Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part A

First topic message reminder :

This is full rebuild of the hugely popular thread created by Mick Purdy at the Webs forum in February 2015. – Stan

Mick Purdy

I believe Buell Wesley Frazier lied about seeing Lee Oswald with a package, a package two feet long on the morning of Friday November 22nd 1963.

I believe Linnie Mae Randle lied about seeing Oswald with a package, a package 27 inches long on the Morning of 22nd Nov 1963.

I believe both Linnie Mae Randle and Buell Wesley Frazier fabricated the curtain rod story.

I think there is ample evidence in their WC testimonies, affidavits and FBI interviews to support each of these contentions.

I have also come to the conclusion (after having a closer look at the testimonies and the various reports), that Buell Wesley Frazier lied about another crucially important matter that day. In my opinion the totality of the evidence suggests Frazier lied with regards to driving Lee Harvey Oswald to work that fateful morning.

Take a moment to reflect upon the importance of that drive to the case against Oswald before reading on.

The story was very likely fabricated not merely to have Oswald appear to carry a sack into work – but also to create the illusion of Oswald carrying a rifle. This conclusion is drawn from a study of the WC testimonies of both Randle and Frazier regarding Oswald, the package and his alleged arrival at the Randle residence that morning. Ten or more neighbours considered to be best placed to spot pedestrian movement in the vicinity were interviewed by the FBI as to whether they saw Oswald carrying a package from the Paine’s home to the Randle home. To a person, they stated they had not seen Oswald that morning – with or without any suspicious package which the police on more than one occasion, described as being similar in size and shape to a rifle case.

Frazier’s WC and Shaw trial testimony regarding the journey into work with Oswald appears rehearsed. Any questions relating to the “sack” or what was said in the car on the way in is met with what sounds very much like scripted answers that have become Frazier’s Lore. The sack, the curtain rods, the weather, and my favourite, Oswald’s kids, are IMO all part of the charade. Away from the small talk and banter about kids, he constantly flip flopped on testimony in a manner redolent with patterns of deceit.

Frazier’s WC testimony with regard to his arrival at work is at complete odds with the HSCA interview of Edward Shields. Though it could be argued Shields, unlike Frazier, was not under oath, and therefore is a witness of lesser value, the fact is that Shields was as close as you can get to a disinterested party merely reporting for the first what he had heard. Sadly, it took well over a decade for him to receive any relevant questions. In any event, it is highly unlikely he ever realized the import of his information.
  
From the HSCA interview of Shields
 

SHIELDS: I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...Well, I was down on the floor when they hollered out and said and the answer he gave them, I don't know, I think he said: "I dropped him off at the building." Now, whoever it was hollering asked him, I don't know.
DAY: This is the morning of the assassination?
SHIELDS: Mm-hmm.
DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."
SHIELDS: Yes.
DAY: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?
SHIELDS: No I didn’t.

 
To summarize what we have so far… no one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald walk to the Frazier residence that morning. No one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald in Frazier’s car that morning – except Frazier himself. No one saw Lee Harvey Oswald that morning with any package except Wes and Linnie Mae.

Frazier also testified that he let Oswald get well ahead on the walk from the car park to the loading dock entrance. But in the form of Edward Shields, we have a potential reason for Frazier to construct that story.

In the above two short paragraphs alone, we have three “firsts” – firsts that are needed for the official story to hold. Oswald had never walked to the Randle residence for his lift before. He was always picked up at the Paine house. Oswald had never taken a long package to work before. Oswald had never neglected to take a packed lunch before. Oswald had never even needed a lift on a Friday morning before. Frazier had never let Oswald walk ahead of him from the car park before. They had always walked in together. That is a lot of “firsts” – all reliant on a very tight little knit of witnesses outside of which, no corroboration exists. Nobody else, not one person can verify Frazier’s version of events in Irving except for his sister. At the other end of the journey at the TSBD parking lot, we rely solely on Frazier. It beggars belief that there are no other witnesses. That walk was at least 2 and 1/2 blocks long. Shields and Givens smash his fairy-tale apart.

This “story” IMO has the same stench wafting around it, like the rest of the days fables contain.

The bus trip, the cab ride, the sack, the run, the walk, the ducking, the escape, the 2nd floor, the first floor, the sixth floor, the lunch bag, the rifle case, the back seat, the front seat, the white jacket the grey jacket, the gun, the revolver ……………
 
An alternative scenario

Postal Inspectors interviewed Mr and Mrs CP Schneider at 2707 West Fifth St in the early evening of November 22. Mr Schneider confirmed he had seen Lee Oswald in front of the 2515 residence at approximately 6:00pm of the previous evening. He also stated that a neighbour, Mrs Ed Roberts of 2519 West Fifth St had told him that Willie Randle, 2439 West Fifth St, had driven Oswald to work on the morning of November 22, and that Oswald was carrying a package large enough to have contained a rifle. (CD 296)

What sort of investigation is it that receives hearsay evidence such as the above and fails to follow up to confirm or refute it with the parties involved? WE are indeed, expected to believe that no follow up was done, because there is no evidence any follow up was done. Yet, there is actually circumstantial evidence that the authorities did believe that Randle was the man who gave the lift because that same night, the FBI was attempting to trace the origins of the scope in the names of Lee Oswald OR Willie Randall [sic]. (CD 87) It is virtually impossible to believe that the FBI would act on hearsay alone, when a few houses from where the hearsay was received, lived the person who had passed on that hearsay. You would almost have to believe that this “Willie Randle” lead was followed up and that it checked out given the ease with which such a lead could be checked out. To further complicate matters, the DPD already had Oswald’s alleged driver in custody. If Frazier truly was the driver, there would no reason at all to be checking on “Willy Randle/Randall” as a co-conspirator!

