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Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle

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frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 Empty Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle

Tue 22 Sep 2009, 11:12 pm
First topic message reminder :

BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER

Whose line is it anyhow?

Which School Book Depository (TSBD) employee stated that on November 22nd, 1963, he:

1. took a sandwich and piece of fruit for lunch in a brown paper bag and that it sat beside him during the ride to work?

2. ate lunch alone that day?

3. left the building after eating lunch because it didn't seem like any further work would be done and he therefore decided to take the afternoon off?

If you answered Lee Harvey Oswald to the first question, you would be correct. More than one of his interrogators recalled him saying this. If you answered Buell Wesley Frazier, you'd also be correct. He made this claim during testimony.

If you answered Lee Harvey Oswald to the 2nd question, you would be correct, according to at least Special Agent Bookhout. If you answered Buell Wesley Frazier, you would also be correct, per his testimony.

If you answered Lee Harvey Oswald to the third question, you would be correct, again according to some of his interrogators. If you answered Buell Wesley Frazier, you would also be correct - for that, in substance, is what he told Historian William Manchester in 1964.[1]

Which TSBD employee broke normal routines on that same day?

If you answered Lee Harvey Oswald, you would be correct. He came to work that day with Frazier from Irving after breaking normal routine and arriving at the Paine residence on the Thursday after work instead of Friday. If you answered Buell Wesley Frazier, you would also be correct. He testified before the Warren Commission that he usually ate lunch in the first floor Domino room, and on rare occasion, in the 2nd floor lunch room, but on that day, he ate alone in the basement.[2] He also testified that when Oswald rode with him to work, they would walk over to the building together from the car park, but on November 22, he decided to stay in his old Chevy to watch the rail cars being switched and run his engine "to charge up [his] battery". Oswald, who had walked on ahead, stopped and waited, then resumed walking when he noticed Frazier getting out. However, Frazier continued to dawdle watching the trains, allowing Oswald to get further and further away from him.

From Huntsville
Frazier arrived from Huntsville, 200 miles south of Dallas during early September and moved in with his sister, Linnie Mae Randle, her husband, Bill, and their three kids. The residence, at 2439 West Fifth St, Irving, was owned by Bill Randle's father. The Paine residence was only half a block away. Frazier testified that the reason for his move was to find employment, and that after having no success on his own, he signed up with several employment agencies. He further testified that he was phoned about the position at the TSBD by the Massey Employment Agency, and as a result, attended an interview with Roy Truly on September 13, commencing work the same day.

It seems incredible that there is nothing in the records indicating the Massey Employment Agency was contacted to confirm the referral.[3] It should have seemed important to have this cleared up given that Buell’s story is in conflict with the testimony of his sister who told the commission that she had helped her brother search for work, because as a local, she knew all the places that "someone with, you know, not very much of an education can find work." The help she gave consisted of listing all such places. It was apparently as a result of that success, a similar list was made for Oswald. If Buell had found the job through an agency, the logical thing to do would have been to recommend that agency to Oswald. No such recommendation appears to have been made.

A whole mess of trouble
By the evening of the assassination, Frazier was in danger of being implicated in the crime. He was located at the Irving Professional Center visiting his step-father, David Williams - a patient at the clinic - and taken into custody by Det. McCabe of Irving Police. He was then picked up by Dallas police and taken to the clinic where his car was examined.

From there, he was driven to his sister's home where a search uncovered an Enfield rifle with scope and full clip and a partial box of ammunition.[4] Soon afterwards, Linnie Mae arrived home, and she and Frazier - accompanied by a Baptist preacher referred to as Rev. Campble [sic], were taken to Police Headquarters at City Hall for questioning.[5]

The polygraph
Buell and Linnie Mae were questioned by police until 9:00 pm, at which time their affidavits were taken. After this was done, Detectives Rose and Stovall were driving them back to Irving when a call came through to return them to City Hall. Upon arrival, Rose phoned Captain Fritz who ordered that Frazier be polygraphed. By the time the Crime Lab's RD Lewis arrived to administer the test, it was 11:20. The test concluded at 12:10am. [6] According to the combined report of Rose, Stovall and Adamcik, the test "showed conclusively that Wesley Frazier was truthful".

But was a proper polygraph test actually administered, or was it a prop to get Frazier's future cooperation on the bag alleged to have been carried that morning by Oswald? The affidavit itself gives no detail on the bag except approximate length and that it was folded. What would be required later would be an admission it resembled the bag found in the building.

Between Lewis' arrival time and the time the test was completed, only fifty minutes had elapsed. This seems woefully inadequate when one considers a pre-test interview is standard protocol. On top of that, time was also required to write the questions, including the so-called "control" questions. All this, plus the test in 50 minutes hardly seems possible.

Officially, only Rose and Stovall witnessed the test. However, according to Jim Bishop's 1968 book , The Day Kennedy Was Shot, there were five other officers in the room and doorway apart from Lewis, and the young man at the center of the attention was in a state of near hysteria.

By contrast, Rose, interviewed for Larry Sneed's book, No More Silence claimed to view the test through a one-way mirror. He told Sneed that though "it wasn't an ideal situation for a polygraph... it wasn't necessarily bad either because Wesley was a straight guy. He seemed totally straight forward and passed the test with flying colors."

If such a test was actually conducted with Frazier passing it, why has there never been a report produced by Lewis? After extensive searching, the only report found where Lewis is said to have stated he performed such a test, is page 291 of Commission Document 7, which is an interview of Lewis conducted by FBI Special Agent, Vince Drain on November 29, 1963. And what an interesting interview it was.

The FBI takes over the handling of Frazier
On December 1, (the same day that Drain interviewed Lewis) Bardwell ("Bob") Odum and Gibbon McNeely interviewed Frazier at his place of residence. During the interview, Frazier showed them where the bag extended to when he saw it on the back seat of his car. This measured 27 inches - three inches more than the estimate he had given police. An improvement. Frazier then repeated what he'd said during his polygraph - that at the time he saw it being carried by Oswald, he'd concluded that the package was wrapped "in a cheap, crinkly, thin paper sack, such as that provided by 5 and 10 cent stores". But this time, he added that reflecting upon the matter, he realized that he'd reached this conclusion when he'd observed the package under Oswald's arm as Oswald was turned with his back to him. Odum, using a replica sack made from material at the TSBD, reconstructed the scene, which showed the closest Frazier had got to Oswald was 12 feet, and that the visible area of the package from Frazier's vantage point measured nine inches by one inch. He also now stated that his conclusion about the sack being made of crinkly paper from a 5 and dime was based to a "considerable extent" upon the fact that the color of the sack was a very light brown as compared with the very dark brown paper used for heavier grocery sacks, and that the color of the replica was the same color as the one he'd seen in Oswald's possession. But the FBI cannot have it both ways. By reconstructing how Frazier described Oswald carrying the bag in order to convince the witness he was probably mistaken about it being made of cheap, crinkly paper, the FBI by extension, was admitting the rifle was not inside the bag, as the broken down Mannlicher-Carcano is simply far oo long to be carried in that manner. On the other hand, if they had insisted Oswald carried the bag in some other way, then they would have had no basis to suggest Frazier's initial description was inaccurate. In any case, Frazier had seen Oswald's bag up close inside the car.

