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Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle

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Tue 24 Apr 2018, 11:15 am
That is true, the transcriptions of Frazier on those recordings cannot be trusted to be completely accurate Barto. A lot of assumptions and guesswork I'm feeling when the transcribing was done originally by Gilbride.
I had sent the audio copies of the recordings off to an audio engineer some time back however he could do little with them at that stage. I wonder should we look at reviewing that because of advancements in audio file recovery technology. They've certainly mad huge leaps in the last couple of years in that area.
Could be worth a shot.

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Thu 18 Jun 2020, 4:30 pm
A bump on this topic because a while back Dennis Morrisette posted the HSCA interview, almost 4 hours, on youtube. I have listened to it a couple of times and although painful to the ears, most can be made out. 

I made some rough notes and these appear below with approximate times indicated. I did find that the interview seemed different from my memory of the Gilbride "transcript" that used to be archived here. I remember one revelation used to be Frazier said "framed" when it is simply "named".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GhPJBfLxy8&t=2048s
Frazier Interview Full-HSCA

14.00 Told to take the rest of the day off, maybe Shelley told him? This is the same as Oswald's story.



[ltr]14:20 Left for Irving and turned on Radio – heard JFK Was being worked on at Parkland. He must have left after headcount and before the Senkel was told by Fritz to gather everyone up who was on 6th floor that day for questioning....Sometime between 1.15 and 1.30? When was JFK pronounced dead on radio? Julia Postal heard on radio KLIF about time of Oswald's arrest. [/ltr]



14:51 Went to sisters house and Mother was there – went to hospital – Irving Professional Center –giving  step father oxygen
“Sister said, she was there” she had to go somewhere. I can give him oxygen.
Phone call – after oxygen – two detectives tried to grab him  - he ran to exit  – they said stop or shoot – frisk and shake down – Rose and Stovall – they thought it was strange he ran - took to Irving PS – took to Dallas- no mention of McCabe who initially apprehended him and took him to Irving PS



[ltr]21:10 Fritz attempt at confession – thought Frazier was disrespectful to him[/ltr]



23:10 Police trying to whitewash – lax security procedures
24:00 Found out Oswald in custody – while he was Irving PD or about time he left for Dallas with Rose and Stovall?
25:21 Did not see LHO leave building – only found out was not there at head count – Shelley said he could go home between 1 and 1.30 – but Shelley goes to city hall with other 6th floor workers – must have been before request by Fritz to Senkel. See previous comment
26:30 did not notice police leave TSBD for Tippit shooting
27.00 knew Oswald was missing when he left building
27:20 got home and it was on TV – sister knew what had happened (TSBD) – we both said it was bad thing ------8 sec pause ----- “she said”……..I went to house and mother was there. Asked where sister was and she was at hospital. She had been there a while, he went there to relieve her (LOL).
28:20 Didn’t know about Tippit at that time
29:20 Knew Oswald had been arrested
30:50 wondered if Oswald did it while driving –
31:10 Only thought of curtain rods when questioned – its been reported he had a package with him – what did it look like?
31:30 backed up into car port
32:30 cops went to my sisters house first – asked my mother  - Told them up at hospital with sister
34:30 Frazier mentioned motorcade to Oswald on way to work
39:10 did not see Belknap Seizure or ambulance- must have gone out late
41:30 was printed and photographed
52:00 Did they try to make you say something that want true? Did their questioning center around this packaging and curtain rods? They knew that he…..so they were very interested
1:00:20 Has never seen rifle
1:00:30 what time did you get to the hospital? Didn’t know. Went home shot time then to hospital. Thinks mother had news on TV and knew Tippit shot. At hospital remembers someone being arrested at Texas Theater. Did not now it was Oswald.



[ltr]1:05:00 close to hitting him[/ltr]



1:06:40 made package together? “the one that we made”
1:08:30 knew Oswald was missing, only one... Bill did the count



[ltr]1:09 : when he knew Tippit was shot and Oswald arrested did he get scared? He was scared before, but had never been in trouble before. Was when at hospital with step father he thought Oswald was involved. Did anyone call to say it was Oswald (LMR?) Repeated did not know for sure at that time. Did not know it was Oswald at the hospital.[/ltr]



1:24:40 DPD searched the home – before or after they came to hospital –can’t remember
1:26:30 Was going to need lawyer until Rose and Stovall convinced cops he was telling truth
1:27:10 LMR and minister came to Irving PS
1:29:50 Can’t remember what mother/cops said before search....took his .303 and double gauge shotgun....mother not happy
1:30:10 No one tried to call him at hospital....reference to George O'Toole...assassination tapes
3:29:30 LMR at kitchen sink "says must be late because Lee comes Lee"



