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Hargrove's 20 Alternative Facts (for those who prefer their conspiracies devoid of any reality)

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Hargrove's 20 Alternative Facts (for those who prefer their conspiracies devoid of any reality)

Post by greg parker on Fri 24 Mar 2017, 12:09 am

20 Facts Indicating the Oswald Project was Run by the CIA


1. CIA accountant James Wilcott said he made payments to an encrypted account for “Oswald or the Oswald Project.”


It is not a good witness who says nothing in real time because his hearsay information would not be helpful, but then leaves his employer because he is "disenchanted" and only then starts talking about the "Oswald Project". If he thought his information was useless in the '60s, why would it be any better in the '70s? 
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=34140&search=%22oswald_project%22#relPageId=4&tab=page


2. Antonio Veciana said he saw LHO meeting with CIA’s Maurice Bishop/David Atlee Phillips in Dallas in August 1963.

Any reference book on CIA procedures will tell you that case officers do not meet their agents in public places. Absolutely verboten. This gets traction only via wishful thinking. If any such meeting took place, it should be considered prima facie evidence that Oswald was not being run by Philips - that the relationship was something else.

3. A 1978 CIA memo indicates that a CIA operations officer “had run an agent into the USSR, that man having met a Russian girl and eventually marrying her,” a case very similar to Oswald’s and clearly indicating that the Agency ran a “false defector” program in the 1950s.

This is a perfect example of the lack of care and logic used. A CIA officer sends someone into the Soviet Union and that person marries and that is all you need to prove a "False Defection Program"? I don' thin' so, Lucy. All it is proof of is that a gnat has more research skills than these guys. The CIA Officer of this story is Robert Byrnes and being "run" was Leonard Kirsch. He returned to the US with his wife in '62 - the same year as Oswald. Kirsch was an exchange student and part of the CIA REDSKIN program.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=74676&relPageId=155&search=%22Leonard_Kirsch%22

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/03/us/robert-francis-byrnes-79-influential-expert-on-russia.html

4. Robert Webster and LHO "defected" a few months apart in 1959, both tried to "defect" on a Saturday, both possessed "sensitive" information of possible value to the Russians, both were befriended by Marina Prusakova, and both returned to the United States in the spring of 1962.

Since there was no Oswald Project", any "connection" here must be in regard to something else. I wonder what that could be?  Go for it!
 
5. Richard Sprague, Richard Schweiker, and CIA agents Donald Norton and Joseph Newbrough all said LHO was associated with the CIA. 

Did any of them pony up with anything other than supposition? Which Donald Norton are we talking about anyway? Don O Don P or Don J?
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/burlingtonfreepress/obituary.aspx?pid=157349627



6. CIA employee Donald Deneslya said he read reports of a CIA agent who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child.

Utter rubbish. Deneslaya claimed to have read reports about someone wanting to redefect. - an ex-Marine who sounds like Oswald. Nowhere but nowhere does Deneslaya refer to this person as an agent. He does indicate he may have been a "contact" for intel on the Minsk factory. That, does not an "agent" make.

7. Kenneth Porter, employee of CIA-connected Collins Radio, left his family to marry (and no doubt monitor) Marina Oswald after LHO’s death.

LOL So every person ever employed by Collins Radio was CIA? 

8. George Joannides, case officer and paymaster for DRE (which LHO had attempted to infiltrate) was put in charge of lying to the HSCA and never told them of his relationship to DRE.

Let me get this straight. LHO was a CIA agent trying to infiltrate a CIA sponsored Cuban exile group? You guys are just downright scary. 

9. For his achievements, Joannides was given a medal by the CIA.

Any connection between the medal and his HSCA work is not proven. Which makes it perfect evidence to claim whatever you want!

10. FBI took Oswald off the watch list at the same time a CIA cable gave him a clean bill of political health, weeks after Oswald’s New Orleans arrest and less than two months before the assassination.

And your proof that this is linked to an "Oswald Project" is?

11. Oswald’s lengthy “Lives of Russian Workers” essay reads like a pretty good intelligence report.

Yes it does. But it also reads like the type of diary the Reds forced those being "re-educated" to keep. I know it's a lot to ask, but you should try something different in writing this dross - study some history.