Randle had arrived in Austin at about 7:00pm on what was said to be work-related business in company with co-worker named Berry Caster. (FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 32, p44) It is between a 3 and 4 hour drive from Irving to Austin, so it is far from impossible that “Willie” drove Lee to work that morning on the basis that Frazier had already left.

Because of the holes in the official investigation, some conjecture is needed if we are to try understand the mess we have been left. What follows is some of my conjecture.

Frazier left that morning on his own – with the throwdown M-C rifle. The call from Givens of “where’s your rider?” was code giving Frazier the all clear to bring “the package” in, or was code for simply it’s clear to come inside.

Since Lee had missed his ride, Willie Randle offered to give him one, but needed to borrow Ruth’s car since his own was full of work gear for the trip to Austin later on. This leads to Oswald’s statement in front of Roger Craig concerning Craig’s description of a certain station wagon that "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."

Doesn’t that sound like someone talking about a car that was being driven by someone else?

I’d like to thank Greg Parker for his enormous support and encouragement.

Ed Ledoux

I called and left a message.

Mick Purdy

If memeory serves me well and it may not, but I seem to recall the loading dock exit was mentioned by Wesley  in one of the you-tube interviews in this thread, it caused a stir back when it was discovered. I agree with Ed, sounds like the testimony of Truly's re: Given's sighting.

More and more it seems Wesley just doesn't want the truth to surface about his movements after the assassination. There would seem to be at least 4-5 different versions of what he claims took place after the shots. That to my mind is not misrembering, the arrest of Wes has 4-5 different versions too. He never was clear on how he came to get the job in at the TSBD in the first place let alone why he left Hunstville to come to the big smoke and sleep on a couch in a house full to the brim with people.

He is a key to this mess IMO. He is a man whom I believe could help put an end to the lies. He knows a lot more than he is willing to tell IMO. 

But time is our enemy.

Ed Ledoux

Lets see if he remembers John A. McCabe arrested him (or detained him) and took him to Irving PD.

Doubt he follows the official line, for what ever reason he has shifted from it.

Mick Purdy

Yes Ed, and thats why Wes is an interesting fellow. A curious player in the assassination lore.

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy

If memeory serves me well and it may not, but I seem to recall the loading dock exit was mentioned by Wesley  in one of the you-tube interviews in this thread, it caused a stir back when it was discovered. I agree with Ed, sounds like the testimony of Truly's re: Given's sighting.

More and more it seems Wesley just doesn't want the truth to surface about his movements after the assassination. There would seem to be at least 4-5 different versions of what he claims took place after the shots. That to my mind is not misrembering, the arrest of Wes has 4-5 different versions too. He never was clear on how he came to get the job in at the TSBD in the first place let alone why he left Hunstville to come to the big smoke and sleep on a couch in a house full to the brim with people.

He is a key to this mess IMO. He is a man whom I believe could help put an end to the lies. He knows a lot more than he is willing to tell IMO. 

But time is our enemy.

Jake

I think your memory is serving well because I can also recall being flummoxed by his remarks. My brain always wants to make sense of things even when there is none so my only mental recourse was to wonder if he meant that gate that opens onto the Elm St extension (the original Elm St).

I was reminded of that also by Barto's movie. I froze it on the plan of the first floor. I've heard that gate referred to as leading to parking, but my read of the plan has the gate leading to a loading dock that appears to have served the train loading/unloading activities while the actual vehicle parking area appears as an open sided shed accessed from the west side parking lot / train yard, not by driving through the gate. Was that gate locked I wonder. Did Oswald wait behind it for a vehicle to come by then ran out and down the lawn, a la Craig? Maybe someone locked it behind him at that point. That little area in there would have made a nice little out of the way operations node of sorts.

So maybe LHO waited for Baker and Truly to chat and pass, then went inside from the steps (PM position), through the shipping dept on the first floor, out a west side door, onto the train loading dock, hopped down from dock, waited behind that gate, and then exited through it. Perhaps that is how WF saw him "cross Elm from the loading dock". It's all I can think of to make sense of it.

That shipping and receiving operation was quite the little complex what with the train access on one side (the west side train access), trucks and pedestrians on the Houston street side (the east side access), the shipping/receiving/elevator warehousing floor area located in between them, and finally that added gateway and access point to the train side loading area from the Elm Street (south) side.

Ed Ledoux

Jake, That would be Lovelady's area. He unloaded and drove the truck. Cops ran up and closed that gate when they finally surrounded the building. Wes was saying he saw him crossing Houston as if he was going to go catch Cecil's bus SEVEN blocks from where Cecil said he picked up a man...

Mick Purdy

Jake,

I'm not going mad and neither are you.............

CSPAN.

http://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-101/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-2

Watch from 12-40 through to 15-52. My goodness Wesley is full of it. He can't help himself. It borders on some form of compulsive behaviour disorder. I wonder what has triggered such story telling.