[ltr]3:32:00 Conversation with Lee about battery charging – this is new[/ltr]



3:36:00 Parade close to lunch hour – he hadn’t eaten his lunch? Why not as lunch finished at 12.45!
3:39:30 one car garage?
3:40:10 Locked door? "He figured that one out!" "I guess he had"…..LOL


Apologies for the roughness of the notes.....
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Thu 18 Jun 2020, 7:44 pm
Thanks Colin.

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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 12:08 am
Colin Crow wrote:A bump on this topic because a while back Dennis Morrisette posted the HSCA interview, almost 4 hours, on youtube. I have listened to it a couple of times and although painful to the ears, most can be made out. 

I made some rough notes and these appear below with approximate times indicated. I did find that the interview seemed different from my memory of the Gilbride "transcript" that used to be archived here. I remember one revelation used to be Frazier said "framed" when it is simply "named".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GhPJBfLxy8&t=2048s
Frazier Interview Full-HSCA

14.00 Told to take the rest of the day off, maybe Shelley told him? This is the same as Oswald's story.






[ltr]14:20 Left for Irving and turned on Radio – heard JFK Was being worked on at Parkland. He must have left after headcount and before the Senkel was told by Fritz to gather everyone up who was on 6th floor that day for questioning....Sometime between 1.15 and 1.30? When was JFK pronounced dead on radio? Julia Postal heard on radio KLIF about time of Oswald's arrest. [/ltr]






14:51 Went to sisters house and Mother was there – went to hospital – Irving Professional Center –giving  step father oxygen
“Sister said, she was there” she had to go somewhere. I can give him oxygen.
Phone call – after oxygen – two detectives tried to grab him  - he ran to exit  – they said stop or shoot – frisk and shake down – Rose and Stovall – they thought it was strange he ran - took to Irving PS – took to Dallas- no mention of McCabe who initially apprehended him and took him to Irving PS






[ltr]21:10 Fritz attempt at confession – thought Frazier was disrespectful to him[/ltr]






23:10 Police trying to whitewash – lax security procedures
24:00 Found out Oswald in custody – while he was Irving PD or about time he left for Dallas with Rose and Stovall?
25:21 Did not see LHO leave building – only found out was not there at head count – Shelley said he could go home between 1 and 1.30 – but Shelley goes to city hall with other 6th floor workers – must have been before request by Fritz to Senkel. See previous comment
26:30 did not notice police leave TSBD for Tippit shooting
27.00 knew Oswald was missing when he left building
27:20 got home and it was on TV – sister knew what had happened (TSBD) – we both said it was bad thing ------8 sec pause ----- “she said”……..I went to house and mother was there. Asked where sister was and she was at hospital. She had been there a while, he went there to relieve her (LOL).
28:20 Didn’t know about Tippit at that time
29:20 Knew Oswald had been arrested
30:50 wondered if Oswald did it while driving –
31:10 Only thought of curtain rods when questioned – its been reported he had a package with him – what did it look like?
31:30 backed up into car port
32:30 cops went to my sisters house first – asked my mother  - Told them up at hospital with sister
34:30 Frazier mentioned motorcade to Oswald on way to work
39:10 did not see Belknap Seizure or ambulance- must have gone out late
41:30 was printed and photographed
52:00 Did they try to make you say something that want true? Did their questioning center around this packaging and curtain rods? They knew that he…..so they were very interested
1:00:20 Has never seen rifle
1:00:30 what time did you get to the hospital? Didn’t know. Went home shot time then to hospital. Thinks mother had news on TV and knew Tippit shot. At hospital remembers someone being arrested at Texas Theater. Did not now it was Oswald.






