Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part A

First topic message reminder :

This is full rebuild of the hugely popular thread created by Mick Purdy at the Webs forum in February 2015. – Stan

Mick Purdy

I believe Buell Wesley Frazier lied about seeing Lee Oswald with a package, a package two feet long on the morning of Friday November 22nd 1963.

I believe Linnie Mae Randle lied about seeing Oswald with a package, a package 27 inches long on the Morning of 22nd Nov 1963.

I believe both Linnie Mae Randle and Buell Wesley Frazier fabricated the curtain rod story.

I think there is ample evidence in their WC testimonies, affidavits and FBI interviews to support each of these contentions.

I have also come to the conclusion (after having a closer look at the testimonies and the various reports), that Buell Wesley Frazier lied about another crucially important matter that day. In my opinion the totality of the evidence suggests Frazier lied with regards to driving Lee Harvey Oswald to work that fateful morning.

Take a moment to reflect upon the importance of that drive to the case against Oswald before reading on.

The story was very likely fabricated not merely to have Oswald appear to carry a sack into work – but also to create the illusion of Oswald carrying a rifle. This conclusion is drawn from a study of the WC testimonies of both Randle and Frazier regarding Oswald, the package and his alleged arrival at the Randle residence that morning. Ten or more neighbours considered to be best placed to spot pedestrian movement in the vicinity were interviewed by the FBI as to whether they saw Oswald carrying a package from the Paine’s home to the Randle home. To a person, they stated they had not seen Oswald that morning – with or without any suspicious package which the police on more than one occasion, described as being similar in size and shape to a rifle case.

Frazier’s WC and Shaw trial testimony regarding the journey into work with Oswald appears rehearsed. Any questions relating to the “sack” or what was said in the car on the way in is met with what sounds very much like scripted answers that have become Frazier’s Lore. The sack, the curtain rods, the weather, and my favourite, Oswald’s kids, are IMO all part of the charade. Away from the small talk and banter about kids, he constantly flip flopped on testimony in a manner redolent with patterns of deceit.

Frazier’s WC testimony with regard to his arrival at work is at complete odds with the HSCA interview of Edward Shields. Though it could be argued Shields, unlike Frazier, was not under oath, and therefore is a witness of lesser value, the fact is that Shields was as close as you can get to a disinterested party merely reporting for the first what he had heard. Sadly, it took well over a decade for him to receive any relevant questions. In any event, it is highly unlikely he ever realized the import of his information.
  
From the HSCA interview of Shields
 

SHIELDS: I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...Well, I was down on the floor when they hollered out and said and the answer he gave them, I don't know, I think he said: "I dropped him off at the building." Now, whoever it was hollering asked him, I don't know.
DAY: This is the morning of the assassination?
SHIELDS: Mm-hmm.
DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."
SHIELDS: Yes.
DAY: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?
SHIELDS: No I didn’t.

 
To summarize what we have so far… no one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald walk to the Frazier residence that morning. No one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald in Frazier’s car that morning – except Frazier himself. No one saw Lee Harvey Oswald that morning with any package except Wes and Linnie Mae.

Frazier also testified that he let Oswald get well ahead on the walk from the car park to the loading dock entrance. But in the form of Edward Shields, we have a potential reason for Frazier to construct that story.

In the above two short paragraphs alone, we have three “firsts” – firsts that are needed for the official story to hold. Oswald had never walked to the Randle residence for his lift before. He was always picked up at the Paine house. Oswald had never taken a long package to work before. Oswald had never neglected to take a packed lunch before. Oswald had never even needed a lift on a Friday morning before. Frazier had never let Oswald walk ahead of him from the car park before. They had always walked in together. That is a lot of “firsts” – all reliant on a very tight little knit of witnesses outside of which, no corroboration exists. Nobody else, not one person can verify Frazier’s version of events in Irving except for his sister. At the other end of the journey at the TSBD parking lot, we rely solely on Frazier. It beggars belief that there are no other witnesses. That walk was at least 2 and 1/2 blocks long. Shields and Givens smash his fairy-tale apart.

This “story” IMO has the same stench wafting around it, like the rest of the days fables contain.