The Federal agents also had with them, the original. This sack, too - said to be stained from fingerprint testing, was shown to Frazier who agreed that if it had been the same color as the replica, it may well have been the bag Oswald carried. As a final word, he added that he felt he was in "no position to definitely state that this was or was not the sack."[7] No position, indeed. The fact is, if the bag Frazier saw had been the same color as the replica, it was unlikely that he saw the bag in evidence. The commissions own experts had testified that the two bags were different in color – even prior to the discoloration to the original.

LINNIE MAE RANDLE

Denial
Ruth Paine testified that Linnie Mae had said “they needed another person at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked." Despite Linnie Mae's denial in her own testimony that she was aware of any possible vacancy, the Warren Commission Report went with Ms Paine's version, flatly stating, "One of the neighbors present, Linnie Mae Randle, said that her brother had recently been hired as a schoolbook order filler at the Texas School Book Depository and she thought that the depository might need additional help."

Multitasking
On the morning of Friday, November 22, 1963, when Linnie Mae saw Oswald, she was

1. having coffee after getting up early (WC testimony of Det. John Adamcik, recalling his conversation with Linnie Mae on the afternoon of the assassination)

2. at the sink preparing lunch for Buell (WC testimonies of Buell Frazier and Linnie Mar Randle)

3. washing dishes (Linnie Mae to author Jim Bishop in 1968)

Suspicion
Detectives Rose, Stovall and Adamcik, along with three county officers, arrived at the Paine residence between 3:00pm and 3:30pm. At approximately 3:45pm, Michael Paine arrived. At some point after this, Adamcik accompanied Ruth Paine to the house of a neighbor to arrange care for the children so that Ruth and Marina could be taken to City Hall. On their way back, Linnie Mae drove up to the house, and was asked by Adamcik if she knew anything about what had happened, and if she knew Oswald [8] In response, she informed him that her brother, Wesley Frazier, took Oswald to work that morning, and that she had seen him (Oswald} carry something over to her brother's car and put it in the back. The object was long, and wrapped in paper or a box. According to Adamcik, she thought this was suspicious. She then told Adamcik that her brother could be reached at Parkland Hospital where he was visiting his step-father [9]

Under questioning during testimony, he also recalled that she'd told him it was unusual for Oswald to be at the Paine's residence on a Thursday; that in the past, he'd always arrived on the Friday and stayed the weekend.

In an interview with the FBI, Linnie Mae stated that she had seen Oswald arrive with Buell on the Thursday and had asked Frazier about this change of routine. Her brother, she said, had replied that Oswald had come over a day early to pick up curtain rods for his apartment. She repeated this story before the Commission.

None of this however, was mentioned in her statement made for the police on the night of the assassination. If this conversation did take place between brother and sister, then Linnie Mae had no reason at all to be suspicious after seeing Oswald the next morning with a long package. Nor did she have any reason to believe there was anything "unusual" about Oswald being at the Paine home a day early. But her dramatic arrival at the Paine residence to impart her "suspicion" to police is no more remarkable than Ruth Paine's greeting to detectives Rose and Stovall, "Come on in, we were expecting you. Just as soon as we heard where it happened, we figured someone would be out." Or, for that matter, Michael Paine's sudden arrival at 3:45 after apparently coming to a similar conclusion to his wife.

The search for Frazier
Linnie Mae's discussion with Adamcik was what now made Frazier a potential suspect as an accomplice. Shortly after the detectives arrived back at City Hall at 6:00pm with the Paines and Marina, they contacted Parkland Hospital and discovered that Frazier was not there. They then rang around all the clinics in Irving, finally locating him at the Irving Professional Center.

As previously shown, the police eventually took Frazier home in order to conduct a search of the property. At some point, Linnie Mae arrived, and she, Frazier and the Rev Campble, along with Frazier's Enfield and other evidence, were taken to City Hall. It was now around 9:00pm. After giving her affidavit, Linnie Mae was shown "some brown package paper", but was unable to confirm it was "identical" to the package Oswald had carried due to having only seen that package from a distance through her window.[10]

The FBI takes over the handling of Randle
On the same day that Special Agents Odum and McNeely called on Frazier, they also put Linnie Mae through her paces, recreating what she claimed she'd witnessed.

Observing the replica bag, she stated it was the same heavy grade type of paper that Oswald's sack was constructed from. Shown the original bag, she stated if it had been the same color as the replica, it could have been the bag she observed.[11] Amusingly, the FBI, used three pieces of pressed board to "bulk" up the package to Linnie Mae's specification, solemnly declaring in August, 1964, that "when the case is closed these pieces of pressed board will be destroyed".[12] I wonder if they still have them?

Neighbors saw nothing
December 1st was a busy day for Odum and McNeely. They also interviewed Mr and Mrs CP Schneider, Mrs Mary Ponder, Mr and Mrs Victor Embry, Mrs James Goodwin, Mr and Mrs James Williams, and Mr and Mrs Ed Roberts. All were neighbors of the Paines and Randles. None had seen Oswald as he trudged over from the Paine residence to the Randle house on the morning of the assassination - carrying a long, bulky package or otherwise.[13] This begs the question though, as to why Oswald would risk being seen by neighbors carrying the package which, according to police, resembled a rifle case - especially if he intended using it for assassinating Kennedy later that day. One possible answer (but by no means the only) can be found in what Harry Holmes and Gus Rose said to author Larry Sneed during interviews for the book, No More Silence.

Holmes: Oswald told Fritz that the curtain rods weren't for his room, he had brought them in for a co-worker who needed some. Although some accounts say Oswald told Fritz the bag contained his lunch, he in fact told Fritz (in Holmes' presence) that the bag contained curtain rods for a co-worker.

Rose: Frazier said he didn't think the package had contained curtain rods. He suggested that Oswald leave it in the car, but Oswald refused, saying "No, I need it here." [14] If Oswald had such a package, and did "need it here [inside the TSBD]", it might indicate it contained a rifle he planned to use later with deadly intent. It may also indicate that it was curtain rods he was bringing in for an unknown fellow employee. In that regard, Holmes and Rose may just have independently corroborated each other.

The car door conundrum
In her very first statement on what she had witnessed, Linnie Mae made no mention of which car door Oswald had placed his package. She merely stated, "I saw him put it in Wesley's car". In her FBI statement made the following day, she declared she had seen him place it "in the back seat area".

By the time the FBI reinterviewed her on Dec 1, she was able to go into more detail, saying that she had seen Oswald open "the right rear door of the car" and, presuming he was getting in, turned to go back to the sink "after" hearing the car door being shut.

It was during her March 11, 1964 testimony before the Warren Commission that she finally admitted the truth. After initially repeating her earlier claims of seeing Oswald place the package in the right back seat area, she was drawn back to it later under questioning by Senator Cooper. To Cooper, she responded, "what made me establish the door on Wesley's car, it is an old car and that door, the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that cinched it in my mind which door it was, too. But it was only briefly that I looked". [15] In other words, she did not see Oswald place the package in the right back seat area of the car. It was an assumption on her part. Other evidence presented here suggests either Oswald carried it in his lap the whole way – as had been the case previously, or he initially carried it that way but then threw it in the backseat at Frazier’s suggestion.

