The Vacant House

Is there any way to determine who owned 2511 West Fifth St. in 1963? Is it not a little odd that there was an empty house sitting right next to ground zero in Irving that was never investigated, never searched, and barely even mentioned in the official record? The only two references I know of are from (1) the 12/4/64 report of Irving Postal Inspectors Nieohwner and McCoy; and (2) the WC testimony of James Hosty: 





Mr. STERN. Can you show us from Exhibit 430 approximately where you parked your car that day if you recall? 

Mr. HOSTY. I don't recall specifically. I do recall that her station wagon was parked in the driveway. There was another car in front of the house, and it is my recollection that I parked, perhaps, here.
There is another house right next door here which was vacant, and I believe I parked in front of the vacant house right next door. 

Here's the vacant house right in the center of the photo behind the big tree:



This is just something that has bugged me for a while and was wondering if anyone knows or knows how to find anything out about the property.

Irving is a pain.
no pun intended.
No directory.
Tax info is out of date.

You can try calling Dallas county assessors office.
Hosty etc didn't give ownership info just occupancy.

Ed.Ledoux wrote:Irving is a pain.
no pun intended.
No directory.
Tax info is out of date.

You can try calling Dallas county assessors office.
Hosty etc didn't give ownership info just occupancy.

Thanks Ed, I will look into it. I’m actually moving to Austin in about a month so will have a chance in the future to drive out there and do some research. Going to try to do a Dallas trip this summer - maybe there are some physical records buried in a courthouse or library etc. that are worth checking out. 

In the video talk Vinny posted on Paine the guy said that Ruth purchased three different homes in Irving in 1964. I don’t know how true that is - some of the other stuff in the talk was definite B.S. - but it reminded me about this allegedly vacant house literally right next to Paine’s. How’d Hosty know it was vacant anyway and the occupants weren’t just on vacation or something? It just seems like another weird coincidence, and I’d really like to know who owned that property at the time.

"How’d Hosty know it was vacant anyway"

IMO he asked the neighborhood snoop.
Mrs. Roberts.

Tom there are plenty of Oswald/JFK docs to locate in Austin. Waggoner Carr missing bits.

Dallas library would be great to add to a trip.
Look at the directories, phone books and newspapers for goodies!!!!

Bump in light of new info posted at ed forum.

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/29828-new-material-uncovered-were-the-randles-and-paines-direct-next-door-neighbours/

If I have it right, at least one implication is that if the Randles had previously lived in that house, then they almost certainly knew the Paines better than indicated in testimony and Linnie lied when she said she previously lived over the road from the Paines.

Other possibilities.

Perhaps this property, like their current address, was also owned by the Randle patriarch. Perhaps Buell was actually living there after arriving in Irving earlier in the year? The residence the Randles lived in at the time of the assassination was only a 2 bedroom place.

greg_parker wrote:Bump in light of new info posted at ed forum.

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/29828-new-material-uncovered-were-the-randles-and-paines-direct-next-door-neighbours/

If I have it right, at least one implication is that if the Randles had previously lived in that house, then they almost certainly knew the Paines better than indicated in testimony and Linnie lied when she said she previously lived over the road from the Paines.

Other possibilities.

Perhaps this property, like their current address, was also owned by the Randle patriarch. Perhaps Buell was actually living there after arriving in Irving earlier in the year? The residence the Randles lived in at the time of the assassination was only a 2 bedroom place.

Let me add here, if Mrs Roberts saw Oswald getting a lift with "Willy Randle' and this hearsay got scrambled and it really was Buell,  could she have actually witnessed that from her place if it happened at the current Randle residence? 

Take all of this as just spitballing...

Interesting. Heres a ball o spit,

The 1961 Dallas city directory shows One:
Willie Randle at 3410 Millitary Parkway



Here is Alfred's obit.


It shows his brother is John (and Edward).
Fist pic showed in 1961 Dallas City directory a John, Residence 4711 Military Parkway!

Seems a possiblity they are our John (bro. of Alfred) and Willie (Linnie Mae) Randle.?

Yes we all wish we had Irving phone books from 1959-1963.
I've drooled at the info and connections to be had in them.
I imagine the Randles (Buell) had the set and stroked them while making a chuckling sound.
But until I score an ebay goldmine or irving library goez completely digital and online we aint got a completed picture.

More sputum.
Thanks to "Savez" (Find a grave)
Here is marriage of Charles C Randle
by EW CAMPBELL
The good Reverend E.W. Campbell - https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1462-the-good-reverend-e-w-campbell



and was on Shady Grove (Buell's next addy)
And old addy of Alfreds?

Great finds,Ed.

greg_parker wrote:Bump in light of new info posted at ed forum.

 Linnie lied when she said she previously lived over the road from the Paines.

There is a road, Westbrook Drive, that is perpendicular to W. 5th and runs between the two blocks that the Paine and Randle houses are on. Maybe she said they lived across the road (Westbrook Drive), over by the Paines and that was misconstrued to 'across the road' from them.

It might have gone, "We used to live by the Paines." 
Question: "Where?" 
Answer: "Across the road."

Ed.Ledoux wrote:Interesting. Heres a ball o spit,

The 1961 Dallas city directory shows One:
Willie Randle at 3410 Millitary Parkway



Here is Alfred's obit.


It shows his brother is John (and Edward).
Fist pic showed in 1961 Dallas City directory a John,  Residence 4711 Military Parkway!

Seems a possiblity they are our John (bro. of Alfred) and Willie (Linnie Mae) Randle.?

Yes we all wish we had Irving phone books from 1959-1963.
I've drooled at the info and connections to be had in  them.
I imagine the Randles (Buell) had the set and stroked them while making a chuckling sound.
But until I score an ebay goldmine or irving library goez completely digital and online we aint got a completed picture.