The bus trip, the cab ride, the sack, the run, the walk, the ducking, the escape, the 2nd floor, the first floor, the sixth floor, the lunch bag, the rifle case, the back seat, the front seat, the white jacket the grey jacket, the gun, the revolver ……………
 
An alternative scenario

Postal Inspectors interviewed Mr and Mrs CP Schneider at 2707 West Fifth St in the early evening of November 22. Mr Schneider confirmed he had seen Lee Oswald in front of the 2515 residence at approximately 6:00pm of the previous evening. He also stated that a neighbour, Mrs Ed Roberts of 2519 West Fifth St had told him that Willie Randle, 2439 West Fifth St, had driven Oswald to work on the morning of November 22, and that Oswald was carrying a package large enough to have contained a rifle. (CD 296)

What sort of investigation is it that receives hearsay evidence such as the above and fails to follow up to confirm or refute it with the parties involved? WE are indeed, expected to believe that no follow up was done, because there is no evidence any follow up was done. Yet, there is actually circumstantial evidence that the authorities did believe that Randle was the man who gave the lift because that same night, the FBI was attempting to trace the origins of the scope in the names of Lee Oswald OR Willie Randall [sic]. (CD 87) It is virtually impossible to believe that the FBI would act on hearsay alone, when a few houses from where the hearsay was received, lived the person who had passed on that hearsay. You would almost have to believe that this “Willie Randle” lead was followed up and that it checked out given the ease with which such a lead could be checked out. To further complicate matters, the DPD already had Oswald’s alleged driver in custody. If Frazier truly was the driver, there would no reason at all to be checking on “Willy Randle/Randall” as a co-conspirator!

Randle had arrived in Austin at about 7:00pm on what was said to be work-related business in company with co-worker named Berry Caster. (FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 32, p44) It is between a 3 and 4 hour drive from Irving to Austin, so it is far from impossible that “Willie” drove Lee to work that morning on the basis that Frazier had already left.

Because of the holes in the official investigation, some conjecture is needed if we are to try understand the mess we have been left. What follows is some of my conjecture.

Frazier left that morning on his own – with the throwdown M-C rifle. The call from Givens of “where’s your rider?” was code giving Frazier the all clear to bring “the package” in, or was code for simply it’s clear to come inside.

Since Lee had missed his ride, Willie Randle offered to give him one, but needed to borrow Ruth’s car since his own was full of work gear for the trip to Austin later on. This leads to Oswald’s statement in front of Roger Craig concerning Craig’s description of a certain station wagon that "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."

Doesn’t that sound like someone talking about a car that was being driven by someone else?

I’d like to thank Greg Parker for his enormous support and encouragement.

Mick Purdy
 
I know this document has been looked at extensively in the past and in particular the following para:
 
"Charles Douglas Givens, Employee, TSBD, worked on sixth floor until about eleven thirty A.M. Left at this time going down on elevator. Saw Oswald on fifth floor as left going down. Oswald told him to close the gates when he got to first floor so Oswald could signal for elevator later. Givens stayed on first floor until twelve o'clock and then walked out of the building to watch the parade pass. Oswald was reading paper in the first floor domino room seven-fifty A.M. November twenty two last when Givens came to work."
 

 
Is there a real possibility that Shanklin reported Given's accurately with regards to Oswald's whereabouts that morning, especially the time of 7.50am. If Shanklin has reported accurately then Frazier's account is in jeopardy IMO.
 
The statement does seem reasonably unambiguous to me, in that it says clearly "when Given's came to work" at 7.50 am. I don't see how this could be mistaken for the 11.50 am.
 
Of course if this has been dealt with before now and I've missed that, then my apologies.

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy
 
I know this document has been looked at extensively in the past and in particular the following para:
 
"Charles Douglas Givens, Employee, TSBD, worked on sixth floor until about eleven thirty A.M. Left at this time going down on elevator. Saw Oswald on fifth floor as left going down. Oswald told him to close the gates when he got to first floor so Oswald could signal for elevator later. Givens stayed on first floor until twelve o'clock and then walked out of the building to watch the parade pass. Oswald was reading paper in the first floor domino room seven-fifty A.M. November twenty two last when Givens came to work."
 

