com/gregrparker


They put Johnny and Bobby in the ground

Then the place was run by shucks and clowns

Motherfuckers are still thick on the ground

Coz there’s a new God – There’s a new God in town.

Steve Schwartz & the Strap-Ons


May 2, 2015 at 2:47 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

Ed, we all know Aynsworth is full of shit. That's why the story makes no sense. The bullshit parts are easy to pick (and you didn't miss any of them). e.g. He saw or heard about 2 address from Ewell and checks out the first only. BULLSHIT. He checked out the one only BECAUSE THAT'S THE ONLY ONE HE KNEW ABOUT - at that time! In short, he was trying to cover up the real source of the 605 Elsbeth address - and the wrong number gives it away. He got it off the damn cop list from the TSBD. But by the time he is telling this story, he knows he cannot say that.
--

I'm just one of the Dregs of Society from South Bunyip Valley Heights


In an expanding universe, time is on the side of the outcast. Those who once

inhabited the suburbs of human contempt find that without changing their

address they eventually live in the metropolis. Quentin Crisp


http://gregparke4.wix.com/gregrparker


They put Johnny and Bobby in the ground

Then the place was run by shucks and clowns

Motherfuckers are still thick on the ground

Coz there’s a new God – There’s a new God in town.

Steve Schwartz & the Strap-Ons


May 2, 2015 at 3:29 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Barto
Moderator
Posts: 1915

This ABC vid is interesting, 0:50 in it shows footage of teh cops arriving at the TSBD and also pushing people away from the entrance.

I see Bonnie Ray and Co. being marched off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBK_XGF5VdI

Pity the quality is so bad.
--

_________________________________________________________________________________

Prayer Man The Movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0B8JhOe3KU

Prayer Man website: http://www.prayer-man.com/

Prayer Man on Twitter: https://twitter.com/PMisLeeOswald


May 2, 2015 at 9:45 AM

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

Yes bad quality even at 480p it looks like the number on the DPD car that leaves at the 2:10 mark has been messed with. When the best frame is shown and the Dallas Police on the door can be read but the car number is blotted out. IMO.


There is evidence that some of the others were suggesting there'd be no more work that day and other evidence saying he was stopped from leaving via the front door. I don't think it's a big jump to say he overheard the talk and, deciding it was probably right, tried to vacate. It was there that he was stopped and asked to step aside while they get his details. He then flashes his library card (upside down), the cop notes the details (incorrectly)

I can see that happening. But if the claims are that LHO showed Allman etc the phones it means they entered without being stopped. That would also mean Lee could exit without being stopped. Yes? If not why?
Only the reporters whom ducked in with SS or got in with DPD escorts remained inside after the front and rear were sealed off. Or that is what we are led to believe from those newsmens accounts. Covering for their friends with badges?


Is it illegal to take a camera into a movie house? Copyright issues and all...?
No but the flash would piss off other movie patrons. just kiddin.
In '63 you could be prosecuted for such VOIO's. You are stealing if you intend to sell it. Could LHO have been on assignment checking theaters for Oak Cliff movie pirates? Doubtful.
its my opinion that as long as you don't try to sell or use the recording for commercial purposes it is your right to record copyrighted material, in fact many courts have agreed and thus the VCR came with a 'home" license fee built into its price tag and so did the blank tapes, as they knew you would copy movies. I say unless the ticket you buy at the box office specifically states you can not record the 'event' or screening you are by default allowing such. I copy all the recorded material I buy and put the original away. I then use the VHS-DVD-Electronic or Blu-Ray copy and wear it out. I can even download the same movie, game or program from any source as many times as I feel like as I have already paid the royalty when I bought the original. So I have and will always keep all my old LP's, 8 tracks, VHS tapes, games, computer programs and so on. Why? So I can legally download or get a copy from anywhere I choose and don't have to pay for the upgraded format. That is my right. Pirate Bay is legal when you are simply downloading an electronic copy of a work you already own.
I used to sell old records that were from the twenties and thirties, rare ones but in horrible gastly condition.
They all sold for good money. Why? Because the buyers would then have rights and could "steal" or copy a quality clean version and use it for their own purposes. Funny what you learn selling crap.
The argument was always from the music industry that you should not be allowed to copy music.
I find nothing special or different about the musicians or musical recordings than a written work.
I can walk into any library, get a free library card, and walk to any shelf, grab any book and guess what they have right there next to the shelves....a copier. I can copy as many pages or whole books as I want (at a nickle a page) and walk out scot free with my stolen book! So how is the writer any less or the musician and better than the writer or those copyrights? There is no difference except the music executives want you to buy a fresh CD every time yours gets scratched, nay nay, noo noo, I will not accept their claim and neither does the SCOTUS.
So was Lee expressing his rights and Nick McDick stopped him claiming copyright infringement and a scuffle over the camera broke out? Maybe that is why they were so hot to find Lee Oswald, he had film of the Big Event?

The history of movie piracy started long before the age of the internet. During the silent film period, a form of film larceny called “bicycling” became popular. To illustrate, exhibitors who had legitimately rented a film would screen the motion picture for an extended period of time after the agreed duration, or illegally screen the film in other theaters they own. As a deterrent, Hollywood hired checkers to identify exhibitors who committed unauthorized and unpaid film screenings.

1910

By 1910, piracy developed into the process of duping or using positive prints in making new negatives to reproduce an unlimited number of duped prints. As a restraint, film companies would often buy ad space in newspapers to publicly warn, criticize, and shame dupers.

1960s

By the 1960s, bootleg cam recording known as cam rips became the new form of unlicensed film recording. Audio quality from these copies was typically poor as the audience noises were also included in the recording. To solve this problem, pirates started synchronizing their cam rips with a second audio recording, directly captured from sound systems and from radio transmissions. They were called as VOIOs (Video of Indeterminate Origin).


we all know Aynsworth is full of shit. That's why the story makes no sense. The bullshit parts are easy to pick (and you didn't miss any of them). e.g. He saw or heard about 2 address from Ewell and checks out the first only. BULLSHIT. He checked out the one only BECAUSE THAT'S THE ONLY ONE HE KNEW ABOUT - at that time! In short, he was trying to cover up the real source of the 605 Elsbeth address - and the wrong number gives it away. He got it off the damn cop list from the TSBD. But by the time he is telling this story, he knows he cannot say that.

