Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

First topic message reminder :

Mrs Madden worked in the Identification Division of NOPD. She was interviewed by SA Quigley on 11/26/63. She advised that her file on Oswald’s arrest held no information about anyone named “Hidell”.


Mrs Madden FBI Interview

On Nov 30, SA Quigley wrote another report on the August arrest. Copied into this report was another report dated August 12 authored by Sergeant Horace Austin and Patrolman Warren Roberts of the Intelligence Division. They had been among a number of cops who were the first to interrogate Oswald.

What is interesting about this is that one section and one section only of this report (which runs many pages), is incorrectly formatted. It is that part of the August 12 report which mentions that “Hidell’s” signature appears on a local FPCC card allegedly in Oswald’s possession at the time of the arrest.

This is clear evidence that this part of the report was altered in some way at the time it was copied into Quigley's report.


Quigley Report Incorporating Joint Austin-Roberts Report

I believe something similar happened when Qugley's August arrest report was incorporated into Kaack's report.

zangarathepatsy wrote:A. Hidell is an anagram for Delilah. Delilah was a bartender who worked for Ruby. It is believed she was connected to intelligence operations. She married a man who then killed her ten days later. Is it true? I don't know but its in the Garrison files.

Tom Jones?...he just couldn't take anymore.

I appreciate your response. It is not one of the major focusses of my research. I want to make a point here, I just read about that a few weeks ago and the documentation i read said ten days. Now the discrepency is not a mistake. These types of contradictory reports are all over the JFK assassination. If you go back to WWII and the O.S.S. read "Doctrine Re: Rumors" It outlines all the strategies on how to spread a successful rumor. One of the points is to "spread contradictory reports in order to keep the public confused and bewildered." The mere existence of this forum is a direct result of this tactic.

Zangarathepatsy:

"The mere existence of this forum is a direct result of this tactic."




Mr. Z, respectfully I would think some of the other members here might beg to differ including me. How could you possibly know the reason for the existence of this forum?

zangarathepatsy wrote:I appreciate your response. It is not one of the major focusses of my research. I want to make a point here, I just read about that a few weeks ago and the documentation i read said ten days. Now the discrepency is not a mistake. These types of contradictory reports are all over the JFK assassination. If you go back to WWII and the O.S.S. read "Doctrine Re: Rumors" It outlines all the strategies on how to spread a successful rumor. One of the points is to "spread contradictory reports in order to keep the public confused and bewildered." The mere existence of this forum is a direct result of this tactic.

Nice wriggle.

zangarathepatsy wrote:I appreciate your response. It is not one of the major focusses of my research. I want to make a point here, I just read about that a few weeks ago and the documentation i read said ten days. Now the discrepency is not a mistake. These types of contradictory reports are all over the JFK assassination. If you go back to WWII and the O.S.S. read "Doctrine Re: Rumors" It outlines all the strategies on how to spread a successful rumor. One of the points is to "spread contradictory reports in order to keep the public confused and bewildered." The mere existence of this forum is a direct result of this tactic.

Absolutely there are contradictory reports - but even more prevalent are contradictory claims about valid reports. 

Researchers have a choice. Accept a claim without further checks because it confirms a pet theory or bias, or keep looking to find the original/best sources. It is researchers spreading such rumors/false or incorrect claims that do the most damage, even if sometimes they are not the ones making them up.

Thanks to Malcolm Blunt

Thank you Bart. They were still obfuscating regarding Ana J Hidell. The original FBI report never said "Ana J Hidell. It just said "Ana Hidell". That is because whoever typed up the handwritten notes mistook "An A Hidell" for "Ana Hidell. The "J" crept in later. 

What IS interesting in this document is that is says nothing about anyone in NO fingering Hidell as being an Oswald alias. It merely says that an "Alex J Hidell" was reported as distributing handbills. And that was 100% true. A person was reported as handing out FPCC handbills on a wharf. The handbills were stamped in the Hidell name. There was NOTHING NIL NADA at that time linking that name or that person with Oswald.

