The Gray Jacket

So as not to derail the Hill thread where the jacket has been mentioned, I thought I'd start a separate thread for it.

We'll start with Rankin showing Marina various exhibits of Oswald'd clothing:

Mr. RANKIN. 162?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's--an old shirt.
Mr. RANKIN. Sort of a jacket?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Ok. so 162 is described here as "an old shirt" which Rankin seems to prefer calling a jacket.

When was Oswald wearing this old shirt kind of jacket?

Apparently when he arrived at the Paine residence on Thursday.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any of these clothes that your husband was wearing when he came home Thursday night, November 21, 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. On Thursday I think he wore this shirt.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that Exhibit 150?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember anything else he was wearing at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems he had that jacket, also.
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 162?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

More details about 162 can be found in the testimony of Linnie Mae Randle:

Mr. BALL. Here is another jacket which is a gray jacket, does this look anything like the jacket he had on?
Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; I remember its being gray.
Mr. BALL. Well, this one is gray but of these two the jacket I last showed you is Commission Exhibit No. 162, and this blue gray is 163, now if you had to choose between these two?
Mrs. RANDLE. I would choose the dark one.
Mr. BALL. You would choose the dark one?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Which is 163, as being more similar to the jacket he had?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; that I remember. But I, you know, didn't pay an awful lot of attention to his jacket. I remember his T-shirt and the shirt more so than I do the jacket.
Mr. BALL. The witness just stated that 163 which is the gray-blue is similar to the jacket he had on. 162, the light gray jacket was not.

Questions:

From Randle's testimony, it would appear that 162 was the light gray jacket allegedly found at the Tippit site. If so, how could Marina possibly describe it as an "old shirt"?

If Oswald had worn 162 to the Paine residence Thursday night and left the next morning wearing the blue-gray jacket (163), which was supposedly found at the TSBD about a week or two after the assassination  - how does 162 end up at the boarding house for Oswald to put on prior to his alleged rendezvous with Tippit?

Greg,

Frankie Kaiser, the same man who discovered oswald's clip board, also "discovered" the dark blue jacket on 16/12/63 I believe. It simply defies belief that the same man discovered both items, and that it took over three weeks for him to supposedly find the jacket. I have a strong feeling Oswald went to the Theatre with the dark blue jacket. I hope to explain later on why I feel that way. FWIW: Kaiser might of been some sort of an FBI snitch.

That makes perfect sense to me. I did a lot of work on Kaiser and his clip board discovery a few years back, but managed to lose it all somehow. In any case, there was ample cause to think some sort of relationship existed between Kaiser and/or Truly and SA Pinkston who seemed to be present at the TSBD at key moments without any apparent explanation as to why.

In her 22/11/63 affidavit, Linnie (X-ray vision) Mae Randle claimed that she saw Oswald wearing a light brown or tan shirt; and made no mention of Oswald wearing a jacket. As far as I know, it was in her 5/12/63 interview with the FBI when she first claimed that Oswald had a jacket. I find her explanation that she didn't pay much attention to the jacket, to be almost as bad as her ability to see through the wall of the carport.

Buell Wesley Frazier testified as follows when shown the dark gray blue jacket:

Mr. BALL - I have here Commission's 163, a gray blue jacket. Do you recognize this jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald wear this jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe I have.

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe I have because most time I noticed when Lee had it, I say he put off his shirt and just wear a T-shirt the biggest part of the time so really what shirt he wore that day I really didn't see it or didn't pay enough attention to it whether he did have a shirt on.

Mr. BALL - On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.

Mr. BALL - Did it have a zipper on it?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.

Mr. BALL - It isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir.

So here we have Frazier who is adamant that Ce163 wasn't the jacket Oswald was wearing on the morning of the assassination, claiming instead that it was a "flannel wool-looking type jacket"

And of course Earlene Roberts who testified:

Mr. BALL. I'll show you this jacket which is Commission Exhibit 162---have you ever seen this jacket before?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe I have, but I don't remember it. It seems like the one he put on was darker than that. Now, I won't be sure, because I really don't know, but is that a zipper jacket?

I have been unable to relocate the FBI report on Kaiser which I believe said he found the dark blue jacket on December 16. Could someone please confirm the date of "discovery" if possible? There was nothing on the dark blue jacket in the December 10 Gemberling report on Kaiser.

I can't find the report either. But the testimony of the various witnesses just on this one item further illustrates what a mess the case was (as though that needed further highlighting!)