You get it Greg!
And yes when Aynesworth speaks he leaves a trail of feces, which he uses to find his way back to reality.
Hugh still gives us clues and we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water, at least till we check those out.
Again he doesn't inform his loyal Texan readers how or where he gets Apt 2 from....because he didn't, and yes all he had was the wrong address from the Roll Call list at DPD. Bingo!

Cheerio!
May 2, 2015 at 11:26 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Mick Purdy
Moderator
Posts: 1403

Greg at May 2, 2015 at 2:47 AM

Ed Ledoux at May 2, 2015 at 12:05 AM

Greg at April 30, 2015 at 12:38 AM

Colin Crow at April 30, 2015 at 12:06 AM

It has to be the library card. If the "roll call" was initiated by Sorrels then it would seem difficult for Oswald to have been checked at the TSBD door so late. If the list was typed about 3pm Oswald might be at the top because he was already in custody......using the address on that card (almost). Fritz had the Beckely and Irving addresses by the first interrogation. Seems no one told the list typer.

Colin,


Oswald himself stated he was stopped at the front door by a cop and asked to stand aside till they got to him. Sonds like after that, he was vouched for by whomever, flashed his library card for the cop to jot down name and address and off he went. I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

Was Lee outside or inside Greg?
Since we don't see LHO in any images from the entrace it is assumed he was inside.
Is there a specific reference to Lee leaving the buildings interior, and by which door?

Others outside had to wait to get jackets and items from inside, and be escorted into the TSBD.
Were their names taken down before being allowed to enter?

I'm trying to get the full picture.

Ed, I don't think he was outside for very long.


It's possible he ducked out quickly to watch or take a few happy snaps, then went back inside after the shots. I think he may have been unsure of what to do next... go back to work, or...? He is then spotted by Truly by the store-room possibly contemplating what one is supposed to do after an assassination (no Wes, I don't think skulking off to the basement to eat lunch is the corrrect answer). There is evidence that some of the others were suggesting there'd be no more work that day and other evidence saying he was stopped from leaving via the front door. I don't think it's a big jump to say he overheard the talk and, deciding it was probably right, tried to vacate. It was there that he was stopped and asked to step aside while they get his details. He then flashes his library card (upside down), the cop notes the details (incorrectly) and then Lo Wes is by his side suggesting they go catch a movie. They then both leave by the side bay area. Wes drops him off outside the TTwhile he finds a park... it's about one-ish... Lee hasn't gone anywhere near the shore store - nor has anyone else...Lee may not have even mentioned anything about new shoes for anyone. It's just to bolster the Brewer stroty. But the fact is Brewer is simply signalled that Lee is now inside the movie house and that's the trigger... to "follow" and ring the cops.


Is it illegal to take a camera into a movie house? Copyright issues and all...?


All he would admit doing wrong was having a camera pistol in the theater.... and punching a cop in self-defence trying to resist arrest.


It was VERY important to get him inside that theater. There was a script being followed. - "based on a true story".

Greg you sure he "Ducked" he could've just "popped" or even "stepped"......
May 3, 2015 at 11:27 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Greg
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Greg you sure he "Ducked" he could've just "popped" or even "stepped"......


He was a ducker from way back - everyone says so.
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They put Johnny and Bobby in the ground

Then the place was run by shucks and clowns

Motherfuckers are still thick on the ground

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May 3, 2015 at 11:43 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Ed Ledoux
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Slumping was out of the question!
May 4, 2015 at 5:50 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Barto
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Roll Call article and ref. to Mark Lanes RTJ and footnotes about it.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/J%20Disk/JFK%20Honor%20Guard/Item%2006.pdf

__________________________________________________________________________________________


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May 16, 2015 at 4:42 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Greg
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bump


--

I'm just one of the Dregs of Society from South Bunyip Valley Heights


In an expanding universe, time is on the side of the outcast. Those who once

inhabited the suburbs of human contempt find that without changing their

address they eventually live in the metropolis. Quentin Crisp


http://gregparke4.wix.com/gregrparker


They put Johnny and Bobby in the ground

Then the place was run by shucks and clowns

Motherfuckers are still thick on the ground

Coz there’s a new God – There’s a new God in town.

Steve Schwartz & the Strap-Ons


June 28, 2015 at 6:27 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Barto
Moderator
Posts: 1915

Not sure if it has been posted already, here's an old article in DPUK Echo Mag.

The Myth of the Depository Roll Call, by Mark Bridger

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=118224#relPageId=41
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June 28, 2015 at 9:51 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Barto
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According to Weisberg's archive the roll call sheet was released in 1992

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/Dallas%20Police%20Department/Dallas%20Police%20Department%20Disclosures%201992/Item%2001.pdf
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August 10, 2015 at 8:30 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Ed Ledoux
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Posts: 1106

Barto at June 28, 2015 at 9:51 AM

Not sure if it has been posted already, here's an old article in DPUK Echo Mag.

The Myth of the Depository Roll Call, by Mark Bridger

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=118224#relPageId=41



I agree that either Truly or Shelley were not being truthful. I wish he would have included the next step after "Truly also asked Campbell..."
Campbell claimed that Oswald was in the first floor storage room, but did he, OVC, get that info from the Truly which Kent Biffle overhears or directly from OV Campbell?



Seems Kent is quoting OVC, then Truly. The 'in the strorage room' part would seem to be coming from Truly?

This talks about OVC possibly overhearing Brennan speaking to a DPD officer.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57741&relPageId=41&search=ochus_campbell



OCHUS V. CAMPBELL, 7120 Twin Lakes Lane, Dallas, Texas, furnished the following information:

He is the Vice President of the Texas School Book Depository Company, with offices located on the second floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building in Dallas.

On November 22, 1963, he was present at his office at the above named building and at about 12:30 PM on that day, he and several other associates were together stationed about 30 feet in front of this building facing away from the building observing the passing motorcade containing President KENNEDY. At this time, he heard a loud report, which at first he considered to be a fire cracker or some object set off by a crank and believed the noise came from away from his building. This illusion, he explained, may have been due to the sound bouncing off the building and other objects in the vicinity. After hearing two more such reports, he realized they must have been rifle shots and since President KENNEDY's car had advanced just out of his vision, he went forward a few feet to observe this automobile, inasmuch as he feared that the rifle shots were in connection with an attempt upon President KENNEDY's life. He then observed the car bearing President KENNEDY to slow down, a near stop, and a motorcycle policeman rushed up. Immediately following this, he observed the car rush away from the scene. He then immediately rushed into his building without having seen anything unusual from any window of his building. Inside he was told shortly thereafter by the warehouse superintendent, Mr. TRULY, that all the employees of the company had been rounded up and one employee, LEE HARVEY OSWALD, was missing.