 
Is there a real possibility that Shanklin reported Given's accurately with regards to Oswald's whereabouts that morning, especially the time of 7.50am. If Shanklin has reported accurately then Frazier's account is in jeopardy IMO.
 
The statement does seem reasonably unambiguous to me, in that it says clearly "when Given's came to work" at 7.50 am. I don't see how this could be mistaken for the 11.50 am.
 
Of course if this has been dealt with before now and I've missed that, then my apologies.

Smee
 
Interesting point Mick.
 
I wonder where Frazier would have dropped LHO off "...at the building..." as per Shields' HSCA testimony? Would it be the rear NE corner of the TSBD on Houston? If so, then it would make sense for LHO to enter via the rear entrance, per Dougherty:
 
Mr. BALL - Did you see Oswald come to work that morning?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes---when he first come into the door.
Mr. BALL - When he came in the door?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see him come in the door?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; I saw him when he first come in the door--yes.
Mr. BALL - Did he have anything in his hands or arms?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, not that I could see of.
Mr. BALL - About what time of day was that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - That was 8 o'clock.
Mr. BALL - That was about 8 o'clock?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What door did he come in?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, he came in the back door.
Mr. BALL - Where were you then?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I was---sitting on top of the wrapping table.

Based on the way Dougherty mangled the times at other points in his testimony and the fact that he agrees that this was "...about 8 o'clock.", then there is certainly room for maneuver in there!!...

Smee

From Givens' testimony:

Mr. BELIN. When you got to work on the morning of November 22, did you see him at all there or not?
Mr. GIVENS. 22d? That was on Friday, wasn't it?
Mr. BELIN. Friday; that is the day the President came by.
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, I saw him that day.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you see him first?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I first saw him on the first floor.
Mr BELIN. About what time was that?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, about 8:30.
Mr. BELIN. Now, let me ask you this. You got to work at a quarter to 8?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do between a quarter of 8 and 8:30? Where were
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I went upstairs. We went to work at 8 o'clock.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see him come into the domino room at all?
Mr. GIVENS. Not that morning, no, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BELIN. When did you leave the domino room to go up to the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. 8 o'clock.
Mr. BELIN.. At 8 o'clock?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. So you don't feel he came in the domino room before 8 o'clock?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; not that morning he didn't.

Does that mean that Givens went upstairs at 08:00, then came back down to the domino room at 08:30? Maybe he forgot his pack of cigarettes?

Givens' story of that day did seem to evolve and change as time went by...

Mick Purdy

Mr. BALL - Did you see Oswald come to work that morning?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes---when he first come into the door.
Mr. BALL - When he came in the door?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see him come in the door?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; I saw him when he first come in the door--yes.
Mr. BALL - Did he have anything in his hands or arms?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, not that I could see of.
Mr. BALL - About what time of day was that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - That was 8 o'clock.
Mr. BALL - That was about 8 o'clock?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What door did he come in?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, he came in the back door.
Mr. BALL - Where were you then?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I was---sitting on top of the wrapping table.
    
  making a paper sack!

Sorry.

Terry Martin

So, let me see if I understand this scenario at all.
 
Givens got to work at ~ 7:50 and saw Lee already in the Domino Room reading the paper, then went upstairs.
 
So, when did he look out the back and yell "Where's your rider?"
 
This sounds almost like Lee had gotten to work BEFORE Buell. So, he couldn't have simply missed his ride when Buell "left early" because Lee got there before him. Which must mean Lee was aware the day before that he would need another way in to work. (??) Unless, of course, Givens' original statement is wrong.

Or - quite likely - I am misunderstanding how all these pieces fit together.

Stan Dane wrote:Terry Martin

So, let me see if I understand this scenario at all.
 
Givens got to work at ~ 7:50 and saw Lee already in the Domino Room reading the paper, then went upstairs.
 
So, when did he look out the back and yell "Where's your rider?"
 
This sounds almost like Lee had gotten to work BEFORE Buell. So, he couldn't have simply missed his ride when Buell "left early" because Lee got there before him. Which must mean Lee was aware the day before that he would need another way in to work. (??) Unless, of course, Givens' original statement is wrong.

Or - quite likely - I am misunderstanding how all these pieces fit together.