[ltr]1:05:00 close to hitting him[/ltr]






1:06:40 made package together? “the one that we made”
1:08:30 knew Oswald was missing, only one... Bill did the count






[ltr]1:09 : when he knew Tippit was shot and Oswald arrested did he get scared? He was scared before, but had never been in trouble before. Was when at hospital with step father he thought Oswald was involved. Did anyone call to say it was Oswald (LMR?) Repeated did not know for sure at that time. Did not know it was Oswald at the hospital.[/ltr]






1:24:40 DPD searched the home – before or after they came to hospital –can’t remember
1:26:30 Was going to need lawyer until Rose and Stovall convinced cops he was telling truth
1:27:10 LMR and minister came to Irving PS
1:29:50 Can’t remember what mother/cops said before search....took his .303 and double gauge shotgun....mother not happy
1:30:10 No one tried to call him at hospital....reference to George O'Toole...assassination tapes
3:29:30 LMR at kitchen sink "says must be late because Lee comes Lee"






[ltr]3:32:00 Conversation with Lee about battery charging – this is new[/ltr]






3:36:00 Parade close to lunch hour – he hadn’t eaten his lunch? Why not as lunch finished at 12.45!
3:39:30 one car garage?
3:40:10 Locked door? "He figured that one out!" "I guess he had"…..LOL


Apologies for the roughness of the notes.....
Colin, I said from the start that the transcript Gilbride had was worthless. As far as I can see, this makes far more sense. 

One thing - claiming that Linnie Mae was at the hospital and that it was his mother who sent the cops there is at total odds with the official story that Linnie Mae talked to Adamcik outside the Paine home and sent them to the wrong hospital.

He also says he had forgotten about the curtain rods until he was interviewed by the cops? Hmmm.

_________________
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-----------------------------
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 9:58 am
Greg, I do not believe the curtain rod story was concocted until Buell was at the hospital. It seems that some cops visited the Randle house and spoke with the mother. Frazier had already retuned home some time previously. Likely around 1.45. The key here is the missing time that is somehow assisted by Rose and Stovall. These guys claimed to have waited near the Paine's for Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford to arrive to conduct the search. That event appears to be an hour or so later than it really happened. It was likely they arrived and spoke to Ruth and Marina between 2.30 and 2.45. Frazier was no apprehended for some hours at the Irving medical centre. Lots of time for him to prepare something.

I believe Linnie May went back home and it was the cops who asked her about a package. The paper bag as "evidence" was likely relayed in the communications between Dallas cops and the Paine household. Something like....."ask them is they saw him with a paper package that morning"..Linnie May simply complied to get her brother off the hook and then relayed that information to him at the hospital. "I told them he had a long paper package". Note that Linnie May said nothing about curtain rods to Adamcik that afternoon. The whole curtain rod package story evolved during the long Friday afternoon at the hospital.

Another strange thing is that Frazier says nothing about McCabe detaining him at the hospital and taking him to Irving Police station. His story is that it was Rose and Stovall who apprehended ended him. No police reports claim that.

I think his "successful "polygraph was simply used to as leverage against Oswald. Fritz could then say we have Frazier saying he carried the package and he was telling the truth. No matter what the real outcome was.
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 9:59 am
You all know how I feel about Wesley and his BS stories. If even half of the transcribing is near accurate then he has a lot of explaining to do. 
If someone has the audio from those interview sessions of Frazier and the HSCA investigators please send them to me. There has been remarkable advancements in the last couple of years with Audio technology. TIA.

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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:08 am
Hey Mick. The link to the YouTube recording was in my recent post. You can simply use various tools to download the audio as an mp3. Then you have a digital file to work with.
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:11 am
Colin Crow wrote:Greg, I do not believe the curtain rod story was concocted until Buell was at the hospital. It seems that some cops visited the Randle house and spoke with the mother. Frazier had already retuned home some time previously. Likely around 1.45. The key here is the missing time that is somehow assisted by Rose and Stovall. These guys claimed to have waited near the Paine's for Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford to arrive to conduct the search. That event appears to be an hour or so later than it really happened. It was likely they arrived and spoke to Ruth and Marina between 2.30 and 2.45. Frazier was no apprehended for some hours at the Irving medical centre. Lots of time for him to prepare something.

I believe Linnie May went back home and it was the cops who asked her about a package. The paper bag as "evidence" was likely relayed in the communications between Dallas cops and the Paine household. Something like....."ask them is they saw him with a paper package that morning"..Linnie May simply complied to get her brother off the hook and then relayed that information to him at the hospital. "I told them he had a long paper package". Note that Linnie May said nothing about curtain rods to Adamcik that afternoon. The whole curtain rod package story evolved during the long Friday afternoon at the hospital.

Another strange thing is that Frazier says nothing about McCabe detaining him at the hospital and taking him to Irving Police station. His story is that it was Rose and Stovall who apprehended ended him. No police reports claim that.