12. Oswald’s possessions were searched for microdots.

Because Oswald had that word written in his notebook. Duh!

13. Oswald owned an expensive Minox spy camera, which the FBI tried to make disappear.

Not Oswald's - but planted to look like it was his.

14. Even the official cover story of the radar operator near American U-2 planes defecting to Russia, saying he would give away all his secrets, and returning home without penalty smells like a spy story.

Nowhere near as smelly as a 1000 page book about a CIA sperm bank by-product. The facts will be made public this year.

15. CIA Richard Case Nagell clearly knew about the plot to assassinate JFK and LHO’s relation to it, but the CIA ignored his warnings.

Show where he warned the CIA.

16. LHO always seemed poor as a church mouse, until it was time to go “on assignment.”  For his Russian adventure, we’re to believe he saved all the money he needed for first class European hotels and private tour guides in Moscow from the non-convertible USMC script he saved. In the summer of 1963, he once again seemed to have enough money to travel abroad to Communist nations.

"An assignment" doesn't equate to an "Oswald Project". An assignment indicates minor work on a project that is not about you. "I'm on assignment... I'm playing me (or my doppelganger) in my own project!" Nope. Doesn't work.

17. To this day, the CIA claims it never interacted with Oswald, that it didn’t even bother debriefing him after the “defection.” What utter bs….

So denial is confirmation and black is white?

18. After he “defected” to the Soviet Union in 1959, bragging to U.S. embassy personnel in Moscow that he would tell the Russians everything he knew about U.S. military secrets, he returns to the U.S. without punishment and is then in 1963 given the OK to travel to Cuba and the Soviet Union again!

Without punishment because... HE DID NOTHING ILLEGAL!!!

19. Allen Dulles, the CIA director fired by JFK, and the Warren Commission clearly wanted the truth hidden from the public to protect sources and methods of intelligence agencies such as the CIA. Earl Warren said, “Full disclosure was not possible for reasons of national security.”

Yep. So?


20. President Kennedy and the CIA clearly were at war with each other in the weeks immediately before his assassination, as evidenced by Arthur Krock's infamous defense of the Agency in the Oct. 3, 1963 New York Times. “Oswald” was the CIA’s pawn.

Kennedy was at war with the CIA and Oswald was a CIA pawn and that is another of your "proofs" that there was an "Project Oswald"? Only a lunatic would make that statement.


Last edited by greg parker on Sat 25 Mar 2017, 8:17 am; edited 3 times in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
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Re: Hargrove's 20 Alternative Facts (for those who prefer their conspiracies devoid of any reality)

Post by Terry W. Martin on Fri 24 Mar 2017, 11:55 pm

Nicely debunked, Greg.

Is there a follow-up planned, or do we have to wait for your book?
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Re: Hargrove's 20 Alternative Facts (for those who prefer their conspiracies devoid of any reality)

Post by greg parker on Sat 25 Mar 2017, 8:18 am

Terry W. Martin wrote:Nicely debunked, Greg.

Is there a follow-up planned, or do we have to wait for your book?
Terry,

all my research will be out by the end of the year via book or through the conference, or both.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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for Mathias Baumann

Post by greg parker on Sat 05 Aug 2017, 11:02 am

mathias wrote:There's of course a lot more to this. Oswald's leafletting in New Orleans took place at a time when both the CIA and FBI were planning a smear campaign against the Fairplay for Cuba Committee. The radio debate in which Oswald was confronted with his time in Russia was definitely staged to expose him as a communist sympathizer and a Soviet stooge.

We also know that the FPCC was one of David Attlee Phillips primary targets. And the same David Attlee Phillips later tried to plant false stories linking Oswald to the KGB and Fidel Castro and was caught repeatedly lying to the HSCA about the circumstances of Oswald's trip to Mexico.

And then there's of course the curious fact that the Mexico City station was deliberately kept in the dark about Oswald's actions in New Orleans and that counterintelligence had a top secret file on Oswald... And it was Joannides' job to make sure that a lid was kept on all of this.
This was in reply to my claim that the 2 Oswald goon squad had blown a gasket by suggesting that Oswald was a CIA agent trying to infiltrate a CIA run Cuban exile group.