Mick Purdy

No I'm with you Terry,

Its that dang line "Oswald was reading paper in the first floor domino room seven-fifty A.M. November twenty two last when Givens came to work."

When Givens came to work.......

So its either a very silly mistake in the transcription or its exactly what we're seeing. 

Of course the time could be out too. I don't know, its confusing.

Faroe Islander

When are these two statements taken? First statement is from November 23, maybe even taken on the 22?

I think Givens is saying he saw LHO reading a newspaper at 7:50 Friday morning, although the FBI report is leaving out the time 7:50!!! and only says the Domino room where the employees eat their lunch at 11:50 so it looked like he had seen LHO at 11:50 when he stated that he saw him at 7:50, the 7:50 time is right as the mistake is the other way so it seems like it is at 11:50 at least that is my very strong opinion.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=329092

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=62259&relPageId=49

Second statement is from april 8 1964:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/givens1.htm

Stan Dane wrote:Faroe Islander

When are these two statements taken? First statement is from November 23, maybe even taken on the 22?

I think Givens is saying he saw LHO reading a newspaper at 7:50 Friday morning, although the FBI report is leaving out the time 7:50!!! and only says the Domino room where the employees eat their lunch at 11:50 so it looked like he had seen LHO at 11:50 when he stated that he saw him at 7:50, the 7:50 time is right as the mistake is the other way so it seems like it is at 11:50 at least that is my very strong opinion.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=329092

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=62259&relPageId=49

Second statement is from april 8 1964:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/givens1.htm

Terry Martin

Quite an interesting evolution of Givens testimony.

First he sees Lee in the Domino Room reading the paper when he got there at 7:50am.Then in the FBI file of 11/23/63, he has the time moved to 11:50am, and by the time he gets to the WC testimony, he tells Belin that there was no Lee in the DR at any time in the day reading a newspaper or not. By the WC version, he sees Lee at that time by the elevator on floor six.

It was not just the people on the vestibule that wanted to distance themselves from Lee Oswald, persona non gratis.

In the first MFF link, above, dated 11/23, it has "Givens said that during the past few days LEE had commented that he rode to work with a boy named WESLEY." Seems there is no mention of it being one day a week either.

In the second MFF link, above, also dated 11/23, Wesley says the large department-store type paper sack was large enough to hold a broken down rifle. And his dear sister, LMR says the package was a whopping three feet long by six inches wide.

The stories certainly morphed fast in the first couple of days, didn't they?

Terry Martin

I suppose we really need a person-by-person breakdown of morphing story lines, arranged by earliest version first.

If we could get a handle on WHY certain people's stories had to be adjusted to fit other people's stories and WHEN... and so on and so on... we might be able to establish some motives behind the domino effect.

I figure there were some people who told the unvarnished truth on Day One and their stories should hang together. It is the other stories - which do not corroborate - that have to be picked apart. Were they simply bad memories or attempts to hide something else? In Givens story alone, you can see the subtle differences along the way. Why did each of those changes have to be made? Whose stories did they have to agree with?

Faroe Islander

I think it is an "innocent" error from the transcriber but that error made many researchers believe that Givens saw Oswald at 11:50 when he said to the FBI that he did see him at around 7:50 when he came to work Friday morning, this is at least what Givens says some hours after the assassination, and I for one believe him, when Givens is appearing in front of the WC in April, he does not remember anything just as so many others. 

If there is anything wrong with Givens testimony then it could be that he is remembering another day, but maybe LHO rode to work with Mr. Randle at 7:00. 

Mick Purdy

I realise this has actually been covered for years now, but the one thing which has me thinking it's legit is there's no escaping the line of Givens, if transcribed correctly that is :
 
"Oswald was reading paper in the first floor domino room seven-fifty A.M. November twenty two last when Givens came to work."
When Givens came to work.......
It can't have been after 8.00 am, he would have been at work one would assume. It's hard to imagine it was just before 8.00 am either.
If somebody saw Oswald reading the paper in the DR "as they came to work" one would assume the person they'd seen reading the paper was sitting relaxing before the days duties. And that the person do would sit down to read the paper when they had time to do so IMO.
In the end it's left to interpretation like so much else with the case. But I'm not buying the time line error pushed by so many others any longer.
It doesn't make sense to my tiny little brain. 

