Prayer Man

First topic message reminder :

Original Prayer Man thread at the Education Forum
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/20354-oswald-leaving-tsbd/

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G'day,
I have to say I find it oh so mildly amusing reading some of the comments, thoughts and rants associated on other forums regarding Prayer Man / Oswald on the front steps. It's sad really, watching people who have spent a lifetime married to an idea or a theory, only to witness that idea or theory shattering into a thousand pieces and not accepting the inevitable singular conclusion which is staring them in the face. To Greg Parker, Sean Murphy and all the other amazing researchers following the path of truth in this case I tips me Lid.

Mick

Cool thx Bart.

Nor Molina,
Hairline is wrong, doesnt match Joe.

12:50?
... doesn't a Beckley bus stop at the corner at 12:50?
If timing is correct this may be the person seen later than Oswald at these locations.

Can not see clothing in the clip.
So hard to tell how figure is dressed

Cheers,
Ed

In Ed's gif:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NDdXswseyL8/WF3OtNc6QTI/AAAAAAAAAXM/3I4X9flGTlEuF6DUClnb4pX_RY0QSuifwCLcB/s1600/Hughes%2Bdoorway%2B2.gif

After watching it enlarged and repeatedly of course, it's pretty clear that there is a sound (someone calling something out or some other type of sound) that causes people to turn their heads. Two young men on the steps to the left of the center rail; the old woman on the upper steps to the right of the rail; the adult male down on the sidewalk visible just over the left shoulder of the cop who moves left in the foreground; the cop who moves left in the foreground also turns his head at that moment to say something to his companion. Then there is the figure of interest. From what I can get out of apparent head movement, he (it looks like a he to me) appears to scan the sidewalk/street area just prior to the cop in the foreground moving left. Then as the various heads listed above are moving more or less toward his position (except for cop talking to other cop) this figure makes a snap move away from where he's standing and that is just before the GIF ends.

At first I thought the figure saw the cops when he scanned his head toward them, the one cop makes his remark to the other almost as though recognizing the figure of interest, the figure sees that and bolts as a result of seeing himself recognized, but I know that is placing a narrative on what can just as easily be utterly unrelated events. So then I noticed the people responding to something, and considered the possibility that it was all related to them hearing a sound of some kind. If not a voice then maybe a backfire and everyone is jumpy as hell.

As for it being LHO, the hair looks really dark in contrast with the surrounding light levels. There is bleeding of white from the stone facing on the building behind him that makes the top of his head look flat. There is also bleeding of white into the hair from his white face and ear. This makes it very difficult. Anything possible.

Consider this post thinking out loud as opposed to reaching conclusions. I've been adding to and changing my initial impressions as the post and my impressions have evolved.

Just noticed another sudden movement in the giff. It's to the camera right of the figure of interest. It really is just a gray smudge that simply disappears. Most probably a person next to the wall who moves to the right and is then obscured behind another figure in white who is closer to the camera. This person's movement is really sudden.

Here's the place I'm referring to:

Gotta say though, at least from this angle it seems both the figure of interest and the smudged figure scatter when the two cops walk into position. Maybe they're not cops. One is black so Dallas, '63, you know.

Ok, so I was zoomed in so close that I did not see that the guy in the white shirt lifts his arm and obscures the view of the person that appears as a smudge against the wall. Nevertheless that person does disappear, plus the guy's pointing also seems to be a reaction to whatever it is that everyone else is to reacting to. It may be that the guy in the white shirt's shoulder does obscure the smudge by the wall; and the the edge of the smudge is barely reappears at the edge of his shoulder at the precise end of the gif. 

My bottom line is that something caught the attention of a number of people at that moment. It's actual significance, if any, remains to be figured out.

Good eyes,
I see the Gray Smudge Man and caught a good frame with him.


Is he wearing sunglasses??

Also there is a Euins' "suspect candidate" with bald spot on his head, moving East along in front of the steps toward GSM.
Note the original subject seems to move up a step when Junior or Norman(?) is let inside with the cop.

