"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[beowulf]

Great catch Colin (and Hasan too for coming up with the document), its like the only two settled facts they have was that Oswald was at 6th floor window and he walked out front door, everything else is up for grabs.
Look at 2. "Walking from 6th floor window to freight elevator which was on the 6th floor, riding elevator to first floor..."
and 8. "Walking from 6th floor window to freight elevator, calling freight elevator from first floor to sixth floor, riding freight elevator to second floor, walking to lunchroom..."

The FBI used the survey to see which fiction they could make work with timing and witnesses, and that became (as Mark Twain called history), the lie agreed upon. The story that Truly and Baker told WC was designed to prevent any loose ends from showing. For example, to foreclose anyone asking "what if there was an elevator on 6th floor?" or "what if LHO called elevator up from first?", we have Truly testifying that both elevators were locked on 5th floor.

[Hasan Yusuf]

Thanks, Beowulf.

[GuestGuest]

I've looked over Truly's and Baker's testimonies and found 7 points of correspondence as regards their stories of what took place between the front lobby and freight elevators. Disregarding the lunchroom stories.

1) Truly caught up with Baker inside the front lobby  (Truly, III p. 221 Baker III p. 249)

2) While inside the front lobby (in full view of the lobby stairs), Baker asks Truly where the stairs are (221, 249). I would assume that it was implicitly understood that Baker was asking for the stairs leading to the roof, and was informed that the lobby stairs didn't lead there. Not directly.

3) Truly ran into the swinging door at the will-call counter, which was bolted shut; Baker bumped into Truly. (222, 249)

4) Truly pressed the call button for freight elevator; it did not come down (223, 254)

5) Truly & Baker looked up the elevator shaft (223, 254)

6) They saw that the elevators were stuck upstairs (240, 254)

7) Truly yelled up the shaft twice (223, 249)


Sean's theory maintains that the time Truly & Baker spent between meeting in the front lobby through waiting at the freight elevators is a fabrication. So that a non-pertinent incident like the will-call door being latched shut was added in for a touch of realism.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Great catch Colin (and Hasan too for coming up with the document), its like the only two settled facts they have was that Oswald was at 6th floor window and he walked out front door, everything else is up for grabs.
Look at 2. "Walking from 6th floor window to freight elevator which was on the 6th floor, riding elevator to first floor..."
and 8. "Walking from 6th floor window to freight elevator, calling freight elevator from first floor to sixth floor, riding freight elevator to second floor, walking to lunchroom..."

The FBI used the survey to see which fiction they could make work with timing and witnesses, and that became (as Mark Twain called history), the lie agreed upon. The story that Truly and Baker told WC was designed to prevent any loose ends from showing. For example, to foreclose anyone asking "what if there was an elevator on 6th floor?" or "what if LHO called elevator up from first?", we have Truly testifying that both elevators were locked on 5th floor.

This could be the final nail -- if indeed any was actually needed.

Let's assume that the 2nd floor story was never in any doubt whatsoever (which is what we are supposed to believe). How does that assumption work with this document?

1. Doesn't take sniper to lunch-room.
2. Doesn't take sniper to lunch-room.
3. Doesn't take sniper to lunch-room.
4. Doesn't take sniper to lunch-room (but does as noted, work for a 4th floor encounter).
5. Doesn't take sniper to lunch-room (but does as noted, work for a 4th floor encounter).
6. (Finally!) Takes sniper to lunch-room.

So why are they timing 6 scenarios ONLY ONE OF WHICH takes the sniper to the lunch-room?

Could only be for reason cited by Mr B.

And I may have to reconsider my hard-line clinging to a 4th floor encounter.

But damnit! I still want to know how the person seen by Rowland got out if it wasn't him stopped by Baker!

[GuestGuest]

Great catch Colin (and Hasan too for coming up with the document), its like the only two settled facts they have was that Oswald was at 6th floor window and he walked out front door, everything else is up for grabs.
Look at 2. "Walking from 6th floor window to freight elevator which was on the 6th floor, riding elevator to first floor..."
and 8. "Walking from 6th floor window to freight elevator, calling freight elevator from first floor to sixth floor, riding freight elevator to second floor, walking to lunchroom..."

