Prayer Man

First topic message reminder :

Original Prayer Man thread at the Education Forum
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/20354-oswald-leaving-tsbd/

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G'day,
I have to say I find it oh so mildly amusing reading some of the comments, thoughts and rants associated on other forums regarding Prayer Man / Oswald on the front steps. It's sad really, watching people who have spent a lifetime married to an idea or a theory, only to witness that idea or theory shattering into a thousand pieces and not accepting the inevitable singular conclusion which is staring them in the face. To Greg Parker, Sean Murphy and all the other amazing researchers following the path of truth in this case I tips me Lid.

Mick

Although the evidence we have to work with from the various statements and reports that remain in the record and of those which have been made public is limited, there is enough to piece together a reasonably accurate picture of where Lee Oswald was inside the TSBD between the time of 11.45am and 12.30pm Friday 22nd November 1963. Thanks to some fine detective work by Shaun Murphy, Greg Parker, Stan Dane, Bart Kamp, Ed LeDoux and many more way too many to mention, we can be reasonably confident that Lee Oswald was where he had said he was during the lunch hour.
Using only the earliest reports and statements where possible to piece together his movements the following time line is highly likely in my opinion

At 11.45 - 11.50 am

William Shelley observes Lee Oswald on the first floor near the phones:


William Shelley: “I do remember seeing him when I came down to eat lunch about 10 to 12" (WCHE Vol 6 P.328)


“It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12 … on the first floor over near the telephone.”  (WCHE Vol 7. P.390)




At about 11.50am Givens observes Lee in the Domino room:


Charles Givens: “On the morning of November 22, 1963, GIVENS observed LEE reading a newspaper in the domino room where the employees eat lunch about 11:50 A.M."
(CD 5. P.329)
Givens would later change his story.




At about 12.00 Noon Eddie Piper sights Lee Oswald:


Eddie Piper: 


“At 12 o’clock … on the first floor” (WCHE, vol.6, p.383); “at 12:00 Noon, this fellow Lee says to me, ‘I’m going up to eat’"  
(WCHE. Vol 9 P.499)




Carolyn Arnold 

At about 12.15pm catches a glimpse of Lee Oswald on the first floor. Somewhere between the front entrance and the warehouse doors.

FBI Statement: 6th November 1963.
Mrs. R. E. ARNOLD, Secretary, Texas School Book Depository, advised she was in her office on the second floor of the building on November 22, 1963, and left that office between 12:00 and 12:15 PM, to go downstairs and stand in front of the building to view the Presidential Motorcade. As she was standing in front of the building, she stated she thought she caught a fleeting glimpse of LEE HARVEY OSWALD standing in the hallway between the front door and the double doors leading to the warehouse, located on the first floor. She could not be sure that this was OSWALD, but said she felt it was and believed the time to be a few minutes before 12:15 PM.
She stated thereafter she viewed the Presidential Motorcade and heard the shots that were fired at the President; however, she could furnish no information of value as to the individual firing the shots or any other information concerning OSWALD, whom she stated she did not know and had merely seen him working in the building.
11/26/1963 at Dallas, Texas 
File # DL 89–43 
by Special Agent Richard E. Harrison


In a later statement Arnold would change her story.


Jarman and Norman:


At about 12.25pm we have Jarman and Norman passing the Domino room after being out front. They entered the building via the rear entrance. Oswald claimed to authorities he observed the two men as they came in. He could not possibly have recounted this episode without actually having been in the Domino room at that time.
Oswald’s claim was corroborated by the accounts of the two employees who matched the descriptions he had given to authorities: 
James Jarman was known as ‘Junior’, and Harold Norman was indeed short . Both men had been standing outside the TSBD, waiting to see the president. When they heard that the motorcade had reached Main Street, they decided to go back into the building to obtain a better view. Jarman stated that he was standing outside “until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25”. Police logs report that the motorcade was crossing Live Oak Street, about one minute from Main Street, at 12:22 (Commission Exhibit 705, p.72 [WCHE, vol.17, p.461]), which indicates that Jarman and Norman entered the TSBD no earlier than 12:23.