Mr. CAMPBELL observed a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, bearing New Orleans, Louisiana No. 112 723, and stated that he is sure this is a photograph of the employee named above, but added that he is not personally aquainted with him and has never seen him. He advised that he has always given Mr. TRULY the responsibility for hiring employees for the warehouse.

on 11/24/63 at Dallas, Texas File # DL 89-43 By Special Agent EDWARD C. HARDIL & PAUL L. SCOTT Date Dictated 11/24/63

But OVC said he went to the Grassy Knoll for a while, did he really see Baker rush up? If so did he not chase Truly Baker in? Why the mention of heading to the knoll? A contradiction exists. OVC is saying he looked up at the windows from outside and sees nothing.

.. Ochus V. Campbell, vice-president of the Texas School Book Depository Building ... was watching when President Kennedy

was killed. We know he ran toward the grassy knoll afterward. The Dallas Times Herald, 11/22/63 quotes him as saying he raced

back into the building and saw Oswald in a small storage mom on the ground floor. But he prepared no affidavit, gave no

deposition, and was never interrogated by the Commission as far as the record shows. ... The Minority of One, Fifty-one

Witnesses: The Grassy Knoll, Harold Feldman, p. 16


DPD affidavit,

"A uniform officer came up and at the same time a construction worker with a

helmet came across the street and said he had seen a rifle in the 6th floor

window. I walked back in the building. Mr Truly and the officer had already

gone in and up the stairs. I waited until they came back down to see if they

found anything. The employees were standing around. When Mr truly came down he

said one of the employees was missing, a man named Oswald. I did not know

Oswald. I told Mr Truly to tell the officers about him and what he looked

like. I went back to my office and an FBI agent came in and introduced

himself. I don't remember his name. He asked that I have all the employees

vacate the building. This I did, telling them to take the rest of the day off.

I remained in my office until about 2:30 or 3:00pm. Then I left. The officers

were still searching the building when I left."


So how could a 'racing back in' OV Campbell not see, or have missed Oswald. He claims he never saw him and did not know what he looked like anyway.

New York Heald Tribune,

"Shortly after the shooting we raced back into the building. We had been

outside watching the parade. We saw him (Oswald) in a small storage room on

the ground floor. Then we noticed he was gone." Mr Campbell added: "Of course

he and the others were on their lunch hour but he did not have permission to

leave the building and we haven't seen him since."

New York Heald Tribune 23nov63

Ye Old Thread,
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t195-campbell-truly-15-minutes-of-infamy


What to make of Campbell and his claims?


Did OVC get hitched in '84?

http://www.mocavo.co.uk/Ochus-Campbell-Mary-Kupstis-Texas-Marriage-Record-Index-1966-2008/07671347973709330308


August 11, 2015 at 12:36 PM

Barto
Moderator
Posts: 1915

Here is an email from 2004, discussing the roll call

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/files/employes.txt


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August 14, 2015 at 8:11 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Ed Ledoux
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Yeah Martha and Barb were sniffing through the smoke, good find all around, :-)


August 15, 2015 at 1:36 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Barto
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Posts: 1915

Ruth Hendrix in No More Silence by Larry Sneed, page 76

A while later we were called in, 3 or 4 at a time, and our names and addresses were taken. I don't recall an actual line-up. I guess they did for the Depository People, but I worked for one of the publishers.

There was a lot of difference between working for the Depository and the publishers. The Depository didn't have any authority over any of us.

___________________________________________________________________________________


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October 28, 2015 at 6:25 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Ed Ledoux
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Called in 3 or 4 at a time?
Called Into where?
Into a room or into the building?
Where was the Publisher Roll Call held??


November 21, 2015 at 6:50 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Ed Ledoux
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Posts: 1106

Funny the DPD shows Ochus this pic and he distances himself from Oswald.... wonder why?


November 21, 2015 at 7:01 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Terry Martin
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Posts: 1143

Ed, the picture isn't showing...
November 21, 2015 at 9:13 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Barto
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Posts: 1915

The second Hosty became part of the interrogations he spilled the beans to FRitz and co about the defection and so so on, the sign that he was thrown under a bus and everyone started to distance themselves from Oswald.

One thinks the fact that Oswald was there for just a month it was easy to distance themselves from him but Molina had been working there for 16 years and the second Curry quacked about him being a subversive his arse was on his way out, due to automation and be it with a generaous severance package.
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November 21, 2015 at 2:00 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Ed Ledoux
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Posts: 1106

Awesome Bart!

Terry, image showed up for me.


Truly calls other warehouse and gets Irving address not Elsbeth.
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=41#relPageId=392

Truly claims his boy is missing, this after a cop supposedly shoves gun in his stomach, and there is supposedly a sniper in the building.
Would you stay in the building???? Not bloody likely.
And why would Truly think this odd?
I mean no sniper had yet been found, building had not been completely searched, mad man could still be hiding up stairs.
But Truly expects the guy whom was practically acosted by a police officer to be hanging around for the shootout?
That's if you believe the second floor lunch room or back stairway encounter were of Oswald, or that is where the Oswald encounter took place.
I do not believe that, I think he was stopped at the front entrance gave his only ID and that was his library car with the Elsbeth address on it which was recorded as the first person let go......run rabbit ruunnnnnnnn
November 22, 2015 at 8:07 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Terry Martin
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Posts: 1143

Ed, pic shows up for me now too. Thanks!


All the shenanigans about who left the building and when, who was actually missing (there was more than just Ozzie), the police list... it was all for the patsification of Oswald.


Now, exactly what was Truly up to? He's the shadiest character in the bunch.
November 22, 2015 at 8:41 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Jake
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Posts: 402

Terry Martin at November 22, 2015 at 8:41 AM

Ed, pic shows up for me now too. Thanks!