The FBI used the survey to see which fiction they could make work with timing and witnesses, and that became (as Mark Twain called history), the lie agreed upon. The story that Truly and Baker told WC was designed to prevent any loose ends from showing. For example, to foreclose anyone asking "what if there was an elevator on 6th floor?" or "what if LHO called elevator up from first?", we have Truly testifying that both elevators were locked on 5th floor.

This could be the final nail -- if indeed any was actually needed.

Let's assume that the 2nd floor story was never in any doubt whatsoever (which is what we are supposed to believe). How does that assumption work with this document?

1. Doesn't take sniper to lunch-room.
2. Doesn't take sniper to lunch-room.
3. Doesn't take sniper to lunch-room.
4. Doesn't take sniper to lunch-room (but does as noted, work for a 4th floor encounter).
5. Doesn't take sniper to lunch-room (but does as noted, work for a 4th floor encounter).
6. (Finally!) Takes sniper to lunch-room.

So why are they timing 6 scenarios ONLY ONE OF WHICH takes the sniper to the lunch-room?

Could only be for reason cited by Mr B.

And I may have to reconsider my hard-line clinging to a 4th floor encounter.

But damnit! I still want to know how the person seen by Rowland got out if it wasn't him stopped by Baker!

Perhaps the man seen by Rowland was one of the two men in suits believed to be Sheriff's deputies or SS men, who had SS credentials, and were seen by several people on their way down following the shooting.

[Colin_Crow]

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/05/0508-001.gif


Which brings us to the most "invisible" person in the whole case. Jack Edwin Dougherty. Just look at his statement on 11/22. 


He tells us he is on the 6 th floor moments before the shooting. My examination of the movements of the elevators would indicate he took the west elevator, after Norman and Jarman are in position on the 5th, from the first floor to the 6th. This is after 12.22. Three minutes before the assumed arrival of the motorcade. He claims to go back to work early. He claimed to get stock from 6 and then go down to 5 where he heard "a noise". If we assume the story about Baker and Truly across the floor and up is true except for the lunchroom encounter, then why doesn't Dougherty hear the bell and Truly call for the elevator? Why doesn't the assassin running down from 6 bump right into Dougherty? We are then lead to believe he takes the elevator down to the 1st floor to have a weird conversation with Piper. Who he claimed confirmed a shooting from within the building has occurred. Doughery then unbelievably goes back to the 6th floor to continue work.


As Lee has found, the Eisenberg memo show that his story was full of holes and the WC knew this. He was critical for the LN senario as he is needed to bring the west elevator down after Baker and Truly go up. If he didn't the an unknown person(s) did.

The whole Doughery, Piper story is a mess for the WC.

[beowulf]

Greg,
You're underestimating the industriousness of the FBI. On the second page are 4 more... alternative universes (9 and 10 are beauts, they put Oswald on the 4th floor AND the 2nd floor).
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=57697&relPageId=130

If the gunmen had counterfeit police or Secret Service credentials, they could have take elevator down to 1st floor and gone out back way, or as Gordon suggested, they could have walked down the stairs, or simply pulled out deerstalker caps and magnifying glasses and blended in with the officers from half a dozen local, federal (and probably state) law enforcement agencies stumbling over each other in the TSBD that afternoon in search of clues.
http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/design/files/2012/07/sherlock-holmes-glass_550.jpg

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Greg,
You're underestimating the industriousness of the FBI. 

Good grief.


How many possible permutations were there?

7. Takes sniper to lunch-room.
8. Takes sniper to lunch-room.
9. Ah yes. The each way bet. Pit stops at 4 and 2.
10. And now the daily double.

I am now officially in awe of the FBI.

How come none have him walking down to 5 and getting one of the freight elevators? Weren't both supposedly stuck there? Am I missing something besides a decent nights sleep?

[GuestGuest]

Printed in the New York Times on November 26, 1963, Henry Wade included the following as he outlined his 15 assertions during a press conference on the evening of Sunday November 25 that he claimed provided an “airtight case,” and the “absolute confirmation of Oswald’s guilt.”

"Wade said, “A police officer, immediately after the assassination, ran in the building and saw this man in a corner and tried to arrest him; but the manager of the building said he was an employee and it was all right. Every other employee was located but this defendant of the company. A description and name of him went out to police to look for him.”

[GuestGuest]

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/05/0508-001.gif


Which brings us to the most "invisible" person in the whole case. Jack Edwin Dougherty. Just look at his statement on 11/22. 