Because of the crowd standing on the front steps of the TSBD, Jarman and Norman used one of the building’s rear entrances. Their most direct route took them right past the domino room, which was in the north–eastern corner of the first floor, with windows on both the northern and eastern sides. Jarman and Norman would have entered the building close to the door of the domino room.
Oswald’s claim was very specific: that the two particular employees were in the vicinity of the domino room at a time when Oswald claimed to be there.
Oswald could not have known of their presence unless he too was in or near the domino room at the exact time when Jarman and Norman entered the building. 



(Jarman: WCHE, vol.3, P.201–202; Norman: WCHE, vol.3,P.189-190)



12.32-12.40pm
Ochus Campbell:


Oswald was observed by Ochus Campbell and a News Reporter along with Roy Truly on the first floor shortly after the shooting.


Newspaper account.


The New York Herald Tribune 11/23/63:
Shortly after the shooting we raced back into the building. We had been outside watching the parade. We saw him (Oswald) in a small storage room on the ground floor. Then we noticed he was gone.” Mr Campbell added: “Of course he and the others were on their lunch hour but he did not have permission to leave the building and we haven’t seen him since.”

Marion Baker:

The Dallas Morning News 11/23/63 reported:


“In a storage room on the first floor, the officer, gun drawn, spotted Oswald. ‘Does this man work here?’, the officer reportedly asked Truly. 

Perfect Mick.

One could say Mrs. Reid saw Lee after he got a coke for his lunch before going down to the domino room... 12:16

One could add Sarah Stanton seeing Lee, holding a coke, on her way out near the front stairway...12:17

One could add Marion Baker whom encountered Lee on the first floor near the lobby entrance when he asked where the elevator was ... 12:32

...anyone else we've forgotten?

Cheers, Ed

No Ed,

Think that's it!

That's enough!



Most of the above is taken from statements of the TSBD employees by police or the FBI inside the first week after the assassination. You know, before they'd had a chance to cobble together their story in all its Glory.

Had Lee Been cared for and allowed to live a good defense Lawyer would've torn their official version of events to shreds. I think Wade and Fritz would've been acutely aware of that fact.

Ed,


One could say Mrs. Reid saw Lee after he got a coke for his lunch before going down to the domino room... 12:16

One could add Sarah Stanton seeing Lee, holding a coke, on her way out near the front stairway...12:17


any references/sources for these mate or just a bit of well considered speculation.

Reference:
Reid from her testimony, (and Geneva Hine's), she cant be entering and exiting twice... common sense, logical deduction.



Oswald not using it as support for his alibi.

Stanton relative's interview by Brian Doyle.

Cheers, Ed

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Jimmy-Darnell-Longtime-NBC-5-Photojournalist-Dies-at-82-449507323.html

Ed. Ledoux wrote:Reference:
Reid from her testimony, (and Geneva Hine's), she cant be entering and exiting twice... common sense, logical deduction.



Oswald not using it as support for his alibi.

Stanton relative's interview by Brian Doyle.

Cheers, Ed

Good on ya Ed,

cheers mate.

Credit Stan Dane:

1.     Police Officer Marrion Baker's First Affidavit, 11.22.1963
 
As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to that man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor.  The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5' 9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.
 
2.     FBI Report by Bookhout & Hosty, 11.22.1963 (dictated 11.23.1963) 
 
Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building.
 
3.     London Free Press, 11.22.1963
 
As the presidential limousine sped to the hospital, the police dragnet went into action. Hicks said just about that time, Oswald apparently came out of the front door of the red-bricked warehouse. A policeman asked him where he was going. He said he wanted to see what the excitement was all about.  
 
4.     Washington Post, 11.23.1963
 
"He apparently got out of the building during the time we were surrounding it," Curry said. As an officer rushed into the building Oswald rushed out. The policeman permitted him to pass after the building manager told the policeman that Oswald was an employee.  "He apparently lost himself in the crowd then," Curry added.
 