Stan Dane wrote:Ed Ledoux

Jake, That would be Lovelady's area. He unloaded and drove the truck. Cops ran up and closed that gate when they finally surrounded the building. Wes was saying he saw him crossing Houston as if he was going to go catch Cecil's bus SEVEN blocks from where Cecil said he picked up a man...

Jake

Thanks Ed. So the gate wasn't locked. That patsy wasn't very tidy was he? First he leaves his pop bottle and lunch sack on the steps, then he leaves the gate to the loading dock open. Other things on his mind I suppose. Looks as though the Cops picked up the litter and closed the gate for him though.

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy

Jake,

I'm not going mad and neither are you.............

CSPAN.

http://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-101/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-2

Watch from 12-40 through to 15-52. My goodness Wesley is full of it. He can't help himself. It borders on some form of compulsive behaviour disorder. I wonder what has triggered such story telling.

Jake

Thanks Mick. That interview is amazing. So GM asks WF did he see Oswald after the assassination. His level eyed answer with his hand covering his mouth is "Ah no". Then WF goes on to describe how he did see him after the assassination "walking along the side of the building from the rear loading dock" (GM actually puts words those words in WF's mouth). Plus WF is on the steps no? X-ray vision is great for seeing through buildings like that because that side of the building (the side facing Houston) is around the corner from WF. He does say Lee crosses Houston then Elm, not Elm then Houston, which would make a lot more sense from his vantage point since from the steps Oswald would need to use the cross walks; first across Houston where WF could see him from the steps, then across Elm on the east side of Houston, but then he's heading for Main St on Houston. That does not sound to me like it's following the program. 

But here's the part that got me most really: At 13-03 when he says "When we were...(pauses)". Look at his jaw clamp. I mean he grinds his teeth. It's like he just almost stepped off the cliff but stops himself just in the nick of time. "We" may have meant -Lee and Me-, perhaps. He then repeats "When we were" and gives it the context of meaning he and other people in general. Nice catch perhaps. Whew! Close call? Maybe.

Paul Francisco Paso

Wes finds it difficult to stay on script even though he's had 52 years to practice it. Frazier has to act to save himself and it doesn't help that he is not a natural like Ruth Paine for example. She is a natural born liar.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy

Jake,

I'm not going mad and neither are you.............

CSPAN.

http://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-101/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-2

Watch from 12-40 through to 15-52. My goodness Wesley is full of it. He can't help himself. It borders on some form of compulsive behaviour disorder. I wonder what has triggered such story telling.

Jake

Thanks Mick. That interview is amazing. So GM asks WF did he see Oswald after the assassination. His level eyed answer with his hand covering his mouth is "Ah no". Then WF goes on to describe how he did see him after the assassination "walking along the side of the building from the rear loading dock" (GM actually puts words those words in WF's mouth). Plus WF is on the steps no? X-ray vision is great for seeing through buildings like that because that side of the building (the side facing Houston) is around the corner from WF. He does say Lee crosses Houston then Elm, not Elm then Houston, which would make a lot more sense from his vantage point since from the steps Oswald would need to use the cross walks; first across Houston where WF could see him from the steps, then across Elm on the east side of Houston, but then he's heading for Main St on Houston. That does not sound to me like it's following the program. 

But here's the part that got me most really: At 13-03 when he says "When we were...(pauses)". Look at his jaw clamp. I mean he grinds his teeth. It's like he just almost stepped off the cliff but stops himself just in the nick of time. "We" may have meant -Lee and Me-, perhaps. He then repeats "When we were" and gives it the context of meaning he and other people in general. Nice catch perhaps. Whew! Close call? Maybe.

Mick Purdy

But here's the part that got me most really: At 13-03 when he says "When we were...(pauses)". Look at his jaw clamp. I mean he grinds his teeth. It's like he just almost stepped off the cliff but stops himself just in the nick of time. "We" may have meant -Lee and Me-, perhaps. He then repeats "When we were" and gives it the context of meaning he and other people in general. Nice catch perhaps. Whew! Close call? Maybe.

Think Wesley may have come awfully close to slipping up. I'm glad you mentioned this Jake, you were not on your own. I had ear marked this "grab" too. Perhaps I'm guilty of over thinking, but then again Wesley cannot keep up with his own deception. I'm inclined to believe he might have been referring to Lee after all when using the "we."

As I've stated earlier in this thread, I would put money on Frazier leaving with Oswald.......

Ed Ledoux

Me too Mick. Forget the Rambler, disinfo and hasn't been shown Oswald was by the pergola to hop a ride in it. Unless that is Wesley's new job, divert away from any other exit by LHO and steer that exit towards the bus. Were the Paine's phone records kept? Was there a call from Oak Cliff to the Paine residence about 1-ish. It would not be a local call but a toll call and recorded.

This would lend credence to Oswald being dropped off and calling to meet with Marina to buy some shoes for the kids. If there was a call and Lee had to wait for them to finish the laundry etc. he would waste time by watching a movie. If he was tailed or Wes told Linnie, and Linnie blabbed to the cops about this then yes they would have invaded the Texas Theater as they did. Or Ruth intercepted the call, and she blabbed that Lee was waiting at the theater to IPD.

Timing and phone records would make a case for this.
Sorry just thinking with my fingers...

Mick Purdy

Bringing this over from Prayer Man thread.

