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Jimbo lying through his teeth again

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Jimbo lying through his teeth again

Post by greg parker on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 8:11 am

Hargrove keeps repeating the same tired BS




FBI agents, within hours of the assassination, began confiscating the school and teen-aged employment records of Lee Harvey Oswald.  This was done before any known effort was made to determine if the alleged assassin had accomplices or if any other members of the U.S. government were targeted.



A biography of “Lee Harvey Oswald” as a child and teenager eventually was created by the Warren Commission based largely of alleged copies of the original documents which disappeared while in FBI custody.  Among the witnesses who contradicted the Warren Commission’s official biography were “Lee Harvey Oswald’s”  mother Marguerite, his brother Robert, his half-brother John Pic, and school and work witnesses and friends including Maury Goodman, Louis Marzialle, Rita Paveur, Francis Mouton, Frank DiBenedetto, Gloria Callaghan, Palmer McBride, Frank Kudlaty, Fran Schubert, Myra DaRouse, Doug Gann, Bobby Pitts, Mark Summers, William Wulf, Walter Gehrke, Milton Kurian, Henry Timmer, and undoubtedly others not occurring to me at the moment.


Members of the Warren Commission must have suspected something was wrong with the copies of “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” school records, because they requested originals from the FBI, which ignored the request.  John Armstrong and the ARRB confirmed that there were no original school records whatsoever in the huge collection of documents in the JFK collection at the National Archives.



In reality, as Belmont committed to paper in a letter to the WC as pointed out in an internal fbi memo (thanks Jeremy)

"...We had not asked for original documents such as school records or employment records. They [Rankin and Willens] were told that if the Commission desired original records in any instance, and would make it known, the Bureau would attempt to obtain such documents."

The claim that FBI agents began confiscating school records withln hours etc is based on one instance - the entirely made up raid on Stripling. 

Not only did the FBI not ignore any request for originals, the WC was specifically told - just make a request and we'll try and get 'em.

Hargrove is full of shit. But the lapdogs live up to their names and lap it up...
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=61490&relPageId=285&search=original_"school%20records"


Last edited by greg parker on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 10:13 pm; edited 3 times in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Jimbo lying through his teeth again

Post by greg parker on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 8:38 am

But it gets even better... Rankin knew - because he had been told by the NY authorities - that regulations forbade them giving the originals.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=61490&search=original_"school+records"#relPageId=284&tab=page

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Jimbo lying through his teeth again

Post by greg parker on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 11:32 pm

jh wrote:In preparation for the testimony of Marguerite Oswald in February 1964, the
Warren Commission requested Oswald's original New York school and court records
from Mayor Wagner of New York City. On February 4, Miss Bernice McCrae of the
Mayors office spoke with Judge Kelley, who advised that she had given the original
records to SAIC John Malone.
Did Armstrong provide a cite that original records were requested?


jh wrote:There is no doubt the FBI had possession of Oswald's original school records
and court files and withheld the originals from the Warren Commission. When they pro­
vided copies of the documents to the Commission I wondered if they gave the Commis­
sion all of the documents received from Judge Kelley or only some of the documents. I
also wondered the extent to which some or all of the copies they provided to the Com­
mission had been altered or manipulated.
There is no evidence that the FBI ever had the original school records, and as pointed out, had already found this was not possible to do. 

According to Armstrong himself, Kelley had handed over original court records on condition that they were "transmitted immediately" to the WC.

When I see the phrase "transmit immediately" I'm not thinking snail mail or courier. I'm thinking fax. If the records were faxed, it would explain Malone getting the originals to "transmit immediately", copies received by the WC and the FBI not needing to keep the originals.

It is just another mountain that started out as a humble molehill...



The problem was not the FBI. The problem was in not being able to obtain some original records without court order.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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tackling a patented Armstrong Minion data salad:

Post by greg parker on Wed 21 Jun 2017, 9:59 am

jh wrote:The WC requested Oswald's original New York school records
As I began sorting through New York school and court records, I realized that
the Warren Commission may also have been aware of conflicting records. They asked
the FBI to obtain Oswald's original school and court records, but the Bureau did not
comply. The Commission then wrote to New York Mayor Robert Wagner and asked his
office for help in obtaining Oswald's original school records.
No citation that the WC became aware of "conflicting information". It is unsupported opinion drawn from a very strained reading of the records. 