WILLIAM ("BILL") EDWARD RANDLE

Business in Austin

Neither Linnie Mae nor Buell Frazier were asked during testimony if Bill Randle was home on the morning of Friday, November 22, 1963. His only recorded whereabouts on that day is at the Austin Motel in Austin. And only then because of a tip to the FBI from the motel manager.

Mrs John O Thompson phoned the Austin FBI office on November 23 to inform them that Randle had arrived at about 7:00pm the previous day with a man named Berry J Caster driving a Chevy pick up. The report goes on to say, "they both claimed to be employees of the Irving Counter Top Company", and that he had a "personal acquaintanceship" with Oswald, the extent of which was not discussed.

According to Mrs Thompson, Randle said his wife worked at the same building as Oswald, and also told her of rumors that had circulated in Dallas that Kennedy would be shot when he came "on account of the Veteran's Administration Offices being moved out of Dallas".

At about 7:30pm, Randle attempted to contact Marvin Randle in Irving, but was unsuccessful, though he did get through in a later attempt, learning that his wife had been called in for questioning concerning the assassination. On receiving this news, he checked out of the motel and caught a flight back to Dallas at 11:05pm. Caster checked out at 7:00am the following morning and drove the Chevy back to Irving.[16]

This report was not followed up until January 21 when Randle was interviewed by Special Agent Warren de Brueys. Randle advised that the trip to Austin was in connection with his employment for Irving Counter Top, that the business was owned by his brother, Marvin, and it was purely a business matter that had prompted his call to his brother. He denied any knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald, had never even seen him except in newspapers after the assassination, and said he could not recall making any statement that Kennedy would be killed because of the Veteran's Offices being moved out of the city.[17] Notably absent in the report is what time he left Irving that day (it is about a 3 hour drive, so the latest he could have left to arrive at 7:00pm is about 4:00pm); what time he arrived home after his flight; and whether Berry Caster was related to Warren Caster who had been displaying rifles in the TSBD two days before the assassination.

The rifle scope
There is a Secret Service document dated December 3, 1963 pertaining to the California investigation of the rifle scope inscribed Ordnance Optic, Inc, Hollywood, California and mounted on the Mannlicher-Carcano allegedly used in the assassination. What is interesting about this document is that no company by that name was located in Hollywood. Instead, they checked out two other optics businesses listed in the phone directory - the first of which was found to now be a phonographic warehouse. The second one was Gordon Optics Supply and Optics Industries. The owner, Murray Gordon, was contacted and interviewed. Despite stating that his business was only involved in importing eye glass frames, the files were nevertheless checked for two names. The first name unsurprisingly, was Lee H Oswald - the other was Willy Randall. Neither name was found. Next, based on a tip from Lt Manuel Pena of the Robbery Division that the Retting Gun Shop dealt in telescopic sights, the owner, Martin Retting, was interviewed. Retting revealed that he was the sole importer from Japan of the sights inscribed "Ordnance Optics, Inc", as they were much used in hunting. He further advised that he had sold them mainly to Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, though he had also sold a quantity to Dave's House of Guns in Dallas. Retting however, was of the opinion that Oswald probably brought his scope with the rifle from Klein's as they usually sold them as a package. Rettings' records were also checked for the names, Oswald and Randall. [18] It seems that Rettings' advice that Klein's was the likely source of the scope was all too readily accepted as Dave's House of Guns was only checked out in regard to the Smith & Wesson pistol.

Was "Willy Randall" actually "William Randle?
The answer is almost certainly yes. Firstly, Linnie Mae is referred to as "Mrs Bill Randall" in several documents. Secondly, at least one FBI report refers to Bill Randle as a "suspect" after the tip was received from Austin. Fair enough. The question is, why, among all possible accomplices, Randle was being investigated specifically (and only) in regard to the rifle scope? But that is just one of many, many questions that remain unanswered in regard to Frazier, Linnie Mae Randle and husband, Bill.


ENDNOTES
[1] Death of a President by William Manchester, p. 355 of the paperback edition

[2] He would not repeat the slip (if that is what it was) at the Shaw trial, claiming there that he always ate in the basement.

[3] The agency was in Irving according to a Dallas researcher who did some checking on my behalf.

[4] Stovall Commission Exhibit C.

[5] Ibid

[6] Ibid

[7] Warren Commission Exhibit 2009

[8] Warren Commission testimony of John Adamcik. Adamcik gave the time of arrival at the Paine's front door as a few minutes after 3:00pm. The joint report of Rose, Stovall and Adamcik - designated Stovall Exhibit C by the Commission, gave the time as approximately 3:30pm.

[9] Stovall Commission Exhibit C.

[10] FBI report on November 23 interview with Linnie Mae Randle by James Bookhout - File # DL 89-43. It is entirely unclear in this report whether the "package paper" shown to Randle was the bag now in the archives, a replica, or just sample paper taken from the book depository building. The subject was not broached during her testimony.

[11] FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 211 p 115.

[12] Warren Commission Exhibit 2008

[13] Commission Document 7, p 98

[14] alt.assassination newsgroup post by Martin Shakleford, November 5, 2007.

[15] This problem with Linnie Mae's statements on seeing the package being placed in the car was noted in a Lancer forum post made by researcher, Ian Lloyd on October 26, 2007. Lloyd also cited the photo exhibits of the Randle home and carport as strongly indicating Linnie Mae could not have seen all that she had claimed.

[16] FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 84, p 98. Mrs Thompson was likely confused about Randle's wife working at the same place as Oswald. He had most likely told her that his wife's brother did. This misstatement seems to have led to Linnie Mae Randle's name being hand written under the typed list of TSBD employees who had their details taken as they left the building on the afternoon of the assassination. The name was subsequently crossed out.

[17] Id. at p 99

[18] Post made to the Education Forum by researcher Mark Knight, May 27, 2006 citing CE 1331. Manuel Pena had been working for the Dodd Committee investigating mail order weapons. One of the companies under scrutiny had been Klein's. Pena would later have in involvement in the RFK investigation.


CORRIGENDUM

Cite 14
The correct (and complete) quote from Sneed's book is “Somebody in the room at that point asked him what was in the paper bag that he had the next morning when he rode to work with another employee. ‘Well, that was my lunch’. That’s what he told us. ‘Your lunch? Why did you carry a lunch in a big old bag like that’?Well’, he said ‘you don’t always get a bag that just fits your lunch; you take what you can get.’ He was that quick, no mincing around, no trying to make up something. He was then asked, ‘Well, where did you carry it’? ‘I carried it in my lap.’ he said, ‘just like I always carry my lunch’ and the driver said, ‘Throw it over in the back seat’. That’s what he said about it! According to the man who drove him to work the next day he had a rather long brown paper wrapper which might have been a bag. The driver asked him, ‘What’s that?’ as Oswald threw it over the back seat. Oswald told him, ‘That’s some curtain rods.’ I’ve noticed in some of the literature that it was for his room, but he told Captain Fritz previously that it was curtain rods which he was bringing because he didn’t need them. As they were getting out of the car, he supposedly said that the curtain rods were for a fellow at work. In short, Homes was quoting Frazier - not Oswald - in reference to having brought curtain rods for a fellow worker.