Thanks to Goban and Faroe.

steely dan at November 28, 2015 at 10:45 PM
Geronimo, i think it was Goban, who first brought this up in the old forums PM thread.
Thanks for the acknowledgment, Steely. My observation about Ball’s interruption of Lovelady was my first post in a JFK forum. That detail may have been previously unnoticed by anyone else because it was only when the Sean Murphy EF Prayer Man debate really took off in 2013 that it became important.
 
I know I should be doing penance for my recent mega blooper but I can’t help commenting on an article about a recent interview with BW Frazier in the Daily Mail that was posted by Ed Ledoux:
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3326233/I-drove-Lee-Harvey-Oswald-book-depository-don-t-believe-shot-JFK-52-years-assassination-Oswald-s-friend-says-convinced-patsy-real-gunman-grassy-knoll.html#ixzz3s4BOE9sK
 
In the article Frazier is quoted as saying, ‘I stood on the steps at the front of the building and had a good view as the motorcade went passed.(sic)'
 
The next sentence is: “He wasn't aware of where Oswald was standing and never saw him again that day.”
 
That sentence clearly implies that Frazier knew that Oswald was standing in or around the TSBD doorway at the time of the assassination but that he didn’t know where exactly he was standing.
 
That sense is reinforced by the word “again” in the second clause of the sentence. The word “again” clearly implies that Frazier saw Oswald in or around the TSBD doorway around the time the motorcade passed.
 
Frazier seems to be covering the angles here. He can plausibly claim to not know where exactly Oswald was standing when the motorcade passed by because at that instant he would be watching the motorcade and be unaware of Oswald’s precise location.
 
That may also explain why he told the Warren Commission he was standing one step down from the landing rather than at the front edge of the landing as indicated in the Darnell film: by placing himself farther forward than he really was, he was giving himself “plausible deniability” should evidence ever emerge that Oswald was standing in the north west corner of the TSBD doorway and he could claim not to have seen him (Oswald) there.
 
On three separate occasions over the past two years or so that Frazier has made comments that have a bearing on the Prayer Man issue he has undeniably confirmed, albeit indirectly, that Prayer Man is Oswald.

December 5, 2015 at 8:06 PM Flag Quote & Reply
 
Faroe Islander
Member
Posts: 51
Interesting info from Sprague in 1967 he tells us that PM is taking a photo ? or is it somebody else

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62434#relPageId=19&tab=page

Ed Ledoux

And another lil birdie was just inside the doorway Mick, he was never called to answer before the WC. He said no one left the building after the shooting and all warehouse employees were dismissed at 1:15 pm.

Mick Purdy

Which lil birdie are you referring to?

Ed Ledoux



Linda posted this and it makes my point perfectly.

Lewis has to qualify his statement about standing in the Vestibule and Oswald not standing with him at the time the shots were fired. Of course, by then Oswald had stepped out into the corner.

Can we get the view FROM PM's position please.

Stan Dane

Here's a SWAG at a view from PM's position using the only picture I know that looks out of the TSBD entrance from the inside. The other TSBD entrance image showed the little nook one step down where the pop bottle was found, so I stuck PM there for reference. I did my best guess placement of BWF from Darnell, and using a height of 74 inches for BWF and 69 inches for LHO – and subtracting another 7 inches for PM standing one step below the landing – I ratioed the size of the figures accordingly. Again, just a rough SWAG. 

Stan Dane wrote:Ed Ledoux



Linda posted this and it makes my point perfectly.

Lewis has to qualify his statement about standing in the Vestibule and Oswald not standing with him at the time the shots were fired. Of course, by then Oswald had stepped out into the corner.

Can we get the view FROM PM's position please.

Barto

This is according Hoover's set of 6 questions for all TSBD employees. One of the questions was whether they saw LHO at that time. This matter was tabled by Weisberg many moons ago about the idiocy of asking a question about LHO whereabouts with that "at that time" added on.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Ed Ledoux



Linda posted this and it makes my point perfectly.

Lewis has to qualify his statement about standing in the Vestibule and Oswald not standing with him at the time the shots were fired. Of course, by then Oswald had stepped out into the corner.

Can we get the view FROM PM's position please.

Barto

This is according Hoover's set of 6 questions for all TSBD employees. One of the questions was whether they saw LHO at that time. This matter was tabled by Weisberg many moons ago about the idiocy of asking a question about LHO whereabouts with that "at that time" added on.

Mick Purdy

What is odd is his interview with Larry Sneed in the book No more Silence. Page 84-89. Does he seem to infer his location at the time of the shooting as inside the door? Not outside?

Due to my lack of excitement, I was one of the last ones out of the building before the motorcade arrived. That’s why I wasn’t outside near the street like most everybody else. Instead, when I came out, I was standing with some ladies from up in the offices right in the middle of the steps in front of the building that led to the sidewalk beyond the glass door. As the motorcade came by, I remember seeing Kennedy brushing his hair back. That’s when all hell broke loose! I heard BOOM! ... BOOM! ... BOOM! with the second and third shots being close together. The people down in front of me hit the ground then everybody started running toward the grassy knoll.

ROY E  LEWIS EYEWITNESS 81

Apparently the people assumed that whoever was doing the shooting might have been over there so I followed them. But before we could get far, a policeman stopped us and told us to go back into the building and wait. They came in and interviewed everybody and told us not to go back out anymore after that. I don’t know if he did it on his own or for the police, but I do remember Truly calling off the names of everybody from a list that worked there. That was on the first floor where a few of us were gathered. But since we could come and go at lunch, you could do whatever you wanted as long as you were back in time. So not everyone was there. The day of the assassination I don’t recall seeing Oswald. If I did, it would have been early that morning; afterwards, I didn’t see him at all. 