All the shenanigans about who left the building and when, who was actually missing (there was more than just Ozzie), the police list... it was all for the patsification of Oswald.


Now, exactly what was Truly up to? He's the shadiest character in the bunch.

"Now, exactly what was Truly up to?"


He's the guy who chases Baker into the building and places himself between the armed cop and a potential shooter as they run up the stairs. Protecting the cop? Protecting the shooter? Both?


Ding ding. Sixth Floor please. Departments on the Sixth Floor include sporting goods, fiction, and new flooring. Here is your sales executive Roy Truly to guide you through.


Not only does he give Baker a tour of the TSBD, he spearheads the real time search for the assassin(s). Something just isn't right in the common sense department here, or the truth department either for that matter.
November 22, 2015 at 10:36 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Terry Martin
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Posts: 1143

And today all we got is the Sixth Floor Nauseum.
November 22, 2015 at 11:24 AM

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

Roy Truly needs to obfuscate the ceiling height and back steps by saying the steps were few in number,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1diTL4bxQig


Fewer stair steps in reality mean steeper stairways and more difficult to use to descend.
And would not that also mean Truly /Baker got to the second floor quicker as the stairs are few....

Sure licks his lips a lot during that short interview. Nervous and perhaps indicative of lying by Mr Truly.

Plus when Baker mentions only the service elevator, not the passenger elevator I have to chuckle.

The Stairs:

The Texas School Book Depository still has one original staircase in place going from the sixth to the seventh floor. Since access is restricted by Plexiglas, The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza's curator Gary Mack entered this area to take measurements. Additionally, a review of the old floor plans showed the staircases were identical for each floor. The stair height was 7 inches and the number of stairs totaled 64. So 7 x 64 equaled 448 vertical inches. The loft had stairs 6 inches in height and there were 75 of them. This gave us 450 vertical inches. We also added two inches to get down the step to the lunchroom mockup. Therefore a 4 inch vertical gain was built into the test. The 11 inch stair depth was identical in both the Texas School Book Depository and S. Ervay locations. However, the warehouse stairs were 11 inches narrower in width making it more difficult for the test subjects to get down.~ http://dperry1943.com/unsolved.html

So five flights of stairs divided into the number of inches (or 37.333333 feet) = 7.2 feet for ceiling height?

Does this seem right? If Gary had the floor plans why not share them rather than solely go on a stairway remnant measurement that seems off by two three feet.

Macks Math,
Here we see Mack gives us 448 vertical inches
This is 37.3333333 feet. for the first height.
But this is for FOUR floors, or the difference between 6th floor and 2nd floor lunch room!
So each floor is nearly 10 foot high as it should be.

Height can be seen in Alyea as they needed to crawl up on boxes to search near the ceiling of Sixth Floor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94APWcGDMyY

Gary Mack was also involved in this


Each flight has 9 steps, 9x7 = 63" or 5'.25" X 2 And we get 10.5 feet per floor which when watching the video of the reenactment seems more like the actual height in the video at 23:28
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUtJos-wZXI


If 9 steps, which is 18 per floor x 4 is 72 steps not Macks claim of 64 steps...I did not even include the landing between them, just "steps".
Even if only 8 steps are in that picture it makes 64 steps and still no landings included. (4)
Is that the Mack minimize it game

Again does not this mean Truly/Baker reached the Second Floor even quicker?
They only had one flight to climb, and the shorter Mack or Truly makes these flights the easier it is to beat a "fleeing" suspect up to the door of one measly flight as opposed to down four in a self closing door and into a lunchroom maybe purchased a soda and sitting down drinking it!!!!

This shows that Truly is being deceptive about even basic facts and trying to paint a false picture of the TSBD and his actions. (Mack too)

Perhaps its that building, the building itself, and being in it, it makes liars out of men.
November 23, 2015 at 1:43 AM

Stan Dane
Moderator
Posts: 1239

Does this seem right? If Gary had the floor plans why not share them rather than solely go on a stairway remnant measurement that seems off by two three feet.



He was too busy Macking off.




November 23, 2015 at 2:34 AM
Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106


November 23, 2015 at 6:13 AM

Barto
Moderator
Posts: 1915

That Alyea film is staged, just look at the near end how he does two different angled shots of Day grabbing the rifle and handing it to Fritz
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November 23, 2015 at 8:48 AM
Barto
Moderator
Posts: 1915

Why is Mrs R Reid mentioned 2x???


Page 1 4th typed name from the bottom

Page 2 12th name from the top




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January 27, 2016 at 5:21 AM

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

Listed under Mris Robert A Reid and Mrs RA Reid indicates she was stopped/questioned twice in the building. Did she maybe get back in after being let out? The second cop taking her details wouldn't necessary scan the names taken so far and realize Mrs Robert A Reid and Mrs RA Reid were one and the same.
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In an expanding universe, time is on the side of the outcast. Those who once

inhabited the suburbs of human contempt find that without changing their

address they eventually live in the metropolis. Quentin Crisp


http://gregparke4.wix.com/gregrparker


They put Johnny and Bobby in the ground

Then the place was run by shucks and clowns

Motherfuckers are still thick on the ground

Coz there’s a new God – There’s a new God in town.

Steve Schwartz & the Strap-Ons


January 27, 2016 at 4:31 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Mick Purdy
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Posts: 1403

Barto at November 23, 2015 at 8:48 AM

That Alyea film is staged, just look at the near end how he does two different angled shots of Day grabbing the rifle and handing it to Fritz

Yes Barto, agreed.

Liberties were taken and abused that day. How dare they mock the retrieval of the alleged murder weapon.

It was common practice to do things more than once when filming sequences for news to get a different angle.

That these police officers agreed to do this is weird beyond the scope of my tiny brain.
January 27, 2016 at 4:45 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Barto
Moderator
Posts: 1915

On pg. 68 of Lane's RUSH TO JUDGEMENT:

' He was the only one who didn't show

up [roll call] and couldn't be accounted for' [DPD

Captain] Gannaway said.

This attempt to explain why Oswald was

wanted implies both that there was a

comprehensive roll call in the building &

that Oswald was the only person

unaccounted for just after 12:30 pm. In the

first place, there was no such roll call, & in

the 2nd place, Oswald was not the only

employee absent from the building after the

ass'n. Out of a total of 75 persons employed

in the building, 48 were outside at 12:30

and 5 had not reported for work that day.