Last edited by greg parker on Sat 30 Jan 2010, 8:09 am; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : format)

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frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 Empty Re: Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle

Tue 24 Apr 2018, 11:15 am
That is true, the transcriptions of Frazier on those recordings cannot be trusted to be completely accurate Barto. A lot of assumptions and guesswork I'm feeling when the transcribing was done originally by Gilbride.
I had sent the audio copies of the recordings off to an audio engineer some time back however he could do little with them at that stage. I wonder should we look at reviewing that because of advancements in audio file recovery technology. They've certainly mad huge leaps in the last couple of years in that area.
Could be worth a shot.

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Thu 18 Jun 2020, 4:30 pm
A bump on this topic because a while back Dennis Morrisette posted the HSCA interview, almost 4 hours, on youtube. I have listened to it a couple of times and although painful to the ears, most can be made out. 

I made some rough notes and these appear below with approximate times indicated. I did find that the interview seemed different from my memory of the Gilbride "transcript" that used to be archived here. I remember one revelation used to be Frazier said "framed" when it is simply "named".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GhPJBfLxy8&t=2048s
Frazier Interview Full-HSCA

14.00 Told to take the rest of the day off, maybe Shelley told him? This is the same as Oswald's story.



[ltr]14:20 Left for Irving and turned on Radio – heard JFK Was being worked on at Parkland. He must have left after headcount and before the Senkel was told by Fritz to gather everyone up who was on 6th floor that day for questioning....Sometime between 1.15 and 1.30? When was JFK pronounced dead on radio? Julia Postal heard on radio KLIF about time of Oswald's arrest. [/ltr]



14:51 Went to sisters house and Mother was there – went to hospital – Irving Professional Center –giving  step father oxygen
“Sister said, she was there” she had to go somewhere. I can give him oxygen.
Phone call – after oxygen – two detectives tried to grab him  - he ran to exit  – they said stop or shoot – frisk and shake down – Rose and Stovall – they thought it was strange he ran - took to Irving PS – took to Dallas- no mention of McCabe who initially apprehended him and took him to Irving PS



[ltr]21:10 Fritz attempt at confession – thought Frazier was disrespectful to him[/ltr]



23:10 Police trying to whitewash – lax security procedures
24:00 Found out Oswald in custody – while he was Irving PD or about time he left for Dallas with Rose and Stovall?
25:21 Did not see LHO leave building – only found out was not there at head count – Shelley said he could go home between 1 and 1.30 – but Shelley goes to city hall with other 6th floor workers – must have been before request by Fritz to Senkel. See previous comment
26:30 did not notice police leave TSBD for Tippit shooting
27.00 knew Oswald was missing when he left building
27:20 got home and it was on TV – sister knew what had happened (TSBD) – we both said it was bad thing ------8 sec pause ----- “she said”……..I went to house and mother was there. Asked where sister was and she was at hospital. She had been there a while, he went there to relieve her (LOL).
28:20 Didn’t know about Tippit at that time
29:20 Knew Oswald had been arrested
30:50 wondered if Oswald did it while driving –
31:10 Only thought of curtain rods when questioned – its been reported he had a package with him – what did it look like?
31:30 backed up into car port
32:30 cops went to my sisters house first – asked my mother  - Told them up at hospital with sister
34:30 Frazier mentioned motorcade to Oswald on way to work
39:10 did not see Belknap Seizure or ambulance- must have gone out late
41:30 was printed and photographed
52:00 Did they try to make you say something that want true? Did their questioning center around this packaging and curtain rods? They knew that he…..so they were very interested
1:00:20 Has never seen rifle
1:00:30 what time did you get to the hospital? Didn’t know. Went home shot time then to hospital. Thinks mother had news on TV and knew Tippit shot. At hospital remembers someone being arrested at Texas Theater. Did not now it was Oswald.



[ltr]1:05:00 close to hitting him[/ltr]



1:06:40 made package together? “the one that we made”
1:08:30 knew Oswald was missing, only one... Bill did the count



[ltr]1:09 : when he knew Tippit was shot and Oswald arrested did he get scared? He was scared before, but had never been in trouble before. Was when at hospital with step father he thought Oswald was involved. Did anyone call to say it was Oswald (LMR?) Repeated did not know for sure at that time. Did not know it was Oswald at the hospital.[/ltr]



1:24:40 DPD searched the home – before or after they came to hospital –can’t remember
1:26:30 Was going to need lawyer until Rose and Stovall convinced cops he was telling truth
1:27:10 LMR and minister came to Irving PS
1:29:50 Can’t remember what mother/cops said before search....took his .303 and double gauge shotgun....mother not happy
1:30:10 No one tried to call him at hospital....reference to George O'Toole...assassination tapes
3:29:30 LMR at kitchen sink "says must be late because Lee comes Lee"



[ltr]3:32:00 Conversation with Lee about battery charging – this is new[/ltr]



3:36:00 Parade close to lunch hour – he hadn’t eaten his lunch? Why not as lunch finished at 12.45!
3:39:30 one car garage?
3:40:10 Locked door? "He figured that one out!" "I guess he had"…..LOL


Apologies for the roughness of the notes.....
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Thu 18 Jun 2020, 7:44 pm
Thanks Colin.

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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 12:08 am
Colin Crow wrote:A bump on this topic because a while back Dennis Morrisette posted the HSCA interview, almost 4 hours, on youtube. I have listened to it a couple of times and although painful to the ears, most can be made out. 

I made some rough notes and these appear below with approximate times indicated. I did find that the interview seemed different from my memory of the Gilbride "transcript" that used to be archived here. I remember one revelation used to be Frazier said "framed" when it is simply "named".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GhPJBfLxy8&t=2048s
Frazier Interview Full-HSCA

14.00 Told to take the rest of the day off, maybe Shelley told him? This is the same as Oswald's story.






[ltr]14:20 Left for Irving and turned on Radio – heard JFK Was being worked on at Parkland. He must have left after headcount and before the Senkel was told by Fritz to gather everyone up who was on 6th floor that day for questioning....Sometime between 1.15 and 1.30? When was JFK pronounced dead on radio? Julia Postal heard on radio KLIF about time of Oswald's arrest. [/ltr]






14:51 Went to sisters house and Mother was there – went to hospital – Irving Professional Center –giving  step father oxygen
“Sister said, she was there” she had to go somewhere. I can give him oxygen.
Phone call – after oxygen – two detectives tried to grab him  - he ran to exit  – they said stop or shoot – frisk and shake down – Rose and Stovall – they thought it was strange he ran - took to Irving PS – took to Dallas- no mention of McCabe who initially apprehended him and took him to Irving PS






[ltr]21:10 Fritz attempt at confession – thought Frazier was disrespectful to him[/ltr]






