Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

First topic message reminder :

Last April I spoke about the second floor lunch room encounter as part of my Prayer Man presentation at the 14th DPUK seminar in Canterbury. Afterwards I wasn't happy with that segment to which Barry Keane suggested I'd write it up, which I did not realising the task that lay ahead.
 
At the link below I tried to cram every bit of info in there that is available on this alleged encounter.


There will be an interactive presentation to follow.
 
http://www.prayer-ma...room-encounter/

Just when you thought there is bugger all else to be found, here comes Dennis Morissette who supplied me with 4 copies of The Houston Post.

If anyone thinks Lovelady is still standing on those steps while Baker is running towards the TSBD is about to get a reality check.

BNL did not like Leroy....but it is the police officer running for the rail road yards that gets a mention.
Now then if he were still standing on them steps do you really think he would make a mention of Smith instead of Baker......I think not.


This whole debate about Lovelady still standing on those steps at that time is dead and buried.

Move on!


Full size:
https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/HoustonPostNov231963-9.jpg

Another nugget, this time its Bill Alexander, who by all means is not a very pleasant person. I mean he went on the media telling Earl Warren should be hanged.........which cost him his job.

But here he says 
6 witnesses that can attest to Leroy being inside the TSBD up to ten mins after!!!!
Who would that be Bill?

A policeman shook Oz down.........right.
Full size pic: https://i1.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/HoustonPostNov231963-10-.jpg

The 2nd floor clusterfuck being questioned in 1976
Shadows of Doubt- the Warren Commission Cover Up by Robert Meunier.

http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/62-Referrals-1-41C-30-low.jpg

Thomas Kelley's Dec 5th report points at a re-enactment time of 2:25
Muhahahahahaha

2:25 minus 30 second lunchroom encounter
Less than 2 minutes
Avoiding of course

JACK DOUGHERTY
THREE BLIND MICE
JUNIOR, WILLIAMS, NORMAN
ADAMS AND STYLES
OTIS WILLIAMS
AND OF COURSE
TRULY AND BAKER

And my favorite stair monitor...

MRS GARNER.

HOW IS A MAN RACING DOWN FROM A TOP FLOOR WITHOUT DRAWING THE ATTENTION OF THOSE WHO COULD CORROBORATE SUCH


Magic shoes silly!

Ed. Ledoux wrote:2:25 minus 30 second lunchroom encounter
Less than 2 minutes
Avoiding of course

JACK DOUGHERTY
THREE BLIND MICE
JUNIOR, WILLIAMS, NORMAN
ADAMS AND STYLES
OTIS WILLIAMS
AND OF COURSE
TRULY AND BAKER

And my favorite stair monitor...

MRS GARNER.

HOW IS A MAN RACING DOWN FROM A TOP FLOOR WITHOUT DRAWING THE ATTENTION OF THOSE WHO COULD CORROBORATE SUCH


Magic shoes silly!

Think about this...

I show in the First to Second Addendum video the entire 90 second walk-through on the Secret Service reenactment film. I noted how little time was devoted to Oswald coming down the stairs. They make it look as if he just came down one floor.

In this tiny clip below from the video, you see the actor staring to go down the stairs from the sixth floor. It takes him about 3 seconds to make it halfway down the flight of stairs (where you see him disappear from view). So assume it takes him another three seconds to get to the door leading to the fifth floor landing. Not accounting for any time to traverse the landing on each floor, that would be a total of 24 seconds just going down the four flights of stairs, time which is not accounted for in the SS film. Say we assume it takes 4 seconds to travel across each landing, that adds another 12 seconds (for the fifth, fourth, and third floor landings) for a total of 36 seconds to make it down from the sixth floor before he exits onto the second floor. 

This gives him much less time on the sixth floor to do everything they said he did.

How many ways can you spell Bullshit?

From the same SS re-enactment, it almost takes 5 secs to open, walk through and have the door close behind you.... FF 1:18

Ed. Ledoux wrote:2:25 minus 30 second lunchroom encounter
Less than 2 minutes
Avoiding of course

JACK DOUGHERTY
THREE BLIND MICE
JUNIOR, WILLIAMS, NORMAN
ADAMS AND STYLES
OTIS WILLIAMS
AND OF COURSE
TRULY AND BAKER

And my favorite stair monitor...

MRS GARNER.

HOW IS A MAN RACING DOWN FROM A TOP FLOOR WITHOUT DRAWING THE ATTENTION OF THOSE WHO COULD CORROBORATE SUCH


Magic shoes silly!

Yes Ed but according to Richard Gilbride there are mundane explanations for all this.............

barto wrote:From the same SS re-enactment, it almost takes 5 secs to open, walk through and have the door close behind you.... FF 1:18

You have to add 30-35 seconds minimum to the Secret Service reenactment to account for the time needed to make it down the four flights of stairs. That time is missing in the video. That puts the total time around 120-125 seconds, minimum.
 