Others left the building almost immediately

after hearing the shots. Many employees

were not allowed to enter the building after

the ass'n and thus were absent when the

police search began. In fact, even among the

8 employees known to have been on the 6th

floor earlier that day, Oswald was 'not the

only one who didn't show up and couldn't be

accounted for.' "

Lane's footnotes concerning the above are:

Gannaway: XIX, 120

"roll call": Dallas Morning News, 11/23/63

Gannaway: ibid.

no roll call: WCR, 156, vn, 382

not only absent: Id.at 382, 385-

386,VI,321

75 employees: XXII, 632-686

48 outside: Ibid.

5 off' work: Id. at 632, 641, 666

others left: Id. at 632, 676

not allowed to enter: Id. at 636, 645,

655-656, 665

8 employees on 6th: III, 187, VII, 377

Oswald was not only: Id. at 321
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January 27, 2016 at 5:14 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Barto
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Posts: 1915

Greg at January 27, 2016 at 4:31 PM

Listed under Mris Robert A Reid and Mrs RA Reid indicates she was stopped/questioned twice in the building. Did she maybe get back in after being let out? The second cop taking her details wouldn't necessary scan the names taken so far and realize Mrs Robert A Reid and Mrs RA Reid were one and the same.

I have no idea Greg, but this list is wrong, very wrong.

If you look at the markings, this list shows they tried to contact people afterwards.

How the hell does Linnie Mae Randle get on there? And then stricken.

Those written names are added way later at the DPD!!!

Parker/Kounas and Rackley are mentioned as having left the building at 12:15 and returning at just before 3pm.

This list was assembled from written notes of some sort at DPD, the originals are nowhere to be seen of course.

This list is as fake as the buttons and the handbag of Prayer Woman...............


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January 27, 2016 at 5:22 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Barto
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Posts: 1915

This one is signed and has the additional 'found a jacket' bit underneath Kounas/Rackley.

WTF is going on here.....


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January 27, 2016 at 5:24 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Greg
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Posts: 2049

Barto at January 27, 2016 at 5:22 PM

Greg at January 27, 2016 at 4:31 PM

Listed under Mris Robert A Reid and Mrs RA Reid indicates she was stopped/questioned twice in the building. Did she maybe get back in after being let out? The second cop taking her details wouldn't necessary scan the names taken so far and realize Mrs Robert A Reid and Mrs RA Reid were one and the same.

I have no idea Greg, but this list is wrong, very wrong.

If you look at the markings, this list shows they tried to contact people afterwards.

How the hell does Linnie Mae Randle get on there? And then stricken.

Those written names are added way later at the DPD!!!

Parker/Kounas and Rackley are mentioned as having left the building at 12:15 and returning at just before 3pm.

This list was assembled from written notes of some sort at DPD, the originals are nowhere to be seen of course.

This list is as fake as the buttons and the handbag of Prayer Woman...............


Barto,


despite what people have assumed, it's not an employee list. It's a list of everyone inside that building at the time they started collecting names and adrresses. It includes for instance, two reporters.

Later they added employee absentees of which Linnie Mae was assumed to be one due to a miscommunication/misunderstanding between the managers of the Austin motel where Bill Randle was staying, the FBI and the DPD. The information that should have been conveyed was that Randle's wife's brother worked with Oswald... insstead, the message received bty DPD in this Chinese Whisper was that Randle's wife (Linnie Mae) worked with Oswald.

They did contact people later - those who had not given a same day statement, or that they wanted to talk to again.

The list isn't fake, but given the above, I can understand how it might give that impression.


--

I'm just one of the Dregs of Society from South Bunyip Valley Heights


In an expanding universe, time is on the side of the outcast. Those who once

inhabited the suburbs of human contempt find that without changing their

address they eventually live in the metropolis. Quentin Crisp


http://gregparke4.wix.com/gregrparker


They put Johnny and Bobby in the ground

Then the place was run by shucks and clowns

Motherfuckers are still thick on the ground

Coz there’s a new God – There’s a new God in town.

Steve Schwartz & the Strap-Ons


January 27, 2016 at 5:46 PM




Barto
Moderator
Posts: 1915

Greg at January 27, 2016 at 5:46 PM

Barto at January 27, 2016 at 5:22 PM

Greg at January 27, 2016 at 4:31 PM

Listed under Mris Robert A Reid and Mrs RA Reid indicates she was stopped/questioned twice in the building. Did she maybe get back in after being let out? The second cop taking her details wouldn't necessary scan the names taken so far and realize Mrs Robert A Reid and Mrs RA Reid were one and the same.

I have no idea Greg, but this list is wrong, very wrong.

If you look at the markings, this list shows they tried to contact people afterwards.

How the hell does Linnie Mae Randle get on there? And then stricken.

Those written names are added way later at the DPD!!!

Parker/Kounas and Rackley are mentioned as having left the building at 12:15 and returning at just before 3pm.

This list was assembled from written notes of some sort at DPD, the originals are nowhere to be seen of course.

This list is as fake as the buttons and the handbag of Prayer Woman...............


Barto,


despite what people have assumed, it's not an employee list. It's a list of everyone inside that building at the time they started collecting names and adrresses. It includes for instance, two reporters.

Later they added employee absentees of which Linnie Mae was assumed to be one due to a miscommunication/misunderstanding between the managers of the Austin motel where Bill Randle was staying, the FBI and the DPD. The information that should have been conveyed was that Randle's wife's brother worked with Oswald... insstead, the message received bty DPD in this Chinese Whisper was that Randle's wife (Linnie Mae) worked with Oswald.

They did contact people later - those who had not given a same day statement, or that they wanted to talk to again.

The list isn't fake, but given the above, I can understand how it might give that impression.


Greg I agree with them taking names inside the building, but the list got typed up and then Truly, Linnie Mae etc got added on later, and that did happen inside the DPD, it could not have been otherwise unles someone started typing away inside the TSBD and for that there is no evidence. the remark about the women being outside and having left at 12:15 and returning later, same thing.

Adding on the two versions.the signature and extra text added on, the jacket bit just doesn't make much sense does it. It is about the T. slaying....