23:10 Police trying to whitewash – lax security procedures
24:00 Found out Oswald in custody – while he was Irving PD or about time he left for Dallas with Rose and Stovall?
25:21 Did not see LHO leave building – only found out was not there at head count – Shelley said he could go home between 1 and 1.30 – but Shelley goes to city hall with other 6th floor workers – must have been before request by Fritz to Senkel. See previous comment
26:30 did not notice police leave TSBD for Tippit shooting
27.00 knew Oswald was missing when he left building
27:20 got home and it was on TV – sister knew what had happened (TSBD) – we both said it was bad thing ------8 sec pause ----- “she said”……..I went to house and mother was there. Asked where sister was and she was at hospital. She had been there a while, he went there to relieve her (LOL).
28:20 Didn’t know about Tippit at that time
29:20 Knew Oswald had been arrested
30:50 wondered if Oswald did it while driving –
31:10 Only thought of curtain rods when questioned – its been reported he had a package with him – what did it look like?
31:30 backed up into car port
32:30 cops went to my sisters house first – asked my mother  - Told them up at hospital with sister
34:30 Frazier mentioned motorcade to Oswald on way to work
39:10 did not see Belknap Seizure or ambulance- must have gone out late
41:30 was printed and photographed
52:00 Did they try to make you say something that want true? Did their questioning center around this packaging and curtain rods? They knew that he…..so they were very interested
1:00:20 Has never seen rifle
1:00:30 what time did you get to the hospital? Didn’t know. Went home shot time then to hospital. Thinks mother had news on TV and knew Tippit shot. At hospital remembers someone being arrested at Texas Theater. Did not now it was Oswald.






[ltr]1:05:00 close to hitting him[/ltr]






1:06:40 made package together? “the one that we made”
1:08:30 knew Oswald was missing, only one... Bill did the count






[ltr]1:09 : when he knew Tippit was shot and Oswald arrested did he get scared? He was scared before, but had never been in trouble before. Was when at hospital with step father he thought Oswald was involved. Did anyone call to say it was Oswald (LMR?) Repeated did not know for sure at that time. Did not know it was Oswald at the hospital.[/ltr]






1:24:40 DPD searched the home – before or after they came to hospital –can’t remember
1:26:30 Was going to need lawyer until Rose and Stovall convinced cops he was telling truth
1:27:10 LMR and minister came to Irving PS
1:29:50 Can’t remember what mother/cops said before search....took his .303 and double gauge shotgun....mother not happy
1:30:10 No one tried to call him at hospital....reference to George O'Toole...assassination tapes
3:29:30 LMR at kitchen sink "says must be late because Lee comes Lee"






[ltr]3:32:00 Conversation with Lee about battery charging – this is new[/ltr]






3:36:00 Parade close to lunch hour – he hadn’t eaten his lunch? Why not as lunch finished at 12.45!
3:39:30 one car garage?
3:40:10 Locked door? "He figured that one out!" "I guess he had"…..LOL


Apologies for the roughness of the notes.....
Colin, I said from the start that the transcript Gilbride had was worthless. As far as I can see, this makes far more sense. 

One thing - claiming that Linnie Mae was at the hospital and that it was his mother who sent the cops there is at total odds with the official story that Linnie Mae talked to Adamcik outside the Paine home and sent them to the wrong hospital.

He also says he had forgotten about the curtain rods until he was interviewed by the cops? Hmmm.

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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 9:58 am
Greg, I do not believe the curtain rod story was concocted until Buell was at the hospital. It seems that some cops visited the Randle house and spoke with the mother. Frazier had already retuned home some time previously. Likely around 1.45. The key here is the missing time that is somehow assisted by Rose and Stovall. These guys claimed to have waited near the Paine's for Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford to arrive to conduct the search. That event appears to be an hour or so later than it really happened. It was likely they arrived and spoke to Ruth and Marina between 2.30 and 2.45. Frazier was no apprehended for some hours at the Irving medical centre. Lots of time for him to prepare something.

I believe Linnie May went back home and it was the cops who asked her about a package. The paper bag as "evidence" was likely relayed in the communications between Dallas cops and the Paine household. Something like....."ask them is they saw him with a paper package that morning"..Linnie May simply complied to get her brother off the hook and then relayed that information to him at the hospital. "I told them he had a long paper package". Note that Linnie May said nothing about curtain rods to Adamcik that afternoon. The whole curtain rod package story evolved during the long Friday afternoon at the hospital.

Another strange thing is that Frazier says nothing about McCabe detaining him at the hospital and taking him to Irving Police station. His story is that it was Rose and Stovall who apprehended ended him. No police reports claim that.

I think his "successful "polygraph was simply used to as leverage against Oswald. Fritz could then say we have Frazier saying he carried the package and he was telling the truth. No matter what the real outcome was.
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 9:59 am
You all know how I feel about Wesley and his BS stories. If even half of the transcribing is near accurate then he has a lot of explaining to do. 
If someone has the audio from those interview sessions of Frazier and the HSCA investigators please send them to me. There has been remarkable advancements in the last couple of years with Audio technology. TIA.

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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:08 am
Hey Mick. The link to the YouTube recording was in my recent post. You can simply use various tools to download the audio as an mp3. Then you have a digital file to work with.
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:11 am
Colin Crow wrote:Greg, I do not believe the curtain rod story was concocted until Buell was at the hospital. It seems that some cops visited the Randle house and spoke with the mother. Frazier had already retuned home some time previously. Likely around 1.45. The key here is the missing time that is somehow assisted by Rose and Stovall. These guys claimed to have waited near the Paine's for Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford to arrive to conduct the search. That event appears to be an hour or so later than it really happened. It was likely they arrived and spoke to Ruth and Marina between 2.30 and 2.45. Frazier was no apprehended for some hours at the Irving medical centre. Lots of time for him to prepare something.

I believe Linnie May went back home and it was the cops who asked her about a package. The paper bag as "evidence" was likely relayed in the communications between Dallas cops and the Paine household. Something like....."ask them is they saw him with a paper package that morning"..Linnie May simply complied to get her brother off the hook and then relayed that information to him at the hospital. "I told them he had a long paper package". Note that Linnie May said nothing about curtain rods to Adamcik that afternoon. The whole curtain rod package story evolved during the long Friday afternoon at the hospital.

Another strange thing is that Frazier says nothing about McCabe detaining him at the hospital and taking him to Irving Police station. His story is that it was Rose and Stovall who apprehended ended him. No police reports claim that.

I think his "successful "polygraph was simply used to as leverage against Oswald. Fritz could then say we have Frazier saying he carried the package and he was telling the truth. No matter what the real outcome was.
Colin, great to have you here,

I'll reread the Frazier threads and try and somehow unravel the audio from the HSCA. Wesley claimed he told his sister about the curtain rods Thursday night. She as best I can remember claimed that as well. There are in the record 4 different versions (Official Reports) of Wesley at the hospital and having been arrested. 

I think when we throw in to the mix Bill Randle having been suspected of ordering the rifle scope, Roberts from Irving telling the Schneiders that Willie had driven Lee to work that morning and if it can be believed Linnie's disclosure about a package to Adamcik out front of the Paines it all starts to smell, at least in my opinion.

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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:12 am
Colin Crow wrote:Hey Mick. The link to the YouTube recording was in my recent post. You can simply use various tools to download the audio as an mp3. Then you have a digital file to work with.
Hey Colin,

many thanks mate. Hope you're well and life is kind especially in these weird times.

