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Jack Edwin Dougherty

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Jack Edwin Dougherty - Page 5 Empty Jack Edwin Dougherty

Fri 20 Jan 2012, 9:46 pm
First topic message reminder :

Warren Commission reservations concerning Jack Dougherty


March 12, 1964, a memo was sent from Warren Commission lawyer Melvin A. Eisenberg to J. Lee Rankin. Eisenberg set out his suspicions concerning the testimony and actions of Jack Edwin Dougherty who was employed as an order-filler at the Texas School Book Depository.



The memo was sent approximately one month before Dougherty was due to give his sworn testimony concerning events in the Texas School Book Depository on November 22, 1963 in front of the Warren Commission.



Although TSBD superintendent Roy Sansom Truly tried to paint a picture of Jack Dougherty as being mentally retarded I believe the facts claim otherwise. He finished High School in Dallas. He was accepted into the Army where he served for just over two years. He was also quite articulate according to his Warren Commission testimony even though he did seem to make errors concerning times and dates.



The “retardation” is simply a cover story.



Here is the memo:



MEMORANDUM

TO: J Lee Rankin

FROM: Melvin A. Eisenberg

SUBJECT: Identity of Assassin



I think a thorough investigation should he run on a TSBD employee named Jack Dougherty.



On the morning of November 22, Dougherty was part of a crew laying a new plywood floor on the sixth floor of the TSBD. This crew consisted of Danny Arce, Dougherty, Charles Givens, James ("Junior") Jarman, Billy Lovelady, and Bonnie Rae Williams, all regular employees in the TSBD shipping and. order-filling department.

They were apparently working under the direction of William Shelley the senior employee in that department.



In a written statement to the Dallas police on November 22,

Dougherty gave the following story: On the morning of November 22, he had worked [with the floor laying crew] on the sixth floor until 12:00, when he went down to the first floor to eat his lunch. After lunch he returned to work [on the sixth floor] and then went down to the fifth floor "to get some stock," when he heard a shot, which sounded as if it had come from inside the building. He then went down to the first floor and asked Eddie Piper, the TSBD Janitor, whether Piper had heard anything. Piper said yes, he had heard 3 shots. Dougherty then returned to the sixth floor. (81B.20)[


SA Blake of the Secret Service, who interviewed Dougherty between December 2 and December 5, reported that "when Dougherty was interviewed he seemed to be very confused about time and places. Mr. Truly [Roy S. Truly, Superintendent of the TSBD] finished the information that although Dougherty is a very good employee and a hard worker, he is mentally retarded and has difficulty in remembering facts, such as dates, times, places, and. has-been especially confused since the assassination." (SS 1*91 at p. 7)



I am suspicious of Dougherty for several reasons.



(1) He has no alibi. Of the six employees on the floor laying crew, Givens claims to have been with a friend at a parking lot several blocks away when the assassination took place; Williams and Jarman were together on the fifth floor with another employee named Norman; Lovelady was standing outside the TSBD (and was photographed); and Arce claims to have been standing outside the TSBD.

Dougherty was inside the TSBD and all alone.


(2) His story is very thin.

(a) It does not make sense that Dougherty, one of a six-man floor laying crew, should begin working before the other five members returned from lunch.

(b) It is questionable that Dougherty would have had to go to the fifth floor to get "stock" in connection with the floor-laying project.



1/ Dougherty’s father told the FBI that Dougherty had received a medical discharge from the U.S. Army and had considerable difficulty coordinating his mental facilities and his speech. (5.367)





(c) Jarman, Norman, and Williams, who were at the southeast window of the fifth floor at the time of the assassination, and ran from there to the southwest window, make absolutely no mention of having seen Dougherty on the fifth floor.

(d) It does not seem credible that Dougherty would have gone down to the first floor, found out that the three shots had been fired, and then casually returned to the sixth floor.

(e) No report indicates that Dougherty or anyone else was on the sixth floor when that floor was searched

(f) Since Dougherty heard the shots on the fifth floor, and since the shots were fired at approximately 12:32, Dougherty must have returned to the sixth floor, allegedly to go back to work, before 12:30. This seems odd, since the TSBD lunch period extends until 12:45.