I think his "successful "polygraph was simply used to as leverage against Oswald. Fritz could then say we have Frazier saying he carried the package and he was telling the truth. No matter what the real outcome was.
Colin, great to have you here,

I'll reread the Frazier threads and try and somehow unravel the audio from the HSCA. Wesley claimed he told his sister about the curtain rods Thursday night. She as best I can remember claimed that as well. There are in the record 4 different versions (Official Reports) of Wesley at the hospital and having been arrested. 

I think when we throw in to the mix Bill Randle having been suspected of ordering the rifle scope, Roberts from Irving telling the Schneiders that Willie had driven Lee to work that morning and if it can be believed Linnie's disclosure about a package to Adamcik out front of the Paines it all starts to smell, at least in my opinion.

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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:12 am
Colin Crow wrote:Hey Mick. The link to the YouTube recording was in my recent post. You can simply use various tools to download the audio as an mp3. Then you have a digital file to work with.
Hey Colin,

many thanks mate. Hope you're well and life is kind especially in these weird times.

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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:27 am
What we do know is that the Frazier, Randle, Rose and Stovall "stories" stink to high heaven. There is a massive time frame shift from the cops and a time contraction by Buell. From what I have seen he should be brought in to do some explaining, even now.

He would have been under enormous pressure. He was involved in getting the accused assassin a job at the TSBD. He gave him a lift to work. He left the building shortly after, at a time just before all those who had been on the 6 th floor that day were taken to HQ for questioning. He went outside just before the parade went past. He asked Shelley if they could break early to watch the parade. Sure looks like an accomplice doesn’t he.....I bet he would have said anything to clear himself....especially just lie about a package.
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:28 am
Mick Purdy wrote:
Colin Crow wrote:Hey Mick. The link to the YouTube recording was in my recent post. You can simply use various tools to download the audio as an mp3. Then you have a digital file to work with.
Hey Colin,

many thanks mate. Hope you're well and life is kind especially in these weird times.
Thanks Mick. Certainly 2020 has been a weird time for us all but fit and well. More time on my hands now as I retired at the end of Feb.


Last edited by Colin Crow on Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:33 am
Colin Crow wrote:What we do know is that the Frazier, Randle, Rose and Stovall "stories" stink to high heaven. There is a massive time frame shift from the cops and a time contraction by Buell. From what I have seen he should be brought in to do some explaining, even now.

He would have been under enormous pressure. He was involved in getting the accused assassin a job at the TSBD. He gave him a lift to work. He left the building shortly after, at a time just before all those who had been on the 6 th floor that day were taken to HQ for questioning. He went outside just before the parade went past. He asked Shelley if they could break early to watch the parade. Sure looks like an accomplice doesn’t he.....I bet he would have said anything to clear himself....especially just lie about a package.
I believe there is ample material available in the record to impeach Frazier's many versions of events surrounding Thursday and Friday. He is alive. He should be asked questions - the right questions under Oath. Like wise for Ruth Paine.

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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:48 am
Mick Purdy wrote:
Colin Crow wrote:What we do know is that the Frazier, Randle, Rose and Stovall "stories" stink to high heaven. There is a massive time frame shift from the cops and a time contraction by Buell. From what I have seen he should be brought in to do some explaining, even now.

He would have been under enormous pressure. He was involved in getting the accused assassin a job at the TSBD. He gave him a lift to work. He left the building shortly after, at a time just before all those who had been on the 6 th floor that day were taken to HQ for questioning. He went outside just before the parade went past. He asked Shelley if they could break early to watch the parade. Sure looks like an accomplice doesn’t he.....I bet he would have said anything to clear himself....especially just lie about a package.
I believe there is ample material available in the record to impeach Frazier's many versions of events surrounding Thursday and Friday. He is alive. He should be asked questions - the right questions under Oath. Like wise for Ruth Paine.
Agreed Mick.
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:50 am
Colin Crow wrote:Greg, I do not believe the curtain rod story was concocted until Buell was at the hospital. It seems that some cops visited the Randle house and spoke with the mother. Frazier had already retuned home some time previously. Likely around 1.45. The key here is the missing time that is somehow assisted by Rose and Stovall. These guys claimed to have waited near the Paine's for Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford to arrive to conduct the search. That event appears to be an hour or so later than it really happened. It was likely they arrived and spoke to Ruth and Marina between 2.30 and 2.45. Frazier was no apprehended for some hours at the Irving medical centre. Lots of time for him to prepare something.