It certainly seems  slightly more ambiguous than his 03/18/64 FBI statement regarding his location at the time of the shots.

Ed Ledoux

ROY EDWARD LEWIS EYEWITNESS

Due to my lack of excitement, I was one of the last ones out of the building before the motorcade arrived. That’s why I wasn’t outside near the street like most everybody else. Instead, when I came out, I was standing with some ladies from up in the offices right in the middle of the steps in front of the building that led to the sidewalk beyond the glass door. As the motorcade came by, I remember seeing Kennedy brushing his hair back. That’s when all hell broke loose! I heard BOOM! ... BOOM! ... BOOM! with the second and third shots being close together. The people down in front of me hit the ground then everybody started running toward the grassy knoll. Apparently the people assumed that whoever was doing the shooting might have been over there so I followed them. But before we could get far, a policeman stopped us and told us to go back into the building and wait. They came in and interviewed everybody and told us not to go back out anymore after that. But since we could come and go at lunch, you could do whatever you wanted as long as you were back in time. I don’t know if he did it on his own or for the police, but I do remember Truly calling off the names of everybody from a list that worked there. That was on the first floor where a few of us were gathered. So not everyone was there. The day of the assassination I don’t recall seeing Oswald. If I did, it would have been early that morning; afterwards, I didn’t see him at all.

Roy is saying he was one? of the last out (was PM the other), but places himself inside, so he then says he was in the middle of the steps with some ladies but names none. Hmm he is not being forthcoming about whom he was with and where he was. He does recall Truly calling names from a list, would that be the list recently put together by the DPD, and Truly can't use that PA system huh? 

Mick Purdy

Apparently the people assumed that whoever was doing the shooting might have been over there so I followed them. But before we could get far, a policeman stopped us and told us to go back into the building and wait.

Buell wasn't interested enough, all he could think of was lunch in the basement. 

Mick Purdy

From Piper Williams and Givens:

Mick Purdy

Great work as usual mate. It is fascinating isn't it, when you get stuck into the nuts and bolts of the movements of certain individuals how clear it becomes of the shenanigans which followed. Makes me very suspicious of Dougherty indeed. I have a very strong feeling he was up to his eyeballs in the planting of the throw-downs and possibly even more. Pure speculation of course but there's enough here to make a case for that conclusion IMO. Now who is the man in that white shirt.

Greg:

Yeah, I think there are only 3 possibilities for the person met on the 4th floor - the real shooter, Dougherty, or no one at all.
 
I've been reading up on police interrogation methods and witness interviews and have a much deeper understanding of what the cops did and how they did it now as far as the frame goes. It makes me sick, but even more determined that this case needs to be reopened as a normal cold case with proven cold case procedures and protocols and run by people withouut a dog in the fight.
 
One thing I will say. I now believe 100% that Frazier was threatened as a co-conspirator. I did have some doubt before, but not now.
 
However, that does not explain (away) everything to do with Frazier. He did not capilulate on the bag size despite the threats, yet claims now that the reason he never mentioned seeing Oswald leaving 10 minutes after the assassination from behind the building was that he was too afraid too. The fact is that early on in the piece, they hadn't put the case together, so telling them about it was not putting himself in danger at all. At that time, it was nuetral information. We even have Curry telling the media that Oswald was seen leaving in a car and they were looking for the driver - so if anything - Frazier's info fit with what they had. Hell, they were still looking at a commie conspiracy at that stage. The bag size was what he should have capilulated on if he was scared...
 
I'm more inclined to go with Baker on the 4th floor encounter, from memory its from his first day statement. Well before the musical chairs were in play. If thats true then that's the guy walking away from the stairs on the 4th in the tan jacket or something similar. And that means white/light shirtman is either JD or another stranger in the building. No?
So yes 3 possibilities for the 4th floor.

Greg:

One thing I will say. I now believe 100% that Frazier was threatened as a co-conspirator. I did have some doubt before, but not now.

Mick:

I think this would go a long way in explaining why I believe Frazier took Oswald to the Texas theater after the shots were fired. Think about that for a moment. It makes sense. He would have been targeted as the getaway man, if your hunch is right, he was being accused of aiding the assassin. Remember Wesley lied about his whereabouts after the event. Why? His lies are not misremembering. Think about all the various versions he's told us over the journey of what he did immediately following the assassination and the departure from the TSBD. He is absolutely unaccounted for approximately 3-5 hours and has lied about what he did do during these unaccounted hours. Why?

And remember this too, and I may have my detractors on this, but if you do not believe in the paper bag story told by Wesley and Linnie Mae (the only two persons to see the bag) then it goes without saying Lee was set-up by Wes and Linnie, and it means something else too. It certainly means Linnie Mae had foreknowledge of that sack, and in particular the sack which would be discovered in at the TSBD. Putting these things together to my mind creates a powerful case for their involvement in some way in the framing of LHO.
 
So yes, if Wesley was really accused by the DPD it still fits with the above IMHO.

Having said all that, one has to ask why it was that Frazier was called back after being released by the DPD supposedly to take the lie detector test at 9.00 pm. No matter we know he was called back. It's what happened in those 3 hours that is of much interest to my mind. And about sometime after midnight 3 hours or so later he is released unconditionally, It strikes me as odd. Remember this too he was arrested, the place he was residing was searched and some of his belongings were taken into custody.