The gray jacket necessitated some evidentiary hijinx.

If you're suspicious that the blue-gray jacket found in the domino room was either a plant, or a totally fabricated story, I share your suspicion.

IIRC the commission has him leaving home that morning wearing a t-shirt and the brown arrest shirt, with the blue-grey jacket over that. After the assassination, Oswald, who like everyone else there, stripped down to t-shirt while working, put his brown shirt back on before leaving, but left his blue-gray number behind. He then goes to the boarding house and puts the gray jacket on over the brown shirt. But he soon discards the gray jacket to alter his appearance between gunning down a cop and hiding in a cinema.

I don't believe a word of it. Poor old Whaley got so confused about what he needed to say that he ended up having Oz wear the entire wardrobe of West Side Story.

But then, I also harbor some doubts that Oswald ever even boarded at the N. Beckley address.

greg parker wrote:I can't find the report either. But the testimony of the various witnesses just on this one item further illustrates what a mess the case was (as though that needed further highlighting!)

The gray jacket necessitated some evidentiary hijinx.

If you're suspicious that the blue-gray jacket found in the domino room was either a plant, or a totally fabricated story, I share your suspicion.

IIRC the commission has him leaving home that morning wearing a t-shirt and the brown arrest shirt, with the blue-grey jacket over that. After the assassination, Oswald, who like everyone else there, stripped down to t-shirt while working, put his brown shirt back on before leaving, but left his blue-gray number behind. He then goes to the boarding house and puts the gray jacket on over the brown shirt. But he soon discards the gray jacket to alter his appearance between gunning down a cop and hiding in a cinema.

I don't believe a word of it. Poor old Whaley got so confused about what he needed to say that he ended up having Oz wear the entire wardrobe of West Side Story.

But then, I also harbor some doubts that Oswald ever even boarded at the N. Beckley address.

I'm gonna keep looking for that damn report until I find it. I'm thinking of giving Max Holland a call about finding the "missing" report. After the terrific job he did with "finding" the lost bullet, I'm sure he'd be able to help us out LOL! (just a bit of humour).

Anyway, I do think that Oswald went to the Theatre with the dark gray blue jacket. I think that when he first sat down he took it off, then as he got up to change seats, he left it where he first sat. Concerning Frazier and Randle, it's certainly odd that she would omit any mention of the jacket in her first day affidavit. I personally trust Frazier more than I do Randle, and if he was part of the jacket cover-up, why would he not identify Ce163 as the jacket Oswald was wearing?

At this point in time, I think that Oswald was wearing a flannel-wool looking jacket to the TSBD, and that it was then substituted by Ce163. The question is: Why did it take until December the 16th for the dark gray blue jacket to be "found"?

I've finally been able to locate the report. It was in John Armstrong's baylor collection (thanks John). The report is by FBI agent Kenneth B. Jackson, and states that the jacket was found at the TSBD at about 12/16/63.

Simply unbelievable. Not only does it take Julia Postal and Johnny Brewer until the 4th and 6th of December, respectively, to give their first affidavits to the DPD, but we have the jacket being discovered almost 4 weeks after the assassination; by the same man who allegedly discovered Oswald's clip board! Sorry, but I don't think it was ever discovered there.

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/8592/rec/10

Thanks Hasan,

I also came across this
http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/34137/rec/25

which includes an interview with Marina saying Oswald only owned two jackets - one a heavy blue jacket, and the other a light gray jacket. She also said that he owned both of these prior to going to the Soviet Union.

Someone has written a note at the bottom asking when CE 162 and CE 163 were manufactured... but, at this stage, can't find any evidence this was ever checked out.

Could the blue jacket now in evidence be described as "heavy"? Marina was definite in the distinction as shown when she described the gray one as "light".

She also said he ever had anything dry-cleaned (and no evidence to the contrary was discovered); rather, she washed both jackets herself

I agree 100% that there is a bad smell around both jackets, and it wasn't Oswald's BO.

greg parker wrote:Thanks Hasan,

I also came across this
http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/34137/rec/25

which includes an interview with Marina saying Oswald only owned two jackets - one a heavy blue jacket, and the other a light gray jacket. She also said that he owned both of these prior to going to the Soviet Union.

Someone has written a note at the bottom asking when CE 162 and CE 163 were manufactured... but, at this stage, can't find any evidence this was ever checked out.

Could the blue jacket now in evidence be described as "heavy"? Marina was definite in the distinction as shown when she described the gray one as "light".