I went to the Texas State Library a while back, and I could be wrong on the date but I’m pretty sure they had an Irving directory from 1961. I flipped through it but was researching something else so I wasn’t really paying attention.

I live in Austin so can go back whenever - it’s just hard to find time with work etc. 

Last I checked Ancestry.com had a complete 1963 Dallas directory online, but not sure how helpful that’d be for Irving. I think they have ‘62 too but it was only half complete like most of the directories on there if I recall.

Thanks FNG,
Bart clued me in to the archivist at Irving Library.
Sent a email asking about their collection of 50s and 60s city directories and telephone directories.
We shall see.
should be cake walk for them to send Randle pages from each.
And by chance if they had criss cross directory for the Randle's BL # I'd be happy.

Thanks Vinny, and Jake.
I've hunted for directories/telephone for decades online, ebay, etc. Those phone books are worth their weight in gold it appears and asking about them gets no nuggets.
When Anyone says you can find anything you want online. Just remind them about 1959 to 1963 Irving telephone books.
Agree Jake, maybe just linguistic semantics... 'across the road' fits the bill.

Did a search for relevent directories, Irving Library catalog has 1957 (and later) telephone book.
While we wait for reply from achivist to once again find a black hole where these reference items should be.... I searched "Randle" and got something to show for it,
Most of it is copies of documents we've all seen

Ed.Ledoux wrote:Did a search for relevent directories, Irving Library catalog has 1957 (and later) telephone book.
While we wait for reply from achivist to once again find a black hole where these reference items should be.... I searched "Randle" and got something to show for it,
Most of it is copies of documents we've all seen

Hmm..I’m sure they don’t have it, but it might be worth checking if the library somehow got ahold of any missing info from the two Irving Postal Inspectors. 

The biggest thing is the missing Oswald change of address from 2515 W. Fifth to New Orleans, which was supposedly handed over to the Secret Service on the 22nd before it vanished forever, but there should be more too, including an earlier report on the Schneider interview regarding Willie Randle. Check item number 7: 

https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/dallas-texas-witnesses-police-district-attorney-and-postal-inspectors-harry-holmes/705263?item=705295

The Inspectors’ report is dated 12/4/64; but these guys reported to their bosses on the day of the assassination, and the Schneider and CoA info was “forwarded on” to the Secret Service that day. That high-level correspondence between the SS and Postal Inspection Service is missing. 

I guess it could’ve just been a phone call, but the SS definitely collected that CoA form, and they started investigating Bill Randle almost immediately, so I think it’s a safe bet there was an earlier version of the Schneider interview put on paper. 

Another thing I want to check at some point is the records of the Post Office Department at the LBJ library. The records start on 11/22/63 - but it’s restricted access, only “partially available for research”, plus some stuff is still classified. 

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/40978521

Relevant records on the JFKA should have been turned over to the ARRB, but I’m curious if anything might’ve slipped through the cracks.

All good areas to joust.
Hmm they may be partially available to a lawsuit if they do withhold JFK records.
Inform the busy loyers!

Reply is..... They have Irving 1961-64 directories!!
Asking for copies of the Randle pages.
Wish 4 luck!!
Ed

Ed.Ledoux wrote:Reply is..... They have Irving 1961-64 directories!!
Asking for copies of the Randle pages.
Wish 4 luck!!
Ed

The back sections of a lot of the old directories I’ve seen have names and phone numbers listed by address too. Like yellow pages > white pages > listings by address. The ‘63 Dallas directory on Ancestry is one of the few online directories I’ve seen that has this address section completely intact. 

So it might be worth inquiring about any listings for 2511 West Fifth St., and any other addresses of interest in Irving. 

Luck!!!

Great idea, Will do.
2511 W 5th info coming up.
Cheers!

I received a reply post haste on the Randle pages.

Bart is right the Irving Archivist ROKCS!
Here they are:

Checking that addy has been requested.
Probably receive reply tomorrow, its late in TX.

Another speedy reply!

Here is the message:
Ed,

The 1961 criss cross shows Robbie M. Sharber living at 2511 W. 5th

We don’t have a 1962 criss cross.

The 1963 criss cross shows Robert Cassel at 2511 W. 5th St.

The 1964 criss cross shows Tom Norman at 2511 W. 5th St.  

Looks like a rental house, or massive turn over of owners(unlikely).
Cheers Ed

Great stuff Ed. The 1964 one is particularly interesting, since that data would’ve been collected in Fall ‘63 - when the house was supposedly empty.

If the home was being rented out, I’d sure love to know who was managing that, where it was advertised, and who the actual property owner was.

Probably worth checking out this Norman character too, along with Cassel and Sharber. New leads!

Ed.Ledoux wrote:Another speedy reply!

Here is the message:
Ed,

The 1961 criss cross shows Robbie M. Sharber living at 2511 W. 5th

We don’t have a 1962 criss cross.

The 1963 criss cross shows Robert Cassel at 2511 W. 5th St.

The 1964 criss cross shows Tom Norman at 2511 W. 5th St.  

Looks like a rental house, or massive turn over of owners(unlikely).
Cheers  Ed

https://www.spokeo.com/Robert-Cassel/Texas/Irving

Have not had time to follow this, so apologies if it has already been covered but I was asked to pass on the following:

"Willie Randle Sr of 1436 Rowan is less than a mile from Willie Randle at 3410 Military Parkway".

I did have a quick look at the history of Military Parkway a few days ago and got the impression that much of the housing was indeed military owned. But I may have been misunderstanding...

https://unmask.com/Thomas-Norman/TX-Irving/