Jake the black guy who moves in the way is a porter, cabbie or such. Guy in white shirt definitely motions towards those on the steps near our subject and GSM.

Overall it looks like someone (subject) is moving up steps to re-enter building or get a better view inside lobby/vestibule.



also when bald guy moves left to right you can just spot another head with similar features to our subject and he also moves forward at the same time as the others on the steps.



Thanks Jake, keep looking, there are more things to find in these films!
Cheers, Ed

Nice Ed. Thanks. I'll keep looking.

Great last frame Bart!!
Profile of GSM shows him wearing glasses/sunglasses
That should be enough to ID him if necessary in other images.

Thanks Jeff for that diagram from the 'hair club' for suspects!
I am getting a Ruby type hairline when viewing our subject, not that it is Jack, but has similar dark straight sides with a over hang in the front.
cheers, Ed

What about a hard hat on GSM?

Seeing grey hair and glasses

Count Dracula sinks it,

definitely a grey receding haired gentleman wearing glasses.

Thanks Jeff, the color really showed the forehead and thanks to Jake for suggesting the possibility of a silver hardhat.

Awesome work guys.
Ed

I dont know what to think about the Jack pix.... it could match, it actually does, but only if subjects head is just right so no bald patch on top is visible.

Carry on!!
Cheers, Ed

I don't think Ruby is excluded. As mentioned earlier, he's looking around and then makes a snap move away from where he's standing by the wall going up the steps. That is a hyper demeanor, which to my impressions is consistent with Ruby. The others in the gif seem to be waiting and milling, but he's hyper, like Ruby. Not proved and probably never will be, but worth considering.

"Its All About His Alibi"



Cheers, Ed

Great graphic, Ed. Needs to be shared far and wide on Facebook. Puts it all into perspective.

More Prayer Man bashing at the EF. This time by Lance.

.  Numerous TSBD employees were on the front steps at the time of the assassination or in the immediate vicinity.  Not everyone recalled everyone else, but their recollections were quite good and paint a solid picture.  Not one person recalled Oswald standing in full view where Prayer Person is standing.  Does it seem plausible that not one person said “Gee, I seem to recall the guy you folks think is the assassin standing right there on the steps with us.  Maybe you should look into that, huh?”  But wait, there’s more …
2.  Of all the photos and films taken that day – or that might have been taken that day – Prayer Person appears in precisely one.  It is pure happenstance that there aren’t 15 photos in which Prayer Person is clearly identifiable.  And in that one photo Prayer Person conveniently appears as such an amorphous blob in the deep shadows that debate continues as to whether said blob is a man or a woman.  Prayer Person could be literally anyone – but, voila, it’s Oswald!  But wait, there’s more …
3.  What conceivable assassination conspiracy would have allowed the patsy who was supposed to be on the sixth floor shooting the President to be standing in full view on the front steps?
Nevertheless, to Prayer Person advocates, items 1-3 are no hindrance at all (precisely because Conspiracy Logic is essentially anti-logic).  But the notion of Oswald inserting Jarman and Norman into his Domino Room Alibi?  Oh, please, that’s completely off the scale of plausibility!  The only plausible explanation - put it in stone - is that Oswald was eating lunch in the domino room.
Of all the aspects of conspiracy theorizing that I regard as laughable, the notion that the TSBD was teeming with conspirators and accessories from Roy Truly to Eddie Piper and everyone in between, while innocent young Oswald was placidly eating a cheese sandwich in the domino room, is one I regard as so self-evidently absurd that I can’t believe intelligent people are even discussing it.  From my experience as a lawyer, this is the sort of explanation people resort to when they are truly (or maybe Truly) desperate.


Or perhaps this was just some citizen seeking a bit of shade who had no connection with the TSBD at all and meant nothing to any of them.  I forget who it was now, but one of the employees allowed an older man who was having some sort of difficulty to go into the building to get a drink or use the restroom.  That would be my educated guess - that this individual was not mentioned because he or she was of no significance to anyone, which seems far more plausible than the sinister speculation.