I believe Linnie May went back home and it was the cops who asked her about a package. The paper bag as "evidence" was likely relayed in the communications between Dallas cops and the Paine household. Something like....."ask them is they saw him with a paper package that morning"..Linnie May simply complied to get her brother off the hook and then relayed that information to him at the hospital. "I told them he had a long paper package". Note that Linnie May said nothing about curtain rods to Adamcik that afternoon. The whole curtain rod package story evolved during the long Friday afternoon at the hospital.

Another strange thing is that Frazier says nothing about McCabe detaining him at the hospital and taking him to Irving Police station. His story is that it was Rose and Stovall who apprehended ended him. No police reports claim that.

I think his "successful "polygraph was simply used to as leverage against Oswald. Fritz could then say we have Frazier saying he carried the package and he was telling the truth. No matter what the real outcome was.
The elephant in the room is that Ruth did indeed have curtain rods stored in her garage wrapped in exactly the type of cheap crinkly paper that Buell described for Oswald's alleged package.

What's more, said rods measured 3' 6" -- same as the carbine that was ordered (as opposed to the one that was found).

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From Ruth's testimony

Senator COOPER - Did you wrap these rods in the paper? Had you wrapped them?
Mrs. PAINE - Sometime previously I had.
Senator COOPER - How long before?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, possibly a year.
Senator COOPER - What?
Mrs. PAINE - Possibly a year.
Senator COOPER - As far as you know, they had never been changed?
Mrs. PAINE - Moved about, but not changed.
Senator COOPER - Can you just describe the length?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Senator COOPER - The length of the rods, at the time you wrapped them.
Mrs. PAINE - They would be 36 inches when pushed together.


Follow the bouncing ball

The rods had been stored in the garage for about a year, wrapped in paper and measured 36 inches. Ruth was deposed in March, 1964. Go back a year to March, 1963.

March, 1963... rods taken from bedroom measuring 36" when assembled, wrapped in paper and stored in the garaged where they are "moved around" from time to time.

March, 1963... "Hidell" orders carbine measuring 36" when assembled. Allegedly this weapon is eventually wrapped in June's baby blanket and stored in Ruth's garage where it is moved about from time to time. Then it is wrapped in cheap crinkly paper and taken to the TSBD where it transforms into a 40" carbine. It was magic paper.

The paper used by Ruth for the wrapping would have been from a roll of cheap crinkly light brown wrapping paper that you could buy at a five and dime.

Those curtain rods cannot be ignored in whatever scenario is put forward.

Note also Cooper's inquisitiveness about the length of said rods. Methinks Cooper was sniffing a giant rat.

_________________
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              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:56 am
greg parker wrote:
Colin Crow wrote:Greg, I do not believe the curtain rod story was concocted until Buell was at the hospital. It seems that some cops visited the Randle house and spoke with the mother. Frazier had already retuned home some time previously. Likely around 1.45. The key here is the missing time that is somehow assisted by Rose and Stovall. These guys claimed to have waited near the Paine's for Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford to arrive to conduct the search. That event appears to be an hour or so later than it really happened. It was likely they arrived and spoke to Ruth and Marina between 2.30 and 2.45. Frazier was no apprehended for some hours at the Irving medical centre. Lots of time for him to prepare something.

I believe Linnie May went back home and it was the cops who asked her about a package. The paper bag as "evidence" was likely relayed in the communications between Dallas cops and the Paine household. Something like....."ask them is they saw him with a paper package that morning"..Linnie May simply complied to get her brother off the hook and then relayed that information to him at the hospital. "I told them he had a long paper package". Note that Linnie May said nothing about curtain rods to Adamcik that afternoon. The whole curtain rod package story evolved during the long Friday afternoon at the hospital.

Another strange thing is that Frazier says nothing about McCabe detaining him at the hospital and taking him to Irving Police station. His story is that it was Rose and Stovall who apprehended ended him. No police reports claim that.

I think his "successful "polygraph was simply used to as leverage against Oswald. Fritz could then say we have Frazier saying he carried the package and he was telling the truth. No matter what the real outcome was.
The elephant in the room is that Ruth did indeed have curtain rods stored in her garage wrapped in exactly the type of cheap crinkly paper that Buell described for Oswald's alleged package.

