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question on texas licenses

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question on texas licenses

Post by greg parker on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 10:39 am

Is it all possible that a Texas driver's license circa '63 would show the person's trade or profession on it? Have tried to find an example with no luck.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: question on texas licenses

Post by David Wimp on Sun 12 Nov 2017, 9:59 am

I had a Texas driver's license in early 1966.  It was paper and had no picture.  It seems like it might have had more information on it as it folded up to fit in a wallet.  I can't remember if it had occupation on it but I don't think so.

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Re: question on texas licenses

Post by greg parker on Sun 12 Nov 2017, 10:53 am

David Wimp wrote:I had a Texas driver's license in early 1966.  It was paper and had no picture.  It seems like it might have had more information on it as it folded up to fit in a wallet.  I can't remember if it had occupation on it but I don't think so.
Thanks David. That helps. I had wondered if indeed what was considered Lee's application for a license may have been in fact, the license itself. That one piece of information on it (that he was a photographer) was the only possible flaw in that line of thinking...

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: question on texas licenses

Post by David Wimp on Mon 13 Nov 2017, 11:35 am

There are fewer and fewer people whose first driver's license did not have a picture on it and I think there may be one piece of evidence whose true significance will be lost to future generations.  That's the phony ID Oswald was carrying.  I have never seen it except in photos but it looks like it is approaching the quality of 1970's driver's licenses but it was 1963.  Then, as now, the driver's license was the standard form of ID and they didn't have pictures.  PhotoID (I don't think I even heard that term until well into the 70's) was somewhat rare and rarely required.  It was a non-photoID world.  I think people will more and more think that that ID looks pretty good and it might well have worked.  However, the picture would expose it as a fake pretty quickly to anyone who actually checked ID's.  The military draft was called Selective Service and the ID was a draft card with a picture on it.  Draft cards did not have pictures on them.  Most men in America over the age 18 were required or had in the past been required to have their draft card on their person at all times.  It was rare for anybody to take it out and look at it, but just about everybody knew what Selective Service meant.  So if you flashed that ID the picture would grab the attention of the person checking and would prompt him or her to say, "Hey, what's this?"  Then they would see "Selective Service" and would know it was fake because everybody knew draft cards did not have pictures on them.  The idea that Oswald used that ID to pick up the rifle at the post office is especially ludicrous.  The post office  is where you went to register for the draft.  Not all post offices were draft registration stations and I don't know if that one was, but somebody working in a post office would be even more likely than the general population to know what a draft card was.  My question has always been did Oswald always carry around that worthless ID or just on the day he was shooting the President with the rifle that ID would link him to?  I think a case can be made that the ID might be used in another country and I suspect that case was supposed to be made.  I think Oswald was supposed to lose that ID and probably his whole wallet but he broke off the plan when he got off the bus.  Anybody know if Oswald was carrying whatever cash he had in his wallet or in his pocket?

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Re: question on texas licenses

Post by greg parker on Mon 13 Nov 2017, 11:46 am

David, as far as I can tell, he had it in his pocket - something I do - carry a wallet, but have any money in a separate pocket - and not for any particular reason except habit.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: question on texas licenses

Post by David Wimp on Mon 13 Nov 2017, 12:44 pm

Oswald may have done that, too.  I think for me part of growing up was getting a first billfold and getting to keep bills in there instead of pants pockets.

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Re: question on texas licenses

Post by greg parker on Mon 13 Nov 2017, 1:07 pm

I think he may well have had a license. Apparently no actual driving test required, and if you read Buell Frazier's testimny, he assumed Oswald had sat the test and passed it. I find it hard to believe he went there what? At least 2 or 3 times and for different reasons, never got to sit the test? That smells like bullshit to me.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: question on texas licenses

Post by David Wimp on Mon 13 Nov 2017, 1:54 pm

I got my first license in Texas at 14.  I had actually been driving a couple of years then but mostly on private roads.  I am not sure how much I had to do was because I was getting my license early through driver's ed, but I had to take a written test to get a lerner's permit.  We spent weeks in class going over the "rules of the road" in the driver's manual so I aced that one.  That allowed me to drive with an adult in the front seat.  I had to log some number of hours and then take a driving test.  I think there was generally a requirement to log some number of hours with a lerner's permit and some minimum time between getting the lerner's permit and a full license but the DMV had no way to know if you really had done your driving.  In my case, I had to drive with the instructor some number of hours but that was because of driver's ed and early license.

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Re: question on texas licenses

Post by greg parker on Mon 13 Nov 2017, 2:07 pm

That kind of fits with what Frazier said:

Mr. BALL - And why did--did he tell you why he wasn't going to ride home that weekend? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, he did. He said he was working on his driving license and he was going to go take a driving test.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever ask him afterward if he had taken his driver's test? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I never did. I assumed that he had taken it and passed it what part of the test he was taking. Most men do, I say, they usually work at it, study at it good enough so they don't flunk out. 
Representative FORD - Do you have to get a learner's permit in Texas before you can get a driver's permit? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I say, you don't. Just two steps to it. I say, first no matter what age you are; say, when you have to be at least 14 is about the youngest you can get it in Texas and then you have to take a DE, Driver's Education, if you are going to school but otherwise, the age is 16 and you just go around to the driving license bureau there, they have an office in most any town of any size in Texas, and you just go in and see the driving license man and just tell him that you plan to take your driving test and you would like to have the auto manual, and the manual covers any laws and so forth in the State of Texas, and you can either study for your operator's or your commercial and you pick out which one you want, and you study up for it and then he is there, he tells you what days he is in his office, and so he goes there a certain time and he gives you several sheets of paper, a quiz and you answer them questions, and if you--you have to make a grade of 70 on it to pass and if you make a grade of 70 or above, well, I say, in another week or two you go down there and you say like for instance if you are going to want a driver's license for a car-- 
Representative FORD - Did Lee ever ask you or did Lee ever tell you whether he had ever actually applied for a driver's license? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; he never had, except I told you that weekend that he said he was going down to take his driving test, and so I knew from being in the State of Texas that you have to know something; you have to have the manuals and so forth to study up on it. Or there isn't any use going down there if you don't know the rules because you are not wasting any time but your own. 
Mr. BALL - Do you remember whether or not one weekend that he didn't go down with you but he rode back with you, say, on the Armistice Day holiday? Do you remember? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't. 
Mr. BALL - Your memory is that he went,, he rode home with you every Friday and came back the following Monday? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes. 
Mr. BALL - Except this one weekend? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right, that is what I say. If he went home with me on Friday afternoon he always rode back with me on Monday morning. It wasn't no added job when he would come with me on the weekend. He would ride home with me on Friday and he would come back with me on Monday. 
Mr. BALL - Did he ever tell you that he had or had not applied for a driver's license? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No; he had not except he told me he was going down to take it. 
Mr. BALL - He never told you that he had or had not? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No
Mr. BALL - And he never told you whether he had obtained a driver's license? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; he didn't. 
Mr. BALL - Did you ever talk to him on whether or not he could drive a car, knew how to drive a car? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say, I believe the first afternoon, the first time we was going home and we were talking about that and he said he was working on his driving license then, and then naturally like I told you several weeks later, then he told me he was going to take his driving test and I assumed he could drive a car being as old as he was because most everybody in the State of Texas by. the time you are my age if you can't drive a car something is wrong with you. 
Mr. BALL - He did never say whether he could or couldn't? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right
Mr. BALL - Did he ever ask you about the parts of a car? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe he did. 
Mr. BALL - Do you remember any conversation when he asked you what the clutch was? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Oh, yes. We got talking about that. He noticed, you know, most cars as old as mine, you know most of them are standard shift, and when I bought this old car it kind of fooled me it had automatic transmission on it so we got talking about it on the way home driving home and I told him that I really prefer a standard because you know, they are a lot easier to work on and you know, when an automatic goes dead it goes dead, there is no rolling a couple of feet and jumping on the clutch and starting when the battery is down. 
And I remember he said it was a little bit different to drive with a clutch. I said, if you are not used to it, but if you get used to it. You have to find a friction point on any car, even on Chevrolet or Ford, you know yourself the friction points on a clutch and the brakes are different adjusted on every car you drive. 
And I told you there is nothing you do. You just have to get used to a car of the individual, you can drive one car to do it, and you can drive another one it may take you a couple of days to get used to it. 
Mr. BALL - He is the one who mentioned the clutch, is he, that you didn't have a clutch? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. 
I guess he noticed that I didn't have a clutch. 
Mr. BALL - I see. 

------------------
According to Ruth Paine, she took him twice to sit the test. First time it was closed because of some election - second time was too late in the day. I think he also went once on his own. 

--------------
If I read Buell correctly, if you were of a certain age, all you had to do was sit the test. There was a real resentment in Texas about the need for licenses when they first came in and as a result, I think they made them easy to get an free of charge.

Socialist Texas!

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: question on texas licenses

Post by greg parker on Mon 13 Nov 2017, 2:14 pm

mysanantonio.com wrote:“This is a happy-go-lucky country,” noted the San Antonio Express in a 1931 editorial favoring passage of a driver's license bill by the Texas Legislature.

“We can see no argument against it,” said the Express, but there were several. Trucking companies didn't want to pay any more fees. Municipal and county governments worried about getting stuck with administrative expenses.

Some law-enforcement authorities feared unfunded extra work for officers, and some drivers claimed that only those envious of car owners could support the measure.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/news_columnists/article/Columnist-s-first-question-concerned-first-3361831.php

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: question on texas licenses

Post by David Wimp on Mon 13 Nov 2017, 4:10 pm

This part:

he tells you what days he is in his office, and so he goes there a certain time and he gives you several sheets of paper, a quiz and you answer them questions, and if you--you have to make a grade of 70 on it to pass and if you make a grade of 70 or above, well, I say, in another week or two you go down there and you say like for instance if you are going to want a driver's license for a car--

Sounds like he was from a very rural setting or he is conflating things.  We did not have to schedule the taking of the written test but did the driving test.  I took driver's ed in Texas in the fall of 1965.  We went over everything in the driver's manual and what you had to do to get a license was in there.  It might have changed  in the two years in between, but Frazier was 19.  If he got his license at 16, then it might have changed in the three years since he got his license.  It really sounds to me like he was in some really hick town like I was but with no bigger town nearby and maybe they didn't strictly  follow the rules.  He said he didn't get a learner's permit but in 65, you got a permit when you passed the written test.  He does say some time must pass between the written test and driving test as I remember.  In 65 you were supposed to be practicing driving.  You could get a lerner's permit without driver's ed when you were 14 but couldn't get your full license until you were 16 without it.  It might have been possible to refuse the permit and just come back and take the driving test after some time had passed since the written test.

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