But it never happened in the first place.

So these great observations about the reenactment video beg the question: What was the production value or reasoning behind having a guy in a suit walk at a pace so slow that deceptive editing was required to make it time out? 

The obvious answer is lack of confidence in their theory. There was the concern that putting a guy in work pants and a T-shirt and having him sprint through the building, yet stash the gun on his way, and come huffing and puffing into the lunch room to beat the clock would look like what it was, a fiction. They had to have a cool, calm, and collected patsy. They went with the suit and some movie magic.

Jake Sykes wrote:So these great observations about the reenactment video beg the question: What was the production value or reasoning behind having a guy in a suit walk at a pace so slow that deceptive editing was required to make it time out? 

The obvious answer is lack of confidence in their theory. There was the concern that putting a guy in work pants and a T-shirt and having him sprint through the building, yet stash the gun on his way, and come huffing and puffing into the lunch room to beat the clock would look like what it was, a fiction. They had to have a cool, calm, and collected patsy. They went with the suit and some movie magic.

Precisely, Jake. It was all magic. Hocus fucking pocus. Good magicians distract your attention away from the sleight-of-hand tricks they pull off. Lone mutters rely on this to sell their cheap, dog shit ideas.
 
The minute-and-a-half that the Warren Commission ultimately came up to explain the second floor lunchroom timeline sounds so official. When you look at all of the times for the different scenarios laid out in tables, the whole thing is sterile and clinical. Just a bunch of numbers to narcotize the senses.
 
When I did the First to Second Series "Warren Commission Story" video, I had a new thought as I traced out Oswald's assumed path. I realized how many doors Oswald would have had to go through just to get into the second floor lunchroom. If any of them were closed, that could add precious seconds to the timeline as Oswald worked his way through them.
 
In a later video where I was focusing on how the story had evolved to have Oswald sitting at a table, I made a humorous comment as played the Secret Service film clip how Oswald had gone from the sixth floor to the second floor in just 6 seconds!
 
I didn't realize the full impact of this at the time.
 
After I finished the video series, I had lingering thoughts about how unrealistic the 90 second sixth-floor-to-second-floor trip really is. So I made an Addendum video to further illustrate this, complete with countdown timer.
 
But it wasn't until yesterday that I fully recognized the sleight-of-hand used by the Secret Service in the reenactment film. It is so easy to overlook because our focus is elsewhere.
 
While we see the actor plodding along to reassure us that our find-and-punish-the-guilty, marinated-in-credibility betters have figured this all out, thank you very much, the time the actor is on the stairs effectively covers one floor, not four floors.
 
In the "Now Sitting on Second" video, I noted the film shows the actor taking 6 seconds to begin his decent down the stairs from the sixth floor to the time he emerges onto the second floor landing.
 
Yesterday, I noted how the Secret Service film clearly shows it takes 3 seconds to descend one half a flight of stairs, so this confirms my 6 second observation in the "Now Sitting on Second" video. In other words, it takes 6 seconds on the stairs. So the Secret Service lopped off 18 seconds in floor decent time (sixth to fifth, fifth to fourth, fourth to third), and I think it is reasonable to assume it would take 4 seconds to traverse the landing on each floor, so that adds another 12 seconds to conservatively add 30 seconds to Oswald's run timeline.
 
Not being able to refute this clear visual evidence, some lone mutter douchebag might simply say "OK, if we add the time for the stairs, that just means Oswald moved faster on the sixth floor to balance it out, because, shit, 90 seconds is a physical fucking law! Bugliosi, he said so!"
 
That's what we are reduced to dealing with these worthless JFK assassination bungholes. I ignore them now.
 
With this extended timeline, I would go on to stress another fact we already know: Oswald was reported to be cool, calm and collected when he had his encounter. You can't run down four fucking flights of stairs and look like you just got out of bed. Your pulse and breathing would be elevated and you'd be a little flushed immediately following the the run, and the Warren Commission allows for mere seconds from the time he entered the lunchroom to the time he was confronted.

If you believe what the Warren Commission says on this, you eat bullshit. And enjoy it.

Stan wrote:With this extended timeline, I would go on to stress another fact we already know: Oswald was reported to be cool, calm and collected when he had his encounter. You can't run down four fucking flights of stairs and look like you just got out of bed. Your pulse and breathing would be elevated and you'd be a little flushed immediately following the the run, and the Warren Commission allows for mere seconds from the time he entered the lunchroom to the time he was confronted.

I think that description is them sticking to the cool calm professional assassin theme first put out by Wade. 

But it's amazing isn't it?

Cool and calm for Truly and Baker.

Looking like a maniac for Bledsoe on the bus.

Back to cool and calm despite witnesses looking at him at the Tippit scene.