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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:27 am
What we do know is that the Frazier, Randle, Rose and Stovall "stories" stink to high heaven. There is a massive time frame shift from the cops and a time contraction by Buell. From what I have seen he should be brought in to do some explaining, even now.

He would have been under enormous pressure. He was involved in getting the accused assassin a job at the TSBD. He gave him a lift to work. He left the building shortly after, at a time just before all those who had been on the 6 th floor that day were taken to HQ for questioning. He went outside just before the parade went past. He asked Shelley if they could break early to watch the parade. Sure looks like an accomplice doesn’t he.....I bet he would have said anything to clear himself....especially just lie about a package.
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:28 am
Mick Purdy wrote:
Colin Crow wrote:Hey Mick. The link to the YouTube recording was in my recent post. You can simply use various tools to download the audio as an mp3. Then you have a digital file to work with.
Hey Colin,

many thanks mate. Hope you're well and life is kind especially in these weird times.
Thanks Mick. Certainly 2020 has been a weird time for us all but fit and well. More time on my hands now as I retired at the end of Feb.


Last edited by Colin Crow on Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:33 am
Colin Crow wrote:What we do know is that the Frazier, Randle, Rose and Stovall "stories" stink to high heaven. There is a massive time frame shift from the cops and a time contraction by Buell. From what I have seen he should be brought in to do some explaining, even now.

He would have been under enormous pressure. He was involved in getting the accused assassin a job at the TSBD. He gave him a lift to work. He left the building shortly after, at a time just before all those who had been on the 6 th floor that day were taken to HQ for questioning. He went outside just before the parade went past. He asked Shelley if they could break early to watch the parade. Sure looks like an accomplice doesn’t he.....I bet he would have said anything to clear himself....especially just lie about a package.
I believe there is ample material available in the record to impeach Frazier's many versions of events surrounding Thursday and Friday. He is alive. He should be asked questions - the right questions under Oath. Like wise for Ruth Paine.

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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:48 am
Mick Purdy wrote:
Colin Crow wrote:What we do know is that the Frazier, Randle, Rose and Stovall "stories" stink to high heaven. There is a massive time frame shift from the cops and a time contraction by Buell. From what I have seen he should be brought in to do some explaining, even now.

He would have been under enormous pressure. He was involved in getting the accused assassin a job at the TSBD. He gave him a lift to work. He left the building shortly after, at a time just before all those who had been on the 6 th floor that day were taken to HQ for questioning. He went outside just before the parade went past. He asked Shelley if they could break early to watch the parade. Sure looks like an accomplice doesn’t he.....I bet he would have said anything to clear himself....especially just lie about a package.
I believe there is ample material available in the record to impeach Frazier's many versions of events surrounding Thursday and Friday. He is alive. He should be asked questions - the right questions under Oath. Like wise for Ruth Paine.
Agreed Mick.
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:50 am
Colin Crow wrote:Greg, I do not believe the curtain rod story was concocted until Buell was at the hospital. It seems that some cops visited the Randle house and spoke with the mother. Frazier had already retuned home some time previously. Likely around 1.45. The key here is the missing time that is somehow assisted by Rose and Stovall. These guys claimed to have waited near the Paine's for Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford to arrive to conduct the search. That event appears to be an hour or so later than it really happened. It was likely they arrived and spoke to Ruth and Marina between 2.30 and 2.45. Frazier was no apprehended for some hours at the Irving medical centre. Lots of time for him to prepare something.

I believe Linnie May went back home and it was the cops who asked her about a package. The paper bag as "evidence" was likely relayed in the communications between Dallas cops and the Paine household. Something like....."ask them is they saw him with a paper package that morning"..Linnie May simply complied to get her brother off the hook and then relayed that information to him at the hospital. "I told them he had a long paper package". Note that Linnie May said nothing about curtain rods to Adamcik that afternoon. The whole curtain rod package story evolved during the long Friday afternoon at the hospital.

Another strange thing is that Frazier says nothing about McCabe detaining him at the hospital and taking him to Irving Police station. His story is that it was Rose and Stovall who apprehended ended him. No police reports claim that.

I think his "successful "polygraph was simply used to as leverage against Oswald. Fritz could then say we have Frazier saying he carried the package and he was telling the truth. No matter what the real outcome was.
The elephant in the room is that Ruth did indeed have curtain rods stored in her garage wrapped in exactly the type of cheap crinkly paper that Buell described for Oswald's alleged package.

What's more, said rods measured 3' 6" -- same as the carbine that was ordered (as opposed to the one that was found).

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From Ruth's testimony

Senator COOPER - Did you wrap these rods in the paper? Had you wrapped them?
Mrs. PAINE - Sometime previously I had.
Senator COOPER - How long before?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, possibly a year.
Senator COOPER - What?
Mrs. PAINE - Possibly a year.
Senator COOPER - As far as you know, they had never been changed?
Mrs. PAINE - Moved about, but not changed.
Senator COOPER - Can you just describe the length?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Senator COOPER - The length of the rods, at the time you wrapped them.
Mrs. PAINE - They would be 36 inches when pushed together.


Follow the bouncing ball

The rods had been stored in the garage for about a year, wrapped in paper and measured 36 inches. Ruth was deposed in March, 1964. Go back a year to March, 1963.

March, 1963... rods taken from bedroom measuring 36" when assembled, wrapped in paper and stored in the garaged where they are "moved around" from time to time.

March, 1963... "Hidell" orders carbine measuring 36" when assembled. Allegedly this weapon is eventually wrapped in June's baby blanket and stored in Ruth's garage where it is moved about from time to time. Then it is wrapped in cheap crinkly paper and taken to the TSBD where it transforms into a 40" carbine. It was magic paper.

The paper used by Ruth for the wrapping would have been from a roll of cheap crinkly light brown wrapping paper that you could buy at a five and dime.

Those curtain rods cannot be ignored in whatever scenario is put forward.

Note also Cooper's inquisitiveness about the length of said rods. Methinks Cooper was sniffing a giant rat.

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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:56 am
greg parker wrote:
Colin Crow wrote:Greg, I do not believe the curtain rod story was concocted until Buell was at the hospital. It seems that some cops visited the Randle house and spoke with the mother. Frazier had already retuned home some time previously. Likely around 1.45. The key here is the missing time that is somehow assisted by Rose and Stovall. These guys claimed to have waited near the Paine's for Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford to arrive to conduct the search. That event appears to be an hour or so later than it really happened. It was likely they arrived and spoke to Ruth and Marina between 2.30 and 2.45. Frazier was no apprehended for some hours at the Irving medical centre. Lots of time for him to prepare something.

I believe Linnie May went back home and it was the cops who asked her about a package. The paper bag as "evidence" was likely relayed in the communications between Dallas cops and the Paine household. Something like....."ask them is they saw him with a paper package that morning"..Linnie May simply complied to get her brother off the hook and then relayed that information to him at the hospital. "I told them he had a long paper package". Note that Linnie May said nothing about curtain rods to Adamcik that afternoon. The whole curtain rod package story evolved during the long Friday afternoon at the hospital.