And it's fake coz the roll call is fake, perhaps I should have made that more clear
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January 27, 2016 at 6:05 PM

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

Barto - yes the list got typed up later. Truly got added later cos he was "helping" the cops till late so didn't actually leave until after the cops had stopped taking names.


There was no roll call. I doubt there was even a head count.


They called it a roll call because it looks more sinister to be absent from such a thing...
--

I'm just one of the Dregs of Society from South Bunyip Valley Heights


In an expanding universe, time is on the side of the outcast. Those who once

inhabited the suburbs of human contempt find that without changing their

address they eventually live in the metropolis. Quentin Crisp


http://gregparke4.wix.com/gregrparker


They put Johnny and Bobby in the ground

Then the place was run by shucks and clowns

Motherfuckers are still thick on the ground

Coz there’s a new God – There’s a new God in town.

Steve Schwartz & the Strap-Ons


January 27, 2016 at 6:24 PM

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

I believe this goes to the lunchroom encounter and why it never happened.

Truly is saying he saw Givens walking across the street so his absence is excused,
but Truly had suposedly also just seen Lee in the lunchroom... or did he?
If Truly did not see Lee in the LR then it would more easily fit with his concern for a missing boy.
Thusly Truly does not see Lee in the lunchroom and then gives the Roll Call story.
And if they wanted all employees to line up then they would have used the PA system in the building to ask all employees report to first floor. Never happened.
The Elsbeth addy and the other details make for an sorted affair.


January 29, 2016 at 3:07 PM

Mick Purdy
Moderator
Posts: 1403

If Greg is right about Truly and I think he is, then Oswald never had a chance. He was going to be "missing" any which way. Thats why I still firmly hold onto the idea that BWF took him of site after the shots.

Couldn't have the missing boy still inside the building.

January 29, 2016 at 6:02 PM

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

Oswald never had a chance

The case in a nutshell.
--

I'm just one of the Dregs of Society from South Bunyip Valley Heights


In an expanding universe, time is on the side of the outcast. Those who once

inhabited the suburbs of human contempt find that without changing their

address they eventually live in the metropolis. Quentin Crisp


http://gregparke4.wix.com/gregrparker


They put Johnny and Bobby in the ground

Then the place was run by shucks and clowns

Motherfuckers are still thick on the ground

Coz there’s a new God – There’s a new God in town.

Steve Schwartz & the Strap-Ons


January 29, 2016 at 7:45 PM

Mick Purdy
Moderator
Posts: 1403

Greg at January 29, 2016 at 7:45 PM

Oswald never had a chance

The case in a nutshell.

Boom, Bam, Wham!


Dead right!!!!
January 29, 2016 at 7:48 PM

steely dan
Moderator
Posts: 1013

Seems like Shelly keeps an eye on LHO and Truly diverts the first responder.
January 29, 2016 at 8:06 PM

Mick Purdy
Moderator
Posts: 1403

steely dan at January 29, 2016 at 8:06 PM

Seems like Shelly keeps an eye on LHO and Truly diverts the first responder.

I like that Steely, I like that a lot.
January 29, 2016 at 9:54 PM

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

Someone had to know Lee was out of the building before they could claim he is "missing"

Shelley fits the bill
January 29, 2016 at 10:55 PM

Jake
Moderator
Posts: 402

Maybe Shelley nodded Oswald on out the door, the cop took his name and the patsey was dispatched to his next destination. Nothing left behind by Oswald (that we know of) but that pop bottle and the emulson on the film inside Darnell's movie camera.
January 29, 2016 at 11:24 PM

Mick Purdy
Moderator
Posts: 1403

Jake at January 29, 2016 at 11:24 PM

Maybe Shelley nodded Oswald on out the door, the cop took his name and the patsey was dispatched to his next destination. Nothing left behind by Oswald (that we know of) but that pop bottle and the emulson on the film inside Darnell's movie camera.

Love to also know what was in Wesley's car at around 4.00pm onward. You know, the stuff the cops saw when they searched his car and discovered nothing of importance.

My fat arse.
January 30, 2016 at 12:38 AM

Mick Purdy
Moderator
Posts: 1403

Ed Ledoux at January 29, 2016 at 10:55 PM

Someone had to know Lee was out of the building before they could claim he is "missing"

Shelley fits the bill

He does Ed, he does at that.

January 30, 2016 at 12:39 AM


Barto
Moderator
Posts: 1915

While reading up on Sorrells and Kelley in Vince Palamara's Survivor's Guilt, I read it was Forrest Sorrells who made Truly draw up an employee manifest only to discover that Oswald was the 'only' employee missing (page 305).
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February 5, 2016 at 4:51 AM

Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2049

Barto at February 5, 2016 at 4:51 AM

While reading up on Sorrells and Kelley in Vince Palamara's Survivor's Guilt, I read it was Forrest Sorrells who made Truly draw up an employee manifest only to discover that Oswald was the 'only' employee missing (page 305).

Barto,


here is Sorrels testimony on it:



Mr. STERN - Then you got inside the building and what did you do?

Mr. SORRELS - I asked for the manager, and I was directed to Mr. Truly. He was standing there.

I went up and identified myself to him. I said, "I want to get a stenographer, and we would like to have you put down the names and addresses of every employee of the building, in the building."

And I then walked on out the front door and asked, "Did anyone here see anything?"

And someone pointed to Mr. Brennan.

Mr. STERN - What was your purpose in asking for a list of the employees of the building?

Mr. SORRELS - Because I knew that they would have to be interviewed. I was trying to establish at that time without any delay, who all was in that building or was employed there, because I knew they would have to be talked to later.

In other words, I was looking for someone that saw something.

Mr. STERN - You were looking for potential witnesses?

Mr. SORRELS - Yes, sir.

He estimates he arrived about 20 minutes after the assassination and strolled in through the loading dock unquestioned.


Here is Truly's versoion:


And then you got down eventually to the first floor?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. About how long after these shots do you think it took you to go all the way up and look around the roof and come all the way down again?

Mr. TRULY. Oh, we might have been gone between 5 and 10 minutes. It is hard to say.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the first floor, or what did you see?

Mr. TRULY. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There was a regular madhouse.

Mr. BELIN. Had they sealed off the building yet, do you know?

Mr. TRULY. I am sure they had.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.


It is pretty evident that if Sorrells did ask for an "employee manifest", Truly did not do it. The cops were the one's taking names -- as you would expect. Those lists got typed up for Jack Revill.