Then looking half crazed lunatic and half rabbit in headlights for Brewer.

But oops. McDonald initially describes him as cool and calm and giving no trouble (media interview) before later turning him into a caged tiger.

I think Lee must had some of that potion I've seen Bugs drink in those old cartoons that randomly turned him into "Mr Hyde".

greg parker wrote:

Stan wrote:With this extended timeline, I would go on to stress another fact we already know: Oswald was reported to be cool, calm and collected when he had his encounter. You can't run down four fucking flights of stairs and look like you just got out of bed. Your pulse and breathing would be elevated and you'd be a little flushed immediately following the the run, and the Warren Commission allows for mere seconds from the time he entered the lunchroom to the time he was confronted.

I think that description is them sticking to the cool calm professional assassin theme first put out by Wade. 

But it's amazing isn't it?

Cool and calm for Truly and Baker.

Looking like a maniac for Bledsoe on the bus.

Back to cool and calm despite witnesses looking at him at the Tippit scene.

Then looking half crazed lunatic and half rabbit in headlights for Brewer.

But oops. McDonald initially describes him as cool and calm and giving no trouble (media interview) before later turning him into a caged tiger.

I think Lee must had some of that potion I've seen Bugs drink in those old cartoons that randomly turned him into "Mr Hyde".

I think they were going for psychopath look, Greg. Being a psychopath is very flexible when you're making up shit about someone. Think Tony Perkins.

Edited due to unsupported beliefs that have no place here.

Roy was clueless as to Baker's sighting.
I can empathize with Roy.
While about to testify, Truly finds out that Baker is claiming he saw someone move as Baker looked through the window in the door, leading to a hallway, which ends in a lunchroom.


Look at where exactly Baker would need to walk.
See a problem.
At top of the stairs he would need to swing wide...
Impossible. Check the boxes on the floor.




Roy then testifies. Can you imagine his state of mind?
We can read that testimony.
His testimony could give more detail

.TRULY. That is right.
And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.
Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb?
Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.
If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here.
Mr. BELIN. All right.

This is bullshit.
The films show the limo rounding the corner with ease.
Tina Towner proves Truly is full of shit.
The limo doesn't take a 120° turn.
The limo takes a normal 90° turn.
The limo does not hit the island.
The limo turns and drives down Elm  with smoothness and grace.
No jerky lefy swing too wide too late...or whatever Truly has foisted upon the public with this disinformation
Truly is describing exactly what the OTHER FILM folks say they watched.

Is Truly the root of this. He dropped this limo bomb into psyche everywhere. They believe they actually watched another zapruder but with crappy driving.
Or did they show Truly this OTHER FILM
Truly now thinks this was what he 'witnessed'

Regardless the limo never faultered in the turn, see Towner etc.

Cheers, Ed

Truly:
I was trying to show the officer the pathway up, where the elevators--I mean where the stairways continued.



Like the third or fourth floor ??

Mr. DULLES. May I ask you a question?
Do you know why it was that the officer didn't follow you up the stairs, but instead was distracted, as it were, and went with Lee Harvey Oswald into the lunchroom?
Mr. TRULY. I never knew until a day or two ago that he said he saw a movement, saw a man going away from him.
Mr. DULLES. As he was going up the stairs?
Mr. TRULY. As he got to the second floor landing. While I was going around, he saw a movement.
Mr. DULLES. And he followed that?
Mr. TRULY. That is right

I wonder if Roy was asked a few more questions about this

The door was closed when Baker (and Truly) hit the landing. For Baker to glimpse Oswald through the door window Oswald either 1) had to have entered the vestibule and waited by the window then tuned left to enter the lunchroom or 2) had initially gone right down the passageway then turned left to go back to the lunchroom or 3) entered the office area and then backtracked to the lunchroom. None of these seem likely for a fleeing assassin who knows someone is coming up the stairs. One assumes he went through the door to escape whoever is coming up the stairs. Makes no sense.

Also Baker must have not turned immediately to the stairs up to the 3rd floor but have proceeded to the office door. If he was following Truly again makes no sense.

"If he was following Truly again makes no sense."

It makes no sense to anyone except perhaps a multiple-degreed painter.

To anyone else having a few working brain cells: no sense.

I do not see how the Second Floor Encounter can be more dead than this. To keep hanging onto it in the face of evidence (as opposed to hearsay) defies logic.

But then, if God had intended for us to...

Terry W. Martin wrote:"If he was following Truly again makes no sense."
It makes no sense to anyone except perhaps a multiple-degreed painter.

It would, and even with low voc paint ...