On May 16 and May 20, 1963, the FBI received intelligence from two informants indicating that the FPCC had successfully cleaned up its house and was no longer under CP or SWP influence. On May 26, Oswald writes to the FPCC requesting a charter, and follows up with a series of letters which seem to link the FPCC back to the CP and SWP.

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1203-oswald-and-forrest-gump

When someone like Oswald comes in from the Cold, he becomes FBI property... not that I am saying he was ever CIA property. A witting or unwitting asset at best. 

David Atlee Phillips blah blah blah. Sometimes I get the impression that invoking his name is all that is required to prove anything. Anything at all. It's like a Harry Potter incantation, especially when chanted with that other magical word "Veciana". 

Oswald never went to MC, but his name does appear to have been used in some type of op there. But again, we are outside of the USA.
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t6-the-houston-problem-pt-1
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t7-the-houston-problem-pt-2
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t5-border-crossing-was-it-oswald


Mathias wrote:I think this is one of the most powerful pieces of evidence that Oswald part of a bigger plot. It was almost right after Oswald had been taken off the list that things got into motion. Look at this timeline:

October 3, 1963: Oswald returns to Dallas.

October 8, 1963: Gheesling takes Oswald off the FBI's watch list - for reasons unknown.

October 10, 1963: a memo is created, compiling the latest information on Oswald http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1565#relPageId=2&tab=page. Only six senior CIA officers had access to it. http://jfkfacts.org/did-the-cia-track-oswald-before-jfk-was-killed/

October 15, 1963: Oswald gets the job at the Book Depository. Rents a room under a false name.

So clearly the plotters had access to this kind of information, which indicates that the plot involved people within the intelligence community. With Oswald still being on the watch list they could not reasonably expect the assassination to succeed. So they either had to know that Oswald was off the list or maybe even possessed the influence to get him off it.

And knowledge of Oswald's contact with Kostikov (plus the fact that Kostikov was a KGB terror agent) was the decisive factor in choosing Oswald in the first place.

My personal hunch is that the conspirators had also learned about Oswald's failed assassination attempt on General Walker. George de Mohrenschildt may have been their source. We know he had wide-ranging intelligence connections. So the plotters knew Oswald was a violent person that could be incited to commit political murder.

This was in response to my asking the goon squad for their evidence of any connection between being taken off the watch list and the so-called "Oswald project".

I'm not sure if you understand what the Good Squad means by "Oswald project", so I'll explain just in case. "The Oswald Project" (according to the guys you are engaging) was a CIA Doppelganger project where Oswald was given a double at the age of about 12. This double was remarkable. He could look like Oswald when he needed to and he could look different when he needed to. He was also Hungarian. I put it down to all the goulash. 

I think claiming that Oswald being taken off the watch list because of this "program" is most certainly something they need to back up with evidence. But they never ill. None exists. It is a hypothesis stacked on top of a fairy tale. Nothing you have said is any kind of proof or linkage to this fairy tale, either. 

But let's look at your claims:

You say the plotters had access to all kinds of information... yet continually get his vital stats wrong... because they are going off a description supplied to the FBI by Marguerite. 

I'm going from memory here, so I'll stand corrected if need be, but the Kostikov info was supplied in a letter purportedly by Oswald himself? A letter I (and others) suspect was actually written by Ruth Paine...

Oswald got a job at the TSBD - yep. That is something that is a fact and is highly relevant. And had nothing to do with the CIA. 

Oswald rents a room under a false name: nope. No he doesn't. Not under his real name. Not under a false name. 
https://www.thenewdisease.space/sylvia-odio

While I'm at it, there is a way someone can teach themselves Russian quickly. It is a "gift" bestowed upon some with Asperger's Syndrome

I taught myself to speak to an intermediate level knowledge of Russian during my first year in High School. Also, I was the most advanced student in my French classes to the point of just being completely bored waiting for the other students to catch up and my teachers seemed to be impressed my ability. I also taught myself a good deal of German.