No citation that any request was ever made for original school records. Armstrong seems to be conflating the school and court records to suit his purpose.

The next claim that the "bureau did not comply" is unsupportable without evidence they were ever asked. As I showed though at the start of this thread, an internal FBI memo indicates they would try and comply should the request ever be made. 

The last claim here that the WC requested Mayor Wagner to provide the original school records also bears no citation. We are merely given Wagner's response which stated copies of the records were attached. That is a typical ploy used by the Harveyistas - provide an answer to question that they claim - but won't actually demonstrate - was ever asked. On the face of it, Wagner is complying with a request for copies of the records - and that is how it should be understood until the Brains Trust can provide proof their contrary assertion.


jh wrote:Mayor Wagner's office responded to the Commission's request by enclosing
copies of Oswald's New York school records and advising that the original court records
had been turned over to SA John Malone personally by Judge Florence Kelley  It
appeared the original records disappeared while in SA Malone's custody, so I decided
to place all available documentation and correspondence in chronological order to see
if my thoughts were correct.
Yes, as above, you provide proof of the answer, but no proof of the question. WHERE IS THE REQUEST FOR THE ORIGINALS of the school records?

Yes, we know the original court records were turned over to Malone by Kelley. But you have zero evidence that those records disappeared in Malone's custody. It is evident that Kelley was extremely concerned about letting go of the records. She handed them to Malone on the basis that they be "transmitted immediately" to the WC. That underlines her concern, with the most likely scenario being that Malone faxed the records - perhaps even under Kelley's watchful eye - so that Kelley could then be handed the originals straight back. Yes, here, without doubt, I am speculating. But my speculation is soundly based on was was technically possible back then, and upon Kelley's reluctance to let those records out of her sight. Armstrong's speculation that Malone took the original documents away, copied them, altered them and then "lost" the originals, is the stuff of an over-active imagination coupled with a need to paint certain pictures for his credulous audience. 



jh wrote:On November 27, 1963 Judge Kelley allowed SAIC Malone to review the
Oswald file in her chambers and in her presence. She permitted him to take notes of
pertinent portions, but would not permit the file to be removed from her office or copied.
A few days later she conferred with the Presiding Justice of the Appellate Division,
Bernard Botein, and with his approval agreed to turn over all original court records in
possession of the Family Court to SAIC Malone.
Again, we see how protective of the court records Kelley was - initially allowing Malone to only view them in her presence.  That underlines the probability that even when she handed them over to Malone, the records never left her sight and were returned to her immediately after being faxed.


jh wrote:On December 2, 1963 Judge Kelley personally gave the Oswald file to Malone
with the condition that it be transmitted immediately to the Warren Commission. Three
days later, on December 5, 1963, FBI SA Michael O'Rourke advised the Secret Service
the file had been sent to the Warren Commission. On December 10, eight days after Judge
Kelley turned her court file over to the FBI, an internal FBI memo relating to the Files
of Domestic Relations Court states, "rec'd by Assist Dir. John Malone 11/27-12/2." From
this memo and Judge Kelley's statement, it is clear that Judge Kelley gave the original
court file to SAIC Malone
That the simple use of a fax at the time of them being handed over, never occurred to the Brains Trust, is the real issue. No simple explanation will suffice when a labyrinthine conspiracy can be tortuously constructed from made up questions and displaced answers.


jh wrote:In preparation for the testimony of Marguerite Oswald in February 1964, the
Warren Commission requested Oswald's original New York school and court records
from Mayor Wagner of New York City. On February 4, Miss Bernice McCrae of the
Mayors office spoke with Judge Kelley, who advised that she had given the original
records to SAIC John Malone.
No citation provided that any records were requested in preparation for the questioning of Marguerite.