5.     The Dallas Morning News, 11.23.1963
 
He said Truly and an officer ran into the building. In a storage room on the first floor, the officer, gun drawn, spotted Oswald. "Does this man work here?" the officer reportedly asked Truly.
 
6.     New York Herald Tribune, 11.23.1963
 
Mr. Campbell said, "Shortly after the shooting we raced back into the building. We had been outside watching the parade. We saw him (Oswald) in a small storage room on the ground floor. Then we noticed he was gone. 
 
7.     Report on Officer’s Duties by Marvin Johnson, (date unknown)
 
Officer Baker and the building manager then went to a stairway and started up the stairs to search the building. On about the 4th floor Officer Baker apprehended a man that was walking away from the stairway on that floor. Officer Baker started to search the man, but the building manager stated that the man was an employee of the company and was known to him. Officer Baker released the man and continued his search of the building. Officer Baker later identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man seen on the 4th floor of the Texas Book Depository. 
 
8.     FBI Report by Williams-Pinkston, 11.22.1963 (dictated 11.22.1963).
 
He then noticed a Dallas City Police officer wearing a motorcycle helmet and boots running toward the entrance of the depository building and he accompanied the officer into the front of the building. They saw no one there and he accompanied the officer immediately up the stairs to the second floor of the building, where the officer noticed a door and stepped through the door, gun in hand, and observed OSWALD in a snack bar there, apparently alone. This snack bar has no windows or doors facing the outside of the building, but is located almost in the center of the building. The officer pointed to OSWALD and asked if OSWALD was an employee of the company and he, TRULY, assured the officer that OSWALD was an employee. He and the officer then proceeded onto the roof of the building....
 
9.     Roy Truly Affidavit, 11.23.1963 
 
I saw an officer break through the crowd and go into our building. I realized he didn't know anything about the building, so I ran in with him. The officer and I went through the shipping department to the freight elevator.  We then started up the stairway. We hit the second floor landing, the officer stuck his head into the lunch room area where there are coke and candy machines. Lee Oswald was in there. The officer had his gun on Oswald and asked me if he was an employee. I answered yes. We then went up the stairs to the 5th floor where we found the elevator open.  
 
10.  FBI Teletype from Dallas to Washington, 11.23.1963
 
Truly was on sidewalk in front of his place of employment with practically all other employees from building when Kennedy was shot. He immediately accompanied a police officer into the building and up the stairs to the second floor, where they observed Oswald alone in the company snack bar. Snack bar in center of building, has no windows and was unusual place for anyone to be at that time. after search of building completed, Oswald could not be located.
 
11.  New York Times, 11.24.1963
 
The first officer to reach the six-story building, Lieut. Curry said, found Oswald among other persons in a lunchroom. He said the building manager identified Oswald as an employee of the book-distribution concern that used the building. Oswald was not questioned then.
When the main force of investigating officers reached the building, Oswald had left.
 
12.  Warren Commission Testimony of Harry D. Holmes, 4.2.1964.
 
Mr. Holmes: …he talked about this commotion and went out to see what it was about.
…
Mr. Belin: By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
Mr. Holmes: He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. Belin: He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. Holmes: Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. Belin: Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. Holmes: First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.
 
13.  Will Fritz Handwritten notes (Transcription of Contemporaneous Interrogation Notes of Bookhout)
 
claims 2nd floor Coke when
off came in
to 1st floor had lunch
out with Bill Shelley in
front
lft wk opinion nothing be
done that day etc.

Who's the male in the dark suit at the bottom of the stairs, left hand side who turns around sharply as Baker runs in the general direction of the TSBD?

A or B?

B, Ed

I would safely bet a dollar to doughnuts its LRV.

https://goo.gl/images/ET1jY1



http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/lloyd-raymond-viles/

Cheers, Ed

He was across the street from Depository with Kounas and Parker...