"When he came to work".

Stan Dane wrote:Faroe Islander

I think it is an "innocent" error from the transcriber but that error made many researchers believe that Givens saw Oswald at 11:50 when he said to the FBI that he did see him at around 7:50 when he came to work Friday morning, this is at least what Givens says some hours after the assassination, and I for one believe him, when Givens is appearing in front of the WC in April, he does not remember anything just as so many others. 

If there is anything wrong with Givens testimony then it could be that he is remembering another day, but maybe LHO rode to work with Mr. Randle at 7:00. 

Terry Martin

Like, Mick, it makes no sense to my tiny little brain either.

The original testimony had "when he came to work" and the time 7:50. I can see someone innocently transcribing the time wrong as 11:50 but then it should have said "when I got to work at 11:50".

Because the time is removed from context, it is allowed to be altered in time, structure, setting, and purpose. So, what we have from the earliest testimony - before Givens had months of prodding to dis-remember it - Givens got to work before 8, and Lee was already there. And there was no Frazier in evidence so Givens yells out the window, "Where's your rider?"

Now, the question I have, what is the meaning of that query? Is he implying that Wes got caught coming in late, or promising Lee a ride and disappearing, or what? Givens said he had early just recently learned that Wes drove Lee to work. When did he learn that? Nov. 22nd?

What a tale! More fishy every minute I'd say.

Mick Purdy

So Terry just thinking out loud, could it be that It really was a jibe or something a little more sinister when Given's yelled "where's your ride?"
Did Givens already know Oswald was inside when he called to Wes?
Had Givens not been into the Elm Street Building when he called to Wes?
Or going back to my original suspicions could it be it was "code" for Oswald's in the building or some such.

If I had a bigger brain I'd probably be able to solve this but since I've been dealt my tiny little one I can't seem to see the woods for the trees.

My Givens is an interesting participant in all of this!

I still firmly believe that Wes was up to his neck in whatever the plan was that morning regarding the drive in.

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy

I realise this has actually been covered for years now, but the one thing which has me thinking it's legit is there's no escaping the line of Givens, if transcribed correctly that is :
 
"Oswald was reading paper in the first floor domino room seven-fifty A.M. November twenty two last when Givens came to work."
When Givens came to work.......
It can't have been after 8.00 am, he would have been at work one would assume. It's hard to imagine it was just before 8.00 am either.
If somebody saw Oswald reading the paper in the DR "as they came to work" one would assume the person they'd seen reading the paper was sitting relaxing before the days duties. And that the person do would sit down to read the paper when they had time to do so IMO.
In the end it's left to interpretation like so much else with the case. But I'm not buying the time line error pushed by so many others any longer.
It doesn't make sense to my tiny little brain. 

"When he came to work".

Smee

This could make some sense for LHO - apparently, he never bought a newspaper himself but read the old ones left behind from the day before. Maybe he caught up with the previous day's newspapers first thing the following morning before they were taken away by building/office cleaners?

Certainly seems like an odd thing for Givens to call out to Wes if he already knew LHO was in the building...?

Mick Purdy

It would seem from the evidence we have to work with, and by that I'm eluding to the testimonies, affidavits,interviews etc that Givens was working down at the Houston Nth warehouse. As per Shields HSCA I/V and what he had to say about Frazier's being seen all on his lonesome in the carpark at about 7.50-7.55 am, the walk we're told from the Houston warehouse to the Elm Street building was about 4-5 minutes at a dawdle.

Shields "tesimony" places Frazier on his own in the carpark at around 7.55am if we are to believe Wes at all in this.
It places Givens there too, on the second floor (USA) (First floor for Ozzies) of the Houston warehouse at about this same time.
I'm really inclined to believe in Shields recollection of this as per my posts throughout this thread. I believe him 100%
So, what to make of Given's supposedly telling Shanklin, 
"Oswald was reading paper in the first floor domino room seven-fifty A.M. November twenty two last when Givens came to work."

If this is accurate then IMO it casts even more doubt on Frazier's version of events.

Of course the report may be in error as others have maintained over the years but I'm just not so sure......