This forum, as I have said before, was made to have a place that had the singular aim of getting the case reopened, and not exist as other forums do, merely to spin wheels and sell theories. Initially, and for a while, I was virtually the sole poster - so as "Corey" says with his website, I used it to store my own research.

Oswald's military intelligence file - Hidell ID

Thanks to Malcolm Blunt

Thanks to Malcolm Blunt

greg parker wrote:Thank you Bart. They were still obfuscating regarding Ana J Hidell. The original FBI report never said "Ana J Hidell. It just said "Ana Hidell". That is because whoever typed up the handwritten notes mistook "An A Hidell" for "Ana Hidell. The "J" crept in later. 

What IS interesting in this document is that is says nothing about anyone in NO fingering Hidell as being an Oswald alias. It merely says that an "Alex J Hidell" was reported as distributing handbills. And that was 100% true. A person was reported as handing out FPCC handbills on a wharf. The handbills were stamped in the Hidell name. There was NOTHING NIL NADA at that time linking that name or that person with Oswald.

Yep, spot on Greg.

Oswald spoke of a Hidell and having made contact with him in New Orleans. There is absolutely zero evidence to suggest that prior to the assassination the authorities ever thought that Oswald and Hidell were one in the same. Not one scrap, zip, nada naught.

Bart, 

according to this, the bartender's name was Frankie Lynn Hidell. 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/9183-possible-origin-of-hidell-name/

The thread has a theory on the Hidell name that I had forgotten about - but made sense to me at the time. "Hidd el" is Hungarian for "believe me" or "trust me". (the original poster said "believe in" but I think he misunderstood -- it is actually "believe/trust I (me)" 

Makes sense to me mainly because one of the names on the pistol order was "DF Drittal" (the person "vouching" for Hidell).  I believe this stands for Deinst fur drittal" - German for "service for third parties". In other words, the pistol was being ordered on behalf of someone else. 

If the DF Drittal meaning is right, then the "AJ" initials may stand for words in Hungarian that add further meaning to "hidd el".

Does anyone give any credence to the statement by Nagell, in 'The Man who knew too much', that HIDELL was made up from the initials for the South Korean Intelligence Agency HID and the ending of his own name ELL. Strange that Nagell, when arrested in El Paso had ID with Hidell as the holder. Could he have been using it as well?

Peter Johnsen wrote:Does anyone give any credence to the statement by Nagell, in 'The Man who knew too much', that HIDELL was made up from the initials for the South Korean Intelligence Agency HID and the ending of his own name ELL. Strange that Nagell, when arrested in El Paso had ID with Hidell as the holder. Could he have been using it as well?

Peter,

IIRC, the Nagell Hidell card was alleged to have been added to the story of his belongings years after the fact. I could be wrong but from memory his Attorney may have been involved in the deception.

Mick Purdy wrote:

greg parker wrote:Thank you Bart. They were still obfuscating regarding Ana J Hidell. The original FBI report never said "Ana J Hidell. It just said "Ana Hidell". That is because whoever typed up the handwritten notes mistook "An A Hidell" for "Ana Hidell. The "J" crept in later. 

What IS interesting in this document is that is says nothing about anyone in NO fingering Hidell as being an Oswald alias. It merely says that an "Alex J Hidell" was reported as distributing handbills. And that was 100% true. A person was reported as handing out FPCC handbills on a wharf. The handbills were stamped in the Hidell name. There was NOTHING NIL NADA at that time linking that name or that person with Oswald.

Yep, spot on Greg.

Oswald spoke of a Hidell and having made contact with him in New Orleans. There is absolutely zero evidence to suggest that prior to the assassination the authorities ever thought that Oswald and Hidell were one in the same. Not one scrap, zip, nada naught.