He tells us he is on the 6 th floor moments before the shooting. My examination of the movements of the elevators would indicate he took the west elevator, after Norman and Jarman are in position on the 5th, from the first floor to the 6th. This is after 12.22. Three minutes before the assumed arrival of the motorcade. He claims to go back to work early. He claimed to get stock from 6 and then go down to 5 where he heard "a noise". If we assume the story about Baker and Truly across the floor and up is true except for the lunchroom encounter, then why doesn't Dougherty hear the bell and Truly call for the elevator? Why doesn't the assassin running down from 6 bump right into Dougherty? We are then lead to believe he takes the elevator down to the 1st floor to have a weird conversation with Piper. Who he claimed confirmed a shooting from within the building has occurred. Doughery then unbelievably goes back to the 6th floor to continue work.


As Lee has found, the Eisenberg memo show that his story was full of holes and the WC knew this. He was critical for the LN senario as he is needed to bring the west elevator down after Baker and Truly go up. If he didn't the an unknown person(s) did.

The whole Doughery, Piper story is a mess for the WC.

Colin,

I'll dig through my stuff and find the copy of the Eisenberg memo that wanted to pursue Jack Dougherty and his story.  Something that obviously did not happen.

Lee

[GuestGuest]

The report that Marvin Johnson submitted states the following occurred:
 
“On about the 4^th floor Officer Baker apprehended a man that was walking away from the stairway on that floor.  Officer Baker started to search the man, but the building manager stated that the man was an employee of the company and was known to him. Officer Baker released the man and continued his search of the building."

Doesn't sound like an innocuous or fleeting encounter in Johnson's report does it?

[beowulf]

Sean reports Gary Mack approached Frazier with Prayer Man pics, he doesn't recognize the guy who looks like Frazier to be himself and Gary infers (presumably Frazier said he didn't know who Prayer Man was) that PM must be Shelley. Frazier describes  him as 5'8", red hair and usually wore slacks and sport shirt. Not sure if there's a common definition for latter, I take it to mean a collared short sleeve shirt like golfers wear. 
That's interesting, if that was Shelley, then who's the guy who looks like he's in his own Quentin Tarantino movie?
https://s797.photobucket.com/user/seanmurphyroi/media/billshelley-2.jpg.html

[beowulf]

How come none [of the 10 FBI exit scenarios) have him walking down to 5 and getting one of the freight elevators? Weren't both supposedly stuck there? Am I missing something besides a decent nights sleep?

Those elevators weren't stuck until they needed them to be stuck then the movie was reshot with a scene of Truly looking up the elevator shaft to see them stuck on 5 (would that even be physically possible?). 

No wonder poor Truly couldn't keep his story straight, just a week after witnessing a chaotic scene, he watched the FBI recreate the event 10 different ways.  The WC time trial months later for Oswald coming down and Baker-- as well as Truly & Mrs. Reid-- coming up were a sham. The times (sort of) worked out because the event had been choreographed during the FBI building survey.

[Colin_Crow]

Sean reports Gary Mack approached Frazier with Prayer Man pics, he doesn't recognize the guy who looks like Frazier to be himself and Gary infers (presumably Frazier said he didn't know who Prayer Man was) that PM must be Shelley wore Frazier describes as 5'8", red hair and who usually wore slacks and sports shirt. Mot sure if there's a common definition for latter, I take it to mean a collared short sleeve shirt like golfers wear. 
That's interesting, if that was Shelley, then who's the guy who looks like he's in his own Quentin Tarantino movie?
https://s797.photobucket.com/user/seanmurphyroi/media/billshelley-2.jpg.html

I have seen that guy be mooted as Shelley before. I believe he is more likely to be a detective. There was much discussion of this on Duncan's forum. The same guy can be seen later in the TSBD in either or both photos and film. I believe Shelley is the guy on the right in Altgens 6 shading his eyes with both hands. short sleeve sport shirt and no tie. Just as with Dougherty it is strange we have no good confirmed image of Shelley.

[Colin_Crow]

How come none [of the 10 FBI exit scenarios) have him walking down to 5 and getting one of the freight elevators? Weren't both supposedly stuck there? Am I missing something besides a decent nights sleep?

Those elevators weren't stuck until they needed them to be stuck then the movie was reshot with a scene of Truly looking up the elevator shaft to see them stuck on 5 (would that even be physically possible?). 