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy

It would seem from the evidence we have to work with, and by that I'm eluding to the testimonies, affidavits,interviews etc that Givens was working down at the Houston Nth warehouse. As per Shields HSCA I/V and what he had to say about Frazier's being seen all on his lonesome in the carpark at about 7.50-7.55 am, the walk we're told from the Houston warehouse to the Elm Street building was about 4-5 minutes at a dawdle.

Shields "tesimony" places Frazier on his own in the carpark at around 7.55am if we are to believe Wes at all in this.
It places Givens there too, on the second floor (USA) (First floor for Ozzies) of the Houston warehouse at about this same time.
I'm really inclined to believe in Shields recollection of this as per my posts throughout this thread. I believe him 100%
So, what to make of Given's supposedly telling Shanklin, 
"Oswald was reading paper in the first floor domino room seven-fifty A.M. November twenty two last when Givens came to work."

If this is accurate then IMO it casts even more doubt on Frazier's version of events.

Of course the report may be in error as others have maintained over the years but I'm just not so sure......

Smee

It would seem from the evidence we have to work with, and by that I'm eluding to the testimonies, affidavits,interviews etc that Givens was working down at the Houston Nth warehouse.

According to Givens' testimony for the 22nd, he was one of the floor laying crew in the TSBD:

Mr. BELIN. What do you do down there at the Texas Book Depository?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I filled orders and stacked books, and you know, don't have any special job.
Mr. BELIN. On what floors do you generally work most of all?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I work on the first floor most of the time, like we fill orders. We like work out of the stock downstairs. We go upstairs. We have stock on three floors, fifth, sixth, and seventh.
Mr. BELIN. Well, do you fill orders for any particular publisher more than another, so that you might be on the fifth floor, or the sixth floor more than the seventh, or do you just spend as much time on any one of those top floors as you do on any other top floor?
Mr. GIVENS. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Is that what you were doing on the 22d of November 1963, also?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What were you doing on November 22?
Mr. GIVENS. We were fixing the floor, putting down some plywood on the floor.
Mr. BELIN. What floor would this have been on?
Mr. GIVENS. Sixth.
Mr. BELIN. What part of the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. We were working. on the west end.
Mr. BELIN. All right, do you remember what time you got to work that day?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes; I got to work around about a quarter to eight.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got to work?
Mr. GIVENS. I went in a little lunchroom that we have downstairs.
Mr. BELIN. Is that what you call the domino room?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Did he initially go to the Houston North warehouse then over to the TSBD?...

Or, perhaps, went to the TSBD first to grab a quick coffee and a bite to eat with the rest of the floor laying crew to just check that they would be continuing that day, where he saw LHO, then headed over to the warehouse and, as he got there, saw BWF strolling across and shouted out to him (and Shields heard this)? Though, again, that would seem odd if he'd already seen LHO in the TSBD, unless ihe was just genuinely wondering why LHO wasn't with BWF? Also, why would he be heading over to the warehouse if he was part of the floor laying crew in the TSBD?

Whichever, it seems more & more likely that LHO may not have traveled to work that morning with BWF...

A further thought - according to the WC, LHO would only usually travel into work with BWF on a Monday morning, after having been dropped off at Irving on the previous Friday - This comment/question from Givens would seem to infer that it was actually a more regular and routine arrangement....

Mick Purdy

I personally believe its highly likely BWF did not take Oswald to work.....I think its a near certainty.
What I'm trying to get my tiny brain around is BWF and Oswald after the assassination...thats the game changer IMO

Wes took Oswald to the Theatre...it makes so much sense to my tiny tiny brain. IMO

Terry Martin

"This comment/question from Givens would seem to infer that it was actually a more regular and routine arrangement..."

Yes, and that's why this thread is so damned interesting!!

Mick, I was thinking it was a jibe - sounds like one to my ear. Of course, this plays into the idea that there was some "back story" of which we are not aware. Was there any incident or argument or such between Givens and Wes? Any reason for animosity? That could account for the jibe (if that's what it was)..

And Givens said he only recently talked to Ozzie and found out about his coming in with Wes. Again, it hints of some back story between Givens and Wes.