(3) If Dougherty is “mentally retarded,” it may explain some of the inconsistencies in his story. On the other hand, the “mental retardation” may be an emotional problem, which would itself be grounds for suspicion. In this connection, I find disturbing Truly’s comment that Dougherty “has been especially confused since the assassination.”



cc: Ball

Belin

Craig

Adams

Specter

Redlich



A couple of questions jump out of this:




  • None of these “concerns” or “suspicions” were explicitly discussed with Dougherty when he was on the stand and from the existing record they weren’t discussed with him by the FBI or the Dallas Police after Eisenberg had raised them.

  • Eisenberg claims the time of the shots was 12:32PM. This is the time also laid out in other documents relating to the assassination investigation. So what time was Kennedy actually shot?


Last edited by Admin on Fri 20 Jan 2012, 10:13 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Word change - formatting)

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Thu 06 Sep 2018, 4:48 pm
Compare w his DPD handwritten statement

Jack Edwin Dougherty - Page 5 Affida10
Jack Edwin Dougherty - Page 5 Affida11

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Fri 07 Sep 2018, 9:50 am
Thanks for sharing Barto,

JD's two conflicting statements - one to the DPD and the other to the FBI are nuggets. He's crooked in my view.

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Sun 05 Sep 2021, 4:45 am
And we are still none the wiser with regards a pic IDing Jack Daugherty......

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Sun 05 Sep 2021, 12:40 pm
I got that feeling when the copyright issue was questioned....
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Sat 26 Feb 2022, 7:58 am
Jack Edwin Dougherty - Page 5 Scree617
The latest news is no year book for second year (when Jack was assigned) for Freeman Army Airfield.
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Sat 26 Feb 2022, 8:07 am
Jack, a man who the authorities took his word for his alibi at 12:30pm. His word! No witnesses and he was  MIA on the upper floors of the TSBD at the time Kennedy was slain. He only had his word. And they believed him? What because Truly tells the Cops that he's a simpleton. This same simpleton was given the authority to open the warehouse for the day in the mornings and was also responsible for the safe keep of the keys to the building. Truly mentioned Jack was a retard - I think not.

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Sat 26 Feb 2022, 8:49 am
You've just made the case for reopening the murder Mick.
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Sat 26 Feb 2022, 9:55 am
Ed.Ledoux wrote:You've just made the case for reopening the murder Mick.
I absolutely agree Ed.

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Sat 26 Feb 2022, 12:29 pm
Perhaps Jack was an inside man too along with Truly.

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Sun 27 Feb 2022, 7:09 am
There's no proof of this collusion between Jack and Roy, but something has always troubled me about the fact that Jack was given the responsibility of opening up the warehouse and left in charge of the keys of the building. The boss of the Book depository no less give's one of his employee's, the "retarded" Jack Dougherty.

 Truly's "retard" tag was pinned on Dougherty when the heat was applied by the cops and I think there's a reason to be suspicious of that. Jack has never given a satisfactory explanation for his movements between 12.00 noon and 12.31pm. Think about that.

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Sun 27 Feb 2022, 12:07 pm
I see no indication from the handwritten deposition that the writer is “slow” or “retarded”. The handwriting is well formed, the sentences complete and coherent, no misspellings, only a couple of corrections.

I think if the writer was mentally slow, the statement would have been dictated to someone else and then typewritten.

Assuming of course, that the writing and signature are those of JD.
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Sun 27 Feb 2022, 12:26 pm
Mr. BALL - Now, did you ever have any difficulty with your speech?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - You never had any?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever have any difficulty in the Army with any medical treatment or anything of that sort?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No. 
Mr. BALL - None at all? 
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Jack certainly doesn't answer as if he's got any medical issues.


And this:


Mr. BALL - Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I didn't hear anybody yell.
Mr. BALL - Or, did you see Mr. Truly?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, when the FBI men---I imagine it was who it was---he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and just started looking for him, and by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gun and shells.
Mr. BALL - When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found the shotgun and shells?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir; and I found out later he was on the fourth floor, which I didn't find.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see a gun around there? 
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir; I sure didn't.