This is what good journos do!
They ask the right questions, just like they did with Oswald's legal rights, they question the 2nd floor lunchroom fairy tale with the very little info that is available at that time
St__Louis_Post_Dispatch_Tue__Nov_26__1963 

Got bored and went over to the Foo to see if Alan Ford—just about the only member there who doesn't have his head up his ass—had posted anything today. I saw this from some dipshit who goes by the moniker LR Trotter and who uses Comic Sans, preferred font for emasculated pussies:   
 
The presented evidence of a hoax regarding the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter appears to me to be twofold, slim and none.
 
Fortunately, things that appear to nincompoops don't matter much to critical thinking people, do they?   
 
Not seeing someone, especially someone mobile, does not prove that they were not there, and likewise, not witnessing an event is not proof that it did not happen.

Nor is not seeing someone proof that they were there, nor is not witnessing an event proof that it did happen.
 
Eyewitnesses and participants have given statements/testimony that indicates that the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter did occur
 
And eyewitnesses and participants have given even more statement/testimony that indicates the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter did not occur.
 
and I do not know of any reliable eyewitness testimony/statement that is seen as confirmation that it did not happen.

I know of a plethora of reliable eyewitness statements and accounts that can be construed as strong evidence that it did not happen. To wit:

Marrion Baker's First Affidavit, 11.22.1963
As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to that man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here."
 
FBI Report by Bookhout & Hosty, 11.22.1963 (dictated 11.23.1963)
Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building.
 
London Free Press, 11.22.1963
As the presidential limousine sped to the hospital, the police dragnet went into action. Hicks said just about that time, Oswald apparently came out of the front door of the red-bricked warehouse. A policeman asked him where he was going. He said he wanted to see what the excitement was all about. 
 
The Dallas Morning News, 11.23.1963
He said Truly and an officer ran into the building. In a storage room on the first floor, the officer, gun drawn, spotted Oswald. "Does this man work here?" the officer reportedly asked Truly.
 
New York Herald Tribune, 11.23.1963
Mr. Campbell said, "Shortly after the shooting we raced back into the building. We had been outside watching the parade. We saw him (Oswald) in a small storage room on the ground floor. Then we noticed he was gone.
 
Report on Officer’s Duties by Marvin Johnson
Officer Baker and the building manager then went to a stairway and started up the stairs to search the building. On about the 4th floor Officer Baker apprehended a man that was walking away from the stairway on that floor. Officer Baker started to search the man, but the building manager stated that the man was an employee of the company and was known to him. Officer Baker released the man and continued his search of the building. Officer Baker later identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man seen on the 4th floor of the Texas Book Depository.
 
Warren Commission Testimony of Harry D. Holmes, 4.2.1964
Mr. Holmes: …he talked about this commotion and went out to see what it was about.
…
Mr. Belin: By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
Mr. Holmes: He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. Belin: He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. Holmes: Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. Belin: Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. Holmes: First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.
 
Will Fritz Handwritten notes (Transcription of Contemporaneous Interrogation Notes of Bookhout)
claims 2nd floor Coke when
off came in
to 1st floor had lunch
out with Bill Shelley in
front
lft wk opinion nothing be
done that day etc.

Any attempt at libeling deceased persons as liars is not, in my opinion, a sufficient presentation of actual proof.
 
You know what they say about opinions: they're like assholes—everybody has one. You can keep yours, Trotter.

A second update has been applied to the http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Anatomy%20of%20the%20second%20floor%20lunch%20room%20encounter%20Aug%2027%202017-by_Bart%20Kamp.pdf 

A mirror of this paper is available at the Dealey Plaza UK Website. It has been made by Bernard Wilds the site's webmaster. Many thanks Bernard!!!
http://dealeyplazauk.org.uk/pdfArticles/Anatomy%20of%20the%20second%20floor%20lunch%20room%20encounter%20Aug%2027%202017-by_Bart%20Kamp.pdf  

I have added
 St. Louis Post Dispatch article from Nov.26 1963 added on page 8.
 Medicine Hat News newspaper article added to “Research history….” page 10.
 Link to newspaper article from The Houston Post (Nov. 23rd) with Billy Lovelady’s remarks added. Page 30.
 Norman Redlich memo (3 pages) discussing the elevators added to “The Stairs and The Elevators” chapter, pages 50-52. Thanks to Malcolm Blunt for this!
 Text added to page 53, in the chapter “Did Truly Walk Ahead Of Baker”, with regards to the Secret Service agents taking statements of the TSBD employees in early Dec. 1963.
 Also added in the re-enactment chapter I added an article by the Dallas Morning News on page 118.
 FBI re-enactment photo added, from Robin Unger, page 119.
 Document of Thomas J. Kelley added with regards to the Secret Service re-enactment on page 120.
 Set of FBI re-enactment photos added, which I managed to score at the Holland McCoombs collection. Added these, as they are rare and have not been seen before by many. Pages 122-126.
 Photo added of Marrion Baker alongside with fellow DPD officers and John Sherman Cooper in Wa. Page 129.