No trace of any "Bernice McRae" found at MFF or in Armstrong's online collection.

What Armstrong is doing here is deliberately conflating the court and school records as if what pertained to one, pertained to both. Kelley advised - correctly - that she had handed over the court records - not both the court and school records. Indeed, on the same date (Feb 4) that Armstrong has Bernie baby on the phone to Kelley, Mayor Wagner sent his letter to the WC with attached copies of the school records. Why? Because originals of these were not asked for. Armstrong conflates the court and school records to make it appear that the original school records were requested - but try and find the proof among the data salad that such a request was made and you'll be sorely disappointed.

Further, Armstrong wants his ever-credulous fans to believe that when Kelley says she handed  records over, she is talking about both court and school records - why? So he can claim the originals were disappeared. But clearly she only had the court records in her possession.


jh wrote:On February 7, at 3:37 pm, FBI Inspector J. R. Malley telephoned the FBI's
New York office and spoke to the Assistant Special Agent in Charge, W. M. Alexander,
about the original court records. Malley advised that FBI headquarters in Washington
had no information that indicated the original documents had been received from New
York and he asked Alexander to check further.
Again - no citations accompany the claims.  But even if this claim is true, it is as you would expect if the court records were actually facts, not physically taken away by Malone.





jh wrote:Miss McCrae then telephoned the FBI's New York Office. She asked if the
original records in the Oswald file had, in fact, been turned over to the Warren Commis­-
sion. Miss McCrae never received an answer. Later that afternoon she wrote a letter on
behalf of Mayor Wagner to Mr. Rankin of Warren Commission which stated, "I am at­
taching to this letter copies of the school records .... Judge Florence Kelley informed me
she turned over all original records in the possession of the Family Court dealing with
the case of Lee Harvey Oswald to John F. Malone, Assistant Director in Charge of the
New York City office of the FBI."42There is no evidence or documentation whatsoever that
Malone turned the original court file over to the Warren Commission.
 
On February 7, at 3:37 pm, FBI Inspector J. R. Malley telephoned the FBI's
New York office and spoke to the Assistant Special Agent in Charge, W. M. Alexander,
about the original court records. Malley advised that FBI headquarters in Washington
had no information that indicated the original documents had been received from New
York and he asked Alexander to check further.
 
At 3:45 pm Alexander telephoned Malley and advised that SAIC Malone. his
supervisor. had photographed the entire file and that copies of the file had been sent to
FBI headquarters in Washington. Alexander said there was no record that photographs
were sent to FBI headquarters, but that additional photographs of the file were available.
Malley then asked that two copies of the photographs be sent immediately to his atten­
tion at FBI Headquarters in Washington.
 
There is no indication that Inspector Malley made any additional inquiries into
the fate of the original court files, which were last seen by Judge Kelley when she per­
sonally handed them to SAIC John Malone. Whenever original records are destroyed and only
copies or photographs remain, it is probable that the original documents were altered and then
photocopied.
Here we see the jump in logic... Kelley hands original court docs to Malone... but waut! There is no indication that original documents were ever received by FBU HQ!!! Holy Crap! Armstrong is on to something!

No. No he is not. Handing the originals over is one thing - letting those originals be taken from the court records system for eternity is another. Upstream, I hypothesized that Malone had faxed the records. Here, Armstrong himself gives the FBI explanation that Malone had photographed the records. The originals were not lost at all. They stayed where they belonged. 

But after conflating the two sets of records and not examining alternative explanations as to why the WC never had originals, Armstrong leaps to the conclusion that the originals were destroyed and copies were altered. 

All of which could have been avoided if the FBI had raided those schools like they supposedly did with Stripling.

Why didn't they? Because Oswald actually attended those schools in NYC and the only way to get those records was through proper channels. It didn't help either, that Jack White had no friends in the NY schools system who could be tapped to add "credibility" to a raid in the schools claimed by the Brains Trust as attended by one, but not the other of the Harvey and Lee fantasy.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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greg parker
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Re: Jimbo lying through his teeth again

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