Unless, of course, it was a signal to let Wes know Lee was already in the building. Which would mean a different back story with Givens as a part of that conspiracy.

I love this thread!

Smee

I'm now starting to wonder whether BWF actually took LHO back to Irving on Thursday 21st as well? Need to look back at the various testimonies etc. but IIRC, LMR certainly seemd somewhat vague about that aspect.

Also, based on the information provided regarding LHO's 'interrogations', it certainly seemed like he was trying to cover up for something about leaving the TSBD on  the Friday...need to look more into that Thursday afternoon/evening as well methinks....

Terry Martin

Yes, Smee. Investigating this case, one must question everything.

Mick Purdy

Yes, and putting this Given's line into perspective along with what Shields recollects it's a possibility that Ed was right.

It's a jibe, like..."Your rider not with you today Wes," " Wonder why that is Wes,"  "He's inside Wes," "it's OK Wes he's already here." "You not driving Lee today, Wes?"

You know, "why haven't you got Lee, he's with you every other day?" 
That jibe could have come at the moment Wes walked across the parking lot at around a few minutes before 8.00 am.

And completely possible that Givens did in fact see Lee in the DR at 7.50 am....

All that needed to happen for Givens to see Wes after his spotting Oswald, is that he walked down from the Elm Street Building to Houston Nth and met up with Shields and hollered to Wes "Where's your ride?"

It's possible..........

Stan Dane

Now that Mick has made me question everything I thought I knew or believed about Buell Wesley Frazier - and after looking at various images of the TSBD entrance pre/post assassination for the umpteenth time - there was something about BWF's testimony I couldn't shake out of my mind today (emphasis mine):
 
Mr. BALL - Did you see the President go by?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL - Did you hear anything?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say, just right after he went by he hadn't hardly got by, I heard a sound and if you have ever been around motorcycles you know how they backfire, and so I thought one of them motorcycles backfired because right before his car came down, now there were several of these motorcycle policemen, and they took off down toward the underpass down there, and so I thought, you know, that one of them motorcycles backfired, but it wasn't just a few seconds that, you know, I heard two more of the same type of, you know, sounds, and by that time people was running everywhere, and falling down and screaming, and naturally then I knew something was wrong, and so I come to the conclusion somebody else, somebody was shooting at somebody and I figured it was him.
Mr. BALL - You figured it was who?
Mr. FRAZIER - I figured it was somebody shooting at President Kennedy because people were running and hollering so I just stood still. I have always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes you look guilty sure enough.
Mr. BALL - Now, then, did you have any impression at that time as to the direction from which the sound came?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, to be frank with you I thought it come from down there, you know, where that underpass is. There is a series, quite a few number, of them railroad tracks running together and from where I was standing it sounded like it was coming from down the railroad tracks there.
Mr. BALL - Were you able to see the President, could you still see the President's car when you heard the first sound?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I couldn't. From there, you know, people were standing out there on the curb, you see, and you know it drops, you know the ground drops, off there as you go down toward that underpass and I couldn't see any of it because people were standing up there in my way, but however, when he did turn that corner there, there wasn't anybody standing there in the street and you could see good there, but after you got on past down there you couldn't see anything.
Mr. BALL - You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the sound?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - But you stood right there, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Stood right where I was.
Mr. BALL - And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And also Billy Lovelady?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there?
Mr. BALL - A police officer.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.

Why so much attention on BWF standing still and not moving? And why talk about who he saw (or didn't see) coming into the building, i.e., police officer(s)? Why was that so important? Something doesn't seem right.

Terry Martin

One might think he protested too much. It is almost as if someone had claimed he fled the scene and he is adamant about NOT having done so.

If he HAD fled, where the heck did he go? (except for maybe downstairs to shut off the power for a moment, head out the back, drive Lee to the movies and then go meet his sis) Nowhere I guess... since he didn't move. Didn't budge. Otherwise someone might think he was guilty of something.

Well, he may not be budging on that story but I sure as hell suspect him of something.