Do I know Oswald wasn't outside watching the P. parade to a level of ontological certainty?  Of course not.  I can't know to a level of ontological certainty that he wasn't having his way with a nubile young secretary in the basement or eating a banana on the roof either.  But, yeah, I think I can objectively claim that the conclusion Oswald was upstairs shooting the President is approximately 500,000 times more likely than the conclusion he was outside watching the P. parade.

Numerous TSBD employees were on the front steps at the time of the assassination or in the immediate vicinity.  Not everyone recalled everyone else, but their recollections were quite good and paint a solid picture.  Not one person recalled Oswald standing in full view where Prayer Person is standing.
NOT ONE PERSON RECALLED MOLINA WHOM STOOD IN THE GROUP SINCE 12:15!
NOT ONE PERSON NAMED ANY OF THE COLORED MEN ON THE STEPS, ROY LEWIS ETC.
SO SAYING A PERSON WHOM JUST STEPPED OUT ABOUT THE TIME THE CHARISMATIC PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA JOHN FITGERALD KENNEDY AND ADMIRED JACKIE BOUVIER KENNEDY, VICE PRESIDENT AND TEXAN LYNDON BAINES JOHNSON AND HIS VERY POPULAR WIFE LADY BIRD ALONG WITH TEXAS' JOHN CONNELLY AND WIFE NELLIE WERE ASSURED NOT TO NOTICE THE LEAST FAMOUS PERSON IN THE WORLD-AT LEAST TILL 3PM-ONE NEWLY HIRED WAREHOUSE WORKER NOT PERSONALLY KNOWN TO BUT A FEW, A SCRAWNY LEE OSWALD. I DOUBT HIGHLY THEY WOULD.
  Does it seem plausible that not one person said “Gee, I seem to recall the guy you folks think is the assassin standing right there on the steps with us.  Maybe you should look into that, huh?”  But wait, there’s more … 
SURE, THEN THEY WOULD BE RIDICULED AND SAID THEY WERE MISTAKEN AND OR THAT WAS AFTERWARDS OR THEY NEED PSYCHOLOGICAL EXAMINATION OR SO MANY THINGS LIKE PERHAPS THEY WERE HIS LOOK OUT OR EVEN ACCOMPLICE.
BUT DONT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT ASK BUELL WESLEY FRAIZER.
2.  Of all the photos and films taken that day – or that might have been taken that day – Prayer Person appears in precisely one.
WRONG HE IS CLEARLY SEEN IN TWO FILMS WIEGMAN AND DARNELL AND IN TINA TOWNERS FILM THOUGH ONLY FAINT GLIMPSES CAN BE MADE OUT
It is pure happenstance that there aren’t 15 photos in which Prayer Person is clearly identifiable.
WE HAVE MULTIPLE FRAMES FROM SEVERAL CAMERAS SO YOUR PREMISE IS FAULTY
And in that one photo Prayer Person conveniently appears as such an amorphous blob in the deep shadows that debate continues as to whether said blob is a man or a woman.
CLEAR FRAMES SHOW A WHITE MALE WAREHOUSE WORKER, YOU DO THE MATH
Prayer Person could be literally anyone – but, voila, it’s Oswald!  But wait, there’s more … 
NO IT CAN NOT BE "ANYONE" FAULTY PREMISE #2