She also said he ever had anything dry-cleaned (and no evidence to the contrary was discovered); rather, she washed both jackets herself

I agree 100% that there is a bad smell around both jackets, and it wasn't Oswald's BO.

Nice find, Greg. I notice she had advised them of the jackets on April the 1st, 1964. Are there any other reports prior to that date when she mentioned the jackets? I'll have a looksy myself, but I thought you'd know. I don't think the jacket could be described as "heavy", but I think she probably meant dark by heavy. Of course, like any other sensible person, I take whatever she had to say with a massive chunk of salt. Besides, Frazier did describe the jacket Oswald was allegedly wearing as a different type to Ce163; and I certainly don't believe Oswald owned Ce162.

Nice find, Greg. I notice she had advised them of the jackets on April the 1st, 1964. Are there any other reports prior to that date when she mentioned the jackets? I'll have a looksy myself, but I thought you'd know. I don't think the jacket could be described as "heavy", but I think she probably meant dark by heavy. Of course, like any other sensible person, I take whatever she had to say with a massive chunk of salt. Besides, Frazier did describe the jacket Oswald was allegedly wearing as a different type to Ce163; and I certainly don't believe Oswald owned Ce162.

Don't know about anything she said prior to April, '64 about the coats, but I'm sure they must have had the blue coat pegged as Oswald's well before that - and Marina would be the only person who could say for sure.

You may be right in your interpretation of "light" and "heavy". I took both as indicating type/thickness of material.

You are most definitely right in your assessment of her as a reliable witness. But obviously she was not a random liar and we need to apply some sort of even-handed way of assessing everything she says to avoid accepting/dismissing based on personal beliefs and biases. Hasten to add that I am not saying you are "guilty" of this... but I will be relying on certain of her statements in my manuscript, and I expect you guys will help by pointing out for me if I am guilty...

Greg,

I agree that she wasn’t a random liar. I think you’ll agree that her lies were by all likelihood due to her being threatened (in so many words) of being deported back to the Soviet Union, as Robert Oswald implied during his testimony.

I also know that you will use her statements how you honestly see fit. I can’t wait to read your book. Btw, I’ve been in touch with Jim Di via email. I will probably be writing an article for CTKA on the jacket issue, maybe by the middle of April.

I also know that you will use her statements how you honestly see fit. I can’t wait to read your book. Btw, I’ve been in touch with Jim Di via email. I will probably be writing an article for CTKA on the jacket issue, maybe by the middle of April.

Good to hear, Hasan. Look forward to seeing it.

Good to hear, Hasan. Look forward to seeing it.

Thanks, Greg. I hope you'll like it.

Guys,

Sorry to ask a really stupid question, but could someone please tell me how many TSBD employees there were between the day of the assassination, and the end of December 1963? I've read somewhere that it was 73, but the list of TSBD employees by R.W Westphal has only 51 names on it.

Thanks.

Hasan Yusuf wrote:Guys,

Sorry to ask a really stupid question, but could someone please tell me how many TSBD employees there were between the day of the assassination, and the end of December 1963? I've read somewhere that it was 73, but the list of TSBD employees by R.W Westphal has only 51 names on it.

Thanks.

Hasan,

Here you go:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

Any questions then give a holler

Lee

Lee David Farley wrote:

Hasan Yusuf wrote:Guys,

Sorry to ask a really stupid question, but could someone please tell me how many TSBD employees there were between the day of the assassination, and the end of December 1963? I've read somewhere that it was 73, but the list of TSBD employees by R.W Westphal has only 51 names on it.

Thanks.

Hasan,

Here you go:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

Any questions then give a holler

Lee

Thanks for the link, Lee.

Hasan.

Hasan, WCD 205 p. 209 might help round out the subject of the blue jacket. It's a December 18 FBI interview with Roy Truly, who says the blue jacket was found when "a room adjoining the shipping room...was being cleaned." The shipping room, I think, just refers to the huge room constituting the main warehouse.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docid=10672&relPageId=212

I have a memory of reading somewhere that Kaiser found it behind a radiator, on sort of a shelf under a window, in the domino room. Can't pretend to know where to find the citation; possibly it was in High Treason, but memory's a tricky affair.

There is a tag on the left breast of CE 162 in the Archives at College Park, Maryland, with the following typed on it:

"Grey man's jacket with size M collar, laundry mark 30, zipper opening, name tag created in California MAURICE HOLLMAN. On inside of jacket are the initials of police officers WEB (W.E. Barnes) and GMD (George M. Doughty). There is also a laundry tag on bottom of jacket: B9738."