Languages come super easy to me and I have no idea why, but ever since I learned that I have Asperger’s, I have always wondered if it was related to my seemingly special abilities with languages.


Also all of the Russian-speaking people that I have met were astonished because they said that I speak Russian with absolutely no American accent.

https://www.quora.com/Do-Aspies-often-have-an-especially-hard-time-learning-foreign-languages

The above is supported in actual studies.

Yes, I am saying that Oswald was a high functioning Asperger.

If I have sounded over-critical, I don't want to balance that by becoming condescending, but I do want to say, I have followed your posts and you have the "brains" to see what you are dealing with in that thread. I hope you do work it out. 

Let me just say that Tracey is one of the good guys in this debate. And I think that carries over to real life. There are only a small number of decent LNs (imo), but Tracey is one of them.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Hargrove's 20 Alternative Facts (for those who prefer their conspiracies devoid of any reality)

Post by greg parker on Thu 10 Aug 2017, 9:03 am

Jimbo Hargrove wrote:I'm going to respond to Mr. Parker's rebuttals to my list of reasons LHO was a CIA spy one item at a time, and in no particular order.  In this post, my comments are in black, Mr. Parker's in blue.
It is hard to argue against ignorance. 

A spy is involved in espionage. Espionage is illegal. Oswald did nothing illegal in the USSR, therefore he did not go there as a "spy".


Mathias Baumann on LHO Historic Diary wrote:This certainly doesn't read like an ordinary diary. Surely Oswald wrote that report with the intention to convey information to someone else.
Even if he did, it does not constitute spying. There was nothing illegal in him keeping a diary like that. Did it contain useful information for intel analysts? Of course it did! Was it his intent to write it for that purpose, or simply to fulfill his dream of becoming a writer like Hemingway? 

If he did write it for intelligence and that was pre-planned, he would be an "agent". If he did it off the cuff and under his own volition for intelligence, he would be a "contact" or a "witting asset". The only other possibility is that he did it under his own steam under encouragement from "others" for his writing ambitions, with those "others" using that ambition for their own ends. In that case, he is an unwitting asset.

For the record, of all of those options, I tend toward pre-planning with full knowledge of the Soviets (or more precisely, key officials/politicians).


Jimbo protesting that Kenneth Porter must be CIA wrote:Carl Mather also worked for Collins Radio, and see below for a third Collins Radio employee clearly in bed with the CIA at the time of the HSCA. Collins Radio was the lessee of the Rex, a ship that helped bring a team of CIA assassins to Cuba on October 31, 1963.  Rhetorical giggling won't make the incriminating facts about this case go away.  Bill Kelly's article linked below demonstrates that Collins Radio was up to it's eyeballs in CIA shenanigans.

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2012/02/collins-radio-connections-to.html

By the time the HSCA was in session, Collins Radio personnel still had a close association with the CIA, as this July 2017 NARA release demonstrates.  There are many other examples in this single 2017 release.
None of that is proof about Kenneth Porter being CIA. Not even close to proof. It is wild speculation at best, based on association. I have worked with "former" spies (real ones, as opposed to your phantoms). Does that make me a spy? By your logic, who knows?


More examples of long bows and short arrows - my responses in bold - my previous responses in italics wrote:20. President Kennedy and the CIA clearly were at war with each other in the weeks immediately before his assassination, as evidenced by Arthur Krock's infamous defense of the Agency in the Oct. 3, 1963 New York Times. “Oswald” was the CIA’s pawn.

Even if true, it is not proof of an "Oswald Project" which was your original suggestion

Kennedy was at war with the CIA and Oswald was a CIA pawn and that is another of your "proofs" that there was an "Project Oswald"? Only a lunatic would make that statement.

I'll let Mr. Parker be in charge of the insults and limit my explanation to four easy-to-understand points.

Well, at least I don't insult anyone's intelligence, Jimbo.

1. With his trip to Russia, staged FPCC activities, and staged commie-loving history going all the way back to the Marine Corps, it was easy to paint the Russian-speaking Oswald as a commie with ties to Castro, which is exactly what happened.  LBJ had to intervene to prevent a possible war with Cuba and perhaps even the Soviets. (Question for Mr. Parker:  What CIA Officer lied over and over in his attempts to tie Oswald to the Cubans and Castro and the assassination of JFK?)