FAULTY PREMISE #3
3.  What conceivable assassination conspiracy would have allowed the patsy who was supposed to be on the sixth floor shooting the President to be standing in full view on the front steps? 
FRAME JOBS ARE NOT PRE PLANNED
ARE YOU SAYING EVERY PERSON EXONERATED BY THE INNOCENCE PROJECT WAS PART OF A VAST PREPLANNED CONSPIRACY? I HIGHLY DOUBT IT BUT THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.
Nevertheless, to Prayer Person advocates, items 1-3 are no hindrance at all (precisely because Conspiracy Logic is essentially anti-logic). 
YOU HAVE STARTED WITH FAULTY LOGIC AND TRIED TO BUILD ON IT.
DO ANY OF YOUR PHOTOS OR FILMS SHOW ANYONE IN THE SIXTH FLOOR WINDOW BEFORE OR IMMEDIATELY AFTER? YOU DONT? WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR VAST CONSPIRACY THAT IT COULDN'T EVEN LURE LEE TO BE LOOKING OUT THIS WINDOW.
But the notion of Oswald inserting Jarman and Norman into his Domino Room Alibi?  Oh, please, that’s completely off the scale of plausibility! 
The only plausible explanation - put it in stone - is that Oswald was eating lunch in the domino room. 
THAT IS CONFIRMED. LEE WAS EATING IN THE DOMINO ROOM.
JARMAN SAID "SOMEONE" WAS IN THERE.
JARMAN WAS WALKING AROUND FIRST FLOOR EATING AND DID NOT STAY IN THE LUNCHROOM.
LEE COULD SEE THE BOYS RETURNING TO REAR DOCK STEPS FROM DOMINO ROOM
THE MOST PLAUSIBLE AND VERIFIABLE.
THIS BY ALL ACOUNTS IS ALSO HIS ALIBI.
CONFIRMED IN HOSTY AND BOOKOUT/FRITZS NOTES.
Of all the aspects of conspiracy theorizing that I regard as laughable, the notion that the TSBD was teeming with conspirators and accessories from Roy Truly to Eddie Piper and everyone in between, while innocent young Oswald was placidly eating a cheese sandwich in the domino room, is one I regard as so self-evidently absurd that I can’t believe intelligent people are even discussing it.
ARE YOU JUST AN IGNORANT ONE BECAUSE YOU ARE DISCUSSING IT AND WRONGLY TOO.

  From my experience as a lawyer,
IS THIS AN APPEAL TO AUTHORITY OR DID YOU HELP OSWALD IN THIS CASE.
this is the sort of explanation people resort to when they are truly (or maybe Truly) desperate. 

YOURS SMACKS OF DESPERATION.
OURS IS DOCUMENTED.
MAYBE START BY READING THE BOOK COUNSELOR.
Or perhaps this was just some citizen seeking a bit of shade who had no connection with the TSBD at all and meant nothing to any of them. 
SORRY FAULTY LOGIC, NO ONE WORMED THEIR WAY UP THROUGH EMPLOYEES.
CAN YOU NAME ANY STRANGERS WHOM DID.
OR POINT OUT ANY STRANGER ON THE STEPS.
REMEMBER ALL EMPLOYEES WERE ASKED ABOUT STRANGERS AND ONLY DANNY ARCE RESPONDED YES.
I forget who it was now, but one of the employees allowed an older man who was having some sort of difficulty to go into the building to get a drink or use the restroom.  That would be my educated guess - that this individual was not mentioned because he or she was of no significance to anyone, which seems far more plausible than the sinister speculation. 
YET ARCE DID.
NEXT.

Do I know Oswald wasn't outside watching the P. parade to a level of ontological certainty?  Of course not. 
WHY NOT. BECAUSE YOU DONT ACCEPT THE EVIDENCE GIVEN YOU.
THAT IS ON YOU COUNSELOR.
I can't know to a level of ontological certainty that he wasn't having his way with a nubile young secretary in the basement or eating a banana on the roof either. 
DO YOU RANDOMLY ASSIST CLIENTS THIS WAY OR DO YOU SEEK EVIDENCE TO ABSOLVE THEM?
ASKING FOR A FRIEND FROM MENSA.
But, yeah, I think I can objectively claim that the conclusion Oswald was upstairs shooting the President is approximately 500,000 times more likely than the conclusion he was outside watching the P. parade.
WARREN COMMISSION TRIED AND FAILED BUT BE MY GUEST.



Cheers, Ed Ledoux
CEO Maui Film

Thnks V.
give me the link to thread and I'll post reply there
Cheers
Ed

posted

Interesting stuff Vinny. One thing is absolutely certain, everyone knows that Prayer Man is a powerful disruption. Clear, strong, and when taken on the whole, strongly suggesting that Oswald was there on the steps. So, either demean the evidence as being unworthy of one's careful attention and follow that up with as convincing a set of rationalizations as one can muster to justify having done so or, on the other hand give that evidence the objective consideration that it obviously deserves. There is no denying that it is there and that one must either face it or turn away. Either way there it sits, festering and asserting itself by virtue of its undeniable existence.