So that means he made it to the steps from across Elm.

Yes?
Ed

I would say that is correct Ed,

Looking at the Darnell as a movie clip in slo-mo over and over it appears at least to my eye that this man seems to gesture to Marion Baker. Of course I could be wrong on that. He turns sharply toward the vicinity of Baker and appears to make a hand/arm movement toward him. I'm not suggesting there's anything sinister in that. It's interesting. Is Truly down with Campbell at the knoll at this point in time that you're aware?

Truly is to the left of figure A. in the above image.

Maybe Viles is motioning to Truly?

Cheers,
Ed

So Ed,

have I got this right, going on what we have in the way of newspaper clips, the Darnell frames and the various reports. The movement of various people at about the time of of Bakers run in the Darnell clip would be as follows. No?

PM is in the same frames as Baker, and Truly. At no time do we see Truly join up with Baker to run into the building. PM is visible on the steps until the camera pans back toward Elm. Is Campbell assumed to be down by the railroad at this point or already on the way back, visible in Darnell??? If Baker did race in ( and I realise there are some who doubt that he did) there is no way he (Baker) encounters Oswald at the storage room out back on the first as reported in the Dallas Morning news. The two stories carried that morning 11/23/63 have their source as Mr Campbell. 

In the New York Herald Tribune story Campbell only refers to "WE" when mentioning racing back into the building.

Mr. Campbell said, “Shortly after the shooting we raced back into the building. We had been outside watching the parade. We saw him [Oswald] in a small storage room on the ground floor.”
(New York Herald Tribune, 23 November 1963)

In the Dallas Morning news however he claims that Truly and an officer ran into the building and encountered Oswald near a storage room on the first floor

Campbell said he ran toward a grassy knoll west of the building where he thought the sniper had hidden. He said Truly and an officer ran into the building.
In a storage room on the first floor, the officer, gun drawn, spotted Oswald. “Does this man work here?” the officer reportedly asked Truly.
(Dallas Morning News, 23 November 1963)

Sounds to me very much like Truly has reported this to Campbell. Campbell merely relaying to a reporter what Truly had told him.

So Campbell and others possibly Reid went in after Pm has moved inside, probably to where the storage area is?
What say you

Mick does the story sound odd.
Does Ochus run to the knoll while watching a police man and your buildings superintendent run into it?
I hope not for that would be ridiculous, right.
So does Ochus run to the knoll then on his way back spots the officer accompanied by Truly enter the building which makes more sense logically.

Ochus Campbell was at the corner of Elm and Houston.
We have reason to believe Ochus Campbell was standing with Reid, etc. on the North West corner.
I do not know of his existence in Darnell.

We do not have an image or photo of Ochus in 63.
Linda Z has a Ochus possibility from another photo of OC. It is the man speaking to Baker and Truly right after the encounter.
Ochus was not up on second floor to encounter Lee but this would show all involved were filmed at this time on the first floor.
If that is Ochus in the Alyea film.

Cheers, Ed

Hmmm
... if the fedora wearer in Darnell is really Ochus....
Speculation of course.
Ochus watches Baker run past him, to the corner or DalTex, and Ochus goes down to knoll ...then spots Truly/Baker enter as he makes his way back inside.
Anyone with other options for Ochus and Truly?
Cheers,
Ed

The story is completely odd IMO, it was passed onto Campbell by Truly after the fact. 

Baker cannot have spotted Oswald on the 2nd floor or the first floor near a storage room for that matter, not at least at the time that Baker is alleged to have observed him as he ran inside. Oswald was on the front steps at the time he was in the vicinity.

Ed. Ledoux wrote:Mick does the story sound odd.
Does Ochus run to the knoll while watching a police man and your buildings superintendent run into it?
I hope not for that would be ridiculous, right.
So does Ochus run to the knoll then on his way back spots the officer accompanied by Truly enter the building which makes more sense logically.