LOL. Good intel officers think on their feet and take advantage of unfolding events.

That said, yes, there was pr-planning to paint him as a commie.  You don't have a quarter of the facts about it, or who was really behind it.


2. Oswald’s ties to both the FBI and the CIA made G-men, especially J. Edgar Hoover, all too happy to enter full scale cover-up mode immediately.  Please understand: If you are plotting the assassination of a sitting president, you have to shut down a full scale investigation.  Otherwise, the search for the guilty will be relentless and you will be caught.

Agreed, but I will add that you have the FBI involved beforehand by taking him off the watch list.

3. Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald had demonstrated that he would follow even difficult orders, critical in the days and hours before and immediately after the assassination. (He absolutely had to be in the right places at the right times to become a successful patsy.  And a patsy was absolutely critical for the plot to succeed.  Without one, the search for the plotters would have been, again, relentless.)

There you go. Starting with the presumption of a real "Harvey". Utter twaddle.

The real patsy was the real (and only) Oswald. He was placed in that building under a false pretext, but there was no attempt to manipulate him after that - not until it came time to getting him to the TT to eat some lead, anyway. His death in the theater was part of the plan to paint him as a Commie. Makes no sense? Not supposed to because I am leaving out key elements of the plan.


4.  The “Harvey and Lee” project (JA suspects it was controlled by David Atlee Phillips) made it simple to send around a fellow who looked like Russian-speaking Oswald in the weeks prior to the hit to set him up as the assassin-to-be.  For example....

More twaddle. The majority of the Oct/Nov Dallas sightings were of Larry Crafard. Innocently.

The Sports Drome Rifle Range on Oct. 26, Nov. 9, Nov. 10, and again on Nov. 17, several times creating a scene and once shooting at another guy's target.

One in the unknown category.

Morgan's Gun Shop in Fort Worth on Nov 2.




The Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership also on Nov. 2 where he test drove a car at wrecklessly high speeds saying he would soon come into enough money to buy a new car.

That was the real Oswald who was acting on the belief he needed a car to do his driving test - and had indeed been encouraged by Mike Paine to buy one.

The Irving Furniture Mart On Nov. 6 or 7 for a gun part where he was referred to the shop where Dial Ryder worked.

Dial Ryder was a bullshit artist, pure and simple.

The Southland Hotel parking garage (Allright Parking Systems) on Nov. 15 to apply for a job and oh-so-subtly ask how high the Southland Building was and if it had a good view of downtown Dallas.

Hallmark, the owner, believed one of his employees had fabricated the story and there was no record of any application made. What sort of set-up would go to all of this trouble running doubles all over the place, but not leave actual hard evidence - in this case, an application? I also note that it was around this time that Larry Crafard was getting pissed off about lack of pay from Ruby. If it happened at all (and it looks doubtful), it was most likely Crafard, but changed to Oswald because damn it! it looked a bit like him!


Hitchhiking on Nov. 20 on the R.L. Thornton Expressway while carrying a 4-foot long package wrapped in brown paper and introducing himself to Ralph Yates as “Lee Harvey Oswald.” He discussed the President's visit, wondered if you could shoot a president, and asked to be dropped across the street from the Texas School Book Depository (where Russian-speaking “Lee Harvey Oswald” was already at work).

Definitely Crafard who earned money on the side as "rough trade" in known cruising spots. That was the whole reason for Ralph Yates inability to explain his presence in Oak Cliff - he was picking up men. It was also the reason for his breakdown.

The 1973 motion picture “Executive Action” with Burt Lancaster and Robert Ryan does a great job showing how an “Oswald” look-alike traveled around Dallas in the weeks before the assassination doing many of the things listed above.  Many of the earliest Warren Commission critics also wrote about the frame-up of Oswald in the weeks preceding the assassination.

Wow! Citing fictional movies as evidence. What next, I wonder?

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Hargrove's 20 Alternative Facts (for those who prefer their conspiracies devoid of any reality)

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