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Fri 11 Mar 2022, 6:35 pm
UHHH QUICK QUESTION

How does JACK EDWIN DOUGHERTY miss ROY SANSOM TRULY on the Fourth floor?

Any lawyer worth a shit bigger than a mouses would put this in front of Jack!


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Fri 18 Mar 2022, 5:38 am
Yes Ed, but Jack Dougherty is retarded remember  Jack Edwin Dougherty - Page 5 1f60d

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Fri 18 Mar 2022, 7:59 am
😄 ...and so is Truly but both their eyes and ears worked (I am guessing)
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Sun 01 Jan 2023, 2:31 pm
Repeating here from previous posts but it's well worth another mention.

If we accept that the Carcano Mannlicher rifle which was claimed to have been found on the upper floors (6th floor determined at some time during the afternoon) was a planted piece of evidence, a throwdown then that rifle has only so many ways of having got inside that building undetected.

Fact is and assuming Truly had a set of keys to the building the only other person who was known to have a set was Jack Dougherty. The only other time that any sleight of hand could have taken place to get a rifle into that building undetected was when Warren Caster turned up with his two (or was that 3 in a sleight of hand magic trick) show and tell rifle packages on the Wednesday....brandied about openly as sporting rifles for he and his son. No big deal I'd imagine 1963 in Texas. 

But I ask myself this question- who had the opportunity to plant that rifle at the appropriate time of the day without being seen? I can't buy that it was planted before those guys up on the sixth laying floorboard went to break for lunch. It would seem highly risky, at least to my mind. 

Dougherty opened up each morning around 7.00am before staff arrived. It was either he or Piper from memory who would shut shop. (Not sure Piper ever had that role - could be my faulty memory) 

That MC rifle was chosen for a specific reason, it was to vaguely coincide and sorta match the rifle in the BYP. That's foreknowledge. That's planning. And that is why this worked so well for so long. It never had to be an exact match, just the same similar model. But somebody had to know about the BYP's and the planted throw down rifles connection. 

Frazier had a rifle (did he own the MC?). Was the rifle stored or stowed away at the Paine's residence? How did that rifle get into the building and up on the upper floors presumably during the lunch hour on the Friday?

Dougherty for me ticks all these boxes - it is quite possible that any number of people could have given Dougherty that rifle to hide prior to the assassination and then plant it during the lunch hour as late as possible. He is unaccounted for - more so than any other TSBD employee I know. Wesley Frazier was missing during the lunch hour claiming he was in the basement eating lunch alone. He certainly had the time to plant a rifle on the upper floors. It's almost certain Oswald had a solid alibi.....
Dougherty had the opportunity more than anyone else to carry out the planting of this evidence. It's really important to understand that that particular model MC rifle was planted because it was to match the rifle shown in the BYP.
There are only so many people who would have been privy to the BYP's content if we accept they are not genuine....Marina Oswald, Ruth Paine, Michael Paine, Wesley Frazier, George de Mohrenschildt, Gary Taylor, or Alexandra Taylor. (the list could possibly be expanded here to include others)

It was either one or some of the above mentioned or possibly someone unknown who would have selected the rifle as the throw down, it had to be somebody who was able to make a connection with someone on the inside at the TSBD.....

That person could have been Ruth Paine, Frazier, Michael Paine, de Mohrenschildt,

or 

The rifle was given to Caster by someone, and he cleverly had that hidden in one of the two rifle carton/packages he brought in to the TSBD on the Wednesday

I still believe at the end of the day Dougherty had the best opportunity to plant the weapon and not be seen doing so.

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Sun 01 Jan 2023, 10:54 pm
Frazier had a rifle (did he own the MC?). Was the rifle stored or stowed away at the Paine's residence? How did that rifle get into the building and up on the upper floors presumably during the lunch hour on the Friday?

 Frazier's rifle was an Enfield.

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Sun 01 Jan 2023, 11:34 pm
Vinny wrote:Frazier had a rifle (did he own the MC?). Was the rifle stored or stowed away at the Paine's residence? How did that rifle get into the building and up on the upper floors presumably during the lunch hour on the Friday?