Ochus Campbell was at the corner of Elm and Houston.
We have reason to believe Ochus Campbell was standing with Reid, etc. on the North West corner.
I do not know of his existence in Darnell.

We do not have an image or photo of Ochus in 63.
Linda Z has a Ochus possibility from another photo of OC. It is the man speaking to Baker and Truly right after the encounter.
Ochus was not up on second floor to encounter Lee but this would show all involved were filmed at this time on the first floor.
If that is Ochus in the Alyea film.

Cheers, Ed

Ed, isn't this from the re-enactment? 

I don't believe Baker and Truly ran in. I don;t believe Baker saw Oswald on ANY floor, gun drawn, gun holstered or gun hidden in down his pantaloons. 

The line attributed to Truly to Baker in both first and second floor versions "He's okay officer, he works here." is ridiculous on either floor because bailing Oswald up on either floor is ridiculous. But like other BS parts of the story, it has its roots in truth.

The line by Truly WAS said by Truly... just not to Baker... it was said to Kaminski because we have a document spelling out that that Truly was confirming the employment status for Kaminski of those about to leave.

Baker was in the Dal-Tex bailing up an employee on the 3rd or 4th floor.

greg parker wrote:I don't believe Baker and Truly ran in. I don;t believe Baker saw Oswald on ANY floor, gun drawn, gun holstered or gun hidden in down his pantaloons. 

The line attributed to Truly to Baker in both first and second floor versions "He's okay officer, he works here." is ridiculous on either floor because bailing Oswald up on either floor is ridiculous. But like other BS parts of the story, it has its roots in truth.

The line by Truly WAS said by Truly... just not to Baker... it was said to Kaminski because we have a document spelling out that that Truly was confirming the employment status for Kaminski of those about to leave.

Baker was in the Dal-Tex bailing up an employee on the 3rd or 4th floor.

My pet theory is that Baker ran to Dal-Tex. I got the idea largely from Greg, as well as a Canadian with antlers. I made this video to sketch it out.

Well done video,Stan. Enjoyed it.

Nice video Stan!

greg parker wrote:

Ed. Ledoux wrote:Mick does the story sound odd.
Does Ochus run to the knoll while watching a police man and your buildings superintendent run into it?
I hope not for that would be ridiculous, right.
So does Ochus run to the knoll then on his way back spots the officer accompanied by Truly enter the building which makes more sense logically.

Ochus Campbell was at the corner of Elm and Houston.
We have reason to believe Ochus Campbell was standing with Reid, etc. on the North West corner.
I do not know of his existence in Darnell.

We do not have an image or photo of Ochus in 63.
Linda Z has a Ochus possibility from another photo of OC. It is the man speaking to Baker and Truly right after the encounter.
Ochus was not up on second floor to encounter Lee but this would show all involved were filmed at this time on the first floor.
If that is Ochus in the Alyea film.

Cheers, Ed

Ed, isn't this from the re-enactment? 

I don't believe Baker and Truly ran in. I don;t believe Baker saw Oswald on ANY floor, gun drawn, gun holstered or gun hidden in down his pantaloons. 

The line attributed to Truly to Baker in both first and second floor versions "He's okay officer, he works here." is ridiculous on either floor because bailing Oswald up on either floor is ridiculous. But like other BS parts of the story, it has its roots in truth.

The line by Truly WAS said by Truly... just not to Baker... it was said to Kaminski because we have a document spelling out that that Truly was confirming the employment status for Kaminski of those about to leave.

Baker was in the Dal-Tex bailing up an employee on the 3rd or 4th floor.

I think it's important to nail this down. I don't know the source for this still being from Alyea on 1122.63, bot what follows is the Alyea film. What was shot downstairs in no way resembles this image. The commentator from 6319.03.2019 even mentions how bad this part of the film is.

If I am wrong and it is from Alyea, I'd concede to being wrong about Baker's movements. But looking at that still and looking at Alyea's film, I'm even more convinced that those relaxed looking and well lit gentlemen were gathered for the 64 reenactment.