No wonder poor Truly couldn't keep his story straight, just a week after witnessing a chaotic scene, he watched the FBI recreate the event 10 different ways.  The WC time trial months later for Oswald coming down and Baker-- as well as Truly & Mrs. Reid-- coming up were a sham. The times (sort of) worked out because the event had been choreographed during the FBI building survey.

The times (and logic) for a descending Oswald to satisfy a second floor lunchroom encounter never worked. They made stupid errors in the recreation and overestimated the Baker/Truly time. It is the main reason I had to rule Oswald as a shooter out.

[GuestGuest]

Sean reports Gary Mack approached Frazier with Prayer Man pics, he doesn't recognize the guy who looks like Frazier to be himself and Gary infers (presumably Frazier said he didn't know who Prayer Man was) that PM must be Shelley wore Frazier describes as 5'8", red hair and who usually wore slacks and sports shirt. Mot sure if there's a common definition for latter, I take it to mean a collared short sleeve shirt like golfers wear. 
That's interesting, if that was Shelley, then who's the guy who looks like he's in his own Quentin Tarantino movie?
https://s797.photobucket.com/user/seanmurphyroi/media/billshelley-2.jpg.html

Gary Mack said, "First, he wouldn’t confirm himself being on the top step because the image isn’t clear enough."

So, Frazier wouldn't ID himself as the person who looks like him and is standing on the exact spot that he himself placed his location during his Warren Commission testimony but he wants to throw Bill Shelley into the mix as being Prayer Man?


Unbelievable.

[beowulf]

Two explanations of Frazier's statement (assuming, of course, Prayer Man actually is Oswald).
1. After 5 decades, its all to easy to replace actual memories with confabulations so its possible he honestly has no memory of standing in that spot or Oswald standing next to him.
2. He's afraid of looking like a liar after all this time. For a while he may have feared prosecution for perjury, but the last time he spoke of this under oath was in 1986, the statute of limitations ran out of years ago.  He's an old man. If he does remember standing on that porch next to Oswald, he doesn't want his friends and family members he lied to over the years mad at him.  If that's the case, I get that. I just hope he videotapes a warts and all interview that's locked in a safe deposit box, not to be released until after his death.

One final point, if Prayer Man really was Shelley (and if he's not the guy from Reservoir Dogs, who knows) and Oswald was just inside the front lobby, Shelley could have been scripted to quickly move away from entrance with Lovedady (but if that's fictional, who's on film walking next to Lovelady?) so he wouldn't be in place to confirm Oswald's story of being stopped at front entrance.

[GuestGuest]

How come none [of the 10 FBI exit scenarios) have him walking down to 5 and getting one of the freight elevators? Weren't both supposedly stuck there? Am I missing something besides a decent nights sleep?

Those elevators weren't stuck until they needed them to be stuck then the movie was reshot with a scene of Truly looking up the elevator shaft to see them stuck on 5 (would that even be physically possible?). 

No wonder poor Truly couldn't keep his story straight, just a week after witnessing a chaotic scene, he watched the FBI recreate the event 10 different ways.  The WC time trial months later for Oswald coming down and Baker-- as well as Truly & Mrs. Reid-- coming up were a sham. The times (sort of) worked out because the event had been choreographed during the FBI building survey.

The times (and logic) for a descending Oswald to satisfy a second floor lunchroom encounter never worked. They made stupid errors in the recreation and overestimated the Baker/Truly time. It is the main reason I had to rule Oswald as a shooter out.

The times aren't necessary IMO. Simply comparing the relative distances the two would have had to cover and the obstacles they would have had to encounter, would rule out Oswald's making it to the lunch room in time. He had to take a circuitous route to the stairwell, take time to hide the gun, and come down 4 flights of stairs(eight actually) Baker had an unobstructed route to the back stairs and one flight of steps to the second floor. Tack on 15 seconds for him to reach the TSBD, and another 10 to fool with the elevators, and he still gets there before Oswald IMO. Probably takes Baker about 60 seconds.

[Hasan Yusuf]

Bill Shelley is supposed to be Prayer man? WTF? Looks nothing like him.

[GuestGuest]

Colin makes an astute deduction about the "invisible" Jack Dougherty at the top of this page, which I heartily agree with- "My examination of the movements of the elevators would indicate took the west elevator, after Norman and Jarman were in position on the 5th, from the 1st floor to the 6th. This is after 12:22."