Lance said....

"You're pretending to have a level of scientific certainty that you simply can't have from the available evidence"

My Response in Bold.

I THINK YOU WANT ABSOLUTE PROOF,  AND ALSO A LEGAL CERTAINTY   

"In pure mathematics , however, there is said to be a proof for the existence of absolute truth. A common tactic in mathematical proofs is the use of reductio ad absurdum , in which the statement to be proved is denied as a premise, and then that premise is shown to lead to a contradiction."

 

HOW ABOUT BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT COUNSELOR?

Numerous TSBD employees were on the front steps at the time of the assassination or in the immediate vicinity.  Not everyone recalled everyone else, but their recollections were quite good and paint a solid picture.  Not one person recalled Oswald standing in full view where Prayer Person is standing.
NOT ONE PERSON RECALLED MOLINA WHOM STOOD IN THE GROUP SINCE 12:15!
NOT ONE PERSON NAMED ANY OF THE COLORED MEN ON THE STEPS, ROY LEWIS ETC.
SO SAYING A PERSON WHOM JUST STEPPED OUT ABOUT THE TIME THE CHARISMATIC PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA JOHN FITGERALD KENNEDY AND ADMIRED JACKIE BOUVIER KENNEDY, VICE PRESIDENT AND TEXAN LYNDON BAINES JOHNSON AND HIS VERY POPULAR WIFE LADY BIRD ALONG WITH TEXAS' JOHN CONNELLY AND WIFE NELLIE WERE ASSURED NOT TO NOTICE THE LEAST FAMOUS PERSON IN THE WORLD-AT LEAST TILL 3PM-ONE NEWLY HIRED WAREHOUSE WORKER NOT PERSONALLY KNOWN TO BUT A FEW, A SCRAWNY LEE OSWALD. I DOUBT HIGHLY THEY WOULD, ASK ROY LEWIS.
  Does it seem plausible that not one person said “Gee, I seem to recall the guy you folks think is the assassin standing right there on the steps with us.  Maybe you should look into that, huh?”  But wait, there’s more … 
SURE, THEN THEY WOULD BE RIDICULED AND SAID THEY WERE MISTAKEN AND OR THAT WAS AFTERWARDS OR THEY NEED PSYCHOLOGICAL EXAMINATION OR SO MANY THINGS LIKE PERHAPS THEY WERE HIS LOOK OUT OR EVEN ACCOMPLICE.
BUT DONT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT ASK BUELL WESLEY FRAIZER.
2.  Of all the photos and films taken that day – or that might have been taken that day – Prayer Person appears in precisely one.
WRONG HE IS CLEARLY SEEN IN TWO FILMS WIEGMAN AND DARNELL AND IN TINA TOWNERS FILM THOUGH ONLY FAINT GLIMPSES CAN BE MADE OUT 
It is pure happenstance that there aren’t 15 photos in which Prayer Person is clearly identifiable.
WE HAVE MULTIPLE FRAMES FROM SEVERAL CAMERAS SO YOUR PREMISE IS FAULTY
And in that one photo Prayer Person conveniently appears as such an amorphous blob in the deep shadows that debate continues as to whether said blob is a man or a woman.
CLEAR FRAMES SHOW A WHITE MALE WAREHOUSE WORKER, YOU DO THE MATH
Prayer Person could be literally anyone – but, voila, it’s Oswald!  But wait, there’s more … 
NO IT CAN NOT BE "ANYONE" FAULTY PREMISE #2