Another strange thing is that Frazier says nothing about McCabe detaining him at the hospital and taking him to Irving Police station. His story is that it was Rose and Stovall who apprehended ended him. No police reports claim that.

I think his "successful "polygraph was simply used to as leverage against Oswald. Fritz could then say we have Frazier saying he carried the package and he was telling the truth. No matter what the real outcome was.
The elephant in the room is that Ruth did indeed have curtain rods stored in her garage wrapped in exactly the type of cheap crinkly paper that Buell described for Oswald's alleged package.

What's more, said rods measured 3' 6" -- same as the carbine that was ordered (as opposed to the one that was found).

frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 Crinkl10

From Ruth's testimony

Senator COOPER - Did you wrap these rods in the paper? Had you wrapped them?
Mrs. PAINE - Sometime previously I had.
Senator COOPER - How long before?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, possibly a year.
Senator COOPER - What?
Mrs. PAINE - Possibly a year.
Senator COOPER - As far as you know, they had never been changed?
Mrs. PAINE - Moved about, but not changed.
Senator COOPER - Can you just describe the length?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Senator COOPER - The length of the rods, at the time you wrapped them.
Mrs. PAINE - They would be 36 inches when pushed together.


Follow the bouncing ball

The rods had been stored in the garage for about a year, wrapped in paper and measured 36 inches. Ruth was deposed in March, 1964. Go back a year to March, 1963.

March, 1963... rods taken from bedroom measuring 36" when assembled, wrapped in paper and stored in the garaged where they are "moved around" from time to time.

March, 1963... "Hidell" orders carbine measuring 36" when assembled. Allegedly this weapon is eventually wrapped in June's baby blanket and stored in Ruth's garage where it is moved about from time to time. Then it is wrapped in cheap crinkly paper and taken to the TSBD where it transforms into a 40" carbine. It was magic paper.

The paper used by Ruth for the wrapping would have been from a roll of cheap crinkly light brown wrapping paper that you could buy at a five and dime.

Those curtain rods cannot be ignored in whatever scenario is put forward.
Bang on Greg.

That Wesley spoke of the curtain rods, Linnie Mae too after the fact when all the evidence suggests that Lee Oswald had no such package, it smacks of conspiracy to frame an innocent man for mine. Just my five and dimes worth.

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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 11:48 am
Greg have you seen the work of Alan Ford on the curtain rods associated with Ruth Paine?

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"Sequence of events:

1. March 15: Agent Howlett submits 2 curtain rods to Lieutenant L. C. Day for fingerprinting (to check for a match with Oswald's prints)

2. March 19: Ruth Paine testifies in Washington that 2 curtain rods have remained undisturbed in her garage since months before the assassination; she oh-so-obligingly agrees to allow the WC to inspect these 2 rods in situ when they visit her home in Irving in a week's time


3. March 23: Agent Howlett inspects 2 curtain rods in the Paine residence which have supposedly lain there undisturbed for months

3. March 24: Lieutenant L. C. Day releases back to Agent Howlett the 2 curtain rods he had received from him on March 15.

The glaring timeline anomaly leads to an inescapable conclusion:

The 2 curtain rods submitted to Lieutenant Day on March 15 were tested for Oswald's fingerprints

-------------not because they came from the Paine garage (impossible according to the WC's own timeline [March 15 preceded March 23!], and absurd on the face of it [Mr Oswald's fingerprints on curtain rods never even taken from the Paine household would be an irrelevance to the case])
-------------but because they had been found somewhere other than in the Paine garage.

The on-the-record scene in the Paine garage on March 23, in short, was a staged affair:
-------------The 2 curtain rods which Agent Howlett inspected in situ had been removed from that garage by Mr Oswald on the night of Thursday 11/22 and brought to the Depository building the next morning in a large light-brown paper bag
-------------These 2 curtain rods had been found---somewhere other than in the Paine garage---after the assassination"


It’s been a while since I looked at this one. Not sure what to make of it. But it seems the evidence numbers relate to the Paine rods.
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 11:57 am
Mick,

this is what I think... those rods were given to the Oswald's to use if needed when they found a place. Lee wrapped them in Junie's blanket, still also wrapped in the brown paper. The rods were moved around out of the way by Mike between March 63 and whatever date they were given to the Oswald's and the package was wrapped in the blanket. After that, Mike probably moved the blanket/package once or twice out of his way.

As shown on the  Washing Machine Conspiracy thread, Ruth was in Oak Cliff with Lee on Saturday the 15th looking at an apartment and phoning about rental of a washing machine. Was Oswald planning on taking apartment from the following weekend? Did it need rods and curtains? 

I think perhaps it may have been mentioned to Buell that week or the previous that he might be bringing in curtain rods one day. Friday the 22nd may well have been the day he was going to. Except that when he went to grab them, they were not where he had left them. Ruth had placed them up on high shelf (where they remained until at least the day that the WC paid a visit to the garage to look at them.

So... Lee departs without them. He could not be allowed to take them because they would then be found at the book depository and confirm he took those and not a rifle. But with no curtain rods at the TSBD or left in Buell's car (which was thoroughly searched), he can now be said to have carried anything they want of a similar length. He can also made out to be a liar by having him disclaim the curtain story (actually, he is quoted in one report as simply saying the Buell was mistaken and was thinking of a past occurrence).

The only plan that Lee knew of that day was to meet Marina and Ruth after work in Oak Cliff so Marina could check the apartment out and buy new shoes for Marina. Ruth had testified that she and Marina had planned on shoe shopping on the afternoon of Nov 22 with $10 Lee had given his wife for that purpose.

I believe Lee overheard Shelley tell his wife on the phone that there would be no more work that day and so called Ruth to  ask if they could meet him in Oak Cliff sooner as he would be leaving work shortly due to what had happened.

I think Ruth has fobbed him off with some excuse or other and that they would have to stick to the original time. I think she then suggested he go see a movie at the Texas Theatre and they would meet hi outside after that.

According to Asst DA Jim Bowie, there were a number of calls about someone suspicious going into the TT who matched the suspect from Dealey. Was Ruth one of those callers? More than possible.  This would explain why it took so long for Postal and Brewer to give statements. There was a lot to be ironed out to get the stories straight.

During testimony, Marina talks about Lee reminding her to get Junie some new shoes.

It was never Junie who was getting new shoes. It was Marina. It got changed to Junie to throw off any connecting of dots. But good ol' quaker Ruth isn't allowed to tell a lie. Guild the lily? Sure. Answer a different question to the one asked? Sure. Deflect? Sure. Dance around the facts? Sure. But lie? NEVER EVER EVER.

While we are at the TT, let's also throw in this. Fay Puckett... daughter of the Johnsons, had a photographic studio opposite the theatre. Her daughter Pat Hall, claimed from around 2006 and beyond that her mother witnessed Oswald's arrest and recognized him as a paying guest of her parents. Hall further claimed that her mother phoned the Johnsons to tell them. Of course, I believe Puckett was mistaking Oswald for Herbert Leon Lee... but let's put aside.

The Johnson's claimed to have been contacted by a railroad cop friend at the cafe they ran

Mr. JOHNSON. No. Uh--we have a friend that is a policeman, works for Cotton Belt Railroad. And he called us--called up here and told us. Of course, we had heard all the sirens and everything, you know, going, and we couldn't imagine what it was. And Nicholson called us and told us that he had heard it over the radio.
Mr. BELIN. He had heard over the radio that the President had been shot?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then, did you turn on your radio?