Sean's interpretation of Dougherty's reaction to the shooting is another problem area I have with his theory. For he has Dougherty running immediately down the stairs.

In his testimony Dougherty finally acknowledged, after some teeth-pulling by Ball, that he "used that push button elevator on the west side" to get down to the 1st after he heard the shot (VI p. 381).

And my impression is that Dougherty was basically wedded to the west elevator, since his December 19 FBI statement (Dougherty Exhibit B) says "as soon as he arrived on the 6th floor, he went down to the 5th floor to get some stock." His testimony concurred that he used the elevator to go down to the 5th (p. 379).

I explored the major-league problems with Dougherty's post-assassination alibi in the first few pages of "The Elevator Escape Theory" a few years ago. He necessarily had to take the west elevator down while Truly & Baker were ascending the stairwell- so that his alleged conversation with Piper ("What was that, Piper?") is nonsensical, since it occurred 2 minutes after the shots. I doubt it occurred at all.

So it's very, very difficult for me to see Truly & Baker using the west elevator. Dougherty used it.

And where does that leave T & B as regards Vicki Adams' rock-solid assertion, that she saw no one while descending the stairs? Back in the lunchroom, I'm afraid.

[Colin_Crow]

Richard, I don't believe the Piper conversation occurred when we are supposed to believe it did. It was never confirmed with Piper by the WC even when Piper was recalled. In fact Piper's testimony would preclude it as he claimed not to have know who brought the elevator down. As Dougherty was observed by Truly on the way back down from the roof, I doubt seriously that Dougherty is the person bringing the west elevator down a minute or so after the shots. This was not somewhere the WC wanted to go.

[beowulf]

And where does that leave T & B as regards Vicki Adams' rock-solid assertion, that she saw no one while descending the stairs? Back in the lunchroom, I'm afraid.
Yes but if they took front stairs, they would have made to 2nd floor corridor and past the open  lunchroom  door far faster than Oswald could get down from 6th floor to 2nd floor no matter how many down routes the FBI tried (this after testing in time trials if Oswald could get down by elevator fast enough to be met at front door, nope).  The 2nd floor back stairs route was the only up route slow for it to be physically possible (if still unlikely) for Baker and Truly to be beaten to lunchroom by Oswald's fastest down route. If even that up route was too fast to meet Oswald coming down from 6th floor, the FBI would not surrender to despair, no sir.  Then and only then would they go back to Baker's first day affidavit of a 4th floor meeting.

That's why the FBI included in the building survey which Hasan dug up, time trials with Oswald getting off stairs at 4th floor and then taking front elevator down.  That down route was one Oswald could beat Baker and Truly, but then (as the FBI agents surely pointed out to the them) Baker would look like the worst cop in the world and Truly as a likely Oswald accomplice if they had let Oswald go two floors under the sniper's nest. So I would say the two men each had a good reason to make the backstairs, 2nd floor meeting time trial work. 

What route did Baker and Truly actually take? Who knows, once they ran past Oswald at the front door, it doesn't really matter.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

he [Dougherty] went down to the 5th floor to get some stock.

Richard,

I think that's a good starting point to examine his actions.

Presumably he had an order with him to fill. Presumably he filled that order with books from the 5th and 6th floors. 

Was the next step to take them to the shipping department, or was there another action to take first? Can't recall, What I am trying to see is if his actions were consistent with his claim that he had gone back to work filling orders. Are what we know of his actions and movements consistent with that claim?

[Colin_Crow]

Greg, once he completed his list he would have to return the books and paperwork to an order checker on the first floor. The normal lunch hour was noon till 12.45. This day it seems they broke for lunch about 11.50 to allow for the employees to view the motorcade, expected about 12.25.

So we are lead to believe that Dougherty decides to go up to continue work about 25 minutes before there will be an order checker to be able to complete the process. 

The first floor contained bins for various book titles but if the order required a quantity of books more than the number residing on that floor, they would have to go upstairs to retrieve. If we take JDs movements as stated it would appear he required books from the 6th floor and then took them to the 5th floor to get another title. Who knows whether he needed a trolley or the quantity of books he accumulated or whether he took them down.

It appears he was seen by Truly on the 5th floor "working" about 7 minutes after the shots.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Seems to be a few holes in his story - and I know that has always been questioned - but I wanted to see if what said matched what he did. Everything needs to be placed in correct context. 

What I'd like to see is a timeline of his actions side by side with a typical order filling regime.

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