FAULTY PREMISE #3
3.  What conceivable assassination conspiracy would have allowed the patsy who was supposed to be on the sixth floor shooting the President to be standing in full view on the front steps? 
FRAME JOBS ARE NOT PRE PLANNED
ARE YOU SAYING EVERY PERSON EXONERATED BY THE INNOCENCE PROJECT WAS PART OF A VAST PREPLANNED CONSPIRACY? I HIGHLY DOUBT IT BUT THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.
Nevertheless, to Prayer Person advocates, items 1-3 are no hindrance at all (precisely because Conspiracy Logic is essentially anti-logic). 
YOU HAVE STARTED WITH FAULTY LOGIC AND TRIED TO BUILD ON IT. 
DO ANY OF YOUR PHOTOS OR FILMS SHOW ANYONE IN THE SIXTH FLOOR WINDOW BEFORE OR IMMEDIATELY AFTER? YOU DONT? WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR VAST CONSPIRACY THAT IT COULDN'T EVEN LURE LEE TO BE LOOKING OUT THIS WINDOW.
But the notion of Oswald inserting Jarman and Norman into his Domino Room Alibi?  Oh, please, that’s completely off the scale of plausibility!  
The only plausible explanation - put it in stone - is that Oswald was eating lunch in the domino room. 
THAT IS CONFIRMED. LEE WAS EATING IN THE DOMINO ROOM. 
JARMAN SAID "SOMEONE" WAS IN THERE.
JARMAN WAS WALKING AROUND FIRST FLOOR EATING AND DID NOT STAY IN THE LUNCHROOM.
LEE COULD SEE THE BOYS RETURNING TO REAR DOCK STEPS FROM DOMINO ROOM 
THE MOST PLAUSIBLE AND VERIFIABLE.
THIS BY ALL ACOUNTS IS ALSO HIS ALIBI.
CONFIRMED IN HOSTY AND BOOKOUT/FRITZS NOTES.
Of all the aspects of conspiracy theorizing that I regard as laughable, the notion that the TSBD was teeming with conspirators and accessories from Roy Truly to Eddie Piper and everyone in between, while innocent young Oswald was placidly eating a cheese sandwich in the domino room, is one I regard as so self-evidently absurd that I can’t believe intelligent people are even discussing it.
ARE YOU JUST AN IGNORANT ONE BECAUSE YOU ARE DISCUSSING IT AND WRONGLY TOO.

  From my experience as a lawyer,
IS THIS AN APPEAL TO AUTHORITY OR DID YOU HELP OSWALD IN THIS CASE.
this is the sort of explanation people resort to when they are truly (or maybe Truly) desperate. 

YOURS SMACKS OF DESPERATION.
OURS IS DOCUMENTED.
MAYBE START BY READING THE BOOK COUNSELOR.
Or perhaps this was just some citizen seeking a bit of shade who had no connection with the TSBD at all and meant nothing to any of them. 
SORRY FAULTY LOGIC, NO ONE WORMED THEIR WAY UP THROUGH EMPLOYEES.
CAN YOU NAME ANY STRANGERS WHOM DID.
OR POINT OUT ANY STRANGER ON THE STEPS.
REMEMBER ALL EMPLOYEES WERE ASKED ABOUT STRANGERS AND ONLY DANNY ARCE RESPONDED YES.
I forget who it was now, but one of the employees allowed an older man who was having some sort of difficulty to go into the building to get a drink or use the restroom.  That would be my educated guess - that this individual was not mentioned because he or she was of no significance to anyone, which seems far more plausible than the sinister speculation. 
YET ARCE DID.
NEXT.

Do I know Oswald wasn't outside watching the P. parade to a level of ontological certainty?  Of course not. 
WHY NOT. BECAUSE YOU DONT ACCEPT THE EVIDENCE GIVEN YOU. 
THAT IS ON YOU COUNSELOR.
I can't know to a level of ontological certainty that he wasn't having his way with a nubile young secretary in the basement or eating a banana on the roof either.  
DO YOU RANDOMLY ASSIST CLIENTS THIS WAY OR DO YOU SEEK EVIDENCE TO ABSOLVE THEM?
ASKING FOR A FRIEND FROM MENSA.
But, yeah, I think I can objectively claim that the conclusion Oswald was upstairs shooting the President is approximately 500,000 times more likely than the conclusion he was outside watching the P. parade.
WARREN COMMISSION TRIED AND FAILED BUT BE MY GUEST.