 Frazier's rifle was an Enfield.
Sorry Vinny I'm quite crappy at expressing myself accurately sometimes. Yes, he had the Enfield...just my musing about whether he had in his possession an MC as well....

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Mon 02 Jan 2023, 8:28 pm
Mick_Purdy wrote:
Vinny wrote:Frazier had a rifle (did he own the MC?). Was the rifle stored or stowed away at the Paine's residence? How did that rifle get into the building and up on the upper floors presumably during the lunch hour on the Friday?

 Frazier's rifle was an Enfield.
Sorry Vinny I'm quite crappy at expressing myself accurately sometimes. Yes, he had the Enfield...just my musing about whether he had in his possession an MC as well....

Quite possible I guess. Would like to ask him but he will likely ignore my question.

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Tue 03 Jan 2023, 2:50 am
Mick_Purdy wrote:

But I ask myself this question- who had the opportunity to plant that rifle at the appropriate time of the day without being seen? I can't buy that it was planted before those guys up on the sixth laying floorboard went to break for lunch. It would seem highly risky, at least to my mind. 

It favors Dougherty also for the need not to plant the rifle. What I mean is planners should have allowed for failure of that particular assassination scenario, in which case they don't want a rifle sitting there all afternoon  while everyone returns to work after lunch as per their normal work day. The rifle should have remained secreted away rather than planted where it would be found unless and until there were actual assassination shots fired in Dealey Plaza.

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Tue 03 Jan 2023, 9:33 am
Jake_Sykes wrote:
Mick_Purdy wrote:

But I ask myself this question- who had the opportunity to plant that rifle at the appropriate time of the day without being seen? I can't buy that it was planted before those guys up on the sixth laying floorboard went to break for lunch. It would seem highly risky, at least to my mind. 

It favors Dougherty also for the need not to plant the rifle. What I mean is planners should have allowed for failure of that particular assassination scenario, in which case they don't want a rifle sitting there all afternoon  while everyone returns to work after lunch as per their normal work day. The rifle should have remained secreted away rather than planted where it would be found unless and until there were actual assassination shots fired in Dealey Plaza.

Yes, I agree Jake. It is perplexing, one would expect that whoever was responsible for the planting of the rifle that he or she wouldn't want that "hanging" around to be found should the assassination of Kennedy been unsuccessful or aborted. And it doesn't necessarily follow that the person planting the rifle was aware of what was planned that day either. Just following instruction....as a trusted employee might do. 

All I know is this; Dougherty by his own admission was on the upper floors of the TSBD, but he has nobody to vouch for that - it's only his say so...we don't really know where he was - and he doesn't have a solid alibi for that crucial time just prior to and immediately after the assassination.

Dougherty, Bill Randle, Linnie Mae Randle, and Buell Frazier are all people of interest in this case to my mind. Frazier is unaccounted for a time during the lunch hour and would be unaccounted for several hours in the afternoon, L Randle's approach to police around 2.30pm - 3.00pm is suspicious IMO, B Randle is unaccounted for during most of the Friday and into the evening, and Dougherty having had a set of keys and the responsibility of opening up and sometimes closing shop is grounds for suspicion regarding his opportunity to aid with getting a rifle into that building undetected.

If this case had ever made it to trial, these people IMO would have faced fierce cross examination.


Last edited by Mick_Purdy on Tue 03 Jan 2023, 1:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Tue 03 Jan 2023, 1:30 pm
Perhaps the rifle was hidden overnight in the building in some secure place like Truly's office. Then handed over to someone like Dougherty to plant on the sixth floor.

Another interesting thing is that it was initially claimed that it was a Mauser, not a MC.

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Fri 24 Nov 2023, 4:24 am
Thanks to Linda Giovanna Zambanini for the cards.

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Tue 28 Nov 2023, 1:40 pm
Fits with what Roy told us.
Round face, glasses(?), mole under nose, tall, blonde haired ghost....
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Sat 02 Dec 2023, 10:28 pm
Goodness....super mystery man Dougherty...lets say, for the sake of argument, he did a sinister and planted the weapon, goodness.....who do you guys suspect put him up to the task? I  mean talk about a very crucial role in setting up the patsy. Damn good research guys.
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