No matter what anyone believes or makes of all this Wesley Frazier has some explaining to do, that's for certain IMHO.
If there's no sack, no walk through the carpark with Oswald, and no account for his whereabouts after the shots, then IMO he should be quizzed.

It simply is no longer good enough for him to say there was a sack, or he was with Oswald in the carpark and nowhere good enough to simply say I don't remember where I was after the shots.

Mick Purdy

Assuming there is no sack then for me that's the proof of Wes and Linnie's involvement. I absolutely agree he was intimidated, but this is where I may differ from what the rest of the gang think.
 
I believe 100% that Frazier and Linnie Mae set Oswald up, I have read their statements, testimonies and interviews from over the years to death, and they smell rotten to the core.
 
PM and Frazier in my mind cuts to the core of the Frazier paradigm. He is less than 4-5 feet away from PM is not blind sided by anything or anyone just after the biggest event in his life occurred. To say he can't remember whom PM is is an insult to all rational minded people. Logic dictates he knows, and by extension his refusal to tell us who PM is can only be taken IMO as proof he does know who the person was. The fact he has not nominated a stranger or anybody else other than Oswald is of itself a dead give away to my mind.
 
So yes he was given a going over to be sure, but with good reason IMO, he was involved in some way. But perhaps by midnight or just a little afterward as they were interrogating Frazier the word had come through that Oswald had been charged on both counts and he was "our man" and acted alone without accomplices.....

Wesley Frazier was a lucky man that night in my opinion, and he knows that even today.

Mick Purdy

Mick Purdy
Goban Saor at December 14, 2015 at 7:13 AM
Barto at December 14, 2015 at 4:56 AM
Goban Saor at December 14, 2015 at 3:59 AM
Barto at December 14, 2015 at 3:04 AM
Like Richard "Gumshoe" Gilbride, Lee Kania talks bollox and his utter rubbish beliefs that the 2nd floor lunch room encounter actually happened. He joins the Albert "Dean Man" Doyle's que......
And where is the tape / transcript of that BWF interview, if there is none of that then there was no interview..........................
It's nice to see that a few posters at that place are actually taking care of that 2nd floor mess once and for all.
 
Have you missed the point I’ve been making, Barto?
 
Why should a man holding a royal flush worry about an opponent holding a pair of twos?
 
It doesn’t matter that Frazier has claimed he didn’t see Oswald on the steps. That claim is rendered meaningless by the demonstrably incredible claim that he didn’t see PM.
 
The latter claim is our royal flush but nobody seems to be interested.

Owww Goban, I did go on the piss last night and had several sleeps today but I did not miss your point since I have mentioned this before myself as well. The Darnell film clearly shows PM and BWF interacting. I was merely responding to the screen shot.
Oops, sorry, Barto. If I knew the fragility of your condition I would have been less "robust".
 
Yes, nobody can reasonably deny that Frazier saw PM. Therefore, Frazier’s recent denial that he saw PM makes it possible to set a very simple test. This consists of asking anyone who says PM is not Oswald if they believe Frazier was telling the truth when he said he didn’t see PM.
 
If they answer Yes, they are exposing themselves as disingenuous gobshites with whom it’s not worth discussing anything.
 
If they answer No, they must accept the unavoidable corollary that PM is Oswald. If they don’t accept that corollary, they are likewise exposing themselves as disingenuous gobshites with whom it’s not worth discussing anything.

Amen Goban!
Mick:

Thats it in a nutshell and said beautifully too. I have been beating this drum for some time now.

Assuming there is no sack then for me that's the proof of Wes and Linnie's involvement. I absolutely agree he was intimidated, but this is where I may differ from what the rest of the gang think.
I believe 100% that Frazier and Linnie Mae set Oswald up, I have read their statements, testimonies and interviews from over the years to death, and they smell rotten to the core.
PM and Frazier in my mind cuts to the core of the Frazier paradigm. He is less than 4-5 feet away from PM is not blind sided by anything or anyone just after the biggest event in his life occurred. To say he can't remember whom PM is is an insult to all rational minded people. Logic dictates he knows, and by extension his refusal to tell us who PM is can only be taken IMO as proof he does know who the person was. The fact he has not nominated a stranger or anybody else other than Oswald is of itself a dead give away to my mind.
So yes he was given a going over to be sure, but with good reason IMO, he was involved in some way. But perhaps by midnight or just a little afterward as they were interrogating Frazier the word had come through that Oswald had been charged on both counts and he was "our man" and acted alone without accomplices.....
Wesley Frazier was a lucky man that night in my opinion, and he knows that even today.
 
Mick:
 
I think this would go a long way in explaining why I believe Frazier took Oswald to the Texas theater after the shots were fired. Think about that for a moment. It makes sense. He would have been targeted as the getaway man, if your hunch is right, he was being accused of aiding the assassin. Remember Wesley lied about his whereabouts after the event. Why? His lies are not misremembering. Think about all the various versions he's told us over the journey of what he did immediately following the assassination and the departure from the TSBD. He is absolutely unaccounted for approximately 3-5 hours and has lied about what he did do during these unaccounted hours. Why?
And remember this too, and I may have my detractors on this, but if you do not believe in the paper bag story told by Wesley and Linnie Mae (the only two persons to see the bag) then it goes without saying Lee was set-up by Wes and Linnie, and it means something else too.
It certainly means Linnie Mae had foreknowledge of that sack, and in particular the sack which would be discovered in at the TSBD.
Putting these things together to my mind creates a powerful case for their involvement in some way in the framing of LHO.
So yes, if Wesley was really accused by the DPD it still fits with the above IMHO.