Neither of the Johnsons mention being contacted by their daughter.

I think Fay Puckett phoned the railway cop and passed the info about who thought the arrestee was to him. He has phoned the Johnsons and then contacted DPD to tell them.

And that is how the DPD found out about the N Beckley boarding house so quickly. Not army intel. Not Oswald. Not via a reverse phone number check.

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frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 Empty Re: Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle

Fri 19 Jun 2020, 12:01 pm
Colin Crow wrote:Greg have you seen the work of Alan Ford on the curtain rods associated with Ruth Paine?

frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 904-F9107-DE7-E-4260-963-C-A98160661-C8-D

"Sequence of events:

1. March 15: Agent Howlett submits 2 curtain rods to Lieutenant L. C. Day for fingerprinting (to check for a match with Oswald's prints)

2. March 19: Ruth Paine testifies in Washington that 2 curtain rods have remained undisturbed in her garage since months before the assassination; she oh-so-obligingly agrees to allow the WC to inspect these 2 rods in situ when they visit her home in Irving in a week's time


3. March 23: Agent Howlett inspects 2 curtain rods in the Paine residence which have supposedly lain there undisturbed for months

3. March 24: Lieutenant L. C. Day releases back to Agent Howlett the 2 curtain rods he had received from him on March 15.

The glaring timeline anomaly leads to an inescapable conclusion:

The 2 curtain rods submitted to Lieutenant Day on March 15 were tested for Oswald's fingerprints

-------------not because they came from the Paine garage (impossible according to the WC's own timeline [March 15 preceded March 23!], and absurd on the face of it [Mr Oswald's fingerprints on curtain rods never even taken from the Paine household would be an irrelevance to the case])
-------------but because they had been found somewhere other than in the Paine garage.

The on-the-record scene in the Paine garage on March 23, in short, was a staged affair:
-------------The 2 curtain rods which Agent Howlett inspected in situ had been removed from that garage by Mr Oswald on the night of Thursday 11/22 and brought to the Depository building the next morning in a large light-brown paper bag
-------------These 2 curtain rods had been found---somewhere other than in the Paine garage---after the assassination"


It’s been a while since I looked at this one. Not sure what to make of it. But it seems the evidence numbers relate to the Paine rods.
Thanks Colin. I knew about them being fingerprinted, but hadn't noticed the screwed up timeline. Interesting.

The only nitpick I have is that they had not being lying around  undisturbed for a few months, but in fact about a year - around the time of the carbine order. And they had been moved around prior to being put up on the shelving.

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-----------------------------
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frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 Empty Re: Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle

Fri 19 Jun 2020, 12:24 pm
Greg, Alan also found this exhibit.....

frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 6-FDB4-B86-5-C4-F-4480-A9-C3-69472354-F6-C4

Note that the time of release is different and that now Howlett is not listed as the releasee.

Something strange going on as Oswald's prints on rods found in the Paine garage prove nothing.


Last edited by Colin Crow on Fri 19 Jun 2020, 12:25 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo)
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 12:39 pm
Paine and Frazier have a lot to answer for. They seem to be holding on to some big secrets.

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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 12:45 pm
I believe this to be the Paine rods from National Archives.....could be wrong.

frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 94-F80091-651-A-4-EC5-8-C3-C-B9632-EB5745-C

frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 148-E9-A0-B-8540-44-CA-AA8-B-67-FD295-CC025

If they are it looks like they are about 27 inches long. Alan believes the 275 and 276 evidence numbers relate to the lengths of each half. 27.5 and 27.6 inches respectively.
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frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 Empty Re: Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle

Fri 19 Jun 2020, 1:17 pm
Colin Crow wrote:I believe this to be the Paine rods from National Archives.....could be wrong.

frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 94-F80091-651-A-4-EC5-8-C3-C-B9632-EB5745-C

frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 148-E9-A0-B-8540-44-CA-AA8-B-67-FD295-CC025

If they are it looks like they are about 27 inches long. Alan believes the 275 and 276 evidence numbers relate to the lengths of each half. 27.5 and 27.6 inches respectively.
They look like what was described by Ruth. In fact, that is pretty much how Mike described what was in the blanket he moved.

I doubt that Exhibit Numbers were allotted in such a manner. She testified that when assembled, they were about 36". She was usually pretty precise in such things. 

But the 27" theory on the other hand, does fit with the bag length a described by Buell and Linnie... maybe there was something else that goes into the assembly that adds about 8 inches?

Whatever the case, I like the way this is unfolding.

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-----------------------------
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frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 Empty Re: Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle

Fri 19 Jun 2020, 1:29 pm
From Mike's testimony

"Also, I had my vision of the pipe. It had an iron pipe about 30 inches long with a short section of pipe going off 45 degrees. No words here, it just happened that I did have this image in my mind of trying to fill up that package in the back burner of my mind."

Here is the sketch he had made the previous day showing what he thought was in the blanket after moving it a couple of times.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1138#relPageId=25&tab=page

Is the sketch closer in looks to the carbine or the curtain rods? 

If this was the carbine (it wasn't, but go along with me here) what part of the carbine was the "shovel"? 

If it was the curtain rods (it was!), what in this case, is the "shovel"? Was it a piece you needed for assembly that added the required length to get it to 36"?

_________________
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              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
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frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 Empty Re: Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle

Fri 19 Jun 2020, 1:30 pm
I think from what I have seen I am confident that Linnie May knew nothing of the curtain rod story or a package when she started talking to Adamcik. I believe it was the police who first mentioned a package to her. There was communication back and forth between Dallas and Paine's that afternoon. Linnie May did not talk to them until the cars were packed with evidence and arrangements for the children were made. It might be around 5pm. Remember that Frazier claimed the cops came for him not long after he arrived at the hospital. Total BS.....it had to be many hours before they came for him.
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frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 3 Empty Re: Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle

Fri 19 Jun 2020, 4:21 pm
I think from what I have seen I am confident that Linnie May knew nothing of the curtain rod story or a package when she started talking to Adamcik. 
Colin, she was supposedly told the curtain rod story the night before by way of explaining why Oswald was arriving a day early. If that was not the story given to her to explain the early arrival, then either she was given some other story or no story at all, most likely because Oswald was there every night, so nothing out of the ordinary for him to arrive with Buell on Thursday.


I believe it was the police who first mentioned a package to her. 
On what basis did they mention a package to her? Are you saying thy already knew about a package from Buell before Linnie spoke to them?  I can think of zero reason for for anyone  simply assuming the weapon was taken inside a paper bag.


There was communication back and forth between Dallas and Paine's that afternoon. Linnie May did not talk to them until the cars were packed with evidence and arrangements for the children were made. It might be around 5pm. Remember that Frazier claimed the cops came for him not long after he arrived at the hospital. Total BS.....it had to be many hours before they came for him.
So this is all by way of saying that it was indeed Buell who told the cops about a bag before they spoke to Linnie?



_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

https://gregrparker.com
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