What's more, said rods measured 3' 6" -- same as the carbine that was ordered (as opposed to the one that was found).

frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 Crinkl10

From Ruth's testimony

Senator COOPER - Did you wrap these rods in the paper? Had you wrapped them?
Mrs. PAINE - Sometime previously I had.
Senator COOPER - How long before?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, possibly a year.
Senator COOPER - What?
Mrs. PAINE - Possibly a year.
Senator COOPER - As far as you know, they had never been changed?
Mrs. PAINE - Moved about, but not changed.
Senator COOPER - Can you just describe the length?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Senator COOPER - The length of the rods, at the time you wrapped them.
Mrs. PAINE - They would be 36 inches when pushed together.


Follow the bouncing ball

The rods had been stored in the garage for about a year, wrapped in paper and measured 36 inches. Ruth was deposed in March, 1964. Go back a year to March, 1963.

March, 1963... rods taken from bedroom measuring 36" when assembled, wrapped in paper and stored in the garaged where they are "moved around" from time to time.

March, 1963... "Hidell" orders carbine measuring 36" when assembled. Allegedly this weapon is eventually wrapped in June's baby blanket and stored in Ruth's garage where it is moved about from time to time. Then it is wrapped in cheap crinkly paper and taken to the TSBD where it transforms into a 40" carbine. It was magic paper.

The paper used by Ruth for the wrapping would have been from a roll of cheap crinkly light brown wrapping paper that you could buy at a five and dime.

Those curtain rods cannot be ignored in whatever scenario is put forward.
Bang on Greg.

That Wesley spoke of the curtain rods, Linnie Mae too after the fact when all the evidence suggests that Lee Oswald had no such package, it smacks of conspiracy to frame an innocent man for mine. Just my five and dimes worth.

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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 11:48 am
Greg have you seen the work of Alan Ford on the curtain rods associated with Ruth Paine?

frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 904-F9107-DE7-E-4260-963-C-A98160661-C8-D

"Sequence of events:

1. March 15: Agent Howlett submits 2 curtain rods to Lieutenant L. C. Day for fingerprinting (to check for a match with Oswald's prints)

2. March 19: Ruth Paine testifies in Washington that 2 curtain rods have remained undisturbed in her garage since months before the assassination; she oh-so-obligingly agrees to allow the WC to inspect these 2 rods in situ when they visit her home in Irving in a week's time


3. March 23: Agent Howlett inspects 2 curtain rods in the Paine residence which have supposedly lain there undisturbed for months

3. March 24: Lieutenant L. C. Day releases back to Agent Howlett the 2 curtain rods he had received from him on March 15.

The glaring timeline anomaly leads to an inescapable conclusion:

The 2 curtain rods submitted to Lieutenant Day on March 15 were tested for Oswald's fingerprints

-------------not because they came from the Paine garage (impossible according to the WC's own timeline [March 15 preceded March 23!], and absurd on the face of it [Mr Oswald's fingerprints on curtain rods never even taken from the Paine household would be an irrelevance to the case])
-------------but because they had been found somewhere other than in the Paine garage.

The on-the-record scene in the Paine garage on March 23, in short, was a staged affair:
-------------The 2 curtain rods which Agent Howlett inspected in situ had been removed from that garage by Mr Oswald on the night of Thursday 11/22 and brought to the Depository building the next morning in a large light-brown paper bag
-------------These 2 curtain rods had been found---somewhere other than in the Paine garage---after the assassination"


It’s been a while since I looked at this one. Not sure what to make of it. But it seems the evidence numbers relate to the Paine rods.
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 11:57 am
Mick,

this is what I think... those rods were given to the Oswald's to use if needed when they found a place. Lee wrapped them in Junie's blanket, still also wrapped in the brown paper. The rods were moved around out of the way by Mike between March 63 and whatever date they were given to the Oswald's and the package was wrapped in the blanket. After that, Mike probably moved the blanket/package once or twice out of his way.

As shown on the  Washing Machine Conspiracy thread, Ruth was in Oak Cliff with Lee on Saturday the 15th looking at an apartment and phoning about rental of a washing machine. Was Oswald planning on taking apartment from the following weekend? Did it need rods and curtains? 

I think perhaps it may have been mentioned to Buell that week or the previous that he might be bringing in curtain rods one day. Friday the 22nd may well have been the day he was going to. Except that when he went to grab them, they were not where he had left them. Ruth had placed them up on high shelf (where they remained until at least the day that the WC paid a visit to the garage to look at them.

So... Lee departs without them. He could not be allowed to take them because they would then be found at the book depository and confirm he took those and not a rifle. But with no curtain rods at the TSBD or left in Buell's car (which was thoroughly searched), he can now be said to have carried anything they want of a similar length. He can also made out to be a liar by having him disclaim the curtain story (actually, he is quoted in one report as simply saying the Buell was mistaken and was thinking of a past occurrence).