With Malice gives the following on p. 279: "A blue jacket, identified by Marina as Lee's, was discovered in the first floor lunchroom of the Texas School Book Depository, nearly a month after the assassination. Indeed, the FBI lab found "several brown head hairs" on the jacket that microscopically matched hair samples taken from Oswald."

This paragraph is footnoted with these references: FBI Bulky Exhibit Form, 12-17-63, FBI RIF 124-10052-10101; FBI Memo, SAC, Dallas to Director, FBI, 12-21-63, HSCA RIF 180-10033-10214; FBI Memo, Jevons to Conrad, FBI RIF 124-10010-10459; FBI Lab Report, Director to SAC, Dallas, 12-31-63, FBI RIF 124-10011-10362

Author Dale Myers reviews the contradictory reports & testimony, just as you guys have, and concludes "It may be that the blue jacket, later found in the Depository, had been left behind on a previous occasion." (p. 281)

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=353479

Richard and Lee,

Thank you both for your contributions. So we have an FBI report claiming Roy Truly was given the jacket by an employee (who's name he couldn't recall) just three to four days after the assassination, yet we also have a report stating that the jacket was found on about December 16.

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/8592/rec/10

WTF? I've given it some thought, and I currently believe that the real jacket discovery was made as stated in Bob Barrett's report. I believe this was the flannel-wool looking jacket which Frazier claimed Oswald was wearing. When the ever so helpful Charles Givens was asked about what Oswald was wearing, he testified:

Mr. BELIN.

Do you remember what he [Oswald] was wearing?


Mr. GIVENS.

Well, I believe it was kind of a greenish looking shirt and pants was about the same color as his shirt, practically the same thing he wore all the time he worked there. He never changed clothes the whole time he worked there, and he would wear a grey looking jacket

Givens was never asked to identify Ce163 as the jacket Oswald was wearing, and although I certainly don't consider him a credible witness, I think the jacket he saw was the same one frazier saw. I should note, there is no mention in the FBI interview with Essie Mae Williams that she Oswald wearing a jacket.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=95672&relPageId=148

When Frankie Kaiser was deposed, Joe Ball never bothered to ask him when the jacket was discovered; despite his interest in exactly where it was found. Kaiser's discovery of the clipboard also has questions marks around it, and I don't believe he found a jacket. Also, Roy Truly was never asked to identify Ce163 as the jacket he was allegedly given.

I also find it interesting that the 3/7/64 report was written by Bob Barrett; the same FBI agent who was at the Texas Theatre when Oswald was arrested. I have opined that Oswald went to the Theatre wearing Ce163 based on Earlene Robert's claim that the jacket Oswald was wearing was darker than Ce162. I think it's also possible that Barrett either found or was given Ce163 at the Theatre, and then fudged the report to make it look like Truly was given the jacket at the TSBD.

What do you guys think?

P.S Despite my suspicions about Barrett, I do believe he was asked about Oswald and Hidell at the Tippit murder scene, as there is plenty of evidence to support it. If he was lying about the wallet, then we surely would have heard about it before Hosty's book was published in 1996. He also wrote in his report on Helen Markham that she noted the time was 1:04 pm when Markham left the Washeteria (which I trust), and didn't fudge it to make it look like she left closer to 1:15 pm. But maybe he wasn't in on the transcripts being altered. Sorry if I sound crazy.

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/11867/rec/15 (Page eight).

In the link posted below, there are a few quotes from Earlene Roberts where she allegedly claimed that Oswald left the rooming house with "a short white coat", a "gray zipper jacket", "a tan coat".

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CEsQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjfk.hood.edu%2FCollection%2FWhite%2520Materials%2FWarren%2520Commission-Subject%2FDescription.doc&ei=UhNnUc7xIsiQigeDt4DYCA&usg=AFQjCNFCqgvRs_VJIDtNnJoJgAvgvfB-CQ&sig2=cFxRXcsHkHoROtQ2nSR28A&bvm=bv.45107431,d.aGc


But just how credible are either of these quotes? In my opinion, the most credible description would be the one Roberts' provided in her testimony, since it was then that she was shown the light gray jacket, and said that she thought the jacket Oswald was wearing was darker.

Affidavit by Earlene Roberts dated 12/5/63, in which she claims that the jacket she saw Oswald wearing as he left the rooming house was "a dark color".