Having said all that, one has to ask why it was that Frazier was called back after being released by the DPD supposedly to take the lie detector test at 9.00 pm. No matter we know he was called back. It's what happened in those 3 hours that is of much interest to my mind.
And about sometime after midnight 3 hours or so later he is released unconditionally, It strikes me as odd.
Remember this too he was arrested, the place he was residing was searched and some of his belongings were taken into custody.

No matter what anyone believes or makes of all this Wesley Frazier has some explaining to do, thats for certain IMHO.
If there's no sack, no walk through the carpark with Oswald, and no account for his whereabouts after the shots, then IMO he should be quizzed.
It simply is no longer good enough for him to say there was a sack, or he was with Oswald in the carpark and nowhere good enough to simply say I don't remember where I was after the shots.

And it's certainly nowhere good enough to make the claim he did not observe PM, Darnell frames prove he did!
 
If you don't believe in the sack BS then Wesley is implicated. Period! To cut him some slack on this is ludicrous.
Of course if you subscribe to the sack story and the BS drive in to work, along with the walk-in through the carpark with Oswald, and the basement and lunch BS and the "I didn't see PM" BS and the "I went straight home/No I went to the hospital BS and finally the arrest and interrogation BS stories then by all means cut him all the slack you want.
 
I've simply grown so tired of reading about the woe is me man for far too long, I don't buy it!
It's irrelevant, but Wesley perjured himself in the Clay Shaw trial, and that's thanks to the Shields HSCA interview.
We know that today, pity it was not examined more thoroughly way back then.
 
End of Rant!

Mick Purdy

Member
Posts: 1006
Paul McGurkenfarklein at December 14, 2015 at 2:35 PM
Glad to have a discussion with you bro. That's what its all about. I want to ask you Mick at what point do you think Frazier started packing his hole? I reckon he would have got on the phone to his sister when Oswald was first suspected. Probably before 3 pm.
Thanks mate.
 
That's a great question and for me a perplexing one too.
 
Our different views on Wes's wittingness makes it hard to align in this regard.
But I have little or no doubt that Wes either popped into see his sister at home, met her at a prearranged location or used a phone to talk with her some time after the event. In Adamcik's report he states Randle had driven up to the Paine house to drop the dime on LHO. She had been out and about one would assume. She would not have driven from her house to the Paines. She also Knew where Frazier was at 3.00 pm at the Irving professional center but told the cops he was at Parkland. She either wittingly or unwittingly bought her brother at least another couple of hours time.
So Randle knew where he was at 3.00 pm, she must have spoken with him, that much is certain.
Any mention of the suspicious sack at three in the afternoon is many hours before it gets a mention publicly, in fact it may not have been mentioned that day.
If you're right and Frazier is unwitting then all eyes should be placed on Linnie Mae and the husband William Randle.
 
Maybe you're right, maybe Wes only puts two and two together after the sister an he had met.
Timing is awfully tight on this scenario though, but anythings possible.
 
One thing I've learned from this is never say never.
 
Cheers Mate
December 14, 2015 at 3:16 PM Flag Quote & Reply
 
Paul McGurkenfarklein
Member
Posts: 466 The timing is tight Mick but its probably safe to assume the first thing he is going to do once he realises his situation is to call his family. Frazier would have been petrified at that stage. The curtain rod story backed up by his sister is what was decided. That's how I see it, Mick. I never say never either when it comes to other possibilities with this case. Never.
December 14, 2015 at 9:50 PM Flag Quote & Reply
 
Terry Martin
Member
Posts: 913
Any chance that BWF's dad was calling the shots from his hospital bed? Trying to save the family and all?
 
We still don't know half of what's going on here but if we keep chipping away at it, someone might come up with the right angle.
December 15, 2015 at 1:10 AM Flag Quote & Reply
 
Mick Purdy
Member
Posts: 1006
Terry Martin at December 15, 2015 at 1:10 AM
Any chance that BWF's dad was calling the shots from his hospital bed? Trying to save the family and all?
 
We still don't know half of what's going on here but if we keep chipping away at it, someone might come up with the right angle.
Terry,
 
That's something I've thought of often, the only reason I've not taken it seriously (and maybe I should have) is that there is a story in the public domain of the Step father being a drunk and abusive (source is the old ROKC forum). I've always been of the mind if that is true then why did Wes go and visit him. Maybe this part needs a going over.
 
I still remain convinced however that Wes and Oz didn't arrive together at the TSBD, thanks to Shanklin's report and Shields HSCA I/V.
I still don't believe there was a sack.
And I definitely don't believe Frazier walked through that parking lot 50 feet back from Lee, IMO he was on his own.
And I still think he's hiding something straight after the shots.
So if I'm right (and I certainly may not be) he is more than just covering his ass, he is a player. IMO
 
December 15, 2015 at 8:43 AM Flag Quote & Reply
 
Terry Martin
Member
Posts: 913
Definitely a player, Mick. We also still need to find out who drove Lee to work that morning and why Wes was late getting to work, that of all days.
 