Speaking of that list... there were only two people listed with police file numbers... Givens... and Ruth Dean.


--

I'm just one of the Dregs of Society from South Bunyip Valley Heights


In an expanding universe, time is on the side of the outcast. Those who once

inhabited the suburbs of human contempt find that without changing their

address they eventually live in the metropolis. Quentin Crisp


http://gregparke4.wix.com/gregrparker


They put Johnny and Bobby in the ground

Then the place was run by shucks and clowns

Motherfuckers are still thick on the ground

Coz there’s a new God – There’s a new God in town.

Steve Schwartz & the Strap-Ons


February 5, 2016 at 6:54 AM

Barto
Moderator
Posts: 1915

I agree Greg, the famous pic of Sorrels accompanying LBJ back to the car from Parkland (wearing a hat) contradicts his BS


--

_________________________________________________________________________________

Prayer Man The Movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0B8JhOe3KU

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Prayer Man on Twitter: https://twitter.com/PMisLeeOswald




February 5, 2016 at 3:02 PM

Mick Purdy
Moderator
Posts: 1403

Ed Ledoux at January 29, 2016 at 10:55 PM

Someone had to know Lee was out of the building before they could claim he is "missing"

Shelley fits the bill

Yes Ed,

I agree! Shelley certainly does fit.
February 5, 2016 at 5:37 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Mick Purdy
Moderator
Posts: 1403

Greg at February 5, 2016 at 6:54 AM

Barto at February 5, 2016 at 4:51 AM

While reading up on Sorrells and Kelley in Vince Palamara's Survivor's Guilt, I read it was Forrest Sorrells who made Truly draw up an employee manifest only to discover that Oswald was the 'only' employee missing (page 305).

Barto,


here is Sorrels testimony on it:



Mr. STERN - Then you got inside the building and what did you do?

Mr. SORRELS - I asked for the manager, and I was directed to Mr. Truly. He was standing there.

I went up and identified myself to him. I said, "I want to get a stenographer, and we would like to have you put down the names and addresses of every employee of the building, in the building."

And I then walked on out the front door and asked, "Did anyone here see anything?"

And someone pointed to Mr. Brennan.

Mr. STERN - What was your purpose in asking for a list of the employees of the building?

Mr. SORRELS - Because I knew that they would have to be interviewed. I was trying to establish at that time without any delay, who all was in that building or was employed there, because I knew they would have to be talked to later.

In other words, I was looking for someone that saw something.

Mr. STERN - You were looking for potential witnesses?

Mr. SORRELS - Yes, sir.

He estimates he arrived about 20 minutes after the assassination and strolled in through the loading dock unquestioned.


Here is Truly's versoion:


And then you got down eventually to the first floor?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. About how long after these shots do you think it took you to go all the way up and look around the roof and come all the way down again?

Mr. TRULY. Oh, we might have been gone between 5 and 10 minutes. It is hard to say.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the first floor, or what did you see?

Mr. TRULY. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There was a regular madhouse.

Mr. BELIN. Had they sealed off the building yet, do you know?

Mr. TRULY. I am sure they had.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.


It is pretty evident that if Sorrells did ask for an "employee manifest", Truly did not do it. The cops were the one's taking names -- as you would expect. Those lists got typed up for Jack Revill.


Speaking of that list... there were only two people listed with police file numbers... Givens... and Ruth Dean.


I went up and identified myself to him. I said, "I want to get a stenographer, and we would like to have you put down the names and addresses of every employee of the building, in the building."


Wow! I didn't think they had any stenographers in Dallas, certainly not for Oswald's interrogations.
February 5, 2016 at 5:41 PM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Barto
Moderator
Posts: 1915

Indeed.

Here is soemthing interesting Fritz said he was in the burea and have an APB sent out for Oswald when he was told he was sitting right there inside his office. According to Boyd's HSCA tetsimony they were still at the TSBD, even before Tippit was shot!


http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/HSCA-180-10112-10160.pdf
--

_________________________________________________________________________________

Prayer Man The Movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0B8JhOe3KU

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Prayer Man on Twitter: https://twitter.com/PMisLeeOswald




July 19, 2016 at 4:41 AM Edit Delete Flag Quote & Reply

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

Terry Martin at April 28, 2015 at 10:08 AM

Ed Ledoux at April 4, 2015 at 8:11 PM

So both Jarman (thanks Colin) and Frazier (Thanks Mick) were asked for ID.
And we all know LHO did not have proper ID but only mocked up cards for Alek Hidell
Yes this had to be a library card snafu, pretty sure the DPD cops were unfamiliar with books or libraries!

Wasn't the address correct on the Hidell card... or was that just a PO Box? Still it should have been better than the smudged address off a library card.



And I can just hear the officer now,

"What's this?"

Lee - "My library card."

Offcr - "Library? What the hell is that?"

Lee - "You know, the place where they have books for people to read."

Officer (stepping back and dropping his hand to the butt of his pistol) - "Son, I don't know where you're getting this drivel from. What are you, a communist or something?"







Interesting that Lee shows his Dallas Library card and there is later a raid of the library in Dallas, and specifically Oak Cliff, where Elsbeth is located... Coincidence of course!!
And the back of the library card,
https://goo.gl/images/r9VKI4

"Borrowers will please notify library of any changes of address..."
What Lillian Bradshaw had to say; . . Mrs . LILLIAN BRADSHAW, Director, Dallas Public Library, 1954 Commerce street, Dallas, Texas, furnished the following information.
A file of membership is not retained by the Dallas Public Library Systems therefore, she has no records pertaining to LEE HARVEY OSWALD . She further added that the only records maintained at the Library are keyed to delinquencies ; therefore, it would not be possible to determine a listing of the books read by OSWALD.
In this connection, microfilmed records are maintained on books charged out.
It would take a detailed review of over 2,600,000 such microfilmed records in order to establish the Identity of the books charged out by OSWALD .

Mrs . BRADSHAW made available two copies of a Dallas Public Library delinquency notice which reflects LEE HARVEY OSWALD, 602 Elsbeth, Dallas, was delinquent on a book entitled, " The Shark and The Sardines", by JUAN JOSE AREVALO . The book was due on November 13, 1963 , and, according to Mrs . BRADSHAW, It would have been charged out on November 6-1963 . The delinquency notice was never mailed.* ..records the book was never returned. Mrs . BRADSHAW indicated her records contained no Other delinquencies for OSWALD .