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=18049

The 12/5/63 FBI report on Linnie Mae Randle (barely legible), in which it is claimed that Randle saw Oswald wearing a "grey jacket".

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10408&relPageId=315

It sure seems that somebody, presumably Kaiser, found a jacket, presumably the blue jacket, a few days after the assassination, as described in Robert Barrett's March 7 report, WCD 735 p. 252.

Which would make the "discovery" of the blue jacket on December 18, as described in WCD 203 p. 209, a staged event- coinciding with the supposed cleaning of the domino room. And I can't fathom why such a staged event would be required.

This is interesting research. All I can say for sure (?) right now is that Oswald left his rooming house with a jacket with a zipper. That's no fun. I like things having color.

I find Barrett completely trustworthy, and a decent investigator. He had a good working relationship with Captain W.R. Westbrook, and they were beside Tippit's patrol car at approximately 1:44 PM when the notorious wallet was being examined. Barret recounted to Dale Myers in 1996:

"It hadn't been very long when Westbrook looked up and saw me and called me over. He had this wallet in his hand. Now, I don't know where he found it, but he had the wallet in his hand. I presumed they had found it on or near Tippit. Westbrook asked me, 'Do you know who Lee Harvey Oswald is?' And, 'Do you know who Alek Hidell is?' And I said , 'No, I never heard of them'."

Only a few minutes later Barrett was inside the Texas Theater, among a group of detectives searching for the suspect, questioning the <alleged> manager near the head of an aisleway leading into the main seating area. "We were telling the manager- assistant manager- Turn up the house lights!" Barrett recalled. "The assistant manager said, 'I don't know how. This is my first day on the job'."

Only a phantom, folks... nothing to worry about... enjoy the picture...

The Texas Theater had no assistant manager. Manager John A. Callahan had been in the ticket booth with Julia Postal, and he walked out onto the sidewalk and drove away in his car, simultaneously with the arrival into the Theater of a man who was almost certainly an imposter Oswald. Postal, in fact, testified that bypassed each other on their respective way in and out. And to no surprise, Callahan was never interviewed by a single investigator. He had had the closest look at the person who'd entered the Theater.

It sure is interesting research, Richard. I don't think Oswald wore the blue jacket to the TSBD on 22/11/63. Thanks for posting the above info from
Barrett. I'm planning on writing an essay on this issue, and I would greatly appreciate all the help you can provide.

It sure seems that somebody, presumably Kaiser, found a jacket, presumably the blue jacket, a few days after the assassination, as described in Robert Barrett's March 7 report, WCD 735 p. 252.

Which would make the "discovery" of the blue jacket on December 18, as described in WCD 203 p. 209, a staged event- coinciding with the supposed cleaning of the domino room. And I can't fathom why such a staged event would be required.

This is interesting research. All I can say for sure (?) right now is that Oswald left his rooming house with a jacket with a zipper. That's no fun. I like things having color.

I find Barrett completely trustworthy, and a decent investigator. He had a good working relationship with Captain W.R. Westbrook, and they were beside Tippit's patrol car at approximately 1:44 PM when the notorious wallet was being examined. Barret recounted to Dale Myers in 1996:

"It hadn't been very long when Westbrook looked up and saw me and called me over. He had this wallet in his hand. Now, I don't know where he found it, but he had the wallet in his hand. I presumed they had found it on or near Tippit. Westbrook asked me, 'Do you know who Lee Harvey Oswald is?' And, 'Do you know who Alek Hidell is?' And I said , 'No, I never heard of them'."

Only a few minutes later Barrett was inside the Texas Theater, among a group of detectives searching for the suspect, questioning the <alleged> manager near the head of an aisleway leading into the main seating area. "We were telling the manager- assistant manager- Turn up the house lights!" Barrett recalled. "The assistant manager said, 'I don't know how. This is my first day on the job'."

Only a phantom, folks... nothing to worry about... enjoy the picture...

The Texas Theater had no assistant manager. Manager John A. Callahan had been in the ticket booth with Julia Postal, and he walked out onto the sidewalk and drove away in his car, simultaneously with the arrival into the Theater of a man who was almost certainly an imposter Oswald. Postal, in fact, testified that bypassed each other on their respective way in and out. And to no surprise, Callahan was never interviewed by a single investigator. He had had the closest look at the person who'd entered the Theater.

Whoops, I don't know how that happened.