I should add just for accuracy sake that it was alleged that Oswald spoke of Hidell as another party. This was written up in police reports from New Orleans

Mick Purdy wrote:

Peter Johnsen wrote:Does anyone give any credence to the statement by Nagell, in 'The Man who knew too much', that HIDELL was made up from the initials for the South Korean Intelligence Agency HID and the ending of his own name ELL. Strange that Nagell, when arrested in El Paso had ID with Hidell as the holder. Could he have been using it as well?

Peter,

IIRC, the Nagell Hidell card was alleged to have been added to the story of his belongings years after the fact. I could be wrong but from memory his Attorney may have been involved in the deception.

From a previous post by Greg:




This was found in the files on Nagell held by his lawyer, Bernard Fensterwald,  and I believe, found by Dick Russell.

Here's the thing. It is an EXACT copy of Oswald's own card - except for the photo and signature.

Oswald's card was NOT published in the Warren Commission volumes. It was not published anywhere until the publication of Judy Bonner's book, "Investigation of a Homicide" in 1969 and this pristine copy (the original was ruined by FBI tests) was given to her by Det. Jerry Hill.

I think Nagell's card is pretty obviously a photo or photocopy of what was published by Bonner, with the photo and signature being replaced. This would not have been difficult. They did not even bother changing the number of the card.

The only real uncertainty is whether Nagell made this poor copy, or whether it was that huge fraud, Fensterwald.

Fake evidence was produced by the authorities to help "prove" their case.

But it didn't stop there. Others have followed suit to help "prove" their theories. 

The fake police report showing Oswald and Ruby in a fight, is one such fake, off the top of my head, but there are a number of examples. In fact, the further time marches on, the more fakery is seeping through.  Fake Oswald rings and books at auction and fake witnesses by the dozen, some supported by more fake evidence. 

No one cares any more. It's a free-for-all and the fake with the most followers is the winner.

This place is the last bastion of sanity; the last place where facts actually matter.

Peter Johnsen wrote:Does anyone give any credence to the statement by Nagell, in 'The Man who knew too much', that HIDELL was made up from the initials for the South Korean Intelligence Agency HID and the ending of his own name ELL. 

According to Nagell, Oswald was issued the pseudonyms of "Aleksei Hidel" and "Albert". No evidence exists that Oswald ever used either.  In any event. the name "Hidell" exists in the real world and doesn't need to be made up of anything. 

Strange that Nagell, when arrested in El Paso had ID with Hidell as the holder. Could he have been using it as well?

Peter, there is no evidence that he ever had such a card at that time. The card was found much later in the files of his lawyer, Bud Fensterwald - a person I'd trust as far as I could through him. The card btw, was in Oswald's name - not "Hidell".

I looks to me like a bad photocopy with photo and some of the info taken out and changed. 


I do have many issues with Nagell's story.

1. What sort of genius gets arrested to have an alibi? There are many many ways to have an airtight alibi without going to jail. There are many ways to avoid being compelled into doing something without getting arrested.

2. There is much evidence that what he did was more a cry for help than anything else.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48775#relPageId=13&tab=page This is a surprisingly even-handed assessment of all the main claims.

2. Oswald was not part of any assassination plot.

3. Oswald was never in Mexico City. 

But I do owe you thanks for posting this. It forced me to have another look at a few things and as a result, I have discovered yet another possibility of the origins of the "Hidell" name. And it ties back to the White Russians. I don't want to post about it yet until I consider how best to deal with the information. All I will say for now is that the evidence is circumstantial but compelling as it shows that there was indeed an "AJ Hidell" - but not in the US. This AJ Hidell happened to be born in the same Eastern Bloc city as one of the Dallas White Russians.

When I first read of Nagell, I regarded it as an intrusion into the case - just like JVB or James Files.

People who present "evidence" that does clear up anything in the case is not evidence. If someone came forward and claimed to have been there, I don't want to hear further tales or anecdotes about the characters, I want substantive information to materially moves the case forward... not lead us into yet another rabbit hole.

We already have sufficient misinformation out there. We need something else now.

From the Harry Livingstone Archive. Thanks to Malcolm Blunt. Scans by me.