She made available a copy of the above described book The Shark and the Sardines, 1961. which was authored by a former President of Guatemala, Juan José Arévalo, translated from the Spanish by JUNE COBS and Dr . RAUL OSEGUEDA and published by LYLE STUART, 225 Lafayette Street, New York 12, New York .
The Introduction to the American Reader by the Author, in part, reads as follows:

"In your hands you hold a controversial book—a book that speaks out against your State
Department’s dealings with the peoples of Latin America during the twentieth century. It intends
neither insult nor offense to the United States as a nation. The future of your country is identified
with the future of contemporary democracy. Neither does this book seek to cast blame on the
North American people—who, like us, are victims of an imperialist policy of promoting
business, multiplying markets, and hoarding money"

COMMISSION EXHIBIT NO. 2642 Date 2/25/64 aP 2/19/64 a, Dallas, Texas F, 1,, DL 1^"?-10461 Date dictated 2/22/64 *Not explained is failure to mail delinquency notice in a timely manner. Possibility could be Lee handed over his ID to xxx xxxxx and they collected other id's and when they were giving them back Lee had already been told to shove off by Shelley. Leaving Lee without any "ID", this could be why the cops don't call in any name on way to station from theater with their suspect for Tippit murder. One of many possibilities.
July 21, 2016 at 4:31 AM

Ed. Ledoux wrote:

Each name was called off for warehouse employees and Lee Oswald was absent.

Ed,

The list you provided is signed by Westphal and Parks.

Westphal told Larry Sneed in No More Silence that he went home and then came back to the Fair Grounds where he prepared his Report off of handwritten pieces of paper, some of which were hard to read. He did tell Sneed, "As I was writing the report, the captain called and wanted to check the School Book Depository employee list with our files."
https://books.google.com/books?id=7uT-47ysB5MC&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=%22Roy+Westphal%22&source=bl&ots=eii6BNhKq2&sig=yW-zSNny7lobXnp4mHPf9fb9KV4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwipm5qK1NDRAhVNyWMKHaV9Ddg4ChDoAQgzMAc#v=onepage&q=%22Roy%20Westphal%22&f=false

PS: I wonder if the policeman standing in the doorway with a clipboard is Erich Kaminski, who Lumkin said he had posted at the front door taking names, addresses and phone numbers.

Steve Thomas

Yes he talked Parks into a ride and a report...name Oswald come up?

Note that Mrs Dean also came up in the files with a record. 

That the notes were hard to read is probably enough to explain the 605 snafu. It doesn't explain the "Harvey Lee Oswald" name because, if I'm right, that's how it was written on the paper to start with by Kaminski (due t the card being shown upside down).

greg parker wrote:Note that Mrs Dean also came up in the files with a record. 

That the notes were hard to read is probably enough to explain the 605 snafu. It doesn't explain the "Harvey Lee Oswald" name because, if I'm right, that's how it was written on the paper to start with by Kaminski (due t the card being shown upside down).

Greg,

No, it doesn't.

I was reading Eddie Piper's WC testimony the other day, and he talks about the employees being made to line up in single file and present their identification to a "detective". If Kaminski was in plain clothes, then I guess the policeman standing in the doorway with a piece of paper in his hands, is probably not him.

Pipe said something curious when he was talking about a policeman and Truly rushing up the stairs. Piper said, " and I'm still standing over there by that table and he (Truly) ran up on up the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and I was standing there..."
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/piper2.htm


I found that curious.


Steve Thomas

Steve Thomas wrote:

greg parker wrote:Note that Mrs Dean also came up in the files with a record. 

That the notes were hard to read is probably enough to explain the 605 snafu. It doesn't explain the "Harvey Lee Oswald" name because, if I'm right, that's how it was written on the paper to start with by Kaminski (due t the card being shown upside down).

Greg,

No, it doesn't.

I was reading Eddie Piper's WC testimony the other day, and he talks about the employees being made to line up in single file and present their identification to a "detective". If Kaminski was in plain clothes, then I guess the policeman standing in the doorway with a piece of paper in his hands, is probably not him.

Pipe said something curious when he was talking about a policeman and Truly rushing up the stairs. Piper said, " and I'm still standing over there by that table and he (Truly) ran up on up the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and I was standing there..."
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/piper2.htm


I found that curious.


Steve Thomas

Steve,

Piper is hardly a reliable witness. He didn't know whether Baker was a cop or an FBI agent. Kaminski was a lieutenant in the Vice Squad so it seems he would have been in a uniform.

There are plenty of curiosities in his account. Did you notice how they hammered him about ever being up on the 6th?

greg parker wrote:

Piper is hardly a reliable witness. He didn't know whether Baker was a cop or an FBI agent. Kaminski was a lieutenant in the Vice Squad so it seems he would have been in a uniform.

I do know one thing, they either need to get that clock in the TSBD fixed, or somebody has to teach Piper how to read time.
He said that when the shots rang out, he looked at the clock and it said 12:55.

I disagree with you about the uniform though. Those guys in the Special Service Bureau wore plain clothes.

Steve Thomas

Steve Thomas wrote:

greg parker wrote:

Piper is hardly a reliable witness. He didn't know whether Baker was a cop or an FBI agent. Kaminski was a lieutenant in the Vice Squad so it seems he would have been in a uniform.

I do know one thing, they either need to get that clock in the TSBD fixed, or somebody has to teach Piper how to read time.
He said that when the shots rang out, he looked at the clock and it said 12:55.

I disagree with you about the uniform though. Those guys in the Special Service Bureau wore plain clothes.

Steve Thomas

Steve, you made the same mistake I did until corrected by Sean Murphy. You got that time from McAdams but it's a mistranscription. What Piper actually wrote was 12:25.... which is even more suspicious since that was supposed to be when the motorcade was due, but as you know, not when it actually did arrive. During his testimony, he was allowed to go unquestioned when he claimed it was 12:27 to 12:30.

Detectives wore plain clothes. Command staff wore uniforms.

greg parker wrote:

Detectives wore plain clothes. Command staff wore uniforms.

Greg,

Huh. I didn't know that.

Steve