Stan Dane wrote:Stan Dane

Now that Mick has made me question everything I thought I knew or believed about Buell Wesley Frazier - and after looking at various images of the TSBD entrance pre/post assassination for the umpteenth time - there was something about BWF's testimony I couldn't shake out of my mind today (emphasis mine):
 
Mr. BALL - Did you see the President go by?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL - Did you hear anything?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say, just right after he went by he hadn't hardly got by, I heard a sound and if you have ever been around motorcycles you know how they backfire, and so I thought one of them motorcycles backfired because right before his car came down, now there were several of these motorcycle policemen, and they took off down toward the underpass down there, and so I thought, you know, that one of them motorcycles backfired, but it wasn't just a few seconds that, you know, I heard two more of the same type of, you know, sounds, and by that time people was running everywhere, and falling down and screaming, and naturally then I knew something was wrong, and so I come to the conclusion somebody else, somebody was shooting at somebody and I figured it was him.
Mr. BALL - You figured it was who?
Mr. FRAZIER - I figured it was somebody shooting at President Kennedy because people were running and hollering so I just stood still. I have always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes you look guilty sure enough.
Mr. BALL - Now, then, did you have any impression at that time as to the direction from which the sound came?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, to be frank with you I thought it come from down there, you know, where that underpass is. There is a series, quite a few number, of them railroad tracks running together and from where I was standing it sounded like it was coming from down the railroad tracks there.
Mr. BALL - Were you able to see the President, could you still see the President's car when you heard the first sound?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I couldn't. From there, you know, people were standing out there on the curb, you see, and you know it drops, you know the ground drops, off there as you go down toward that underpass and I couldn't see any of it because people were standing up there in my way, but however, when he did turn that corner there, there wasn't anybody standing there in the street and you could see good there, but after you got on past down there you couldn't see anything.
Mr. BALL - You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the sound?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - But you stood right there, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Stood right where I was.
Mr. BALL - And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And also Billy Lovelady?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there?
Mr. BALL - A police officer.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.

Why so much attention on BWF standing still and not moving? And why talk about who he saw (or didn't see) coming into the building, i.e., police officer(s)? Why was that so important? Something doesn't seem right.

Mick Purdy

I agree Stan, something NQR here to be sure.

Mr. BALL - You figured it was who?
Mr. FRAZIER - I figured it was somebody shooting at President Kennedy because people were running and hollering so I just stood still. I have always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes you look guilty sure enough.

WTH.

Mr. BALL - But you stood right there, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Stood right where I was.
Mr. BALL - And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?

He froze?

Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there?
Mr. BALL - A police officer.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.

You've got to be kidding right.

Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.

I'm with you Stan, why? 

I'll speculate as to why Frazier may not have seen the cop though. Wes had many, many things on his mind. I'm tipping his mind was in overload at the point straight after the assassination.

Hence:

Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.

Mick Purdy

There's very good reason to believe Shanklin's report is indeed accurate by way of Given's WC testimony:
 
Mr. BELIN. What do you do down there at the Texas Book Depository?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I filled orders and stacked books, and you know, don't have any special job.
Mr. BELIN. On what floors do you generally work most of all?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I work on the first floor most of the time, like we fill orders. We like work out of the stock downstairs. We go upstairs. We have stock on three floors, fifth, sixth, and seventh.
Mr. BELIN. Well, do you fill orders for any particular publisher more than another, so that you might be on the fifth floor, or the sixth floor more than the seventh, or do you just spend as much time on any one of those top floors as you do on any other top floor?
Mr. GIVENS. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Is that what you were doing on the 22d of November 1963, also?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What were you doing on November 22?
Mr. GIVENS. We were fixing the floor, putting down some plywood on the floor.
Mr. BELIN. What floor would this have been on?
Mr. GIVENS. Sixth.
Mr. BELIN. What part of the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. We were working. on the west end.
Mr. BELIN. All right, do you remember what time you got to work that day?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes; I got to work around about a quarter to eight.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got to work?
Mr. GIVENS. I went in a little lunchroom that we have downstairs.
Mr. BELIN. Is that what you call the domino room?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

I'm pretty darn sure that this is corroborated with Shanklin's report:



I'm inclined to believe, Givens did actually see Lee in the DR at 7.50 am like he stated. Which IMO does indeed put Frazier's walk with Oswald through the carpark in the Fantasy Box.

Now why did Frazier arrive alone at work Friday 22nd Nov. without his driving buddy?