The only plan that Lee knew of that day was to meet Marina and Ruth after work in Oak Cliff so Marina could check the apartment out and buy new shoes for Marina. Ruth had testified that she and Marina had planned on shoe shopping on the afternoon of Nov 22 with $10 Lee had given his wife for that purpose.

I believe Lee overheard Shelley tell his wife on the phone that there would be no more work that day and so called Ruth to  ask if they could meet him in Oak Cliff sooner as he would be leaving work shortly due to what had happened.

I think Ruth has fobbed him off with some excuse or other and that they would have to stick to the original time. I think she then suggested he go see a movie at the Texas Theatre and they would meet hi outside after that.

According to Asst DA Jim Bowie, there were a number of calls about someone suspicious going into the TT who matched the suspect from Dealey. Was Ruth one of those callers? More than possible.  This would explain why it took so long for Postal and Brewer to give statements. There was a lot to be ironed out to get the stories straight.

During testimony, Marina talks about Lee reminding her to get Junie some new shoes.

It was never Junie who was getting new shoes. It was Marina. It got changed to Junie to throw off any connecting of dots. But good ol' quaker Ruth isn't allowed to tell a lie. Guild the lily? Sure. Answer a different question to the one asked? Sure. Deflect? Sure. Dance around the facts? Sure. But lie? NEVER EVER EVER.

While we are at the TT, let's also throw in this. Fay Puckett... daughter of the Johnsons, had a photographic studio opposite the theatre. Her daughter Pat Hall, claimed from around 2006 and beyond that her mother witnessed Oswald's arrest and recognized him as a paying guest of her parents. Hall further claimed that her mother phoned the Johnsons to tell them. Of course, I believe Puckett was mistaking Oswald for Herbert Leon Lee... but let's put aside.

The Johnson's claimed to have been contacted by a railroad cop friend at the cafe they ran

Mr. JOHNSON. No. Uh--we have a friend that is a policeman, works for Cotton Belt Railroad. And he called us--called up here and told us. Of course, we had heard all the sirens and everything, you know, going, and we couldn't imagine what it was. And Nicholson called us and told us that he had heard it over the radio.
Mr. BELIN. He had heard over the radio that the President had been shot?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then, did you turn on your radio?

Neither of the Johnsons mention being contacted by their daughter.

I think Fay Puckett phoned the railway cop and passed the info about who thought the arrestee was to him. He has phoned the Johnsons and then contacted DPD to tell them.

And that is how the DPD found out about the N Beckley boarding house so quickly. Not army intel. Not Oswald. Not via a reverse phone number check.

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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 12:01 pm
Colin Crow wrote:Greg have you seen the work of Alan Ford on the curtain rods associated with Ruth Paine?

frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 904-F9107-DE7-E-4260-963-C-A98160661-C8-D

"Sequence of events:

1. March 15: Agent Howlett submits 2 curtain rods to Lieutenant L. C. Day for fingerprinting (to check for a match with Oswald's prints)

2. March 19: Ruth Paine testifies in Washington that 2 curtain rods have remained undisturbed in her garage since months before the assassination; she oh-so-obligingly agrees to allow the WC to inspect these 2 rods in situ when they visit her home in Irving in a week's time


3. March 23: Agent Howlett inspects 2 curtain rods in the Paine residence which have supposedly lain there undisturbed for months

3. March 24: Lieutenant L. C. Day releases back to Agent Howlett the 2 curtain rods he had received from him on March 15.

The glaring timeline anomaly leads to an inescapable conclusion:

The 2 curtain rods submitted to Lieutenant Day on March 15 were tested for Oswald's fingerprints

-------------not because they came from the Paine garage (impossible according to the WC's own timeline [March 15 preceded March 23!], and absurd on the face of it [Mr Oswald's fingerprints on curtain rods never even taken from the Paine household would be an irrelevance to the case])
-------------but because they had been found somewhere other than in the Paine garage.

The on-the-record scene in the Paine garage on March 23, in short, was a staged affair:
-------------The 2 curtain rods which Agent Howlett inspected in situ had been removed from that garage by Mr Oswald on the night of Thursday 11/22 and brought to the Depository building the next morning in a large light-brown paper bag
-------------These 2 curtain rods had been found---somewhere other than in the Paine garage---after the assassination"


It’s been a while since I looked at this one. Not sure what to make of it. But it seems the evidence numbers relate to the Paine rods.
Thanks Colin. I knew about them being fingerprinted, but hadn't noticed the screwed up timeline. Interesting.