Jake
Member
Posts: 208
Mick and Terry, if I may speculate on an angle, and this is based purely on my interpretation of PM as being Oswald, then if Frazier was involved, it was probably at the same, semiconscious level as Oswald's. In other words, was he caught with Oswald in the frame up, and knew Oswald was on an operation that had some ostensible goal (like framing someone else for the attempt) that turned out to be false, when the real plan was to frame Oswald for the killing?
 
So, now look at the time after Oswald is in the theater and Frazier is riding home only to hear of Tippet, and would then begin to fear the worst for himself and for Oswald. To digress a bit, perhaps one or both of them recognized their exposure in this hypothetical operation beforehand. Would Oswald in particular, being the older and more experienced operator have recognized that he was fully dependent upon the good faith and follow through of his higher ups to support whatever it was he was executing that day? Did he take precautions perhaps? What if Oswald passed along something like a camera or a roll of film to Frazier the moment he saw that JFK was actually assassinated, along with instructions that if anything happens to him, keep it safe for the protection of both their families?
 
Recall the 6th floor museum interview of BWF by GM that Linda posted, in which GM seems to be probing for information about a camera and pictures in the context of his being out on the steps that day. That is really quite strange.
 
Back to Frazier riding home; might he have had something in his possession that he secreted away (in a safe place, a bank box, or even with a lawyer maybe) that he has used successfully to defend himself and the others against retaliation or manipulation or whatever?
 
It's all hair brained speculation on my part and if nothing else, it makes a good story; but the flow of events is very strange as you point out so well, and if it's Oswald on the steps, then anything is possible.
 
I do feel sympathetic to Frazier under any scenario. He was a 19 year old kid in raw survival mode. Whatever actually happened, he's had to live with it ever since and that has to be a tough row to hoe no matter what.
December 15, 2015 at 9:52 AM Flag Quote & Reply
 
Paul McGurkenfarklein
Member
Posts: 466 If Wes was a player he wasn't a very good one. Hanging out with Oswald on the steps of TSBD steps just after the shots is not exactly a major league play. Nor is saying he drove in Oswald that day with a package. I think Frazier played his own game when he was in trouble.
December 15, 2015 at 10:02 AM Flag Quote & Reply
 
Mick Purdy
Member
Posts: 1006
All great points, it serves us well having such a diverse range of views, we can nut some of this out.
Maybe that's why we should take a closer look at Frazier's sister and the husband and that whole living arrangement in Irving much more closely. Its been mentioned before now that maybe Frazier was a pawn in some of the Randle's parlour games.
As Paul and Jake have shown, anything is possible.
 
December 15, 2015 at 10:40 AM Flag Quote & Reply
 
Mick Purdy
Member
Posts: 1006
Terry Martin at December 15, 2015 at 9:37 AM
Definitely a player, Mick. We also still need to find out who drove Lee to work that morning and why Wes was late getting to work, that of all days.
 
I agree! Whilst others may differ with this view, I find myself convinced after reading the material I've read that BWF is involved in some way in the Framing of Lee.
For me its the little clues, which IMO cannot be ignored or brushed aside.
Its the ambiguity of Paine's and Marina's WC testimony as to when Lee might have left for work that morning. It's the acknowledgement from Marina's WC testimony, that Linnie Mae might have driven Lee to work prior to the 22nd or at least to the bus stop. That's important.
Its the fact Lee chose this day of all days to trudge up to the Randle house, for the first time breaking the pattern of him being picked up by Wesley at the Paine residence.
Its the fact that the story from both Randle and Frazier on Lee's walk to their house is full of holes. That not another living soul was reported to have witnessed Lee with a sack.
The fact the stories of Frazier's and Randle's version of what they saw Lee doing with the sack are at odds
 
Its Randles ratting on Lee at 3.00 pm before she could have possibly known of a sack being found inside the TSBD
Its about the fictional walk into the TSBD as told by Wesley, the one where Lee is 50 feet ahead of him, and his waiting back revving the engine.
Its Wes's shifting stories after the event.............IMO they're all little clues.
IMO they cannot be swept aside
 
I believe Shanklin's report along with Edward Shields, a totally disconnected and uninterested party gave us the biggest clue there is that Wesley did not drive Oswald to work. Shanklin reported Oswald was spotted in the DR at 7.45 am or near enough to, and Wesley was spotted sometime just after 8 driving into the parking lot.
This is hugely significant, because this is at odds with Wesley being unwittingly involved in some way.
If this is true, then Wesley lied, and IMO this could not have been to save his butt. If this is true then he lied to cover something up.....
This is not just some long package curtain rod story to distance himself from Oswald, this if true it is a bare faced lie which would tend to implicate him in a much more serious way than just simply covering his ass IMO
 
Terry Martin
Member
Posts: 913
A lot of people surmise that Oswald was blind-sided by what happened. He was involved in something else at the TSBD and expected his handlers to pull some strings or whatever.
 
Perhaps Wes was in the same predicament. He was there for something else and when the sky fell, he was grasping at straws to save his skin. Since everyone knew he was close to Ozzie, he had to devise a distraction.
 
Devising a carry-on for Oswald almost makes me think HE had a carry-on and was trying to re-associate it in everyone's mind to Oswald. "No that wasn't ME you saw carrying anything, it was Lee." (even if no one recalled either carrying anything)
 
If we keep examining all the various angles, something's going to fall into place... for someone.