The only nitpick I have is that they had not being lying around  undisturbed for a few months, but in fact about a year - around the time of the carbine order. And they had been moved around prior to being put up on the shelving.

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-----------------------------
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 12:24 pm
Greg, Alan also found this exhibit.....

frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 6-FDB4-B86-5-C4-F-4480-A9-C3-69472354-F6-C4

Note that the time of release is different and that now Howlett is not listed as the releasee.

Something strange going on as Oswald's prints on rods found in the Paine garage prove nothing.


Last edited by Colin Crow on Fri 19 Jun 2020, 12:25 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo)
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 12:39 pm
Paine and Frazier have a lot to answer for. They seem to be holding on to some big secrets.

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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 12:45 pm
I believe this to be the Paine rods from National Archives.....could be wrong.

frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 94-F80091-651-A-4-EC5-8-C3-C-B9632-EB5745-C

frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 148-E9-A0-B-8540-44-CA-AA8-B-67-FD295-CC025

If they are it looks like they are about 27 inches long. Alan believes the 275 and 276 evidence numbers relate to the lengths of each half. 27.5 and 27.6 inches respectively.
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 1:17 pm
Colin Crow wrote:I believe this to be the Paine rods from National Archives.....could be wrong.

frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 94-F80091-651-A-4-EC5-8-C3-C-B9632-EB5745-C

frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 148-E9-A0-B-8540-44-CA-AA8-B-67-FD295-CC025

If they are it looks like they are about 27 inches long. Alan believes the 275 and 276 evidence numbers relate to the lengths of each half. 27.5 and 27.6 inches respectively.
They look like what was described by Ruth. In fact, that is pretty much how Mike described what was in the blanket he moved.

I doubt that Exhibit Numbers were allotted in such a manner. She testified that when assembled, they were about 36". She was usually pretty precise in such things. 

But the 27" theory on the other hand, does fit with the bag length a described by Buell and Linnie... maybe there was something else that goes into the assembly that adds about 8 inches?

Whatever the case, I like the way this is unfolding.

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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 1:29 pm
From Mike's testimony

"Also, I had my vision of the pipe. It had an iron pipe about 30 inches long with a short section of pipe going off 45 degrees. No words here, it just happened that I did have this image in my mind of trying to fill up that package in the back burner of my mind."

Here is the sketch he had made the previous day showing what he thought was in the blanket after moving it a couple of times.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1138#relPageId=25&tab=page

Is the sketch closer in looks to the carbine or the curtain rods? 

If this was the carbine (it wasn't, but go along with me here) what part of the carbine was the "shovel"? 

If it was the curtain rods (it was!), what in this case, is the "shovel"? Was it a piece you needed for assembly that added the required length to get it to 36"?

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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 1:30 pm
I think from what I have seen I am confident that Linnie May knew nothing of the curtain rod story or a package when she started talking to Adamcik. I believe it was the police who first mentioned a package to her. There was communication back and forth between Dallas and Paine's that afternoon. Linnie May did not talk to them until the cars were packed with evidence and arrangements for the children were made. It might be around 5pm. Remember that Frazier claimed the cops came for him not long after he arrived at the hospital. Total BS.....it had to be many hours before they came for him.
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 4:21 pm
I think from what I have seen I am confident that Linnie May knew nothing of the curtain rod story or a package when she started talking to Adamcik. 
Colin, she was supposedly told the curtain rod story the night before by way of explaining why Oswald was arriving a day early. If that was not the story given to her to explain the early arrival, then either she was given some other story or no story at all, most likely because Oswald was there every night, so nothing out of the ordinary for him to arrive with Buell on Thursday.


I believe it was the police who first mentioned a package to her. 
On what basis did they mention a package to her? Are you saying thy already knew about a package from Buell before Linnie spoke to them?  I can think of zero reason for for anyone  simply assuming the weapon was taken inside a paper bag.


There was communication back and forth between Dallas and Paine's that afternoon. Linnie May did not talk to them until the cars were packed with evidence and arrangements for the children were made. It might be around 5pm. Remember that Frazier claimed the cops came for him not long after he arrived at the hospital. Total BS.....it had to be many hours before they came for him.
So this is all by way of saying that it was indeed Buell who told the cops about a bag before they spoke to Linnie?



_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

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